AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Popisdead]

Over the weekend a Slaanesh list placed 2nd in a tournament.  

I haven't been able to find much of an analysis about it other some general chatter on the honest wargamer.

Happy to see BL Daemonettes not suck.

[Golub87]

What army placed first?

As for Daemonettes, point for point, I found that Marauders outperform them by a huge margin.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Golub87

[azdimy]

I think the daemonettes are in the list solely for the extra D3 command points in that host. No reason to pay for them otherwise

Edited October 24, 2020 by azdimy

[5kaven5lave]

Sorry, I know this has been asked a bazillion times, but what’s considered the best weapon for a KoS? Hand for cheeky heals?

Edited October 25, 2020 by 5kaven5lave

[CeleFAZE]

45 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Sorry, I know this has been asked a bazillion times, but what’s considered the best weapon for a KoS? Hand for cheeky heals?

Generally the hand is seen as the best, for that reason: it helps keep you up on brackets and allows you a handful of extra depravity from incoming damage. Combined with the two healing spells you can stay in the fight just a bit longer.

However that list that placed second recently used the shield, so I think there may be some potential for the other options in the shooting-heavy meta, though I don't feel an immediate need to rebuild or magnetize my existing keepers.

Edited October 25, 2020 by CeleFAZE
autocorrect

[Popisdead]

On 10/23/2020 at 4:57 PM, azdimy said:

I think the daemonettes are in the list solely for the extra D3 command points in that host. No reason to pay for them otherwise

This is a depressing post and part of what's killing this thread.

On 10/23/2020 at 1:52 PM, Golub87 said:

What army placed first?

As for Daemonettes, point for point, I found that Marauders outperform them by a huge margin.

KO.  Also depressing.  I'm not running out and buying 80 models 20 years old that are terrible.  

 

How about when someone finds some success we don't bash on it?  sigh...

[Chumphammer]

Hello fellow soon to be followers of Morathislaanesh

I had a theory months ago and it still stands.

Morathi becomes the new Slaanesh. She wants to be a god and doesnt give a ****** how

Slaanesh is still imprisoned or MIA. Morathi was in WFB the original Cult of Slaanesh person.

Morathi escaped from Slaanesh, and has been biding her time to find a way to absorb Slaanesh.

Morathi breaks her allies to basically eat Slaanesh, and becomes the new chaos god and reforms the Cult of Slaanesh (hence which box set is DOK vs Slaanesh. Slaanesh side are tryin to stop her, fail and become her minions so you get to use both parts of the box set if you want as an army)

New temple is Zainthar Kai (or Cobra Kai  ) which is a snake temple

[Popisdead]

I would be quite surprised.  It would break the 40k lore and GW drops enough hints they are the same/parallel/mutli universe linked through the warp.  You can argue, in 40k Slaanesh wasn't imprisoned but there will be some timeline gap where you can just assume that happens (that's the basis of the 40k gist.  it's just that big).  Also with Lumineth mirroring Craftworld I see the two games aligning more than separating.  It's just too drastic a change (I don't think it would help to point to End Times about changing things either, AoS is following a pretty linear path of constant evolution).

I would be happy if somehow DoK got moved into some weird Chaos space post Broken Realms, and was able to ally with Slaanesh again from a personal hobby project.  I guess it all depends on what they do with Malarion and the Umbraneth (or whatever name GW accidentally posted for a few short hours) lore-wise as well.  I haven't done much a deep dive into Morathai fluff but does she remember she was duped for the entire timeline of the world-that-was and suckered as a pawn of Slaanesh?

Also DoK is very Helenistic (as a lot of AoS borrowing from Grecian lore)  not specifically snake like Slaanesh which is going away (a la no Dechala even on Build-to-order).  

I suspect her machinations will create a break or void or crack in a realm where Malarion pops out and AoS 3 shows up.  That part of the realm will just have a large geographical Mariana's trench hole or have some allusion to how Biel-tan is broken, just not as drastic.

[Carnith]

Marauders are a part of our army, unless you want to define the army as Hedonite keyword only. And as it currently stands, marauders are better than daemonettes. You can go buy any third party model you want to use as marauders as current marauders are ugly. But it's not depressing to understand that our basic troops offer nothing in the book that aren't outshined using legal unit choices, it's understanding that slaanesh has been nerfed and our non-hero hammer army is slaves with some daemon hero unit. 

[Cambot1231]

You mention that our basic daemonette/ battleline troops are outclassed by marauders  but there is hope for some Warscroll rewrites with the new Daughters v Slaanesh box.  IT would make sense to see our basic troops getting a bit of an overhaul.

