AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

For reference

 

Definitely looking better for us with this.

[ibel]

14 minutes ago, azdimy said:

w just released online!

heayyyyyyyyy hiepieeeeeeee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KrispyXIV]

38 minutes ago, Enoby said:

For reference

 

Definitely looking better for us with this.

It certainly has my attention.  I'd been looking for ways to leverage the updated endless spells (I really like Jaws and Purple Sun), and Contorted Epitome was on my list of vehicles - but Slaanesh was still meh.  

140 point blissbarbs love purple sun though, and that cost is pretty nice for their warscroll. 

120 point painbringers and 130 point twinsouls are also legit.  As battleline, they may be a bit vulnerable to bounty hunters... but they don't have to be, do they. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by KrispyXIV

[Jaskier]

I'm actually wondering if the online points are incorrect, because Sigvald getting a random 60 point drop when he's widely regarded as one of our better units is...very odd. 

Otherwise, they pretty much give us a whole extra unit if you lean into the mortals. Those drops for the newer mortal Battlelines are massive. I actually worry that 140 point Blissbarbs might just be too good. The Myrmidesh/Symbaresh feel right where they are, especially as making them Battleline isn't always the right play anymore (thanks for nothing Bounty Hunters!) The list I ran the other day gained an extra 185 points to work with which is just astonishing. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

31 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I'm actually wondering if the online points are incorrect

I hope not 😂

I do think Painbringers are a bargain for what they bring. Compare them to Chaos Warriors (if you could bring them in 5s for 100).

For 20 extra points, you get -1 rend, +1 move, mortal wounds on 6s to wound in addition, and a permanent +1 save in combat.

The only thing Chaos Warriors have is a 5+ MW save and a +1 to save in shooting sometimes. 

They're actually pretty good for their points, and not just pretty good for their points in Slaanesh terms.

[Jaskier]

It does bear mentioning that Chaos Warriors themselves aren't that great, I think the better point of comparison is Vindictors who do a lot of similar stuff. Myrmidesh have a worse save against shooting, can't get buffed to save on a 2+, have lower Bravery (no banner) but move slightly faster, and assuming Slaanesh allegiance for the exploding 6s to-hit they are a bit better in terms of damage output. 10 points cheaper than Vindictors is a nice spot for them and is interesting in that it feels like there's no summoning tax baked in at that point. Blissbarbs and Twinsouls similarly look to be out of the 'taxed' bracket, and Blissbarbs in particular are looking even more like auto-includes than they already were. 

[JackOfBlades]

Those point costs seem very odd at two places: Painbringers and symbaresh cheaper than daemonettes? Symbaresh for the same price as slaangors? The latter change in particular just cant be right. And why do symbaresh cost 130 while fiends cost 195 and slickblades remained at 230?

Edited June 21, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[Jaskier]

The mortals getting big drops while other stuff that needs it more doesn't isn't surprising in the slightest given the assumed focus of what GW wants Slaanesh players to lean into. Looking at the updates in other armies, it's clear the changes are targeted on what they want to change; Slaangors, the big Stormcast dragons and half the Cities book not getting a change all prove this. 

The reason you should worry these are misprints is not the mortal infantry; it's the completely random 60 point drop to Sigvald. 

[KrispyXIV]

6 minutes ago, JackOfBlades said:

Those point costs seem very odd at two places: Painbringers and symbaresh cheaper than daemonettes? Symbaresh for the same price as slaangors? The latter change in particular just cant be right. And why do symbaresh cost 130 while fiends cost 195 and slickblades remained at 230?

They seem to be hard pushing the idea of putting mortals in your list and summoning demons. 

I'm down for trying that, if they're willing to make mortals reasonably costed. 

[Carnith]

I love all the changes. I still think some things go down, but it’s a great starting point. 
 

fiends need a rule to allow them to just strike in two ranks anyways. Daemonettes are a 110 point unit still paying for whatever. 

[JackOfBlades]

3 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

They seem to be hard pushing the idea of putting mortals in your list and summoning demons. 

I'm down for trying that, if they're willing to make mortals reasonably costed. 

Indeed, symbaresh are now cheaper than a hellflayer chariot for example which is crazy. But as we see, they certainly didnt drop the costs of all mortal units as slickblades and blissbarb seekers sit at the same point cost as before. Why would someone ever pay 230 points for 5 slickblades instead of 260 points for 10 symbaresh?

The way i can explain these changes is that theyre only half complete on the designers' part, and the other point changes will be released later.

Edited June 21, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[Vurtias]

Very happy with the changes, makes the army so much more playable and in general just lets us experiemnt with more units for fun given the spare points we will have.

