Jump to content

AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


HERO

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, carnith said:

The problem with assuming full rerolls is that... Lord of Pain ain't reaching them anytime soon. I kinda wish we got our banners back from before the tome. Or make it so whips have the banner and spears have the icon and make them do different things. As it is right now, you can't have both with one kit, so might as well make them something useful. 

Overall, now I end up shelving my hellstriders, they were battleline for the purpose of capturing objectives and being quick, now they aren't battleline. Going back to daemonettes or finally buying warriors. Maybe in Slaanesh 2.0, we get some mortal factions and hellstriders are back with some buffs, but they just feel... so lackluster now. 

Yeah its a reach, they just aren't worth taking unfortunately. GW really have dismantled that list from Q2 2019 brick by brick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Unfortunately marauder horsemen are only battleline in Slaves to Darkness. We've basically lost our crown as the force with the fastest battleline objective grabbers, which really runs counter to our previous role. I'm really hoping it's an oversight, but I don't expect that to be the case.

Dang, you're right, totally forgot they're conditional battleline. That's a real kick in the teeth... i guess it's pretty much down to daemonettes and marauders then.

 

13 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

As to the hellscourges, I actually don't really see the multiple attacks as something to capitalize on, and I'll probably be running a few small units of both, with hellscourges as basically a defensive debuff where I need it on the charge and the spears as an extra punch for my larger melee blocks. Daemonettes at 300 make it far more worthwhile to have a large block of 30 to lock opponents into melee and be our primary damage dealers, with small units of hellstriders running around to provide support as needed where we need it. If the hellscourge bonus lasted longer than the turn you charged it would be worth it to run big squads of hellscourges as an anvil, but I'm not convinced that would be as useful as it seems.

I don't know, focusing on the -1 to hit might be a mistake. I'm not saying that the hellstriders should be primary damage dealers but I think there's still potential with the scourges for some sort of offensive role. Each model is making 4 attacks at 3+/4+ and exploding sixes. Even without rend that puts out a pretty significant number of wounds. Combine that with their significant base speed and the ability to re-roll charges and I think you have a really solid unit for threatening backlines. A unit of 10 isn't terribly expensive and they could be used to swing around the flank for a turn and target objective holders or backline support characters. They'll put out about 16 wounds before saves, which is pretty solid for blending through lighter units and characters. Their tankiness on the charge helps in that role too since you probably won't be able to get a locus generator that far into the back field. Obviously they aren't perfect but I still think there's something there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Grimrock said:

Dang, you're right, totally forgot they're conditional battleline. That's a real kick in the teeth... i guess it's pretty much down to daemonettes and marauders then.

 

I don't know, focusing on the -1 to hit might be a mistake. I'm not saying that the hellstriders should be primary damage dealers but I think there's still potential with the scourges for some sort of offensive role. Each model is making 4 attacks at 3+/4+ and exploding sixes. Even without rend that puts out a pretty significant number of wounds. Combine that with their significant base speed and the ability to re-roll charges and I think you have a really solid unit for threatening backlines. A unit of 10 isn't terribly expensive and they could be used to swing around the flank for a turn and target objective holders or backline support characters. They'll put out about 16 wounds before saves, which is pretty solid for blending through lighter units and characters. Their tankiness on the charge helps in that role too since you probably won't be able to get a locus generator that far into the back field. Obviously they aren't perfect but I still think there's something there.

My major issue with relying on hellstriders to do damage is that seekers just do all of it better. The only thing hellstriders have above seekers is a small edge in survivability, weighted against a significant decrease in offense and mobility.  I think they're far more valuable as mobile speedbumps and objective grabbers, which is a role they were far better at doing when they could serve a dual purpose as battleline tax. With these changes we're even further into the same situation we've been in since the start: we have a wealth of choices that all do the same thing, but some of those choices are simply much better and efficient at those things.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

My major issue with relying on hellstriders to do damage is that seekers just do all of it better. The only thing hellstriders have above seekers is a small edge in survivability, weighted against a significant decrease in offense and mobility.  I think they're far more valuable as mobile speedbumps and objective grabbers, which is a role they were far better at doing when they could serve a dual purpose as battleline tax. With these changes we're even further into the same situation we've been in since the start: we have a wealth of choices that all do the same thing, but some of those choices are simply much better and efficient at those things.

Yeah honestly I was thinking seekers might do the work better as well, but the hellstriders still have some advantages. The scourges are much better at attacking lone support heroes as they enable an extra rank of attacks, and the extra survivability also helps if they get caught out while flanking. I know they're not great at what they do but I guess I'm just trying to say I like their current form more than their previous one. Although that isn't really saying much haha.