[Overread]

The main problem the Slaanesh Tome has is that GW very clearly wanted us to buy Keepers and leaders. To the point that they went a bit nuts with depravity and now most power armies are basically all multi-wound leaders and a tax of infantry for battleline. As a tome it has very poor internal balance since basically deamonettes, chariots, seekers, fiends etc... are almost all written off by the sheer power of depravity generating multiwound leaders. 

It's why I've long thought the best fix would be to make depravity a universal trait generated by all Hedonite units and to remove its "wounds" restriction to any damage caused/taken. Then just adjust the costs table to better reflect the greater values the army would get as a result. 

 

Then consider empowering or adjusting unit stats; because right now even if you made deamonettes the best infantry in the game, they'd still be overshadowed by keepers. 

[Salyx]

You are right in that the Tome is not well Balance. However, due to the meta, multi-wound heroes, especially monsters have a hard time now. Nobody would play a Keeper-heavy list on a tournament, because against some armies like KO, Cities or Tzeentch, they do rarely last more than two turns. 

The current meta rather pushes into using either powerful tanky units in big sizes (like Fyreslayers) or go MSU, if you do not have such units(16 Cockatrice). Slaanesh in These Regards has some strong glass cannons from other books (Marauders, Bullgors, Bestigor), but needs Lurid Haze to get them safely into Combat. 

If you do not want to play These units, I think, the best way to go is a fast list bases on Seekers, Chariot and Fiends. However, with auch a list you are better off playing on Objectives, because your Power Level cannoz keep up. 

[5kaven5lave]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:46 PM, Chumphammer said:

Hello fellow soon to be followers of Morathislaanesh

I had a theory months ago and it still stands.

Morathi becomes the new Slaanesh. She wants to be a god and doesnt give a ****** how

Slaanesh is still imprisoned or MIA. Morathi was in WFB the original Cult of Slaanesh person.

Morathi escaped from Slaanesh, and has been biding her time to find a way to absorb Slaanesh.

Morathi breaks her allies to basically eat Slaanesh, and becomes the new chaos god and reforms the Cult of Slaanesh (hence which box set is DOK vs Slaanesh. Slaanesh side are tryin to stop her, fail and become her minions so you get to use both parts of the box set if you want as an army)

New temple is Zainthar Kai (or Cobra Kai  ) which is a snake temple

It’s a tricky one, I do like your theory though. Slaanesh’s prison is getting weaker so he’s gonna get out at some point. If they become one and the same that makes a lot of stuff very complicated. The story beat I’d love to see if what happens to DoK when they realise she’s stringing them along with all the blood sacrifice stuff. 

[5kaven5lave]

CyGhorgon KoS conversion done. Think he looks ok, wanted the censer for the cloying smoke mist stuff the Lurid Haze are wreathed in, put a little one on the skull staff of my Bray-Shaman too!!

[azdimy]

Looks great, I d recommend you put him on the proper kos base size (100mm round) before painting, I need to rebase my forgeworld keeper to play him as a regular keeper because the forgeworld warscroll is not worth it and rebasing those big painted center piece suck

[Golub87]

Played first game vs Gargants. Keepers are frighteningly effective in the match up and produce buckets of DP. I had 60+ in my second turn and from that point on chain summoning started. I felt bad for the other guy with his brand new army.

I was scared at first as we played a scenario where only heroes can capture objectives , but gargant player may choose to count models instead. Along with other objective control shenanigans like moving them, my impression is that they WILL control objectives so the only way to win is to kill them.

Their Longshanks rule, as written, does nothing, so just screen your Keepers and Manticores and make sure to get those charges.

My 1500 list was Faultless Blades,

 

Keeper with Living Whip (here is a matchup where the hand does nothing) and Sliverslash applied to pincers

Manticore Lord with Blade and Lance with Contemptuous Brand and Hunter of Godbeasts

Contorted Epitome

Infernal Enrapturess

5x Chaos Warriors

5x Chaos Warriors

5x Seekers of Slaanesh

 

He was running Warstomper with 2x3 Mancrushers

 

Overall I find that we will have no issue with the new army. Locus is an excellent counter and depravity generation is trough the roof. Getting spells off is also very easy.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Golub87

[Carnith]

So based on the preview.

The Slaaneshi Lord of Pain is so inured to agony that they have a chance to disregard any wounds. They also allow nearby Hedonites to re-roll hits as they seek to cause as much pain as possible.

So he likely has either a 5+++ or a 6+++. I doubt we're getting something like a 4+++ fnp. Do you think our reroll hits will be all hits? Or just reroll 1's. We really don't need another way for our units to reroll 1's.

[CeleFAZE]

8 hours ago, carnith said:

So based on the preview.

The Slaaneshi Lord of Pain is so inured to agony that they have a chance to disregard any wounds. They also allow nearby Hedonites to re-roll hits as they seek to cause as much pain as possible.

So he likely has either a 5+++ or a 6+++. I doubt we're getting something like a 4+++ fnp. Do you think our reroll hits will be all hits? Or just reroll 1's. We really don't need another way for our units to reroll 1's.

