AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I guess the only issue there is that ward saves are Nurgle's thing, and GW likes to keep AoS Daemons distinct from one another. It's definitely the simplest and most lore-accurate way to improve the army though. 

Nurgle has that juicy 5+ ward save on everything. I would say that still leaves room for a 6+ on only demons in other Chaos armies. If even a dumb skeleton can get a 6+ ward, I don't think we should be too precious about handing them out to "supernatural" entities.

[azdimy]

12 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Nurgle has that juicy 5+ ward save on everything. I would say that still leaves room for a 6+ on only demons in other Chaos armies. If even a dumb skeleton can get a 6+ ward, I don't think we should be too precious about handing them out to "supernatural" entities.

My thinking as well. Plus 6 being Slaanesh number, it fits the lore 😉

[Jaskier]

A 6+ ward would be alike to Daughters of Khaine, which would fit like a glove given the two are fierce rivals. I can almost see that happening for that reason alone - I've long been a proponent of Slaanesh having an 'escalating' table to further drive home the whole 'perverted mirror' theme of Slaanesh with regards to aelves. Our Heralds already have a 5++, so other Daemons having a 6++ would be consistent (I don't think the 5++ for all our daemons will ever happen.)

The other thing I've thought is that the Locus of Diversion could even be reworked into a -1 to-wound ability that functions the same way Tzeentch's Locus does (i.e. only in combat.) Slaanesh should be vulnerable to shooting but have extreme speed to compensate, though once in combat their nightmarish seduction takes hold and impairs those trying to harm them. 

Ultimately, we're unlikely to get anything that nice in this update, but it's certainly fun to speculate!

Edited March 31, 2022 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

Does anyone have an estimate on when these White Dwarf entries are written? I know the criticism with the GHB and some books is that they're written so far in advance that they don't touch on as much as they should. I would hope White Dwarf has a quicker turnaround.

[Jaskier]

Just now, Enoby said:

Does anyone have an estimate on when these White Dwarf entries are written? I know the criticism with the GHB and some books is that they're written so far in advance that they don't touch on as much as they should. I would hope White Dwarf has a quicker turnaround.

I don't think it'd be a much quicker turnaround than writing the GHBs (if at all) purely because of how involved their global printing/shipping process is, but I don't have any personal knowledge on the matter. 

[Rachmani]

@Enoby
I‘d say it should depict both. Perfectionists honing their craft, summoning demons to do their bidding (for their wims and needs - aka they’d see themselves as masters), and cultists summoning their masters out of desperation or boredom/forbidden excitement. 
 
So keep summoning essential, but tweak it like Nurgle‘s got tweaked from a nice bonus to a solid mechanic.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Rachmani

[Enoby]

20 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I don't think it'd be a much quicker turnaround than writing the GHBs (if at all) purely because of how involved their global printing/shipping process is, but I don't have any personal knowledge on the matter. 

That'd be a shame - I've written magazines before and they usually have a month's turnaround, but they're much more locally based. I'm unsure if GW's print for magazines is all done in house and then shipped, or if the design is sent to be printed in each country (as magazines are much easier to print than bound books). 

I can hope it's the latter, but it's likely the former. We can only hope that the writer realised Slaanesh's issues before this was created, and it wasn't written at the start of AoS 3...

[Elazar The Glorified]

I personally really love the Depravity mechanic and how it works. I also think it is quite Slaaneshi as in the background lore for both Fantasy and 40k there's always been snippets about the Daemons of Slaanesh being the most active amongst the mortal followers of their god. Every great Slaaneshi character seems to attract a harem of Daemonettes as an example. But, I do see the appeal in Depravity being able to buy gifts to represent Slaanesh's favour if you don't want to summon. For Invaders this could be in the form of a choice of a malus for enemy units to demonstrate the impact of the escalating havoc of Slaaneshi forces in your territory. For Godseekers this could be benefits to action efficiency to represent them picking up a scent of Slaanesh and becoming more frenzied in their desperation to reach the god. So maybe extra movement, an extra move and maybe if you want a big choice of what to spend it on then fighting twice etc. Pretenders you could have loads of fun with and maybe have a table of new titles the Pretender can assume each providing them a further buff as their towering arrogance grows and grows. Those buffs should include something like a bodyguard ward save as the Pretender's followers throw themselves in front of the blades of the enemies etc. 

