AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Ragnar72]

Hi there,

interesting discussion!   @CB42 Can you explain why the ungors are that much important and where do you get the rerolls for the shalaxi?

The seeker calvacade also seems expensive. Do they really do enough damage after piling in the extra 3 ?

[Luke1705]

2 hours ago, Ragnar72 said:

Hi there,

interesting discussion!   @CB42 Can you explain why the ungors are that much important and where do you get the rerolls for the shalaxi?

The seeker calvacade also seems expensive. Do they really do enough damage after piling in the extra 3 ?

I haven’t run that list....yet 😈 but I’m pretty sure the ungor raiders are cheap backfield objective holders that are also surprisingly mobile with a sprinkling of shooting. Slaanesh is pretty body light until you summon so I believe the idea is to not let someone just come by with like 6 models and take your objectives.

Re-rolls for shalaxi will occur if you’re fighting a hero, if you sacrifice to the fane or if you cast one of the acquiescence spells (or if you include Syll’Esske, but he’s not appearing in this list)

Seeker cavalcade is almost exclusively less about *doing* damage and more about preventing it. When you pile from say 5” and end 2.99” away, you’re locking something in combat and probably only getting hit a couple times in return. And since you can pile from six, you can fall back, advance, and do the same old thing turn after turn until your seekers are dead. Additionally, if you *do* happen to fail a charge from less than 6 out then you can still pile in and swing so that’s helpful too.

Also the cavalcade makes you a 2 or 3 drop and gives you an extra command point and another artifact

Edited October 1, 2019 by Luke1705

[ArgyBargy]

What do you guys think of the 4 keeper list from Blackout? It seems weak imo but somehow still went undefeated. 

List was something like 3 keepers + Shalaxi,

3 units of 10 daemonettes and The Mirror/dreadful visage

[Luke1705]

11 hours ago, ArgyBargy said:

What do you guys think of the 4 keeper list from Blackout? It seems weak imo but somehow still went undefeated. 

List was something like 3 keepers + Shalaxi,

3 units of 10 daemonettes and The Mirror/dreadful visage

You should ask @HobbyKiller as I'm pretty sure that was his list. Obviously Keepers are strong as most people are running 1+Shalaxi (who is basically a keeper) or 2 + shalaxi.  The 4 keeper list is tough to play because it doesn't have a ton of bodies.  Although it technically has more bodies than the list James won the Warhammer GT finals with, the hellstriders are surprisingly effective vs chaff.  Decently durable and they will win most multi turn slap fights vs crappy units, plus they can tie up deathstars with the seeker cavalcade.  The extra heroes  in a 3 keeper (2 + shalaxi) list give you some more utility and safety so you can just throw the keepers forward with reckless abandon. I certainly am gravitating towards 3 keepers compared to 4 and it seems like multiple high level players agree with that assessment.

And just as an aside, some events will require you to have a different keeper to summon and not allow you to bring back a dead keeper.  Do you *really* want to buy 5 keepers?

[ArgyBargy]

it was Ben Johnson’s list. Fair points on extra heroes. Im running a 3 keeper list at an event this weekend, aside from points, im struggling to fully understand why people go 2 keeper + Shalaxi as opposed to 3 keepers. For 20 points id rather a keeper but that might be just me. As for models, that hasnt popped up here in Australia as far as I know.

[HERO]

3 hours ago, ArgyBargy said:

it was Ben Johnson’s list. Fair points on extra heroes. Im running a 3 keeper list at an event this weekend, aside from points, im struggling to fully understand why people go 2 keeper + Shalaxi as opposed to 3 keepers. For 20 points id rather a keeper but that might be just me. As for models, that hasnt popped up here in Australia as far as I know.

That's kind of my feeling a well.. I asked above and while the justification is great and all, I think the biggest justification actually comes from the cost.  There's so many times where that 20 points make the difference.

I did want to mention something though, while everyone and their mother seems to be a huge fan of lore of fire for the cloak, I am really looking at metal/Chamon for some of the artifacts there.  There is some insane value coming from their items, while still giving you access for Fly.

