AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Nagashfan]

21 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Got a 2k game on Thursday with my Hedonites.Any tips on how to deal with pretifex Nagash ? No allies

Oh wait you said no allies…. I donno Archaon? He’s a hedonite

[Enoby]

Just now, Nagashfan said:

BELAKOR 

I think he's an ally

21 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Got a 2k game on Thursday with my Hedonites.Any tips on how to deal with pretifex Nagash ? No allies

I've only fought Nagash once recently and that was used by a player who'd never played him before so he did nothing. I think an Infernal Enrapturess may actually help in this case due to reroll casts and 9 spells fishing for a double 1 to shut down their usefulness quickly. 

Other than that, Sigvald + Keeper can freak him out, but not kill him. Glutos is probably too risky due to tankiness being negated by hand of dust. That said, Nagash isn't absolutely amazing in combat (not bad by any stretch but not Archaon), so you can keep him still with a couple of tanky units. 

Twinsouls pretty nice against PE as ignore rend won't help against them. Nagash may be ignoring -1 rend but he only has 16 wounds - Synessa or a lucky Keeper may rattle his bones with some MWs. 

Of course Archaon can probably just one shot him, but even though he's not an ally I reckon he's not a wanted answer.

[Jaskier]

Petrifex Nagash is a tough cookie as he can sit on a 2+ (Mystic Shield) re-rolling 1s and ignoring -1 Rend on top of a 4++ against mortal wounds, then there are lore spells and so on which make him even more of a pain (like Protection of Nagash.)  Depending on what you take there's a very real chance you won't be able to really kill him without seriously overcommitting to it. 

Honestly your best bet may well be to try and play around him and focus on everything else. Ossiarchs aren't in a great spot after the 3.0 changes to how their commands work, and they are an elite army even before accounting for roughly half the army sitting in one model. Nagash is terrifying but unlike a Mega-Gargant he still only counts as 5 models on an objective. You also have summoning whereas they have model recursion; theirs stops working if you kill Nagash or wipe out the units (the latter is probably more feasible) so focusing on the mission and killing his lackeys is probably the safe play. 

As far as trying to kill him, historically mortal wounds tended to be the less efficient way of dealing with him compared to high quantities of high Rend high Damage attacks, but I think ignoring one point of Rend and the potential for a 2+ swing it back the other way. Saving on a 2+ or 3+ re-rolling 1s means very few failures, which unfortunately means with the Petrifex rule that Rend 1 is worthless and Rend 2 is unreliable (unless he doesn't have the 2+) meanwhile our sources of Rend 3 are very lacking. This tells us units like Twinsouls and Fiends simply won't cut it; most of our more 'efficient' damage dealers are handicapped by low Rend or not outputting a high quantity of mortal wounds. 

Killing him via attrition also isn't ideal as he's usually healing (but probably more than) 3+D3 wounds in each of his turns and D3 in your turn, so your strategy had better involve doing more damage than he can reliably heal. If we're not using Allies but being open to Coalition units, Archaon is theoretically your best bet - but even with his 4+ to ignore spells, that's not a model I'd want to gamble on a Hand of Dust, nor do I think Archaon is even likely to kill him if Nagash is sitting on a 2+ in Petrifex. You can hope for the insta-kill but in that situation I'd rather Archaon mulch the army around Nagash and win on objectives, as at least that way he's much less likely to get held up by a brick wall and rendered nigh useless. Even if both the big beasties play aggressive as they should, you can summon new units and they can't, and being unable to use the +3" move command multiple times anymore makes Ossiarchs slower than ever.  

TLDR; play to the mission and kill his supporting cast. He's harder to kill than ever with that combo of 2+ save re-rolling 1s and ignoring one point of Rend. An Enrapturess to try and fish for a miscast will annoy him like nothing else, and if you do account for allies then Be'lakor will absolutely ruin his day as he's a shade under 1000 points in an already points-strapped army. 