All of these could be tied to our starting army to stop it getting out of hand too

Edited March 31, 2022 by Elazar The Glorified

[zombiepiratexxx]

From memory White Dwarf is written about 6 months in advance from comments that Lyle has made in the Editorial, obviously I am sure that they can swap some articles in and out as needed. 

In relation to any update I don't think that GW really does rate summoning, I'd love to see changes in Battle Tactics that can be scored by summoned units. Outside of FEC we're the only army that really brings in a lot of units in a game if the Depravity starts to roll, but the things you're going to summon could give away battle tactics but never score you any. I don't think that's totally balanced considering the drawbacks we have to be able to summon in the first place. 

[Elazar The Glorified]

 

8 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

In relation to any update I don't think that GW really does rate summoning, I'd love to see changes in Battle Tactics that can be scored by summoned units. Outside of FEC we're the only army that really brings in a lot of units in a game if the Depravity starts to roll, but the things you're going to summon could give away battle tactics but never score you any. I don't think that's totally balanced considering the drawbacks we have to be able to summon in the first place. 

Beasts of Chaos got a Battle tactic based on holding an objective with a summoned unit so I wouldn't be surprised to see us get something similar for that purpose

Edited March 31, 2022 by Elazar The Glorified

[Popisdead]

So Slaanesh went 5-0 at a tournament?  Leaning heavily into what we know works.  Apparently summoning 800-1000 points per game.   

[Elazar The Glorified]

 

4 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

So Slaanesh went 5-0 at a tournament?  Leaning heavily into what we know works.  Apparently summoning 800-1000 points per game.   

Turns out the rumours of Slaanesh's demise are greatly exaggerated... Again 😂

[azdimy]

Well it doesn t change Slaanesh poor attendance at events. But if a 5-0 win make people bring their hedonites armies to events. I m all for it as it s getting old to be the only Slaanesh player at events

[zombiepiratexxx]

I'd like to have a chance at 5-0 (other than the fact I don't  play tournaments) using just the models in our book though. If it works  for other armies it should work for us, we shouldn't be reliant on other books to bring up the power level. I know many don't want a return to the egregiousness of the first Tome, but somewhere between it and where we are now surely shouldn't be that hard to achieve. 

[Enoby]

4 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

From memory White Dwarf is written about 6 months in advance from comments that Lyle has made in the Editorial, obviously I am sure that they can swap some articles in and out as needed

Thanks for the info. Hopefully they'd have had enough info to go off when they wrote this update then.

My worry is that it'll have been written from the perspective of "oh, maybe Slaanesh will fare better in AoS 3 so we'll be light touch" rather than now where we've seen that AoS 3 didn't help (mostly due to the massive points hikes). If that's the case, we'll likely not see much at all. 

[azdimy]

We all remember too well the last white dwarf update for Slaanesh when everybody was saying the army was busted and we were given a sub faction that could summon twice as much. So yes, this is concerning 

Edited March 31, 2022 by azdimy

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, azdimy said:

We all remember too well the last white dwarf update for Slaanesh when everybody was saying the army was busted and we were given a sub faction that could summon twice as much. So yes, this is concerning 

It's interesting that you mention this actually; it's a perfect encapsulation of the design team half understanding the issue.

On one hand, they heard the complaints about no mortals, and so introduced an entire White Dwarf to try and address this. So that was good.

On the other hand, they hadn't realised just how busted summoning was so it ended up being grossly overpowered.

It was probably the case that they just didn't realise the mechanical implications of Slaanesh but did consciously know what was wrong with the book (lack of mortals). If this next White Dwarf is written like that last one, then I have no clue what it'll include.

