AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

 

 

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Seekers stand out as the fastest of the bunch, with an extra 3.5" movement over Hellstriders and an extra 2.5" movement over Centigors. 

 

TL:DR Summary:

• Marauder Horsemen are pretty much strictly worse than all of the other choices, but the other three units all have a place
• Hellstriders are mostly useful if you need the battleline
• Centigors are the most versatile and efficient at baseline, and they do a good job of hitting hard with their initial charge. They are the best choice in most cases based on pure stats
• Seekers are the best if you want to absolutely maximize initial speed and offense at the cost of everything else and are prepared to support them with the KoS command ability and/or Icon of Infinite Excess.  

 

Thanks for the response, very interesting.

Were you factoring in speed boost with shaman for centigor?

I'm pretty impressed that those units all have a potential place, given they can be seen as similar. I agree that marauder horsemen are the worst option, but I'd give them a little * for having access to shooting in a low shooting list.

If you don't mind, how do Gor start to look at their new point value of 70 for 10? Still waiting on if they are going to have a horde discount.

[swarmofseals]

13 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Were you factoring in speed boost with shaman for centigor?

If you don't mind, how do Gor start to look at their new point value of 70 for 10? Still waiting on if they are going to have a horde discount.

I wasn't factoring in the shaman speed boost, so if you count that then they are almost even with Seekers for speed, at least on the first turn.

Gors are pretty even with Ungors now. If you give them paired weapons they are about 30% more offensively efficient than Ungors but Ungors are about 7% ,more defensively efficient at range and 33% more defensively efficient in melee. If you give them shields they are about 11% more offensively efficient than Ungors and dead even defensively in melee but Ungors are about 7% more defensively efficient at range. 

Ungors have a couple of subtler advantages though. Most importantly, they are on 25mm bases which means they can more easily get larger numbers of models in combat. They also fall off less quickly as they die. Gors lose nearly half their offense when they take 11 casualties while Ungors lose only about a third of their offense after taking 21 casualties. 

Overall I think Ungors probably still have a small edge but it's not enough to stop you from using Gors if you want to.

Of course, Bestigors still outshine Gors by a lot on offense. In most situations they will be significantly better than Gors with paired weapons, and they are also only slightly less efficient defensively than Gors with paired weapons. 

All of this assumes you are using a normal battleplan though. In meeting engagements Gors look a little better than they otherwise would because the smaller unit sizes mean that the 32mm bases are less of a problem and Bestigors are less attractive because you can't get their juicy 2 points per model massive regiment discount.

[CB42]

Triumph GT: my rundown of my games. I ended up getting second place.

My list is attached. At 4 drops, I had choice of turn in all 5 games. General strategy: Either plan for second turn and screen with my Ungors, holding Bestigors and GBS on one flank and Seekers, Epitome, and Keeper on the other flank (hedonite heroes always start within 6” of the Fane); or plan for first turn, drop my heroes first then Seekers then battalion last, hoping to avoid making it clear that I was taking first turn until I had to. GBS is always deployed 10” back from where he needs to be to get my besties going fast so that he can cast Cogs from outside unbind range if I’m concerned the Epitome might get unbound. If I’m facing a monster heavy list (Slaanesh, Sylvaneth, FEC), I take the wound on my Epitome for those sweet sweet rerolls with the Sword of Judgment and reroll anything that’s not a 6 to hit with the piercing claws. Against other lists, I take the wound on my Keeper.

Game 1: Victory vs Skaven on Scorched Earth. His list was 100 clanrats, 2 Warp lightning cannons, 6 jezzails, and some casters. He castled up on 2 of his 3 objectives and I took first turn to keep him from pushing his screen out onto the board - I wanted to hold him in place while I whittled away his screen from two sides on turn 2. I used my Seekers and Keeper to kill 20 clanrats holding his third objective and I sent 40 Ungors into his screen of 80 clanrats, killing a fair number. This forced him to spend his next turn dealing with them while shooting at my Seekers (I kept my keeper out of range of his jezzails and WLCs). On my next turn, I slammed my Bestigors into his surviving clanrats in front and my remaining Seekers into his clanrats on his side, and I killed all his clanrats, both his cannons, and locked his jezzails into shooting my Bestigors, not my Keeper, at which point he conceded.