Side-note; if we way had a way to boost attacks...or if she just had more than one attack...this particular situation would be where Shalaxi could really shine with her Rend 3 Damage 6 profile. Such a wasted opportunity with all the big scaries running around. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

8 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Side-note; if we way had a way to boost attacks...or if she just had more than one attack...this particular situation would be where Shalaxi could really shine with her Rend 3 Damage 6 profile. Such a wasted opportunity with all the big scaries running around

I think Shalaxi is probably one of our most disappointing units because they have so much potential thematically but just don't do their job well (worse than a normal KoS in fact). It'd be like if Gotrek's unkillable gimmick was a 5+ ward and reducing damage by 1. 

I know that the new book is more seen as a Slaanesh 1.0 from the designers (according to a playtester). The old book was more like a 0.5 Beta test, which is why little changed with the rules (both allegiance abilities and daemons) besides fixing the most egregious problems like DP and locus. 

In the next book, I hope it's a true 2.0 and they look at the book holistically and make some QoL improvements to lesser used units, and of course give us some new things to play with rules-wise. 

It would be nice for Shalaxi to be reworked to be the very best hero killer in the game (costed appropriately). Something like this:

Most abilities would focus around the Quarry - and while they seem incredibly strong against that Quarry, they're not very strong at all against everything else - so it would be a game of cat and mouse. The opponent can keep them easily tied up with chaff (Soulpiercer sucks against small models), but if they leave their god model open then Shalaxi will at least leave a big dent. 

Definitely not a perfect Warscroll, but one I hope gets the "Perfect Hunter" part of their lore (really the only part of their lore) across. I'd like them to be as good at hunting as Teclis is at casting, or Skarbrand is at getting angry.

[azdimy]

13 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

Oh wait you said no allies…. I donno Archaon? He’s a hedonite

I think you and the others in our group sold me on Belakor 😀

Here s the list I m going to bring. Feels like a dedicated anti Nagash list but Nagash probably deserves it. Lol

Slaanesh Invaders

+++++++++++
Warlord battallion
1 extra enhancement (auto include amulet)
1 extra cp once per battle
Grand strategy- priced sorcery


Infernal Enrapturess 140
General

Contorted epitome 255
General
Flaming weapon spell
Hurler of obscenities
Amulet of destiny

Chaos sorcerer lord 115
Battle rapture spell
Rod of misrule

Belakor 360

11 blissbarb archers 180
+++++++++++++++++++
Men of the hearland battallion
5 slickblade seekers 230
10 chaos knight w lance 340
5 hellstriders 135
Hellscourge

+++++++++++++++++++++++
5 hellstriders 135
Hellscourge

Endless spell;
Dreadful visage 90 cast on 7+

2000pts
40 models
112 wounds

I ll try to have the enrapturess within 24in of Nagash on deployment in case he takes first turn. If he goes second I ll use belakor ability at that point in case he gets the double turn

For once, my rod of misrule won t help my opponent as I always seem to roll at least a 1 per game with it

While Nagash is under Belakor ability,it is probably my best chance to get rid of him so i meed a plan to charge him on turn 1 which will be difficult.  I ve had good results charging the knights and having my epitome hurling obsenities from 6in at those 3+ armor heroes for a sneaky neg 1 save. I highly rate this command trait in invaders in 3.0

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by azdimy

[Enoby]

33 minutes ago, azdimy said:

10 chaos knight w lance 340

Would appreciate to know how the knights go Like I've said, I've not had a good experience with them but if you find otherwise I'd really like to hear it! 

[Nagashfan]

46 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I think you and the others in our group sold me on Belakor 😀

Here s the list I m going to bring. Feels like a dedicated anti Nagash list but Nagash probably deserves it. Lol

Slaanesh Invaders

+++++++++++
Warlord battallion
1 extra enhancement (auto include amulet)
1 extra cp once per battle
Grand strategy- priced sorcery


Infernal Enrapturess 140
General

Contorted epitome 255
General
Flaming weapon spell
Hurler of obscenities
Amulet of destiny

Chaos sorcerer lord 115
Battle rapture spell
Rod of misrule

Belakor 360

11 blissbarb archers 180
+++++++++++++++++++
Men of the hearland battallion
5 slickblade seekers 230
10 chaos knight w lance 340
5 hellstriders 135
Hellscourge

+++++++++++++++++++++++
5 hellstriders 135
Hellscourge

Endless spell;
Dreadful visage 90 cast on 7+

2000pts
40 models
112 wounds

I ll try to have the enrapturess within 24in of Nagash on deployment in case he takes first turn. If he goes second I ll use belakor ability at that point in case he gets the double turn