[Yoid]

Wards saves make sense to me too, the heralds have it since forever (and all daemons have it in 40k, so is not that rare). Daemons of Slaanesh are mostly naked seductive warriors, the KoS is obviously using his body to look graceful in battle. Even in the 300 movie spartans were depicted as mostly naked perfect warriors. something like having a 5+ ward save but a - (none) armor save would be quite cool and thematic, and different enough from Nurgle as a mechanic, making nurgle still the king of resilience. Twinsouls already explore this concept too, but only when the daemon side is in command with the supernatural reflexes.

I don't see something like this happening because I don't believe in the rule writers being so brave and smart, but something like the Mawtribes rule about being eating or hungry could work. While not in close combat our troops are "moving at daemonic speed", while moving at daemonic speed they have a 5+ ward save. When in close combat they are "figthing with unholy precision", while figthing with unholy precision they have -1 additional rend.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Yoid

[CeleFAZE]

On 3/31/2022 at 3:58 PM, Yoid said:

Wards saves make sense to me too, the heralds have it since forever (and all daemons have it in 40k, so is not that rare). Daemons of Slaanesh are mostly naked seductive warriors, the KoS is obviously using his body to look graceful in battle. Even in the 300 movie spartans were depicted as mostly naked perfect warriors. something like having a 5+ ward save but a - (none) armor save would be quite cool and thematic, and different enough from Nurgle as a mechanic, making nurgle still the king of resilience. Twinsouls already explore this concept too, but only when the daemon side is in command with the supernatural reflexes.

I don't see something like this happening because I don't believe in the rule writers being so brave and smart, but something like the Mawtribes rule about being eating or hungry could work. While not in close combat our troops are "moving at daemonic speed", while moving at daemonic speed they have a 5+ ward save. When in close combat they are "figthing with unholy precision", while figthing with unholy precision they have -1 additional rend.

What I could see is an army wide ability to increase rend on wound rolls of 6, much like a number of 40k melee weapons have. GW seems to really like "critical hit" style rules for Slaanesh, and this would seem likely.

What I'd like to see is movement debuffs and to-hit penalties for opponents being a theme for us. Also a 6" pile-in with no movement towards closest enemy unit requirements, either as an ability for all of our mounted units, or as a command ability or a host ability for godseekers.

I honestly doubt we'll see anything so significant in the White Dwarf however. More likely we'll see a new scroll for the fane that does something insignificant, like -1 bravery to enemy units wholly within 12 of it, and an army wide allegiance ability that gives us something small, like +1 bravery while fighting heroes. Or battle tactics will probably be something like "summon a keeper and make a successful charge with it" and "gain 12 depravity in a single battleshock phase", and our grand strategy will be something like "summon a unit in every one of your movement phases, including the first". So, expecting BoK level rules, as that seems to jive with GW's inability to make rules for us that have any real impact.

[pnkdth]

Interview with the guy who went 5-0.

[pnkdth]

Breakdown of the video (or stuff I picked up on):

• Summon Exalted chariots on a 7 or 9. Aim for big blocks of 20-30 Daemonettes late game.
• Aim to get summons in on T2.
• Think of summoned units how they'll impact the turn after they arrive (8-9s charges ain't reliable).
• Control, control, control. Battle Regiment super important since HoS do not deal with a DT very well.
• Belakor is a bae. Good offence and control ability is great for any chaos army.
• Speed is our armour. Use it to pounce on objective + stall with chaff.
• MSU. Bravery is usually meh so big units of mortals will melt away.
• MSU. Force your opponent to split. You have the speed to frustrate.
• Twinsouls are a trap. Best units are Slickblades, Siggie, and archers.
• Does not rate Glutos either. Not terrible but not amazed.
• Fane is excellent backup and anti-deep strike when combined with summoning.
• Chimera is a dangerous assassin. Fast, MWs, and is an excellent target for Synessa with all out attack (hitting on 3s instead of 4s makes a big difference). Other units such as the Fomoroid and Cockatrice are interesting picks.
• Don't get attached to your units.
• Charge Siggie in! Aggro mindset.
• Slaanesh players should look in other books to extend synergies. Slaanesh on their own is not good.