The lack of daemon changes is weird, and makes me wonder if their playtesting was more focussed on mortals for now as we just summon the daemons anyway.

That weird point aside im still really happy with the changes. These are more than I was expecting by far and as such i dont want to get bogged down with thinking "oh but this unit didnt get changed" or whatever. This is an excellent start for us to move forward.

[Jaskier]

Oh, it absolutely bears repeating; these changes are massive. If you're taking your three minimum Battleline with a Lord of Pain, you're saving ~100 points. If you ran Sigvald, that's another 60 points - and he looks like an auto-take at 205. If you were reinforcing any of those units, that's another ~30 per reinforcement. Given what was working for us before, that's a lot of extra points to play with. I wouldn't be surprised if most builds people were running before gained in the vicinity of ~200 extra points to work with.

Hell, Galletian Veterans even gives a reason to reinforce Myrmidesh now...which Bounty Hunters immediately negates, but oh well. Even with the daemon stuff being so overpriced still, our foot mortals getting so much cheaper balances it out nicely as it invariably means our summoning will be that much faster. 

[JackOfBlades]

1 hour ago, Vurtias said:

Very happy with the changes, makes the army so much more playable and in general just lets us experiemnt with more units for fun given the spare points we will have.

The lack of daemon changes is weird, and makes me wonder if their playtesting was more focussed on mortals for now as we just summon the daemons anyway.

That weird point aside im still really happy with the changes. These are more than I was expecting by far and as such i dont want to get bogged down with thinking "oh but this unit didnt get changed" or whatever. This is an excellent start for us to move forward.

It may be a good start, but the problem is these kinds of winner takes all changes incentivise you to spam just a few warscrolls and feel bad when you dont do so. If that's repeated on a meta scale it will lead to identical armies, and players who feel like their favorite units from the lore are pointless and just suck, which doesnt feel good.

So for players like me who happen to not want to spam/build armies around the particular units that were turned into "autotakes", these changes arent bad (im happy for your sake), but are certainly a mixed bag.

Edited June 21, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[Enoby]

Thinking about it, Twinsouls seem really good for 130. For the amount of damage they do, being able to take 10 for just 260 is amazing. Yeah, the lack of rend hurts, but a single unit is enough to much most units.

Even more so because we can expect more 4+ save models about with non-battline troops likely ruling the roost with bounty hunters. 

[Enoby]

Also, what do we make of this:

If I dare to be hopeful, it could mean warscroll rewrites, which may mean new Slaangors... or it could just be some slight tweaks to hunters and quarry. But I hope Slaangors.

I think these large changes may have been because the community kicked up such a fuss. Yes, the writers probably recognised Slaanesh's weakness, but compare our changes to Khorne and Gitz (which are arguably weaker), our changes are much bigger. I'd like to think the rules writers took notice of everyone!

Also, @AngryPanda, I know you liked Myrmadesh, so I'm tagging you to let you know they're probably good now!

[Carnith]

45 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Also, what do we make of this:

If I dare to be hopeful, it could mean warscroll rewrites, which may mean new Slaangors... or it could just be some slight tweaks to hunters and quarry. But I hope Slaangors.

I think these large changes may have been because the community kicked up such a fuss. Yes, the writers probably recognised Slaanesh's weakness, but compare our changes to Khorne and Gitz (which are arguably weaker), our changes are much bigger. I'd like to think the rules writers took notice of everyone!

Also, @AngryPanda, I know you liked Myrmadesh, so I'm tagging you to let you know they're probably good now!

it is my hope this means Slaangor new warscroll if they keeping them at 130

 

[JackOfBlades]

4 minutes ago, Carnith said:

it is my hope this means Slaangor new warscroll if they keeping them at 130

 

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. The star of Tzeentch rises strong...

[Jaskier]

I think my old damage comparison chart needs a bit of updating, huh? Just some quick numbers (rounded up) against a 4+ save baseline with all the non-hero units that got drops for their ideal scenarios (i.e. Daemonettes at 20 to get the 5+ exploding hits bonus, but nothing ridiculous like including both Inspired and the -1 to saves from a Purple Sun; realistic, easily setup scenarios) just to give you an idea of how deadly these units are relative to each other. Note that thanks to the GHB, Myrmidesh can now fight in two ranks if unlocked as Battleline. 