Game 2: Victory versus Khorne on Focal Points. His list was a bloodthirster (the pile in 6” one), 20 bloodwarriors, 6 skullcrushers, 3 priests, a secrator, and some reavers. We both deployed to take first turn, which forced me to actually take first turn instead of letting him have it, which was frustrating - I didn’t want to fight him in my territory with my screens dead. I killed his Mighty Skullcrushers and a unit of reavers with my Seekers and Keeper, and I killed half his bloodwarriors and a priest and a unit of reavers with my Bestigors. Didn’t manage to get the bloodsecrator. His Thirster kills my Bestigors, then moves 6” from my Keeper. I pop my Doppelgänger Cloak so he can’t attack my Keeper if he piles in, so he piles into my Seekers instead and kills them. His bloodwarriors charge into my Ungors and I tarpit him while continuing to hold the objective. He gets the double turn, kills more Ungors, and kills my Keeper now that my Cloak is down. On my turn, I take a wound on my Epitome, summon 2 x 10 Daemonettes to hold or seize objectives, and I go kill his thirster with my Epitome and Daemonettes. At this point, I’m pretty far ahead and still have some depravity - he makes a last ditch play to summon some Bloodletters and tries to kill both my Epitome and my Great bray shaman, but his letters fail their charge, and he concedes because I can guarantee a win with summoning.

Game 3: Victory versus Slaanesh on Total Commitment. His list was 2 keepers, 50 Daemonettes, 5 Seekers, Epitome, Enrapturess, geminids. He deploys to try to take my left flank if I give him first turn; I decide to screen and give him first turn. He kills 40 Ungors with his Keeper and his Seekers, then on my turn I slam 30 Bestigors into his Keeper and Seekers. I charge the Seekers and set my Bestigors up in a big circle 3.5” away from the Keeper so that the keeper can’t be selected to fight until after my Bestigors have piled in even if he locuses me. I bring the keeper and Seekers down to 1 hp left each, but he kills my Bestigors. Meanwhile, I kill his other keeper with my Epitome, steal one of his objectives with my Seekers, and start whittling down his other heroes and Daemonettes with my Keeper. I double turn him and finish off his first Keeper and Seekers, summon some Daemonettes, and generally accept that my board position isn’t ideal. He summons a keeper and more Daemonettes, kills my Keeper, then resecures his objective on my right flank. I use Ungors as road blocks on my right, I use summoned Daemonettes to take his objective on my left flank, and my one surviving Seeker runs around distractingly to steal undefended objectives, forcing him to commit his forces for a few turns to really secure my right side. By the time he starts heading to my left side, I have a large objective lead and several units of summoned Daemonettes slowing down his keeper and Daemonettes, and he concedes when I win priority top of turn 5 as he has no way to catch me. He ended up placing 8th at the tournament.

Game 4: Loss versus Nurgle on Better Part of Valor (which I always lose on even though my army is crazy fast and should, on paper, be amazing at). His list had 40 plague monks, 2 x 5 blight kings, Rotigus, 10 chaos knights, 30 Plaguebearers, an allied epitome, and a hero holding The Witherstaff, which hard counters us - rerolling hits of 6 is the worst thing to deal with. I made a huge mistake this game and thought my Keeper + Seekers would be able to kill his Plaguebearers and blightkings holding one objective. They could not. Not even close. Not even fighting twice. I almost sniped his hero with the witherstaff with my Impaling Claws (he’d placed his hero within 3” of where I could pile in) but I rolled poorly and he ended up surviving. So my seekers and Keeper got nullified and tarpitted. My Bestigors killed his plaguemonks and 1/3 of his chaos knights, but then my besties ran from battleshock. He stole most of my objectives but didn’t burn them, and his chaos knights killed my Ungors. I managed to use my GBS and Epitome to summon Daemonettes and make charges to secure 4 of 6 objectives, and since I wouldn’t be able to hold any with his chaos knights on the table, I burned all 4 for 5 points. At this point, he offered me a minor loss: we were running out of time and he said he could burn one objective for 1 point, wait one more turn before dice down and burn the last objective, then he’d win the tie on kill points. I didn’t accept this because he could just castle and hold the last objective until turn 5 and get 9 points instead of 5, so he could guarantee he won if not for dice down, so I conceded for the major loss. I just didn’t have enough left on the board to break through his defensive castle that survived a Keeper and 20 Seekers. He ended up in 4th place at the tournament after losing in the finals to Slaanesh.