List composition:

• Lurid Haze for deep strike. Fast, punchy, early DPs.
• Synessa for toolbox and CAs.
• "Only 104 wounds." Speed again, keep out of range and hit HARD. Avoid damage, do not take it on the chin.
• One drop or two drop. Say no to warlord and Lurid Haze artefacts are not worth it.

Might (probably) have missed out on stuff so fill in the gaps if find any!

[Carnith]

While I'm sure this is the way to go 5-0 in the competitive sense, from the casual perspective, I don't want to have to go "half my book is ******, time to go look elsewhere, and all of these are non-starters too for battalions." I want the book to be good enough on its own and that units are just traps. Belakor is fun to bring and is a good piece to have, but ideally the design should be that everything goes well without needing belakor or pulling from 2-3 other books. 

While this white dwarf isn't going to get rid of summoning, I hope it reduces our reliance on it. 

[pnkdth]

2 hours ago, Carnith said:

While I'm sure this is the way to go 5-0 in the competitive sense, from the casual perspective, I don't want to have to go "half my book is ******, time to go look elsewhere, and all of these are non-starters too for battalions." I want the book to be good enough on its own and that units are just traps. Belakor is fun to bring and is a good piece to have, but ideally the design should be that everything goes well without needing belakor or pulling from 2-3 other books. 

While this white dwarf isn't going to get rid of summoning, I hope it reduces our reliance on it. 

At this point, it is what it is. Even though it is a competitive list for a competitive field I think there are useful things to pull from this interview and list. For example, if you remove Belakor you can use those points for control/disruption in other ways. I'm thinking like a unit of Slickblades and Seekers. That way you get a unit which can lock units in place or protect objectives + a hammer with the slickblades.

The Chimera though, has pretty Slaaneshi rules. A light unit which is fast as heck and gift MWs. I'm thinking the Slaaneshi version of the Mutalith/Slaughterbeast.

I have fairly lukewarm expectations for the WD and I do not see the GHB doing much either. On the other hand, they have identified us as a Prime Hunters list. We'll see. For now though, I want to try and think of a list which exclude Belly and work in a two drop army instead. I mean, just because he sees it in this light doesn't mean he's got it all figured out (and said so much himself). Or maybe it is just the first hints of summer which has me in a good mood. 😆

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by pnkdth

[pnkdth]

Building of Mat's list but embraced purist Hedonites I've been toying with this:

Name of the game is hit first or be fast enough to set traps.

Dexc + Siggie support each other with 2x5 seekers disrupting movement. Syn does what you'd expect.

Slickblades serve as, well, a hammer unit while the small Twinsoul unit act a mid-field punch (or more aggressive if need me, 8" movement isn't slow, after all). I was thinking using the Dark Pageant or even a 4th archer unit (for quicker DP gen).

Archers do exactly what you'd expect.

The approach is heavy on the MSU and disruption since the list lack Belakor's shenanigans.

No idea when I can test it out but I wanted to make more concrete suggestion that the generic "I think HoS still have play" take.

And another version with a dual Chimera. No longer a purist HoS list but more of blistering fast list with a good chunk of ranged MWs.

The Chaos Warshrines are Chimeras because warscroll builder does not list Chimeras among BoC units. The grand total of the list is 1985pts and two drop.

Edited April 3, 2022 by pnkdth

[Popisdead]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:36 AM, zombiepiratexxx said:

I'd like to have a chance at 5-0 (other than the fact I don't  play tournaments) using just the models in our book though. 

Yeah I agree and I recall the Facehammer guys saying GW balanced the points at the time with the expectation there would be an open situation with Slaanesh pulling in from StD, etc.  

However,.. that doesn't make sense for why the internal balance is so bad.  What was GW worried about, 3 Keepers and 90 Daemonettes plus Be'Lakor!?!?