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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Read back a few pages.  So far UK tournament players on podcasts are saying yes.

yeah... we will have to wait until further clarification on the term "unit"

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17 hours ago, Rod said:

yeah... we will have to wait until further clarification on the term "unit"

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Um no.  No one has in 5 years called a Battalion a unit.  

Certain people need clarification if the WD printed Battalions are still allowed being that this year's GHB didn't specifically exclude them.

Rules change year to year, as far as I'm concerned unless there is a printed FAQ saying "older battalions printed in WD that aren't in the current GHB are no longer allowed in Matched Play" they are fair game.  

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9 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Um no.  No one has in 5 years called a Battalion a unit.  

Certain people need clarification if the WD printed Battalions are still allowed being that this year's GHB didn't specifically exclude them.

Rules change year to year, as far as I'm concerned unless there is a printed FAQ saying "older battalions printed in WD that aren't in the current GHB are no longer allowed in Matched Play" they are fair game.  

 

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You could easily make the case for "unit" same rules than "batallion"  on ghb2029.

Anyway I was thinking on daemon steel contingent but I dont wanna fall for a "sell more models" stunt from GW.

 

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21 hours ago, Rod said:

You could easily make the case for "unit" same rules than "batallion"  on ghb2029.

Anyway I was thinking on daemon steel contingent but I dont wanna fall for a "sell more models" stunt from GW.

 

I guess we will wait and see unless that is a typo?

Well if you play 40k my understanding is Defilers/Soulgrinders are of better value though I have no experience personally to speak of.  I felt it was a bone to throw at Slaanesh for Mortals, etc before StD came out to give them an HoS mechanic.  

I'm assuming Daemonsteel is the Soulgrinder, I've toyed with it but I want to run it with Depraved Drove.  I used to run two Soulgrinders in 8th.

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1 minute ago, Popisdead said:

I guess we will wait and see unless that is a typo?

Well if you play 40k my understanding is Defilers/Soulgrinders are of better value though I have no experience personally to speak of.  I felt it was a bone to throw at Slaanesh for Mortals, etc before StD came out to give them an HoS mechanic.  

I'm assuming Daemonsteel is the Soulgrinder, I've toyed with it but I want to run it with Depraved Drove.  I used to run two Soulgrinders in 8th.

Yes daemon steel contingent is 3 soul grinders +1 to hit + 1 sv , super powerful.

In theory is my only answer to fyreslayer heart guard , snipe the sh*t out characters to null the absurd 4+ feel no pain

 

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Just now, Rod said:

Yes daemon steel contingent is 3 soul grinders +1 to hit + 1 sv , super powerful.

In theory is my only answer to fyreslayer heart guard , snipe the sh*t out characters to null the absurd 4+ feel no pain

 

Ah okay, right.  

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A new season, a new Army!

Yeah, spamming Deamonettes just isn't what it used to be.  Taking away the max unit discount really hurts them.  Still, a relevant battalion to get drops down and run+charge isn't nothing.  -1 Rend is still relevant even if there's a couple of hard counters running around (NH & LRL). 

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Daemonettes have been mostly outclassed for awhile. Being stuck on a 4+/4+ profile whereas other power hitting units we can bring in just do the job better (bestigors or marauders) and cheaper since the points nerf. What buffs they can get is costly, (190 battalion that gets them mw only on 6's to wound and costing around 60-85 points per squad for this buff is harsh unless you go in with a lot of chariots) whereas marauders just need one hero support piece in the chaos sorcerer to buff their damage into the stratosphere. Bestigors get the shaman to go with them for a buff piece so that they zoom across the board, and with the large amount of attacks, 32mm bases for them aren't really that bad with their pile in as well. Also going BoC, you do get to bring 3x10 ungor for cheap objective chaff that pure daemons don't get access to. 