For once, my rod of misrule won t help my opponent as I always seem to roll at least a 1 per game with it

While Nagash is under Belakor ability,it is probably my best chance to get rid of him so i meed a plan to charge him on turn 1 which will be difficult.  I ve had good results charging the knights and having my epitome hurling obsenities from 6in at those 3+ armor heroes for a sneaky neg 1 save. I highly rate this command trait in invaders in 3.0

 

Let us know how it goes… belakor simply is our best counter to god units. Plus he looks awesome and lore wise is scheming with the twins. He hits pretty good with his sword and with flaming weapon even better.

[azdimy]

5 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Let us know how it goes… belakor simply is our best counter to god units. Plus he looks awesome and lore wise is scheming with the twins. He hits pretty good with his sword and with flaming weapon even better.

I thought he could not get flaming weapon being an ally he cannot get enhancement which includes universal spell?

[Enoby]

6 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I thought he could not get flaming weapon being an ally he cannot get enhancement which includes universal spell?

I think this is the case unfortunately

[Nagashfan]

59 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I thought he could not get flaming weapon being an ally he cannot get enhancement which includes universal spell?

Oh yeah that could be

[Enoby]

Hoping to give this list a go at some point

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Pain (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Delusions of Infallibility
- Artefact: Icon of Infinite Excess
- Host Option: General
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)*
The Masque (135)**
- Host Option: General
(360)*
- Glutos Orscollion (475)

Battleline
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)**
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)**
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)**

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Vanguard

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 8

---

Basically Michael's list - he's said he's won with this quite a few times, and that "It requires some good tactical play but very rewarding to use." 

Normally I don't like 'net listing' for myself, but I'm personally find with it in this case for two reasons:

1) It seems very player depending on how well this works, rather than the "normal" perception of netlists which are just point and click

2) I really want to see how it works; I expect to lose a lot at first, but I reckon there's a lot of potential to be found in each unit 

Unfortunately absolutely nowhere is doing tournaments near me

[Carnith]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think Shalaxi is probably one of our most disappointing units because they have so much potential thematically but just don't do their job well (worse than a normal KoS in fact). It'd be like if Gotrek's unkillable gimmick was a 5+ ward and reducing damage by 1. 

I know that the new book is more seen as a Slaanesh 1.0 from the designers (according to a playtester). The old book was more like a 0.5 Beta test, which is why little changed with the rules (both allegiance abilities and daemons) besides fixing the most egregious problems like DP and locus. 

In the next book, I hope it's a true 2.0 and they look at the book holistically and make some QoL improvements to lesser used units, and of course give us some new things to play with rules-wise. 

It would be nice for Shalaxi to be reworked to be the very best hero killer in the game (costed appropriately). Something like this:

Most abilities would focus around the Quarry - and while they seem incredibly strong against that Quarry, they're not very strong at all against everything else - so it would be a game of cat and mouse. The opponent can keep them easily tied up with chaff (Soulpiercer sucks against small models), but if they leave their god model open then Shalaxi will at least leave a big dent. 

Definitely not a perfect Warscroll, but one I hope gets the "Perfect Hunter" part of their lore (really the only part of their lore) across. I'd like them to be as good at hunting as Teclis is at casting, or Skarbrand is at getting angry.

A wording change on your soulpiercer rule would be something about rounding in the game of like a 3 wound model. What if Shalaxi fought brutes, a 3 wound model, or a megaboss which has 7. 

I would make soul piecer maybe have a minimum of 3 attacks, maybe damage 3. It getting chaffed to death it not going go be a good time. 

[azdimy]

36 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Hoping to give this list a go at some point

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Invaders Host
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Pain (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Delusions of Infallibility
- Artefact: Icon of Infinite Excess
- Host Option: General
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)*
The Masque (135)**
- Host Option: General
(360)*
- Glutos Orscollion (475)

Battleline
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)**
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)**
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (220)**

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Vanguard

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 8

---

Basically Michael's list - he's said he's won with this quite a few times, and that "It requires some good tactical play but very rewarding to use." 

