AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Overread]

The problem with the whole "but isn't killed" aspect is it creates a heavy bias. Within the army it creates a bias for multi-wound models, which means any 1 wound models are instantly unattractive because they won't generate any depravity when they die. 

When its targets it creates really odd variations in depravity generation. A Skaven army which is mostly clan-rats generates way less depravity than a Stormcast army. It's not that one is stronger than the other, but that one just has more multi-wound models to target. 

 

These are bias that the current system already has, only its limited to damage taken on leaders and dealt by leaders. Shifting it to all Hedonites at least levels the playing field a bit (but cuts out allies) but it still leaves inherent problems in the target enemy. 

 

I think part of the issue is GW is trying to make it a "unique mechanic" compared to other demon summoning mechanics and when they've already taken decent options it's leaving GW scrabbling for something different just to be different. I'd actually welcome a more sane system even if it winds up being a copy-cat of Khorne's or such. 

Personally I think the system needs to be more predictable and less unit dependent. This creates a point gain system which is easier to balance and also one which doesn't have heavy bias within the army or in the target enemy. Granted that loses some of the random element, but it presents a system taht rewards Hedonite players for taking different combinations and also means that select target enemies are not given a harder nor easier than expected match. 

 

 

Right now I want a Battletome that will let you take a whole army of chariots and seekers; or lots of keepers; or a mix of pureblood demons; or a mostly mortals force etc... I want variety and options even if that means depravity ends up a very basic simple system or even being removed/replaced iwth a new summoning mechanic

[Carnith]

39 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'd like this option, especially the idea that depravity can bring about other buffs. I'd actually quite like it if it worked like DoK (passive buffs building), but more extreme and with debuffs after a certain level to give a harder choice with summoning. So for example, an army wide +1 to hit, but -1 to save at X-Y depravity would make use choose whether we want the power vs the summoning and debuff. I think, in Slaanesh style, the buffs should increase offensive power/speed and reduce defensive power. It would be really difficult to balance as you wouldn't want the debuffs to be too harsh or to be inconsequential, but it could be very interesting. 

Not needing 20 dice to count depravity would be nice too

Only issue you might have with your suggestion is it might 'feel bad' to kill an opponent's unit. Rules-wise it's not an issue, but people may not like it if they feel they've lost something for doing "too well".  

I mean theres always an aspect of something that you may feel bad about. You can look at it two ways. You killed a potential scoring unit, so no worries there, and if you didn't? Sweet you got yourself some depravity. Currently you run into the issue if you have a unit kill something multi wound. Sure you killed it, but lost depravity since a hero didn't kill it, or engage with it. 

I think with a system that gains points for leaving units alive is that it gives a bit of creativity with list building. Maybe you want min archer squads so they can ping some wounds and get depravity for the army, but now you also have a unit that doesn't take buffs as well, and if they get charged you might not get any depravity since the unit likely out right dies. If your opponent brings a lot of hordes, there's a lot of depravity to be gained with cutting each unit, but you might end up not doing enough. 

I'm not finalized on what I should think a new depravity system should work, though I do like the buff and debuffs. Accept Slaanesh offer for +1 to hit, but lose -1 to save. Take slaanesh's offer for run and charge, but you must take the closest unit and cannot target any other unit. 

[Lord Krungharr]

The Depravity Pool should be changed to be depleted after summoning or doing whatever other effects they might have.  Don't all the other Daemon summoning and effects deplete their pools.?  I know Khorne does.  Would just be fair to change it to that.

[Carnith]

Only blood tithe does and everyone agrees it's awful. Let depravity be spent on summoning or buffs. Or let it be a stacking thing like Waaagh points that can be spent, but hitting thresholds grants buffs.

[CeleFAZE]

Less bookkeeping and less complication is something I'd be glad to see, personally. We need to lose the "but didn't die" aspect of depravity, as it doesn't even really make sense from a background perspective, as numerous sources note that killing and dying both are sensations Slaanesh followers derive extreme pleasure from.

If I were to redesign it, we'd gain a point the first time a unit deals damage in a phase as well as the first time a unit receives damage in a phase. This gives us extra generation from chariots, spellcasters, and archers, and encourages aggressive play and tactical sacrificial use of chaff.