Still I agree there isn't much point taking them. I've been trying to make seekers work for a long time and I've never really had any clear success so I can't imagine the scourges will somehow suddenly make everything better. I really have no idea what kind of list I'd want to write at this point anyway, nothing is particularly exciting or motivating. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All my lists started with 3x5 Hellstriders as my Battleline tax, and when I say all my lists, I mean every single Slaanesh list I've run both at a tournament level and a casual level. I do have 30 Daemonettes (which I'd bought for summoning) and 30 Chaos Warriors I can substitute in, but dangit...this change sucks, there's no two ways about it. We no longer have a truly mobile screening Battleline choice. I didn't mind the points increase in the GHB, and I appreciate the warscroll changes, but this really sucks. Good thing my 20 Hellstriders are converted Seekers so I can try a Seeker bomb, I guess? :/

 

Dunno what to do about the Battleline conundrum, as I play herohammer-Slaanesh often with 2 Keepers; heroes are what drew me to the army, and are ultimately what the allegiance rules reward you for investing in - which really pidgeon-holes us into a certain playstyle. I'm thinking 3x10 Daemonette units is probably the way I'll go, 3x5 Chaos Warriors is the cheaper and tougher option but they cover less ground for screening purposes - which ultimately is all I really want out of my Battleline now, I think. 

Edited by Jaskier
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Knowing what we do about the Newborn and that the Hedonites have flocked to it I wonder if we'll get an update to Allegiance abilities in the Slaanesh Broken Realms book. If they're flocking there they're not Godseeking or Pretending anymore (or perhaps they are but with renewed vigour because the Newborn threatens their hold on their power) so at least it means a new Host but if they're all together it would be a great opportunity to address how depravity works. I would imagine in the presence of something like the Newborn it could easily be the case that even the rank and file become conduits for Depravity... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey All,

sorry  if I Jump in like this but I have a question about depravity points and wasn't able to find an answer 😅

How does the generation works for multi-damage weapons?
Like:

I'm attacking a 3wounds model with a 3dmg weapon.

1 atk is not saved and 3dmgs are dealed, killing a model. Do I receive 2 points or none as I oneshot the model? And why?

 

Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In your example you'd receive 2 Depravity points. It takes 2 wounds that don't kill it generating 2 Depravity points. Because the 3rd wound kills the model it doesn't generate a depravity point.

If you had caused 3 separate wounds with a 1 Damage weapon you'd generate the same 2 depravity points from this model for the same reasoning as above.

It's about how many non-fatal wounds a model takes and doesn't matter how many attacks it takes to dish them out as long as they're coming from a Hero or inflicted on one of our Heroes. 

Edited by Elazar The Glorified
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

In your example you'd receive 2 Depravity points. It takes 2 wounds that don't kill it generating 2 Depravity points. Because the 3rd wound kills the model it doesn't generate a depravity point.

If you had caused 3 separate wounds with a 1 Damage weapon you'd generate the same 2 depravity points from this model for the same reasoning as above.

It's about how many non-fatal wounds a model takes and doesn't matter how many attacks it takes to dish them out as long as they're coming from a Hero or inflicted on one of our Heroes. 

Great, thank you a lot!
I went reading again the base rules and actually read again how to allocate wounds. I totally forgot you had to allocate wound one at a time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/10/2020 at 4:34 AM, CeleFAZE said:

I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, it definitely encourages running multiple smaller units, on the other hand it sort of runs counter to the benefits of the seeker cavalcade battalion. Combined with the removal of the battleline status, it's a pretty significant departure from where they stood previously in our repertoire. 

I suspect it is to make them different from Seekers which do get it.  TBH it feels like a good elite unit ability and I was surprised to see an BL unit get bonus attacks.  Did they officially lose BL?  oof. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

I suspect it is to make them different from Seekers which do get it.  TBH it feels like a good elite unit ability and I was surprised to see an BL unit get bonus attacks.  Did they officially lose BL?  oof. 

They did. I'm hoping it's either a typo, or something that will make more sense in the context of whatever changes we're getting in the next campaign book. Also maybe it'll make more sense after this weekend's reveal?

We're in such a weird place as an army. I think GW realizes that the depravity system as currently written isn't conducive to us utilizing all the cool stuff we have, and we're in for a significant rewrite when the next update comes down the pipeline. There's a good chance that with the recent plot developments (I'll refrain from posting spoilers) that our hosts may change to new names and structures to reflect what's going on.

Edited by CeleFAZE
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CeleFAZE said:

They did. I'm hoping it's either a typo, or something that will make more sense in the context of whatever changes we're getting in the next campaign book. Also maybe it'll make more sense after this weekend's reveal?

We're in such a weird place as an army. I think GW realizes that the depravity system as currently written isn't conducive to us utilizing all the cool stuff we have, and we're in for a significant rewrite when the next update comes down the pipeline. There's a good chance that with the recent plot developments (I'll refrain from posting spoilers) that our hosts may change to new names and structures to reflect what's going on.