20xDaemonettes (260) with +1 to-hit - 41 attacks, 41 hits, 21 wounds at -1 Rend 1 Damage = 14 unsaved damage

10xSymbaresh (260) with +1 to-hit and re-rolls to-hit - 31 attacks, 34 hits, 23 wounds at 2 Damage = 24 unsaved damage

10xMyrmidesh (240) with re-rolls to-hit (LoP) - 21 attacks, 23 hits, 15 wounds at -1 Rend 1 Damage + 4 mortal wounds = 14 unsaved damage

5 Slickblade Seekers (230) with re-rolls to-hit (LoP) - (rider) 16 attacks, 18 hits, 12 wounds at -1 Rend 1 Damage + 3 mortal wounds = 11 unsaved damage / (mount) 10 attacks, 11 hits, 7 wounds at 1 Damage = 4 unsaved damage / (total) = 15 unsaved damage

And as a bonus...a shooting unit! 

22xBlissbarbs (280) with +1 to-hit - 41 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds at -1 Rend 1 Damage = 12 unsaved damage 

Myrmidesh are finally punching at their weight level, as being roughly even with Slickblades for damage-per-point gives both a clear role (you trade durability for speed) and Symbaresh are just absurd at 26 points per model - seriously, a 10 block of this unit had good numbers for a 340 point unit, now it's 260! 

[Carnith]

I will say that I am happy for these adjustments. The Slaanesh board here was pretty dead. But this has given a big burst of energy to the thread. 

[ibel]

I am so glad, and pls not sooooo much bad vibes !!!

The Pont reduce is amazing and super cool. I am Building as many List i can. The only think is

(sadly enough) 

I didnt have 30 Painbringer oder 40 Twinssuls so (gogo buy buy buy )

[Wordy9th]

13 hours ago, JackOfBlades said:

It may be a good start, but the problem is these kinds of winner takes all changes incentivise you to spam just a few warscrolls and feel bad when you dont do so. If that's repeated on a meta scale it will lead to identical armies, and players who feel like their favorite units from the lore are pointless and just suck, which doesnt feel good.

So for players like me who happen to not want to spam/build armies around the particular units that were turned into "autotakes", these changes arent bad (im happy for your sake), but are certainly a mixed bag.

This is my issue, the internal balance has suffered believe it or not. Not reducing blissbarb seekers or slickblades raises the question now of why ever take seekers over blissbarbs on foot, or as previously mentioned, slickblades over symbaresh.

The points changes are good and well changed, but feel unfinished and thus encourages warscroll spam.

[ibel]

What do u think About a list like this :

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host or Maybe Luzerad Haste ?!?!
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: 

Leaders
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (470)*
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Dark Delusions
Lord of Pain (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Speed-chaser
- Artefact: Cameo of the Dark Prince
Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)*

Battleline
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (120)*
5 x Myrmidesh Painbringers (120)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Purple Sun of Shyish (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
Drops: 1

[Izotzuhure]

Symbaresh in Bounty Hunters are going to be stupid, particularly if there is a Purple Sun in play. 

[Enoby]

7 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Myrmidesh are finally punching at their weight level, as being roughly even with Slickblades for damage-per-point gives both a clear role (you trade durability for speed) and Symbaresh are just absurd at 26 points per model - seriously, a 10 block of this unit had good numbers for a 340 point unit, now it's 260

Thanks for the stats Symaresh do seem very strong; while they have a weakness in no rend, their current damage per point is amazing.

To compare them to stormcast dragon knights on a charge:

And then +8 mortal wounds-ish from the dragons when you use their fire breath and slay a 2 wound model (common characteristic) with tempest. 

The dragons are 4" faster and can fly, and also have +1 save, a 4+ spell shrug, and a weird move and charge ability. 

So against a 3+ save, a unit of 10 Twinsouls rerolling their hits (nothing else) deals 12 damage on average, compared to dragons who do 8+8 (so 16). 

Against a 4+ save, Twinsouls deal 19 compared to 18. 

If damage was all that mattered, then per point, Dragons would pay 21.25 points per damage against a 3+ save, and 18.54 against a 4+ save.

Twinsouls would pay 20.59 points per damage vs a 3+ save, and 13.73 vs a 4+ save. 

As mentioned, dragons do have a lot else going for them and I don't think Twinsouls will be as strong as dragons, however I wanted to use dragons as an example of a potentially underpriced very powerful damage unit. Twinsouls per point outdamage them even when accounting for mortal wounds (especially later down the save totem pole), and while they don't have the other tricks dragons do, it certainly suggests they're in a very good place. 

4 hours ago, Carnith said:

I will say that I am happy for these adjustments. The Slaanesh board here was pretty dead. But this has given a big burst of energy to the thread. 

I think it's helped a lot - beforehand, list building felt pretty dry as you could hardly fit anything in and it didn't feel that powerful when you did. Now we at least have some cool units that are competitively costed, we can look into less gimmicky lists.