[Luke1705]

@CB42 covered it pretty thoroughly. For that list in particular points are a reason sure but you could just take 10 gors for 60 points instead of the ungor raiders for 80 and fit the third keeper if you really wanted to, but it seems that a number of people have practiced, tried it, and found that you lose more than you gain.

The biggest counter point for me is that you almost always have 2 or more of the 3 keepers nearby another keeper because the tactic to kill a lone keeper is send 2 units that are dangerous towards it since it can only locus one by itself. So as has been said, shalaxi needs a friend sure but with 3 keepers you’re usually going to bunch all 3 together or have 2/3 in one spot so it’s largely moot having 3 excess of violences. Especially since you can summon one in but you can’t summon in a shalaxi. That’s even not considering shalaxi’s hero-killing awesomeness

[Enoby]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/04/white-dwarf-preview-octobergw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-4/

4 new warscroll battalions... not bad at all.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Enoby

[Enoby]

To add to the post, upon further reading, seems we might be getting another Host. Wonder if the battalions will be for this host only; I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[CeleFAZE]

33 minutes ago, Enoby said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/10/04/white-dwarf-preview-octobergw-homepage-post-3fw-homepage-post-4/

4 new warscroll battalions... not bad at all.

Are the White Dwarf battalions usually tournament/matched play legal?

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

Are the White Dwarf battalions usually tournament/matched play legal?

I can't say for certain, but my brother seems to remember the Fyreslayer ones having points.

[Lucentia]

They have match play points, yes, and the ones so far have also had new unique characters and stuff, but they seem more written with a narrative focus in mind for the most part.

[CB42]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:29 PM, Luke1705 said:

I haven’t run that list....yet 😈 but I’m pretty sure the ungor raiders are cheap backfield objective holders that are also surprisingly mobile with a sprinkling of shooting.

They're a mobile screen. You take them not because they can shoot but because they get their 6" move turn 1. This allows you to screen your forces while deploying effectively on the line.

As an example: Let's say you're fighting against FEC and FEC will have choice. 24" apart. If you put your keeper with thermalrider cloak on the line within 3" of your screen, the terrorgheist can charge your screen, kill your screen, then pile into your keeper and kill your keeper. So you need to place your keeper 6" back from your screen, not 3". But that means you're out of charge range turn 1, so FEC will just give you first turn and life will suck for you. With Ungor Raiders, you place your keeper basically on the line and then move your screen forward. Now your keeper is screened with a 6" gap, which means that the TG can't charge your screen and pile into the keeper, but your keeper could cross the 24" gap and threaten a turn 1 charge. (There's also an element of putting models in the way so that the TG can't just jump over your screen and fight your keeper anyways, but the logic holds up - you can do things like move 6 ungor raiders up and use the other 4 to fill some of the space in between to prevent the TG from shooting the gap).

Also: On focal points and a few other maps, you can get your raiders within 6" of an objective with their 6" move. This forces the other player to dedicate resources to killing them turn one or to getting 11 bodies onto the objective, which dictates part of their turn 1 strat.

Also: Against some enemies, it's crucial for denying deepstrike (think eels coming in from ambush - if you can put raiders 6" foward on one flank, and deny the ambush with hellstriders behind you, you free up a lot more room for you to position your keepers near that flank without getting alpha'd by eels).

Also: they can screen out gnawholes that are placed near your forces, so a skaven player turn 1 can't skitterleap, WLV, then gnawhole back to safety. Makes it a one way trip for any enterprising grey seers.

 

Ungor Raiders are the best unit I haven't managed to fit into my list. I may bring them back if I switch from 30 Slaaneshtigors / 20 Seekers to 60 Slaaneshtigors.

[CB42]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:29 PM, Luke1705 said:

Slaanesh is pretty body light until you summon

But also it doesn't need to be! I know 3 keepers is all the hotness, but I run Depraved Drove Slaanesh with 113 models on the board turn 1, and I've seen a ton of success with that - I've yet to do worse than 4-1 across 5 or 6 tournaments and I managed to go 5-0  with the list at the BWG GT. People should feel free to live their large model count dreams with Slaanesh, regardless of what the meta is!