Normally I don't like 'net listing' for myself, but I'm personally find with it in this case for two reasons:

1) It seems very player depending on how well this works, rather than the "normal" perception of netlists which are just point and click

2) I really want to see how it works; I expect to lose a lot at first, but I reckon there's a lot of potential to be found in each unit 

Unfortunately absolutely nowhere is doing tournaments near me

I feel you lack rend but my local meta is full of pretrifex obr and sons of behemat. Doesn t Michael run Be'lakor and not Glutos?

[Enoby]

5 minutes ago, azdimy said:

I feel you lack rend but my local meta is full of pretrifex obr and sons of behemat. Doesn t Michael run Be'lakor and not Glutos?

He does normally, though he said:

"Used that list a lot and it does well. If you want to drop belakor and go all hedonites you can drop him and the helstriders and put In gljtos"

So I'd rather keep Glutos over buying Be'Lekor and risking a 50 points increase or changing ally rules  Might get Be'Lekor in the future if I'm inspired to do a conversion, but for now I'll stick with Glutos 

Rend may be an issue, though I'm usually against Kruelboyz who have poor saves. It's why I'd like to try out the list and see why I lose - or if there's something unexpected that I can't get over.

 

[Elazar The Glorified]

Like the list Enoby. Although curious why you've picked the battalions you've gone for? Is the Warlord for the extra command point (and Vanguard having essentially a conditional extra one)? 

Until their book comes out with the rest of their range Kruleboyz are in an odd place and I have found in my games (currently my most commonly fought army also) that Be'lakor is a bit wasted until they get some 'proper' characters it's worth disrupting to the tune of that many points. In my last game I went for a similar list. 

LoP - General - Delusions of Infallibility, Rod of Misrule

Glutos

Synessa

11 Blissbarb Archers

11 Blissbarb Archers

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears 

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears

10 Symbaresh Twinsouls

Wheels of Excruciation

Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery

Everything in  Battle Regiment for the one drop (which is one of the main reasons I dropped Be'lakor, reluctant to surrender control of the first priority) 

We ended up playing The Vice which is quite a tough one for us I think and I was glad I had the two units of Hellstriders to sit out the battle first few turns holding the home objectives but with the speed to push up and contest my opponent's as I cycled depleted Blissbarb units back up the board as the line of battle shifted and they became more useful out of the way but still alive. Mind, that's quite a tough battleplan for the Battle Tactics as there aren't many easy ones with the objectives starting so far back and not in neutral territory etc. 

I really enjoyed the list and it worked well thanks as ever to the impressive tankiness of Glutos. Look forward to hearing how you get on with yours and in particular the Blissbarb Seekers and the Masque which are the key differences between ours (still not used either in the new book yet) 

[Sorrow]

9 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think Shalaxi is probably one of our most disappointing units because they have so much potential thematically but just don't do their job well (worse than a normal KoS in fact). It'd be like if Gotrek's unkillable gimmick was a 5+ ward and reducing damage by 1. 

I know that the new book is more seen as a Slaanesh 1.0 from the designers (according to a playtester). The old book was more like a 0.5 Beta test, which is why little changed with the rules (both allegiance abilities and daemons) besides fixing the most egregious problems like DP and locus. 

In the next book, I hope it's a true 2.0 and they look at the book holistically and make some QoL improvements to lesser used units, and of course give us some new things to play with rules-wise. 

It would be nice for Shalaxi to be reworked to be the very best hero killer in the game (costed appropriately). Something like this:

Most abilities would focus around the Quarry - and while they seem incredibly strong against that Quarry, they're not very strong at all against everything else - so it would be a game of cat and mouse. The opponent can keep them easily tied up with chaff (Soulpiercer sucks against small models), but if they leave their god model open then Shalaxi will at least leave a big dent. 

Definitely not a perfect Warscroll, but one I hope gets the "Perfect Hunter" part of their lore (really the only part of their lore) across. I'd like them to be as good at hunting as Teclis is at casting, or Skarbrand is at getting angry.

That would be a very good Shalaxi, quite lore correct too.

Also, for my fellow Hedonites,

@AngryPanda Thoughts?

[Elazar The Glorified]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

That would be a very good Shalaxi, quite lore correct too.

Also, for my fellow Hedonites,

@AngryPanda Thoughts?