Buffs for depravity should be on multiples of six, and be something like:

6 - 5+ damage shrug for a single friendly Slaanesh unit for a phase

12 - re-roll hits for d3 friendly Slaanesh units until next your next hero phase

18 - Until your next hero phase all friendly Slaanesh units can run and charge, if they already can do so they automatically roll max for their run rolls

24 - Euphoric killers occurs on unmodified 5+ for all friendly slaanesh units until your next hero phase. (if ranged units don't already have access to exploding hits they gain it on unmodified 6's).

30 - All friendly Slaanesh units can be chosen to attack first before enemy units until the end of the combat phase.

36 - D6 friendly Slaanesh units benefit from all of the above.

It's not perfect and probably far from balanced, but I'd be thrilled to see options like this.

[NorthernNurgling]

Do you think the new battletome will update any warscrolls for the existing Hedonites range aka the Broken Realms treatment?

I love the idea of causing enough pain to summon daemonettes or seekers to the battlefield, but I don't see what they will add if we have access to those gorgeous Myrmidesh/Symbraresh and Slickblade dudes. I know Slaanesh daemons are fast but they also look like min sized units (i.e. what you could summon) would get blown away by anything bigger than a Sneaky Snuffler... 

 

P.S. best loadout for a Keeper of Secrets? The one I "found" in my garage is fully painted except for his/her? left arm because I can't decide. My band of freaks and perverts will be going up against Orruk Warclans predominantly...

[Enoby]

32 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

Do you think the new battletome will update any warscrolls for the existing Hedonites range aka the Broken Realms treatment?

I love the idea of causing enough pain to summon daemonettes or seekers to the battlefield, but I don't see what they will add if we have access to those gorgeous Myrmidesh/Symbraresh and Slickblade dudes. I know Slaanesh daemons are fast but they also look like min sized units (i.e. what you could summon) would get blown away by anything bigger than a Sneaky Snuffler... 

 

P.S. best loadout for a Keeper of Secrets? The one I "found" in my garage is fully painted except for his/her? left arm because I can't decide. My band of freaks and perverts will be going up against Orruk Warclans predominantly...

While we can't say for certain, I think all the daemon warscrolls will be at least looked at. I imagine, if depravity gets the rework we're desperate for, the point of daemonettes will be to be a horde unit in big groups or to be summonable from our mortal troops as support. So if they're free with summoning from troops, they become extras to get in the way of charges or stand on objectives when we want our better units to move off.  We can usually summon them in big units too, and they could become an offensive tool then. 

The best loadout for a KoS at the moment is the Claw by quite a bit, but this may change with the battletome

[CeleFAZE]

1 hour ago, NorthernNurgling said:

Do you think the new battletome will update any warscrolls for the existing Hedonites range aka the Broken Realms treatment?

I love the idea of causing enough pain to summon daemonettes or seekers to the battlefield, but I don't see what they will add if we have access to those gorgeous Myrmidesh/Symbraresh and Slickblade dudes. I know Slaanesh daemons are fast but they also look like min sized units (i.e. what you could summon) would get blown away by anything bigger than a Sneaky Snuffler... 

 

P.S. best loadout for a Keeper of Secrets? The one I "found" in my garage is fully painted except for his/her? left arm because I can't decide. My band of freaks and perverts will be going up against Orruk Warclans predominantly...

I think it's fair to assume that there will be at least some changes. I expect we may actually see a rebalancing of the KoS's secondary weapons, as the hand right now is so much better than the others that there's really very little comparison. If you can magnetize it I would highly recommend it, as we really have no way of knowing at the moment.

As for what kind of changes? I don't expect we'll see a huge shuffling of roles, as most of the new stuff looks like it would be fundamentally different from what we currently have. We already have a horde-y close combat unit with daemonettes, and I think they'll still be a fast, blender-y battleline, seekers will remain the fastest non-flying cavalry in the game, and chariots of all varieties will probably not change significantly from where they are now. Fiends could likely change somewhat, as right now they're kind of an unfocused unit that just does a lot of really different things and not particularly well. I'd venture a guess that the updated warscroll cards from Shadow and Pain are identical to what's in the new book for all units involved, so hellstriders will still function as targeted chaff or combat support as they are now. As it stands, I think the roles as they are for existing units aren't going to drastically change, though I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some option that unlocks hellstriders as battleline. I think we'll probably see more host-related battleline unlocks, and with both Sigvald and the symbaresh touching upon the theme of mortals and daemons I think the Syll'Esskan Host will be renamed and rebalanced to exist as a new baseline host.