[HERO]

7 hours ago, CB42 said:

But also it doesn't need to be! I know 3 keepers is all the hotness, but I run Depraved Drove Slaanesh with 113 models on the board turn 1, and I've seen a ton of success with that - I've yet to do worse than 4-1 across 5 or 6 tournaments and I managed to go 5-0  with the list at the BWG GT. People should feel free to live their large model count dreams with Slaanesh, regardless of what the meta is!

How do you feel about Pretenders with Epiccurean?

[CB42]

1 hour ago, HERO said:

How do you feel about Pretenders with Epiccurean?

Pretenders can be interesting. I think it works well for either depraved drove or large groups of Daemonettes.

Epicurean just generally isn’t worth it. If it were 100 points? Maybe, yeah, but it would still be a weak battalion - but cheap enough it wouldn’t be a costly expenditure. If it were additional mortal wounds instead of replacing damage with mortals? It would be a strong choice at 180.

But replacing a third of our successful -1 rend hits with mortal wounds just isn’t that good unless against a save of 3+. Or ethereal 4+. In the absolute best case scenario (30 Daemonettes fighting twice), it turns 60 hits at -1 rend into 40 hits at -1 rend and 20 mortal wounds. That matters against, what, Sequitors? 2+ save buffed up monsters that you won’t even be able to wrap all 30 Daemonettes in range? And grimghast reapers?

It’s just not a big enough buff to make massed Daemonettes into a tournament winning list. And massed Daemonettes are only points efficient anyways when fighting twice with a keeper - they’re otherwise somewhat mediocre for their points even with the exploding 6s. Add in the logistical issues with getting 3 x 30 Daemonettes into range of the fight twice aura and you’ll see why even top tournament lists that bring more Daemonettes than normal might do 30/10/10 and no battalion rather than 30/30/30 Epicurean.

I’d say to make massed Daemonettes work, don’t bring Epicurean and instead bring one 30 block per Keeper (say, 2 keepers and 2 x 30 daemonettes) and then use Hellstriders as the remaining battleline.

[Sobakaa]

Could you please help me with clarifying when exactly Mesmerising Mirror triggers? The warscroll says "If a unit starts a move within 12" of this model", does that include charge move and pile-in move as well, potentially forcing a unit to suffer D3 mortal wounds 3 times in a turn - move, charge and pile-in (a very unlikely scenario)?

Also, how does the second bit "unless it finishes the move closer to this model than it was before the move was made" interact with multi-model units? Is it enough to move one model in the direction of the Mirror or every model has to end its move closer to it?

[Luke1705]

41 minutes ago, Sobakaa said:

Could you please help me with clarifying when exactly Mesmerising Mirror triggers? The warscroll says "If a unit starts a move within 12" of this model", does that include charge move and pile-in move as well, potentially forcing a unit to suffer D3 mortal wounds 3 times in a turn - move, charge and pile-in (a very unlikely scenario)?

Also, how does the second bit "unless it finishes the move closer to this model than it was before the move was made" interact with multi-model units? Is it enough to move one model in the direction of the Mirror or every model has to end its move closer to it?

Yep every time they move it can trigger.

For multi model units, to my understanding you just need to have one model move a tiny bit closer to the mirror. Everyone else can run completely in the opposite direction. A bit weird but I can’t really see any other way to read it

[umpac]

On 10/4/2019 at 9:42 AM, CB42 said:

Ungor Raiders are the best unit I haven't managed to fit into my list. I may bring them back if I switch from 30 Slaaneshtigors / 20 Seekers to 60 Slaaneshtigors.

What does your 2x30 Bestigor list look like? Single Keeper? Currently building one and was aiming for something like this:

2x KoS, Epitome, Bray shaman, 2x30 Bestigors, 3x10 Ungors, Depraved drove with 50 pts left for an endless spell or +1CP. I would love to fit both Wheels and Mirror into the list so maybe I''ll play around with single keeper, or drop the Epitome for Enrapturess + Mirror. Really want to keep 60 bestigors in the list since they are the main reason I went for slaanesh in the first place.

Edited October 6, 2019 by umpac

[HERO]

This might sound pretty nuts, but what about Pretenders but without the Daemonettes?  Run them the same with as Godseekers, but you're primarily taking them for the artefacts and Uber-Keeper.