I worry it's mostly just,. "here are a few models" rather than "hey here is something significant with information.  I guess the key is Pete Foley's whiteboard. 

100%  in a weird place.   Overeads comments about the army are fairly on point.  At this point re-writing how depravity was generated would be amazing.  I want to use my army of daemonettes, chariots and fiends.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's hoping for a book 2 with updated warscrolls and more sensible abilities. The Euphoric killers rule is great. Depravity and the hero mechanic make our army too hero focused that taking any other troop that isn't battleline to focus on heroes is then seen as bad. And if we end up wanting to move away from hero hammer, our choices currently in book are just okay, not phenominal for what we end up paying. I'd like to see a return to a more balanced force where you want to take units. Give some buff to heroes, perhaps keep locus, but making some shift to letting other units generate depravity in other ways. 

Fiends are not great, you want them to be an anvil, but they don't do the job as they lack mw and ranged defence. Their attacks are weak. You want them to go after big targets for essentially medieval lascannon shots, but that takes away from our depravity. Also so get close to getting fiends in a good defensive spot, its 380 points, when you could just take a keeper for the same cost, who has a strong defensive ability in locus and can generate summoning. These models either need a boost in offensive capabilities. I would either see damage 2 base, with 6's to wound being something different and allowing fiends to be in the epicurean reveller's detachment to actually get some benefit. Or if their intention was to keep fiends swingy, again allow fiends to actually benefit (so d3 mw).

We have seekers which while fast, do hit somewhat hard with a lot of attacks, but the downside is their base size. The cav base makes them hard to get in all of their attacks, so you must spread them out, which might mean tagging more things that you wanted and then you have this incredibly large footprint that might get permastuck in not piling in, or being forced to spread out more. To alleviate this, then you have to send them in in more of a blob, which just ends up lowing their offensive capabilities. While awkward to try to get the max of euphoric killers, they actually are decent and since hellstriders lost battleline, these girls will probably do better, though a way to get them battleline would be ideal.

Daemonettes are very squishy at only a 5+ save, but do have run and charge. The 4+/4+ profile is just okay, with euphoric killers meant to effectively make it a 2+/4+, but the lack of wounds modifiers and an expensive battalion does hurt them. Going back to 100/270 would be ideal and perhaps battalion down. 

Hellstriders as non-battleline seem they could've done a little more. Personally claw spears at 2 attacks with 2 damage charges at 120-130 would've been fine, rolling 6 attacks that will do little damage is just okay. Whips could've been back to the -1 to hit fest as a support unit. Let claw spears be shock cav with a good amount of attacks and let whips just be there to hit light infantry and be annoying.

Normal chariots end up I feel being taken often due to wanting to take the hero versions, though, I could see regular seeker chariots taken for god seekers, if that survive into new books.

I'm not personally married to any of this, but just spitballing some ideas to get slaanesh feeling better with us using more of the awesome models that many of us bought. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't be betting on anything to drastic to be honest. If they're going to follow the standard pattern from Psychic Awakening I'd expect a new host and a battalion or two. We've already gotten a new hero model and some reworked warscrolls in Shadow and Pain which is probably all we're getting that regard, and I definitely don't think we'll be getting a new book or a totally revamped depravity system. I'd be happy to be wrong but I'd be wary about getting my hopes up beyond the usual tweaks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I wouldn't be betting on anything to drastic to be honest. If they're going to follow the standard pattern from Psychic Awakening I'd expect a new host and a battalion or two. We've already gotten a new hero model and some reworked warscrolls in Shadow and Pain which is probably all we're getting that regard, and I definitely don't think we'll be getting a new book or a totally revamped depravity system. I'd be happy to be wrong but I'd be wary about getting my hopes up beyond the usual tweaks. 

I always temper my hopes versus my expectations of GW. For this reveal I'm hoping we see 2-4 units of mortals/slaangors, with 1-2 new heroes. I'm actually expecting they'll have some kind of tagline like "NEW REINFORCEMENTS FOR SLAANESH!" and show off a multipart box of the chaos warriors from the start collecting set.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We should also remember that the Hedonites book is effectively version 1.0 for Slaanesh. After being ignored more or less for the whole of the switch from Fantasy to AoS there wasn't a book and we got a really good deal to start with in 2.0 but like many people I'd have loved to have had mortals too, but I think we may see some of that on saturday. *fingers crossed* and Depravity and our book was ridiculously OP from day 1, it's just sad that the nerfbat swung so hard, so fast and so frequently that by the time it was finished, new armies had come out and the hideous pile of deformed flesh that had been the glorious work of the Dark Prince was now...... less so. 