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Slaanesh battleline used to be one of the best in the game some years ago, but now that all armies got new battletomes and the new warscrolls are heavily power creeped, that is no longer the case. They keep nerfing slaanesh troops points because of the DP the keepers can produce instead of fixing that issue in other way, i think Daemonettes are now one of the worst if not the worst battleline in the game (yes, i know there are some worst battleline options, but all armies got access to better battleline units). Part of Daemonettes being bad is that they baked the allegiance ability of exploding 6s into the point cost of the unit too. The only buff they got access to is rerolling 1s to hit. Meanwhile the other armies usually got 3+ to hit or 3+ to wound, -1 rend is now universal no longer the slaanesh theme, most battleline is 10 wounds with 4+ save, but Daemonettes got only 5+ save and that is quite huge, it mean they negate 1 out of every 3 wounds instead of 1 out of every 2 wounds, and once you take into account the universal -1 rend they are negating 1 out of 6 wounds instead of 1 out of 3. Other armies can further improve to hit, to wound, rend, numbers of attacks or damage per attack with command abilities and spells, but we cannot do any meaningful buff to daemonettes, they are outdated.

The problem is GW keep looking at the daemonettes the keeper of secrets summon and say "Yeah, those Daemonettes are busted, keep nerfing them." But the Daemonettes a Keeper of Secrets summon with DP and the ones you get in the army by paying their point cost are like two completely different units in term of balance, they should nerf the Keeper of Secrets and buff the Daemonettes.

I hope they rework depravity in the next editions of AoS. Would like to see the rule changed to "Every time a unit take a wound or mortal wound for the first time in every phase you get a depravity point" suddenly depravity get fixed and some things in the army that dosn't have too much value become viable (chariots generating 1 depravity in the charge phase, enrapturess generating 1 DP in the shooting phase, equiping your Keeper of Secrets with a whip to generate a DP in the shooting phase, no longer generating infinite DP with your keeper, being able to play a heavy troop list and still get DP...) And this compensate us a little when fighting armies with heavy magic or shooting, generating the extra depravity in the enemy hero phase and shooting phase.

Edited by Yoid
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Just like other battletomes, we have access to better battleline units. Hellstriders are better. If you take Slaanesh marked units from slaves to darkness. Marauders is you best battleline in Chaos and you can have them as battleline in our faction

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49 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Just like other battletomes, we have access to better battleline units. Hellstriders are better. If you take Slaanesh marked units from slaves to darkness. Marauders is you best battleline in Chaos and you can have them as battleline in our faction

I think hellstriders were balance and didn't deserve the nerf, they can only grab objectives at long distances, wich is not bad for 100 points. Marauders are probably really strong in slaanesh, that is true, even when they are not part of the battletome. They have been nerf recently too, but probably deserved. Still is not like the old times when we got access to the best of the best, the other battletomes power creeped over us while we get nerfs. What i stated is Daemonettes being really bad and the other options being considerably average in the power scale, not bad, but not specially good either.

There are pieces of slaanesh that are still broken, like the Keeper of Secrets, but i don't like the way GW keep nerfing everything instead of the broken pieces, the underpowered pieces need buffs too. At least Fiends have started their way to a reasonable point cost, still a long path to walk tho.

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On 7/24/2020 at 1:22 PM, Yoid said:

Slaanesh battleline used to be one of the best in the game some years ago, but now that all armies got new battletomes and the new warscrolls are heavily power creeped, that is no longer the case. They keep nerfing slaanesh troops points because of the DP the keepers can produce instead of fixing that issue in other way, i think Daemonettes are now one of the worst if not the worst battleline in the game (yes, i know there are some worst battleline options, but all armies got access to better battleline units). Part of Daemonettes being bad is that they baked the allegiance ability of exploding 6s into the point cost of the unit too. The only buff they got access to is rerolling 1s to hit. Meanwhile the other armies usually got 3+ to hit or 3+ to wound, -1 rend is now universal no longer the slaanesh theme, most battleline is 10 wounds with 4+ save, but Daemonettes got only 5+ save and that is quite huge, it mean they negate 1 out of every 3 wounds instead of 1 out of every 2 wounds, and once you take into account the universal -1 rend they are negating 1 out of 6 wounds instead of 1 out of 3. Other armies can further improve to hit, to wound, rend, numbers of attacks or damage per attack with command abilities and spells, but we cannot do any meaningful buff to daemonettes, they are outdated.
 

You started to define what you mean when you say "best" or "worst" battleline.

I think theres Speed, Durability (both in terms of armor save and MW save), damage output, MW output, Points Cost, synergy with the rest of the army (access to buffs) and relevant battalions (to lower the drops).  There's also Battleshock...  OH! and base size is a thing, so there's reach (2" on a 32 vs 1" on 25 for example).

