AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[pnkdth]

6 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Yes, not getting hopes up for the WD update, after all, look what they did to Khorne! 

I am pretty sure most of the team have forgotten about Khorne entirely. That would at least explain why they didn't get anything in BR, was overlooked in the battlescroll, and got nothing more than discarded rules from the brainstorm pile in their WD update. It could also mean a drastic update for them coming soon but I'm not going to risk overdosing on hopium.

In other words, at least we know they know Slaanesh is in a bad place. So we got that going for us anyway. 😂

[Enoby]

3 hours ago, azdimy said:

White dwarf is a marketing tool for gw. I doubt they ll publish an interview that states Slaanesh is in a bad place so we suggest you play something else until we release a new battletome for it

Shoupdn t we see leaks of that white dwarf update in the coming days?

By interview, I meant job interview as a lead designer, not marketing interview - wasn't very clear

[azdimy]

45 minutes ago, Enoby said:

By interview, I meant job interview as a lead designer, not marketing interview - wasn't very clear

Gotcha, definitely misunderstood 😀

[Popisdead]

12 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Yes, not getting hopes up for the WD update, after all, look what they did to Khorne! 

No.  I'm going to look what they did to BoC which was good.  

[Jaskier]

I'm just not sure what they could realistically do for us that doesn't involve major points drops, that's why I'm not expecting anything big with this update. I guess the other way they could go - and potentially the more interesting one - is keeping our points high but severely improving our allegiance rules, though I see this being much less likely.

[Enoby]

9 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I'm just not sure what they could realistically do for us that doesn't involve major points drops, that's why I'm not expecting anything big with this update. I guess the other way they could go - and potentially the more interesting one - is keeping our points high but severely improving our allegiance rules, though I see this being much less likely.

I think a points drop would be our greatest bonus, besides something totally unrealistic like +10 damage on all Slaanesh melee attacks. However, at my most optimistic, I could see a solid addition to our allegiance abilities such as "After a friendly Hedonite unit completes a charge move, add 1 to the rend characteristics of their attacks for the following combat phase". 

Something like this would be a strong addition that doesn't shoot us up too high into the meta, but would be an interesting start at least and could help a lot in the long term with how generic it is.

[CeleFAZE]

10 hours ago, Enoby said:

I think a points drop would be our greatest bonus, besides something totally unrealistic like +10 damage on all Slaanesh melee attacks. However, at my most optimistic, I could see a solid addition to our allegiance abilities such as "After a friendly Hedonite unit completes a charge move, add 1 to the rend characteristics of their attacks for the following combat phase". 

Something like this would be a strong addition that doesn't shoot us up too high into the meta, but would be an interesting start at least and could help a lot in the long term with how generic it is.

Personally to build off of this, I'd at least like to see a locus ability that improves rend by one to daemon units (not wholly)  within 6" of a daemon character. It would make our daemons worth their points, fit the "faction fantasy" of important characters and give us the rend we desperately need to keep up in the current edition. If this were to happen I'd also like to see the fane changed to increase this ability by 1 for the character that sacrificed to it, keeping the +1 to hit for mortal characters.

If seeker-mounted units got a 6" pile-in that can go in any direction like Lumineth got in addition to this locus that would basically put us on the right track, I think. It also opens up better strategic use of chariots, as you could smash in for impact hits and pile away to safety, but you'd have to do it strategically due to happening when you choose to activate in combat.

I'm not getting my hopes up of course, but i want to try to be a little less pessimistic.

[KrispyXIV]

My personal thought is that they should just add Delicate Precision - that is, deal a mortal in addition on a 6 to wound - to every attack in the army.  

Even with 6's to hit doubling hits compounding with this, the net result is still only mathmatically similar to Kruleboyz 6's to hit deal mortals - but it would make the entire army threatening across the board, and reinforce the feelings of excess by pushing "MOAR ATTACKS!" and "rolling 6's feel great".  