As for the new units and what roles they'll be adding to our repertoire, we can only wildly speculate. As nothing more than a guess for all of these, I think the myrmadesh and symbaresh will both be heavily armored with a 4+ save, and from the underworlds warband I think we can extrapolate that the myrmadesh will have either a 4+ or 5+ damage shrug, while symbaresh will have a number of different weapon profiles which will prove either tricky and strange, or they'll be a garbage option that's unfocused and outclassed. Nothing to go by on this but what we've seen in the past in other forces. The archers are self explanatory and while I think we'll probably have some kind of mechanic based on the homonculus, it could either be as simple as providing re-rolls, or something as robust as the stances that the big ossiarch infantry can use, with multiple options that could prove interesting. Slaangors can presumably act as monstrous infantry beatsticks, likely with -2 rend, which we don't have terribly much of at present. The large cavalry with spears will probably be 3-5 wounds apiece, with some bonus to damage/rend on the charge (making them basically stronger hellstriders), while the archer cavalry will have roughly the same base stats (presumably with less armor due to the lack of shields) and the same bows the foot archers have without any of the homonculus buffs. I imagine the shardspeaker will be a debuffing wizard, possibly with some kind of ability that affects enemy units in addition to whatever warscroll spell they get. Sigvald will probably be mostly an anti-hero beatstick with some kind of interesting command ability, while Glutos is probably going to be a really weird unit that has some kind of strange buff and/or debuff mechanic in addition to his warscroll spell.

Edited January 6, 2021 by CeleFAZE

[NorthernNurgling]

I don't understand where the Blissbarb Seekers will fit in. Going off the Dread Pageant profile, we'd be looking at 2 attacks each at 4's and 4's, and it stands to reason they will be much less effective than the Lumineth Sentinels for instance. That works fine for blobs of 10 or 20, especially if they get to dip their arrows in drugs for shenanigans. But 5 of them mounted without any poisons will just tickle.

Again, I love the idea of mounted archers thematically, but I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't prefer 5 of the melee variant against 5 of the archer variant. I could only really see them working if they had a similar profile to the old Ellyrian Reavers (forgot the legacy unit name) where they had 3 attacks each and had a "flee-and-fire" option to really harass slower units.

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

I don't understand where the Blissbarb Seekers will fit in. Going off the Dread Pageant profile, we'd be looking at 2 attacks each at 4's and 4's, and it stands to reason they will be much less effective than the Lumineth Sentinels for instance. That works fine for blobs of 10 or 20, especially if they get to dip their arrows in drugs for shenanigans. But 5 of them mounted without any poisons will just tickle.

Again, I love the idea of mounted archers thematically, but I can't think of a scenario where I wouldn't prefer 5 of the melee variant against 5 of the archer variant. I could only really see them working if they had a similar profile to the old Ellyrian Reavers (forgot the legacy unit name) where they had 3 attacks each and had a "flee-and-fire" option to really harass slower units.

To take a guess, the Seeker variant may have a better bow or better poison - and perhaps more shots. 

If the on foot archers have 2 attacks at 4/4/-1/1 damage and 6s are mortal wounds (guessing from Underworlds), they'll be a bit better than base Lumineth archers thanks to the second attack. If the mounted variants have rapid fire and better aim, we could be looking at something like 6 attacks 3/4/-1/1 with 6s being d3 mortal wounds instead and some bonus for running and shooting. 

These are just made up numbers of course, but more trying to demonstrate how they could have a different role of more mobile missiles that want to get into position to snipe.

That said, you're right that they could muck it up and just have fast move but the same attack profile, putting them in some weird hybrid slot where you're better putting another unit, but we can hope.

[Overread]

A big part depends on the role GW sees for them. Right now a lot of the cavalry Hedonites already have is reasonably expensive as it stands, though it is demonic and could be summoned. The new mortal additions mostly seem to be a mix of elites and fodder troops. Archers could split into the two; with the foot version being more grunt style and coming in larger numbers; whilst the cavalry version could be more elite even up to "sniper" status. But it really depends what price point (points) and what role they envision seeing the different units fit into. 

 

The new armoured foot soldiers appear to be aimed at giving us Slaanesh style chaos warriors and chaos chosen warriors so I'd expect them to hit hard and be very much on the elite side

[NorthernNurgling]

17 minutes ago, Overread said:

A big part depends on the role GW sees for them. Right now a lot of the cavalry Hedonites already have is reasonably expensive as it stands, though it is demonic and could be summoned. The new mortal additions mostly seem to be a mix of elites and fodder troops. Archers could split into the two; with the foot version being more grunt style and coming in larger numbers; whilst the cavalry version could be more elite even up to "sniper" status. But it really depends what price point (points) and what role they envision seeing the different units fit into. 