That's a lot of dials.  Its going to be hard to balance everything out.  I do like where you are going with what's the average Battleline unit look like and how do Daemonettes relate.  They are so fast!  -1 Rend is average.  The MW output is there even if it isn't great, and even if you need to pay for a battalion to do it.  I'd rather they be 3+/3+ natively, but with so many ways to generate re-roll 1s, that's not the end of the world.  I don't think Daemonettes are very far below average.  Agreed, they are not "the best" anymore but just bc they aren't the best, doesn't make them the "worst."  

As an intellectual exercise, which other armies' Battleline unit would you rather have here?  Do you think any other armies would want the Daemonettes?

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34 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

You started to define what you mean when you say "best" or "worst" battleline.

I think theres Speed, Durability (both in terms of armor save and MW save), damage output, MW output, Points Cost, synergy with the rest of the army (access to buffs) and relevant battalions (to lower the drops).  There's also Battleshock...  OH! and base size is a thing, so there's reach (2" on a 32 vs 1" on 25 for example).

That's a lot of dials.  Its going to be hard to balance everything out.  I do like where you are going with what's the average Battleline unit look like and how do Daemonettes relate.  They are so fast!  -1 Rend is average.  The MW output is there even if it isn't great, and even if you need to pay for a battalion to do it.  I'd rather they be 3+/3+ natively, but with so many ways to generate re-roll 1s, that's not the end of the world.  I don't think Daemonettes are very far below average.  Agreed, they are not "the best" anymore but just bc they aren't the best, doesn't make them the "worst."  

As an intellectual exercise, which other armies' Battleline unit would you rather have here?  Do you think any other armies would want the Daemonettes?

I said a lot of things to specify what i was saying, in short what i said is they are the worst battleline still in use (arguebly in use, because hellstriders are way more popular). As you said the army synergy is something to account, Daemonettes cannot perform in other armies because they cannot afford loosing the exploding 6s, in the same way other battlelines cannot simply work on slaanesh because the only buff slaanesh got is rerolling 1s. Although maybe some of them may actually benefit from exploding 6s enough.

If battlelines actually come with acces to all their buffs, then i must say, probably any battleline but the ones wich role dosn't make any sense in our army would be better, while they will keep not taking daemonettes because they underperform in comparison.

I think Daemonettes are fairly costed at 10 points per model, 100 points per minimum size unit, 300 points per maximum size unit. So before i only considered them balanced in blocks of 30, and now i consider them plainly unbalance in every case.

And im not trying to convince you about my point, i understand your point, im simply looking at my numbers and data wich point to a way different conclusion.

You will ear a lot in this thread about BoC and StD battlelines being way better, my experience suggest about this not being an isolated case, and actually being true in almost every other army too. Slaanesh keep holding because other parts of our army are broken, and yes you can simply take hellstriders if daemonettes are bad (wich i consider overcosted now too) but that is plain deny of them needing help, i don't think one should justify a unit being unbalance pointing to another more balanced unit that you can take instead, because i want all units to be balance (something impossible to achieve, but that is another topic)

Edited by Yoid
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5 minutes ago, Yoid said:

I said a lot of things to specify what i was saying, in short what i said is they are the worst battleline still in use (arguebly in use, because hellstriders are way more popular). 

Sorry for the mis-understanding.  I get what you're saying.  I'm looking at a new army and always start with the Battleline.  I remember Daemonettes being good from playing against them.  No max discount does seem to hurt for sure.  

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Hey Slaanesh fans. Just an enquiry is their a host and battalion I can run with these units or would I need to purchase more? Not for competitiveness just for game days and fun.

I Own;

Archaon, 15 Chaos Knights, 20 Chaos Warriors, 1 Warshrine, 1 Chaos sorcerer lord, potentially a Shalaxi, all the StD endless spells.

I've looked at warscroll builder but without a book and understanding the hosts I'm struggling to see if I have a legal list or should stick to StD allegiance. 

Appreciate any help 😁👍

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12 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

Hey Slaanesh fans. Just an enquiry is their a host and battalion I can run with these units or would I need to purchase more? Not for competitiveness just for game days and fun.

I Own;

Archaon, 15 Chaos Knights, 20 Chaos Warriors, 1 Warshrine, 1 Chaos sorcerer lord, potentially a Shalaxi, all the StD endless spells.

I've looked at warscroll builder but without a book and understanding the hosts I'm struggling to see if I have a legal list or should stick to StD allegiance. 