Its a simple solution that isn't as powerful as it first sounds, and would justify the extreme cost of Slaanesh models.

Units that already have it would just need to be reevaluated for cost, at that point.

[Carnith]

I think it should be the case for daemons. Seeker mounts should also do MWs based on lore from the blissbarb seekers. Give daemonettes back their mw ability. Let friends get MW's on their attacks and have some punch. 

[Jaskier]

I think 6s to-wound do mortal wounds in addition as a faction ability would be the most sensible and relevant out of the suggested additions. They don't even necessarily need to be tied to the Damage characteristic of the attack, just amp up the total number of attacks per model ala Nurgle (though this won't happen until a new book.) Slaanesh in WHFB and 40K was tied to having good armour-piercing, without warscroll changes introducing a mortal wound mechanic is the easiest way to recapture that key aspect of the army and it scales better than Rend does anyway. 

I would also like to see our Locus changed to not require a roll to bring it in line with the other gods' Loci; Tzeentch offers -1 to-hit in melee, Nurgle offers boosted healing, and Khorne offers re-roll 1s to-hit, all without needing a dice roll. While I would absolutely argue that turning off pile-ins is potentially stronger than any of those abilities, it is a bit more situational - and it rarely comes up in a lot of games because of its short range coupled with the unfortunate reality that our daemon heroes typically don't get a lot of play time except as support pieces. Make the Locus automatic - no roll required - and have its range be within 3"/6" of a Daemon and 6"/9" (or 12") of a Greater Daemon and I'd be happy - it's currently the only Locus that requires the hero to be within melee range of the target, rendering it almost worthless on a support hero as the target can just multi-charge into something else and stay out of 1" of the daemon hero then pile-in to them! Ugh. 

Seriously, the more I think about it, the more I realize our Locus straight up doesn't work as intended unless it has a 3" or 6" range - and you have to roll for it! Ridiculous. It's conceptually fine on solo heroes but which of our daemon heroes wants to run solo? Not many, these days. The fact it has reduced value against enemy heroes (it still has a purpose of not letting them move the 3" which I can say from my recent GT can be a big deal) makes it sting even more. It needs to be reworked. 

Edit: on second thought, having run through a few scenarios, there are a few good reasons it's currently sitting at a 1" range purely due to some of the silly interactions it can have if you abuse it with clever positioning. Still, it should not be the only Locus that requires a roll and needs to be in melee range to work. I think 3" on lesser heroes and 6" on greater daemons with no roll required is the right move - or just changing it to something else. Hurakan Wind Spirits exist so it's not like a pile-in reduction being too strong should be a concern to the rules team 🤭

Edited April 28, 2022 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

While mortal wounds on 6s to wound for daemons would be nice, I think it would be a shame for mortals to not have their own special rule.

Don't get me wrong, daemons are weaker - they're absurdly pointed for their meek stats and rarely worth taking over just summoning. On the other hand, all of our allegiance abilities include or revolve around them. If their points were significantly reduced then they would have considerable bonuses over mortals, with benefits from the locus and the only ones with access to improved Euphoric Killers (though this is by oversight rather than design). It would be good for mortals to have a niche baked into a new allegiance ability - even if it was a tankier niche. Even not taking power into account, a lack of allegiance abilities specifically for mortals when daemons have that leaves them with a reduced sense of identity.

[CeleFAZE]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

While mortal wounds on 6s to wound for daemons would be nice, I think it would be a shame for mortals to not have their own special rule.

Don't get me wrong, daemons are weaker - they're absurdly pointed for their meek stats and rarely worth taking over just summoning. On the other hand, all of our allegiance abilities include or revolve around them. If their points were significantly reduced then they would have considerable bonuses over mortals, with benefits from the locus and the only ones with access to improved Euphoric Killers (though this is by oversight rather than design). It would be good for mortals to have a niche baked into a new allegiance ability - even if it was a tankier niche. Even not taking power into account, a lack of allegiance abilities specifically for mortals when daemons have that leaves them with a reduced sense of identity.