Game 5: Victory versus Slaanesh on Shifting Objectives. His list used 3 Keepers (normal, soulfeaster, and Shalaxi), plus 2 x 10 Daemonettes, 1 x 5 Hellstriders, the Epitome, and 6 fiends. I screened my army really carefully, gave him first turn, and he failed most of his charges - he got his keeper into 40 Ungors but rolled poorly and only killed 25 of them after battleshock. On my turn, I used my Seekers to kill 10 Daemonettes and 2 fiends and I took one objective; my Bestigors killed 10 Daemonettes, 5 Hellstriders, and put 3 wounds on his Epitome; my Keeper killed his Keeper; and my Epitome with the Sword of Judgment rerolling hits killed his soulfeaster. Then, I double turned him, killed his Epitome and Shalaxi, and he had 70 depravity and no heroes to summon with. He conceded when he had just 4 fiends left on the board and I still hadn’t lost a full unit. He ended up placing 7th at the tournament. Had I not double turned him, it would’ve been close - but getting that double turn really sealed the game for me. And the way locuses interact - If multiple things fight at the end of the phase, first ALL of the player whose turn it is stuff goes, then ALL of the other player’s stuff goes - means that locuses really just benefit whoever’s turn it is, which let me kill all his keepers.

In the end, I took second place, and I’m pretty happy with going 4-1 against some pretty strong lists! I’ve now played against 3 Slaanesh players in a tournament setting and my list does really well in the mirror matchup, which is good because Slaanesh is going to feature heavily in the meta going forward!

[swarmofseals]

@CB42 that's a great writeup, thoroughly enjoyed it.

The 3.5" Bestigor move vs. Keeper is brilliant. 

Given your experience so far with the army, how convinced are you that the doppel cloak is necessary?

[CB42]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

@CB42 that's a great writeup, thoroughly enjoyed it.

The 3.5" Bestigor move vs. Keeper is brilliant. 

Given your experience so far with the army, how convinced are you that the doppel cloak is necessary?

I’m not convinced the Doppelgänger Cloak is necessary. It’s just really good against keepers, FEC, and Bloodthirsters.

Thermalrider Cloak or Cameo or rod of misrule or sliverslash or ghyrstrike are also all good artifacts to consider.

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, CB42 said:

I’m not convinced the Doppelgänger Cloak is necessary. It’s just really good against keepers, FEC, and Bloodthirsters.

Thermalrider Cloak or Cameo or rod of misrule or sliverslash or ghyrstrike are also all good artifacts to consider.

Yeah I didn’t get the 3,5” move. I’m probably missing something or other. How did you do it? And what allowed you to pile in? 

Great write ups, and congrats on the wins. 

[CB42]

28 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah I didn’t get the 3,5” move. I’m probably missing something or other. How did you do it? And what allowed you to pile in? 

Great write ups, and congrats on the wins. 

You pile in each model towards the closest enemy model to that model, even if it’s not in combat with you. If you have 30 Bestigors or 20 Seekers, that means you can charge one model within 0.5 inches of (not scary enemy unit) then use your charge roll to get just outside 3 inches of (scary unit) with the rest of your charge distance. (Scary unit) is not considered in combat or selectable for combat, but since one of your models is in combat with (not scary unit), your unit and (not scary unit) are both selectable for combat. When it’s your time to pile in, you pile in and attack (scary unit), getting around fight first shenanigans.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, CB42 said:

You pile in each model towards the closest enemy model to that model, even if it’s not in combat with you. If you have 30 Bestigors or 20 Seekers, that means you can charge one model within 0.5 inches of (not scary enemy unit) then use your charge roll to get just outside 3 inches of (scary unit) with the rest of your charge distance. (Scary unit) is not considered in combat or selectable for combat, but since one of your models is in combat with (not scary unit), your unit and (not scary unit) are both selectable for combat. When it’s your time to pile in, you pile in and attack (scary unit), getting around fight first shenanigans.