Appreciate any help 😁👍

You could run these happily in Slaanesh in any host so long as they're marked as Slaanesh :) the hosts are basically just extra abilities and don't require any specific models (Syll'Eske host notwithstanding) 

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On 7/24/2020 at 11:22 AM, Yoid said:

. They keep nerfing slaanesh troops points because of the DP the keepers can produce instead of fixing that issue in other way, i think Daemonettes are now one of the worst if not the worst battleline in the game (yes, i know there are some worst battleline options, but all armies got access to better battleline units). 

I agree with this.  Daemonettes also used to be able to be 3+ to hit with exploding 6s but the exploding also could be 4+ in some ways I think?  It really moved away from what it was to something teeter totter up and downs.  

I struggle with the argument between 4+ and 3+.  AoS is suffering from some dice spiking that plagued 6th and 7th ed Fantasy.  If you remove the dice spiking (Ghyr STrike, rr 1s) suddenly that reliability is paid for.  Making something that doesn't have enough weight of attacks a 4+ suffers as a warscroll.  

I actually wonder if they removed the Sylle Eske battalion, and let Slaanesh back to original but with Lumineth and Tzeentch, CoS, etc if they would be more on par with a reasonable balance.  

On 7/24/2020 at 3:40 PM, Yoid said:

I think hellstriders were balance and didn't deserve the nerf, they can only grab objectives at long distances, wich is not bad for 100 points. 

It surprised me.  a local player said "daemonettes getting a nerf isn't a surprise" and I cannot see what he's seeing.  He claims you can move 30 up and be a serious threat on an objective however,.. I've never heard that analysis of them since HoS dropped.  

So seeing that change AND Hellstriders seems like a poor reaction to a build that exploited a summon table and heroes.  

I kinda feel GW has treated Slaanesh the way they treated Sylvaneth (let's fix this by making them bad).  

On 7/27/2020 at 4:44 AM, Deadkitten said:

As an intellectual exercise, which other armies' Battleline unit would you rather have here?  Do you think any other armies would want the Daemonettes?

I always wondered about Daemonettes and Dryads being similar in a sense.  One got a better save, one got rend.  One was on a larger base but had reach.  I guess the logical or more obvious was Daemonettes to Witch Elves (but lacked the hero synergy).

As a fluff option Fiends as  BL if Shalaxi is your General fits what GW has written.  Why not give that as an option for a GHB?  

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47 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

...

I kinda feel GW has treated Slaanesh the way they treated Sylvaneth (let's fix this by making them bad).  

...

I guess what I'm trying to evaluate is whether or not that still makes them OK.  Are they still a 3-2 list even if they aren't 5-0 anymore?  And then how bad do the stock units really need to be in order for the Hero/Summoning package to not be worth it.  I don't think they're there yet.

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3 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

I guess what I'm trying to evaluate is whether or not that still makes them OK.  Are they still a 3-2 list even if they aren't 5-0 anymore?  And then how bad do the stock units really need to be in order for the Hero/Summoning package to not be worth it.  I don't think they're there yet.

Slaanesh is still good, but is still good by the wrong reasons due to bad internal balance. Slaanesh will keep performing good (maybe not top, but good) because the Keeper of Secrets is still broken. Daemonettes will keep overperforming because you can most likely summon 30 for free once your KoS get to close combat, so 330 points for free, if they made the charge (wich they can reroll once for free) or the KoS survive till the next turn, they fight twice too by expending 1 CP... so they hit like 660 points suddenly.

If you remove the Keeper of Secrets from the book, Hedonites of Slaanesh turn into ultra trash tier. The only good pieces in the book are Bladebringer Exalted Chariots and Contorted Epitome, occasionally Infernal Enrapturess if the enemy got heavy magic, otherwise she is 140 points of dead weight. Every other troop underperform compared to the points it costs.

The Hedonites of Slaanesh dilema is they are trying to balance the whole Depravity Point System based on the Keeper of Secrets capacity of exploiting it, to the point is impossible to use with Viceleaders, Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitomes and Bladebringers. The Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot is really close to be able to use it, but she got the added handicap of not beign able to generate DP with the mortal wounds effects, that is the real damage output of the chariot. She will probably be able to use the DP system as good as the KoS if that abilities triggered it.