 

The new armoured foot soldiers appear to be aimed at giving us Slaanesh style chaos warriors and chaos chosen warriors so I'd expect them to hit hard and be very much on the elite side

It looks like the armoured guys come will be sold in boxes of 5 so elite makes sense for them.

 

Returning to the archers, I don't think GW could reasonably make Blissbarbs better than Sentinels. The Sentinels are centuries old elves dedicated to archery blah blah, but Blissbarbs are described as being the lowest rung of the Hedonites… I'd be amazed if they had the MW mechanic that Sentinels do.  I think it would make more sense for them to have more shots with less effectiveness (thinking more like Savage Orruk Archers) and the poison applies a debuff to the unit. So if you pepper a unit with 20 shots from 10 archers, you don't do a heap of damage BUT that unit is -1 to hit in combat until next turn. You could then have a playstyle where the archers primarily debuff targets units. There'd be some nice combos - reduce hit on something just before you throw your Slaangors at it, or half the movement of a block of infantry and let your faster units run rings around it, you could give casting debuffs to wizards you poisoned...

Just my imagination conjuring this up, but it would give Blissbarbs a unique niche role, making them stand out from other missile units.

Edited January 6, 2021 by NorthernNurgling

[Carnith]

I will expect some changes with our units depending on the changes to mechanics. I don't think many of our units are terrible, its just that they don't fit a spot within our army because of current Depravity. Friends might see play if the mechanics shift and more unit options are there. Fiends were viable before at 160 and when our heroes couldn't generate depravity from being mortally wounded. They became something to hunt down big targets that you didn't want to risk heroes on, whereas now... send the hero! who cares how they die for the most part, you'll get depravity out of it. 

Personally though, some things I would enjoy some buffs to minor heralds to make them somewhat attractive. I dunno what you can really do for the herald to make them a more attractive choice.

[Overread]

Good news - I've nearly finished the models from Shadow and Pain for Slaanesh (save for the Hellflayers where I'm waiting to see what the new tome does to them.

Further good news - my second box of Shadow and Pain is shipping and should arrive any day

Bad news - I've run out of "Corner Gas" episodes to watch whilst building the second box when it arrives. 

 

[Gibs]

I just hope that they modify depravity enough to make mortals a viable play style and Sigvald significantly beefy that KoS have an alternative....even if he is a unique character. 

[NorthernNurgling]

1 hour ago, Gibs said:

I just hope that they modify depravity enough to make mortals a viable play style and Sigvald significantly beefy that KoS have an alternative....even if he is a unique character. 

If depravity was to stay as it is, the mortals would benefit from it. If the Myrmidesh/Symbaresh are Chaos Warrior equivalents you'd expect them to have 2 wounds. The Seeker cavalry will have 2 wounds minimum, possibly 3. The Slaangor will definitely be multi-wound... The depravity points would pour in!

[Enoby]

32 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

If depravity was to stay as it is, the mortals would benefit from it. If the Myrmidesh/Symbaresh are Chaos Warrior equivalents you'd expect them to have 2 wounds. The Seeker cavalry will have 2 wounds minimum, possibly 3. The Slaangor will definitely be multi-wound... The depravity points would pour in!

Unfortunately if Depravity points stay as is, these new mortals will net us 0 of them as they're only gained from our Heroes. 

If they change depravity to come from any unit (so it works the same as it does now, but no hero restriction) most of the new mortals will benefit, but the single wound ones would struggle a bit (that said, they're likely to be out of combat anyway so it may not matter too much).

I think they need to look again at Depravity as a mechanic so it's less selective of our troops. I'm not entirely sure what they could do, but something that encourages a playstyle rather than list composition.

[Overread]

Well considering the last release for Slaanesh was basically all new heroes and the depravity was all about heroes perhaps this time it will be "Depravity is generated only by "mortal" Hedonite models". Suddenly making the best armies all mortals and no demons

I really hope GW doesn't do that; that they realise depravity as it is now is a bad mechanic within the army and between armies and they revise it in a big way. I hope its the case because I want an army that's fun and diverse to play with and against. I don't want the army that's glared at by Stormcast and Ogor players and see the Skaven player swap from their Skyre army to swarm army just to avoid depravity; nor do I want one where there's only one trick and one build combo in the book which writes off most of the rest of the models. 