Oh that's what you meant! Got it thanks! I missed that you charged another unit. I was already looking at the warscrolls and artefacts 😂

[Carnith]

So another trick is if you get more activations than your opponent. If they have to pass on activations before you pile in to the scary threat, that threat will not get to retaliate since your opponent passed on activations.

anyone can do this but slaanesh can do it easier. All you have to do is charge the not scary unit with a hero and say those bestigors. Locus the big blob and activate your hero. It swings. Now your opponent chooses and will not have an activation as the big squad of boys is 3.1 inches away he passes for the rest of the turn. You finish all of your combats including the boys piling in to the scary threat. Scary threat cannot retaliate as your opponent has passed the rest of his combat. His last strike unit goes at end of combat.  

 

The difference here is other armies have to have more units than the opponent and not kill stuff to have more piles ins to force the enemy to pass. With slaanesh, we just locus ours and do weaker combats first. If I was trying this strat I would throw in the vice leader or a boc hero who might not kill a big horde just to keep models alive

[CB42]

26 minutes ago, carnith said:

So another trick is if you get more activations than your opponent. If they have to pass on activations before you pile in to the scary threat, that threat will not get to retaliate since your opponent passed on activations.

anyone can do this but slaanesh can do it easier. All you have to do is charge the not scary unit with a hero and say those bestigors. Locus the big blob and activate your hero. It swings. Now your opponent chooses and will not have an activation as the big squad of boys is 3.1 inches away he passes for the rest of the turn. You finish all of your combats including the boys piling in to the scary threat. Scary threat cannot retaliate as your opponent has passed the rest of his combat. His last strike unit goes at end of combat.  

 

The difference here is other armies have to have more units than the opponent and not kill stuff to have more piles ins to force the enemy to pass. With slaanesh, we just locus ours and do weaker combats first. If I was trying this strat I would throw in the vice leader or a boc hero who might not kill a big horde just to keep models alive

I’m not sure I agree with this - I don’t believe passing precludes you from using the unit later, it’s just that both players passing in succession ends the combat phase. So theoretically you could pass, someone activated and piles into you, then you now have a selectable unit and fight back. There was an faq about FEC stuff, I think, where people were asking something similar - if something fights at the start of the phase and isn’t in combat, then you pile in later, do they lose their activation because they passed on it at the start of the phase? And the answer was no, they can still fight after someone piled into them.

[Carnith]

Ah okay. Maybe I mixed this up with always fights last and assumed since they passed on activations they passed for the turn. 

[CB42]

19 minutes ago, carnith said:

Ah okay. Maybe I mixed this up with always fights last and assumed since they passed on activations they passed for the turn. 

In fairness, the community agreed with your interpretation until, like, 3 months ago when the FEC faq came out. I personally would rather it be the way you interpreted it because, in a world of fight first and you fight last, it allows for other armies to have some counterplay... but no, GW made sure that the best you can do is swinging first once against a FEC dragon before it fights twice and kills you.

Edited June 15, 2019 by CB42

[Carnith]

That is lame considering we lost any form of fight immediately. I wonder why it was decided we lost our ability to fight twice on one model for an army wide ability. 

[whispersofblood]

Also Bestigors need to be within 3" to activate, they just get 4" of movement.

[Poryague]

With ghb 2019 coming i have been talking to people in my local area about points. Seems the point adjusments They want for slaanesh are kos over 400 and enrapturess over 160 and battallion cost increases.  Some of that seems a bit much.

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Poryague said:

With ghb 2019 coming i have been talking to people in my local area about points. Seems the point adjusments They want for slaanesh are kos over 400 and enrapturess over 160 and battallion cost increases.  Some of that seems a bit much.

Keep in mind a lot of people are frustrated at the lack of meaningful point changes in addition to many problems arising from old warscrolls. And right now FEC/Skaven/Slaanesh are this year's DoK so they want to see those armies taken down a peg or two.

[Poryague]

15 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Keep in mind a lot of people are frustrated at the lack of meaningful point changes in addition to many problems arising from old warscrolls. And right now FEC/Skaven/Slaanesh are this year's DoK so they want to see those armies taken down a peg or two.