So if you take out the KoS, the DP system do nothing (you know, not nothing, but not enough to make a difference). Meanwhile they keep increasing the point cost of the troops to compensate for the DP, but the DP is balanced for KoS only, and this compensation is a little stupid because troops dont generate DP, increasing the points of the troops do nothing to fix the KoS generating DP problem, only make new problems in wich your starting not summoned army is trash, swifting even more power to the Keeper of Secrets.

I happen to own Wrath and Rapture, this box came a little before the battletome was anounced, so it was before the KoS was updated, and everything was balanced for the army to work without a Keeper of Secrets, the summoning points were in the GH and were much more lower than now, Daemonettes costed 100 points, they got built in rerolling 1s, the Infernal Enrapturess costed 100 points, this is arguably too low if the enemy got magic casters, but if the enemy got no magic caster, this is a really good cost, i wonder who decided to priced her as "perform normal vs mages and underperform when not" instead of "perform normal in every game but when the enemy got mages it overperforms" and you can tell this is a problem with powercreep design philosophy, when some battletomes are tought as "sometimes underperforming, otherwise normal" and some are tought as "Sometimes overperforming, otherwise normal". The exact same thing happened to Fiends, they were costed at 140 points, wich is arguably too low (im fine with them being 160 points if they reach that number someday) but is again the same philosophy disonance, in W&R they were design thinking "If they fight 1 wound enemies they perform normal, if they fight 2+ wounds enemies they start to overperform, peaking at super performing vs 4+ wound enemies" and now is the reverse "They perform normal vs 4+ wound enemies, they underperform a little vs 2-3 wound enemies, they are utterly trash vs 1 wound enemies" due to being priced so insanely high.

Then you got the other power creeped battletomes that are design with the overperforming philosophy. And don't get me worng, KoS is a superperforming piece, but is the only piece that got that deisgn in our battletome... by mistake... because they cannot figure out how to balance DP for everyone and they leave it in a middle spot that make every other hero underperform in DP  while the KoS is still above overperfoming.

Edit: So i remember it wrong, Fiends was 180 and Infernal Enrapturess was 120. I remember the point cost being lower, but may be because people liked to guess about the points before the product was out, as it was anounced with a lot of time before finally releasing. It may be too because the most common comentary on Fiends going from 180 to 210 was "I thought they should have lowered them to 140 because they do nothing" Anyway, everything was cheaper and Daemonettes cost was 100 points with built in rerolling 1s.

Edited by Yoid
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Hello Im a new Slaanesh player. Thinking of running the pretender host. My current army consists of:

60x daemonettes

20x seekers

2x exalted chariot

2x infernal

1x epitome

1x sylleske

1x Keeper of secrets

1x shalaxi

Endless spells and scenery.

Is there anything else you recommend I go buy ? The masque ? Hellstriders ?

 

Also the pretendet host i need the hero battalion. It says that it must have 1 hero instead of 3-6. Does that mean I only can have 1 hero in the battalio  or is it just that the minimum req. Is changed from 3 to 1? So the battalion  "req. 1-6 heroes"

Best regards

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2 hours ago, SoSoCho said:

Hello Im a new Slaanesh player. Thinking of running the pretender host. My current army consists of:

60x daemonettes

20x seekers

2x exalted chariot

2x infernal

1x epitome

1x sylleske

1x Keeper of secrets

1x shalaxi

Endless spells and scenery.

Is there anything else you recommend I go buy ? The masque ? Hellstriders ?

 

Also the pretendet host i need the hero battalion. It says that it must have 1 hero instead of 3-6. Does that mean I only can have 1 hero in the battalio  or is it just that the minimum req. Is changed from 3 to 1? So the battalion  "req. 1-6 heroes"

Best regards

I think you have a good selection of models and no other is a must. In the future, maybe another keeper, I ve also recently added  a Daemon prince to my list  and it does really well especially as gw nerfed our locus, this guy has always strike first on its warscroll.

How I wish our seekers were battleline! If you play them maybe get some regular chariots too for the battalion that lets you pile in 6" with them and the seekers?

Regarding the hero battallion in pretender the 3-6 requirement is replaced by 1, so it s pretty bad in that host. I used to take it for the extra CP and access to a second artifacts but its 30pts increase means I no longer will in pretenders. It is still a stapple battlelion in the other two hosts however despite its hight cost

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