 

I want fiends to have a place; for chariot and seeker focused armies to be a thing; for deamonettes to be worth more than just the battleline tax; for mortals to have their own strengths and weaknesses. I want to be able to field all demon; all seeker; all mortal; mixed up; all keeper type armies freely with modest shifts in power and focus between each one. 

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Well considering the last release for Slaanesh was basically all new heroes and the depravity was all about heroes perhaps this time it will be "Depravity is generated only by "mortal" Hedonite models". Suddenly making the best armies all mortals and no demons

I totally agree with what else you've said, but I would kind of find it funny if they did this - not good in any way, but more just incredibly brazen from GW to just admit they're trying to sell us new stuff with rules

My biggest concern, besides not changing Depravity, is we get a Slaves to Darkness like book with loads of options, but most don't work with your own allegiance ability and only one unit is really worth taking most of the time.  I've played Slaves a bit and it feels like playing half an allegiance ability that's pretty much always worse than the normal Slaanesh allegiance. I mention Slaves because they're relatively new and also have a large roster that may struggle to work together. While we won't go to much into power creep, I think it's fair to say that battletomes tend to be good when new, but you occasionally get a few poor ones. 

The other concern is we get the Sylvaneth/Khorne treatment where they update the battletome but change very little except the fun stuff. I don't think this is *too* likely given that we're adding a lot of models, but still you never know. 

[Carnith]

I really just want to make sure our go to damage dealing unit isn't 40 marauders over 3 units. Marauders are seriously too strong and frankly a mistake in design. They are still one of the top damage dealing units in the army simply because they are on 25mm bases, have rend, can get access to full reroll hits/wounds/saves, easy access to fight twice, and charge at a minimum in 8 inches (or 9 in god seekers). Like, they're a great unit, but they easily over shadow nearly everything else when they are accessible.

I want our mortals to be good and the desirable way to play the army, not "oh yeah you can take some myrmadesh for objective holding, but marauders go forth and kill, blissbarbs are a waste of points and lord of pain and shardspeaker are really just not worth it, so might as well take chaos lord and sorc to support those marauders" 

[NorthernNurgling]

On the topic of Marauders... Has anyone thought of any Slaanesh-y conversions for these guys? I was looking at just proxying Splintered Fang but I'd rather have the equipment on the models match the warscroll.

[Carnith]

My thought was witch elves, though its not a cheap option by any means. 

Flails - Whip from SoS and knife (cause they can't take shields)

Axes - Knife and Shield 

The thing is also you need to make sure your models are on 25s since thats what marauders are on, which kinda throws you back to old world stuff that is still on 25s. 

[NorthernNurgling]

5 minutes ago, Carnith said:

My thought was witch elves, though its not a cheap option by any means. 

Flails - Whip from SoS and knife (cause they can't take shields)

Axes - Knife and Shield 

The thing is also you need to make sure your models are on 25s since thats what marauders are on, which kinda throws you back to old world stuff that is still on 25s. 

I liked the idea of kitbashing Shadow Warriors with the crested heads and shields/whips from the Hellstriders but again, not cheap! If I do though, I'll be sure to post the pics

[Overread]

49 minutes ago, NorthernNurgling said:

On the topic of Marauders... Has anyone thought of any Slaanesh-y conversions for these guys? I was looking at just proxying Splintered Fang but I'd rather have the equipment on the models match the warscroll.

Splintered Fang and Unmade - job done.

Honestly I don't know why GW kept the marauder models and didn't just drop them and give the warbands the mark so that they could get bonuses from things like the warshrine. As models they are miles ahead of the Marauders and they are flavourful and fit the exact same unit slot and role. 

 

Honestly if I get around to doing slaves properly I'll just use warbands and not bother with Marauders - even if the only statistically best is Iron Golems. 

[Lucentia]

When I was floating the idea of succumbing to bringing in Marauders into my Hedonites collection I was considering using the Blood Bowl wood elves as the basis for conversions, they're suitably fancy with good, dynamic poses, just need weapons and a few headswaps, and they're 16 models to a box so slightly more usable for a horde unit than the warcry bands.

Buuut I'm ever hopeful that we won't have to rely in marauders for long, having one warscroll be the strongest pick in, like, 4 separate armies is not ideal.