Fec and skaven with new books gave builds that can bend as high or close to DoK hagnar. I haven't seen anything yet in slaanesh list jumping to that level of bent. I can see some point increases because slaanesh does seem to be over performing for now. We havent seen fully how people will respond with army changes. If anything I would like to see more point drops or new battletomes for other armies. We are seeing more strike first and the ability for units to activate multiple times showing up. Armies that can play in the activation wars or weather the storm of those armies seem to be doing good. It could be possible that for shooting armies to stand shoot or activate twice in the shooting phase for some units could be possible in the future. The introduction of the activation war seems to be causing a lot of armies the headach becuase they dont have good counter play to it.

[kenshin620]

Well yea I think Slaanesh is not broken tier, but it definitely is in a good spot. Probably right now the best God army.

[MeSmashDaNoobs]

hello!

deamon prince of slaanesh have a ability that lets him attack before the first chosen enemy unit in a combat phase.

if 2 different units is 3" away and want to pile in my friend says i need to attack the first unit that he attacks with.

 

i say i can choose to attack any unit i want inside 3" of me.

 

who is right amd who is wrong?

 

please help me with this.

[Poryague]

2 minutes ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:

hello!

deamon prince of slaanesh have a ability that lets him attack before the first chosen enemy unit in a combat phase.

if 2 different units is 3" away and want to pile in my friend says i need to attack the first unit that he attacks with.

 

i say i can choose to attack any unit i want inside 3" of me.

 

who is right amd who is wrong?

 

please help me with this.

The daemon prince gets to activate and attack what ever is in reach. It just activates if a unit withen 3 activated. No where does it say you have to attack the unit that activated. It get to jump the line and attack whatever it can like a normal activation.

[Carnith]

2 minutes ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:

hello!

deamon prince of slaanesh have a ability that lets him attack before the first chosen enemy unit in a combat phase.

if 2 different units is 3" away and want to pile in my friend says i need to attack the first unit that he attacks with.

 

i say i can choose to attack any unit i want inside 3" of me.

 

who is right amd who is wrong?

 

please help me with this.

if the daemon prince is within 3" of a unit that activates, he automatically gets to activate. Now nothing says he must move towards the activating unit, and nothing says his attacks have to go into the unit that is activating. If your DP is within equal distance to 2 units, as per faqs, you can decide who you wish to pile in to. You could pile in away from the activating unit in this case. Simply put your friend is wrong.

[MeSmashDaNoobs]

2 hours ago, carnith said:

if the daemon prince is within 3" of a unit that activates, he automatically gets to activate. Now nothing says he must move towards the activating unit, and nothing says his attacks have to go into the unit that is activating. If your DP is within equal distance to 2 units, as per faqs, you can decide who you wish to pile in to. You could pile in away from the activating unit in this case. Simply put your friend is wrong.

Thank you very much.

 

in that case a DP with pretenders host

• 1. Strength of Godhood. Once per combat phase, in step 4 of the attack sequence, you can add D3 to the damage inflicted by one attack made by this general.
• 2. Strongest Alone. If there are no friendly models within 6", you can reroll hit rolls made by this general.
• 3. Sliverslash. Pick one melee weapon, add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of that weapon.

these put together gives his attack profile an insane boost. i wouldnt play this in 2k put in 1k matches...wow.

i one shotted a Lord of Change with a 160 point model, my friend thought i was cheating thats why i wrote this to get it confirmed.

Edited June 16, 2019 by MeSmashDaNoobs

[MeSmashDaNoobs]

i have one more question

territorial predator - Chaos Lord on Manticore

does the rules mean that if you attack ANY unit in your territory, you get the re rolls for the claws and jaws?

first it says MONSTER in enemy territory ( re rolling ones) but does it mean it can be ANY target in my territory ( re rolling all )?

Edited June 16, 2019 by MeSmashDaNoobs

[Carnith]

You are correct. It rerolls 1 vs monsters and rerolls all vs anything in it's territory. However, with its speed, it is not a bad option to take a MW on from the Fane and go full speed ahead.

[firebat]

7 hours ago, carnith said:

if the daemon prince is within 3" of a unit that activates, he automatically gets to activate. Now nothing says he must move towards the activating unit, and nothing says his attacks have to go into the unit that is activating. If your DP is within equal distance to 2 units, as per faqs, you can decide who you wish to pile in to. You could pile in away from the activating unit in this case. Simply put your friend is wrong.

He's wrong, but not because of your reasoning. The wording of the ability is that "you can immediately" not "you must immediately" or "The DP immediately...". 'Can' makes it a choice.