For example:
3x Keepers or 2/1 Shalaxi 
Epitome
Masque
3x Hellstriders
Cavalcade + Supreme (for the artifact)

Run Thermalrider on a Strongest Alone/Hunter of Godbeasts General, Silverslash on another and Scepter of Domination on a third (or another artefact of choice).

[Luke1705]

Having only 1 leader in sybarites is no good because your drop count goes through the roof. Also you’re not going to generate nearly as much depravity as you would in godseekers or invaders.

[CB42]

On 10/6/2019 at 2:20 PM, umpac said:

What does your 2x30 Bestigor list look like? Single Keeper? Currently building one and was aiming for something like this:

2x KoS, Epitome, Bray shaman, 2x30 Bestigors, 3x10 Ungors, Depraved drove with 50 pts left for an endless spell or +1CP. I would love to fit both Wheels and Mirror into the list so maybe I''ll play around with single keeper, or drop the Epitome for Enrapturess + Mirror. Really want to keep 60 bestigors in the list since they are the main reason I went for slaanesh in the first place.

Keeper, Epitome, 2 x 30 Bestigors, 1 x Great Bray Shaman, 1 x 40 Ungors, 2 x 10 Ungors, Depraved Drove, Cogs, allied Grashraks Despoilers. 4 drops list.

The idea is that the Bestigors are for killing anything with 10 or more models, or any hero who has a relic. To do so, you want to use the Epitome to cast Cogs. The Bestigors deploy 24” wide (which means 9 or so Bestigors won’t be near your front line of besties), either on the line (if you’re going first) or right behind a screen of Ungors (if you don’t know but you don’t think they can charge you) or 3.5” back from a screen of Ungors. One Great Bray shaman sets up so that one unit of besties is wholly within 12”; Grashrak sets up to get the other one wholly within 12”. On your turn, the Ungors open the gates and move to the side, you get Cogs up, your Besties are now going 12”+1d6 and then they’re charging 2”+2d6 (rerolling If within 12” of an enemy with an artifact).

Keeper deploys at the line or 3.5” back from an Ungors screen. Keeper runs forward and charges a monster or something. Feel free to charge a screen, have the Bestigors kill the screen, then the keeper piles in 3” and is now in range of something tasty behind the screen and then fights twice.

Either have one unit of besties fight first and the other unit of besties fight a locus’d unit. Or have one unit of besties fight first and the other unit of besties charges one model into combat and then strings things back and then sets up 4.1” away from the enemy unit so that if they pile in 3” they can’t swing with 1” weapons for most of their stuff, so when you activate either they’ve piled in uselessly and you crush them or your besties pile in 4” and crush them.

Grashrak can be dropped for another GBS and to get the list down to 3 drops, but I like grashrak’s spell and the despoilers give another set of bodies for screening or holding things.

Edited October 8, 2019 by CB42

[CB42]

On 10/6/2019 at 8:33 AM, Luke1705 said:

Yep every time they move it can trigger.

For multi model units, to my understanding you just need to have one model move a tiny bit closer to the mirror. Everyone else can run completely in the opposite direction. A bit weird but I can’t really see any other way to read it

The unit as a whole must move closer... which means that you measure the closest part of the unit to the mirror. If that distance shrinks, it doesn’t matter what the rest of the unit did - the unit moved closer. If that distance expands because the closest model moved away slightly, it doesn’t matter if every other model in the unit shuffled closer - the distance between the mirror and the unit increased, so it moved away.

[Luke1705]

2 minutes ago, CB42 said:

The unit as a whole must move closer... which means that you measure the closest part of the unit to the mirror. If that distance shrinks, it doesn’t matter what the rest of the unit did - the unit moved closer. If that distance expands because the closest model moved away slightly, it doesn’t matter if every other model in the unit shuffled closer - the distance between the mirror and the unit increased, so it moved away.

That is what I meant to say but definitely not what I actually said thanks for clarifying

[HERO]

So... in October, we're going to get 4 more Battalions.  Who's excited?  Any bets on maybe getting a Fiend battalion?