23 games isn't a great sample size to really prove anything and I think there's a huge chicken and egg element to all the initial furore about Slaanesh and BoC being dead for now for example. Means more good players aren't playing them, it may be justified, certainly in comparison to quite a few more obvious choices for if you want to be successful competitively but as a result you're more likely seeing a few die-hard Slaanesh players for whom winning is not at any cost playing the faction against others that have a host of stronger players running them.

I don't think anyone is under the illusion we're in a great place but all this really tells us is that people picking which army to run competitively at least share that belief

[Jaskier]

The positive news is that regardless of how strong we actually are in practice (for the record I think we're fine) the general internet consensus is that we are terrible and a quick pass of that data wouldn't dissuade someone away from that perception. Basically, it's probably a safe bet GW will look at all the discourse and data like this and say "hmm, maybe we got it wrong" and drop our points accordingly, whether it is really needed or not.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Jaskier

[LeonBox]

17 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think Shalaxi is probably one of our most disappointing units because they have so much potential thematically but just don't do their job well (worse than a normal KoS in fact). It'd be like if Gotrek's unkillable gimmick was a 5+ ward and reducing damage by 1. 

I know that the new book is more seen as a Slaanesh 1.0 from the designers (according to a playtester). The old book was more like a 0.5 Beta test, which is why little changed with the rules (both allegiance abilities and daemons) besides fixing the most egregious problems like DP and locus. 

In the next book, I hope it's a true 2.0 and they look at the book holistically and make some QoL improvements to lesser used units, and of course give us some new things to play with rules-wise. 

It would be nice for Shalaxi to be reworked to be the very best hero killer in the game (costed appropriately). Something like this:

Most abilities would focus around the Quarry - and while they seem incredibly strong against that Quarry, they're not very strong at all against everything else - so it would be a game of cat and mouse. The opponent can keep them easily tied up with chaff (Soulpiercer sucks against small models), but if they leave their god model open then Shalaxi will at least leave a big dent. 

Definitely not a perfect Warscroll, but one I hope gets the "Perfect Hunter" part of their lore (really the only part of their lore) across. I'd like them to be as good at hunting as Teclis is at casting, or Skarbrand is at getting angry.

I absolutely love this (as I've mentioned once or twice, I have a soft spot for Shalaxi) and it would be great to see Shalaxi get the love they deserve. 

I actually had Shalaxi versus Petrifex Nagash a few weeks ago, where she got Hand of Dusted. She is the sole source of -3 rend in our army but I didn't charge Nagash because I didn't see the point -- he's 16 wounds with a 2+/4++, re-rolling armour saves of 1, so she would have perhaps put a temporary dent in him and then died to his counterattacks. 

[Enoby]

12 hours ago, Sorrow said:

That would be a very good Shalaxi, quite lore correct too.

Also, for my fellow Hedonites,

@AngryPanda Thoughts?

I think both @Elazar The Glorified and @Jaskier raise good points - a lot of super competitive players will choose 'safe' competitive armies (as in tried and tested) to build and paint for tournaments, so the majority of Slaanesh players will likely be the ones just playing because they like the army. I think there's also a massive stigma against Slaanesh in competitive environments - as in, it seems to be tournament players (or at least loud voices on Twitter) saying "Slaanesh sucks" making competitive players even less likely to pick them up. But as mentioned, if we do keep getting poor win rates in 'real' tournaments we're likely to see a points drop which I would appreciate, especially on the KoS and Shalaxi. I do think HoS is 'meant' to be a competitive army in the eyes of the designers, compared to something like Gloomspite (which is more of a "for fun" army).

My biggest worry is still BoC - they've been at the bottom for years it seems, but there doesn't seem to be much of a plan to help them. At least with us, most nerfs were a reaction to 2019. With BoC, I don't know why they aren't helping them more    

[CeleFAZE]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think both @Elazar The Glorified and @Jaskier raise good points - a lot of super competitive players will choose 'safe' competitive armies (as in tried and tested) to build and paint for tournaments, so the majority of Slaanesh players will likely be the ones just playing because they like the army. I think there's also a massive stigma against Slaanesh in competitive environments - as in, it seems to be tournament players (or at least loud voices on Twitter) saying "Slaanesh sucks" making competitive players even less likely to pick them up. But as mentioned, if we do keep getting poor win rates in 'real' tournaments we're likely to see a points drop which I would appreciate, especially on the KoS and Shalaxi. I do think HoS is 'meant' to be a competitive army in the eyes of the designers, compared to something like Gloomspite (which is more of a "for fun" army).