We already have both a 5+++ with the viceleader, and a 4+++ on the masque, so it could really be anywhere on that spectrum.

I'm hoping the "cause as much pain as possible" is some hint to an aura that allows other units to generate depravity, but I'm expecting we're just going to get a beatstick hero with a reroll 1's aura, which we have zero need for.

[Enoby]

By the sounds of it, we might just get a beatstick, which would suck. However, if he has some interaction with our battletome, it would be nice - for example, an aura of unit depravity, or an aura of double depravity (though a much smaller aura than the syllesske host, or just on himself). 

Reroll 1s would be useless considering how easy that is for us to do. Rerolling all hits would be nice - don't know if it would make the hellstriders any good, but you never know? If it worked on the mounts too, they'd be better than the average chaos warrior I guess? 

[5kaven5lave]

Am I right thinking that you can’t chain summon anymore because summoned heroes aren’t now considered heroes for army composition purposes? And the same with battleline for capping objectives?

[Enoby]

40 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Am I right thinking that you can’t chain summon anymore because summoned heroes aren’t now considered heroes for army composition purposes? And the same with battleline for capping objectives?

They're still heroes I'm pretty sure, just not leaders - so they don't count as leaders where that would give a bonus to objectives 

[Golub87]

10 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

We already have both a 5+++ with the viceleader, and a 4+++ on the masque, so it could really be anywhere on that spectrum.

I'm hoping the "cause as much pain as possible" is some hint to an aura that allows other units to generate depravity, but I'm expecting we're just going to get a beatstick hero with a reroll 1's aura, which we have zero need for.

If we get DP generating aura on a hero that is literally a game changer as we can run competitive troop heavy Slaanesh all of a sudden (yay for fiends)

[Popisdead]

On 10/30/2020 at 10:46 AM, Overread said:

The main problem the Slaanesh Tome has is that GW very clearly wanted us to buy Keepers and leaders. To the point that they went a bit nuts with depravity and now most power armies are basically all multi-wound leaders and a tax of infantry for battleline. As a tome it has very poor internal balance since basically deamonettes, chariots, seekers, fiends etc... are almost all written off by the sheer power of depravity generating multiwound leaders. 

It's why I've long thought the best fix would be to make depravity a universal trait generated by all Hedonite units and to remove its "wounds" restriction to any damage caused/taken. Then just adjust the costs table to better reflect the greater values the army would get as a result. 

 

Then consider empowering or adjusting unit stats; because right now even if you made deamonettes the best infantry in the game, they'd still be overshadowed by keepers. 

 

It would be good, and if we all email AoSFAQ@gwplc.com and explain what Overead here (and he explained it well and clearly which should be mimicked.  facts not emotion)  With the december FAQ out in  6 weeks -ish it could help our chances.  Who knows, GW may look at it and address the issue at some point.  Better chances than just us being salty here about it.  

The issue though is if Morathai is still angry at Slaanesh, then Slaanesh may have something in the upcoming Broken Realms books.  Especially with a new model, there could be stuff for Slaanesh so they may not want to do such a drastic change.

I think GW also handled Slaanesh poorly.  The idea of the Hero-hammer is unique.  They came out of the gate hard with a 69% win rate in tournaments, turned off regulars who just wanted a good balanced army, turned off people who had to face them, and then were nerfed before two shooting armies (CoS and Tzeetnch) had a chance to properly manifest due to covid.  To be honest I wonder if GW reversed the points back, and the depravity but removed the Sylle 'Eske battalion how would Slaanesh fair in a shooting meta but with bonkers Depravity generation.  They would have gross match ups vs say, Ogres, Behemoth, etc but maybe struggle vs CoS.

 

[Popisdead]

So the new Slaanesh hero has a 5+ Damage Prevention Role (DPR) which bounces MWs back.  

I wonder if it is unmodified 5+.  Are there still many mechanics to improve saves?  I don't recall if they were mostly Malign Sorcery artifacts or there were others available.  

[Grimrock]

43 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

So the new Slaanesh hero has a 5+ Damage Prevention Role (DPR) which bounces MWs back.  

I wonder if it is unmodified 5+.  Are there still many mechanics to improve saves?  I don't recall if they were mostly Malign Sorcery artifacts or there were others available.  

Based on the wording it would technically be a modified roll, but it isn't an armor save or anything. As far as I know there's nothing in the game that modifies damage prevention rolls in any way.

Also an interesting note, with all the artwork and the sprue pictures it's getting pretty likely that the chariot in the box is just a single kit instead of the double needed to create an exalted chariot. That hurts the value for me since I really have no interest in a single seeker chariot running around. I guess I'll be waiting the 6 months for the character to come out on his own.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Grimrock