For me the easiest fix would be to make depravity army wide and hike the summoning costs. All of a sudden we want to be taking units again, it would open up Fiends as a choice (I love the models for these and have 6 of the new ones and I'd love to use them). Add in some more mortal units as well as with the new lore I can see Slaanesh being on the rise. Not to being the OP tourney army of the past, but hopefully not the whipping boys/girls/whatever to any army that doesn't need to be in melee to do damage. I'd love to mono-dex without having to rely on Beasts or StD to get some decent units in. 

New Daemonette models would be my ultimate fantasy come true though lol. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

We should also remember that the Hedonites book is effectively version 1.0 for Slaanesh. After being ignored more or less for the whole of the switch from Fantasy to AoS there wasn't a book and we got a really good deal to start with in 2.0 but like many people I'd have loved to have had mortals too, but I think we may see some of that on saturday. *fingers crossed* and Depravity and our book was ridiculously OP from day 1, it's just sad that the nerfbat swung so hard, so fast and so frequently that by the time it was finished, new armies had come out and the hideous pile of deformed flesh that had been the glorious work of the Dark Prince was now...... less so. 

For me the easiest fix would be to make depravity army wide and hike the summoning costs. All of a sudden we want to be taking units again, it would open up Fiends as a choice (I love the models for these and have 6 of the new ones and I'd love to use them). Add in some more mortal units as well as with the new lore I can see Slaanesh being on the rise. Not to being the OP tourney army of the past, but hopefully not the whipping boys/girls/whatever to any army that doesn't need to be in melee to do damage. I'd love to mono-dex without having to rely on Beasts or StD to get some decent units in. 

New Daemonette models would be my ultimate fantasy come true though lol. 

 

To reduce bookkeeping, I would personally like to see depravity changed to the first time a unit takes or deals damage in a phase, regardless of whether or not it's a killing blow. The summoning points would probably need to be revisited, but it would be a more streamlined system that rewards aggressive, reckless play. Something like that allows all of our units to shine and really plays to the lore of the army, all of our units should be rushing in to get in on the revelry.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, carnith said:

Here's hoping for a book 2 with updated warscrolls and more sensible abilities. The Euphoric killers rule is great. Depravity and the hero mechanic make our army too hero focused that taking any other troop that isn't battleline to focus on heroes is then seen as bad.

... 

Fiends are not great, you want them to be an anvil, but they don't do the job as they lack mw and ranged defence. Their attacks are weak.

...

We have seekers which while fast, do hit somewhat hard with a lot of attacks, but the downside is their base size.

The two rules of Depravity and Euphoric killers are two different and slightly contradictory but complimentary mechanics for an army.  Depravity is for heroes and EK kicks in when you have 6A minimum (thus units, sure it's a nice bonus on a hero ).  I believe this was a Daemonette only rule pre-book and was shifted to army wide?  It still works on DAemonettes and after some farting aroudn with dice, even with only a 1" reach it makes more sense for Daemonenttes to be 20, but cripples them once you lose 1 (I guess if they get the Horde bonus back 30-large).  But what does 30 Daemonettes as BL give you?  They are maybe now in the realm of too hard to summon as 30 and focussing on summoning 10 on objectives means you don't get the 3A bonus.  

Fiends are a support unit. They have two debuffs?  I don't see them as an anvil to be honest.  I recall doing generic mathing their wound output and it feels on par with daemonettes.  The problem is what does that mean for them?

I think the only issue with Seekers is their points cost.  20 costs 1/4 your army and you need a Keeper so they hammer twice.  

It just feels like this book suffers an excess of contradictions.   

14 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

I always temper my hopes versus my expectations of GW. 

This is wise.  Helps avoid gutting disappointment.  maybe just accept we are the new Wood Elves.  waiting forever for releases, having a really high watermark on release then sinking back down to below the mire.  

7 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

We should also remember that the Hedonites book is effectively version 1.0 for Slaanesh.

 

It was sort of 1.5 or 1.75.  We had an initial release of warscrolls which to be honest had some good legs to them.  Then I think the GHB introducing the 3 factions and i believe depravity?  So we're in a sense a first release if we had two alpha releases.  But I agree with the people who say GW just pushed it really far into the realms of Hero kit sales.  

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but despite the name, I fear we won't be getting any mortals this preview. At first I was optimistic, but none of the teasers in the lead up really look like ours. 

I feel the same.  People overhype the hype GW hypes.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Popisdead said:

This is wise.  Helps avoid gutting disappointment.  maybe just accept we are the new Wood Elves.  waiting forever for releases, having a really high watermark on release then sinking back down to below the mire.  

We even have a model rode by two characters. This wasn't the comparison I was hoping for but it rings kinda true. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...