My biggest worry is still BoC - they've been at the bottom for years it seems, but there doesn't seem to be much of a plan to help them. At least with us, most nerfs were a reaction to 2019. With BoC, I don't know why they aren't helping them more    

I think BoC are probably due for a new book fairly early in this edition cycle if I had to guess. They suffer largely from holdover themes from WHFB that don't competitively translate to AoS (low armor ambushing forces), and it seems like the developers weren't quite sure how to make that work with the current system. Low save monsters just don't operate well at all, and they are in desperate need of at minimum more "baked in" 4+ saves to keep up. I think 2-wound gors would also be a great change, letting them fill a similar niche to other anvil units.

As for Slaanesh, I think we're at the mercy of some unfortunate prejudices on the part of the rules team. I imagine someone got a -stern- talking to after the first book, and there's probably a lot of emotional baggage leftover from that experience throughout the design department. Likely there's also a disconnect between the mathematical theory of the army and how we function on the tabletop, and GW is holding fast to their guns on this without a willingness to entertain other thoughts on the matter. I'm curious to see how things move forward, and I'll continue to play Slaanesh at whatever large events I'm able to attend to hopefully contribute to whatever aggregate data is considered for re-pointing. I'm generally not a top-tables player, but I've done well in my last showing so we'll see how it plays out.

[Nagashfan]

Off topic a bit but those stormcast dragons breath attack is terrible. 3D for 1, d3, or d6 damage? 

[The World Tree]

45 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Off topic a bit but those stormcast dragons breath attack is terrible. 3D for 1, d3, or d6 damage? 

These are civilised dragons - they brush their teeth

[Enoby]

4 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

As for Slaanesh, I think we're at the mercy of some unfortunate prejudices on the part of the rules team. I imagine someone got a -stern- talking to after the first book, and there's probably a lot of emotional baggage leftover from that experience throughout the design department. Likely there's also a disconnect between the mathematical theory of the army and how we function on the tabletop, and GW is holding fast to their guns on this without a willingness to entertain other thoughts on the matter. I'm curious to see how things move forward, and I'll continue to play Slaanesh at whatever large events I'm able to attend to hopefully contribute to whatever aggregate data is considered for re-pointing. I'm generally not a top-tables player, but I've done well in my last showing so we'll see how it plays out.

From what I understand, it was JJ who wrote both of our books and he's left now, so hopefully the next book will have a bit of a different spin on it. But I think you're right, the main aim of the newest book was to bring the old book into a workable state and that probably involved playing it safe so they didn't have to deal with another broken mess. In their mind, and I think I'd agree but it's a shame, their internal maths is telling them the points need to be this high to ensure balance (as in, have no chance of it being OP), and then they can work on building up rather than tearing down as they had to do before.

I think I will set up another survey soon just to see how opinions have changed (if at all) and ask for a few things again in Tome Celestial.  

[MothmanDraws]

I think some of the initial setbacks have been offset by belakor alone honestly. Had he not dropped I think slaanesh would be in worse spot. We are pretty weak vs anything big so just turning them off gives us time to get stuff done. He alone is turning some matches from near auto lose to "maybe salvageable". Especially as our best tactic atm seems to be "belakor turns off big bad and hopefully synessa spell turns off other threat", giving us 2 turns to fight with 2000pts vs 1000-1250 point armies after their big pieces are not working (amusingly turning off 400+ point monsters is probably just offsetting our inflated army costs so its more we are fighting vs even force).

 

While those games are fairly small I honestly think they are accurate as to some extent our entire game plan in some matches is that belakor rolls a 3+ and that synessa can stay out of unbind range+ make a cast.

As for survey I honestly still think the answers are the same, most units are still overcosted, sure some have solid value now but to some extent that value came now due to removing the alternative 90pt warrior blocks for our troops. Myrmidesh and twinsouls do amazing work but are still too costly.