You mention tankier for mortals, and something thematic that comes to mind would be the ability to rally while in combat, maybe on a 5+. In fact, regenerating our mortal troops in a similar way to FEC by spending depravity would be an amazing way to make all-mortal armies viable, and would synergize nicely with depravity generation too.

I don't expect it to happen mind, however it would be a game-changer for how the army plays. It would give us a great reason to reinforce our units, which currently beyond twinsouls and maybe a corner case for command ability efficiency on blissbarbs (which I've been admittedly back and forth on) we don't have much reason to.

[Khendall]

[Carnith]

Loving all of the slaves to darkness leaks. While I want to be a purist in the army list construction aspect... those Ogroid's have always tempted me. 

[azdimy]

Love all the leaks but where our the white dwarf leaks? That s all I really care about! 😀

[CeleFAZE]

12 hours ago, azdimy said:

Love all the leaks but where our the white dwarf leaks? That s all I really care about! 😀

Honestly I'm really looking forward to the ogroids, as long as they're priced well.  They're effectively better bullgors in nearly every way (less move and no mortals, but more attacks and better hit/wound) and if we use one of our means of self damage on them they wound on 2+, which combined with an incarnate passing out AoA to everything in radius makes them 2+/2+, which we can further buff with acquiescence. As long as they aren't 300 points, a unit or two of these are basically auto-include coalition units in my opinion.

[azdimy]

GW just needs to rewrite the Slaangor warscroll they should have the ogroid level of killiness

[Wordy9th]

Can someone lay out some strategy for the contorted epitome?

I’m looking at its ability to make units lose their combat round through careful placement, but it seems so luck based and the unit is so fragile that I’m having a hard time using it practically. 

any thoughts about the big mirror appreciated! It would be helpful to suggest why I’d take it above other things at the same price point, mostly synessa or the exalted chariot with bladebringer.

[azdimy]

8 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Can someone lay out some strategy for the contorted epitome?

I’m looking at its ability to make units lose their combat round through careful placement, but it seems so luck based and the unit is so fragile that I’m having a hard time using it practically. 

any thoughts about the big mirror appreciated! It would be helpful to suggest why I’d take it above other things at the same price point, mostly synessa or the exalted chariot with bladebringer.

When I used it, I always kept it out of combat as it dies very easily with 7 wounds and a 5+ save. Its near immunity to mortal wounds however make it very survivable to all the ranged mortal wounds out there. When I send it in combat it s against chaff or small support heroes,nothing killy or you ll lose it

The reason to take it over Synessa or an exalted chariot is it can reroll casts and cast 2 spell. Its warscroll spell is also prettygood (one of the few ways to improve our damage outptut in melle and shooting)

[CeleFAZE]

On 5/4/2022 at 2:25 AM, Wordy9th said:

Can someone lay out some strategy for the contorted epitome?

I’m looking at its ability to make units lose their combat round through careful placement, but it seems so luck based and the unit is so fragile that I’m having a hard time using it practically. 

any thoughts about the big mirror appreciated! It would be helpful to suggest why I’d take it above other things at the same price point, mostly synessa or the exalted chariot with bladebringer.

Look at its close combat abilities as more of insurance than anything to build around. What you want it for is reliable casting and a great force multiplier spell with overwhelming acquiescence. It's also our best caster for endless spells, so it makes for a good cogs-caster to bring Synessa up to two casts, giving her more reasonable use of her abilities. It still suffers against anything with significant bonuses to unbind, but it's the best we've got.

[Jaskier]

The Epitome is much stronger in Legion of the First Prince where it gets access to the Fourfold Blade and turns into an absolute wrecking ball against elites and heroes, averaging roughly six mortal wounds per activation, while leveraging its 4+ rule in conjunction with a second unit - i.e. a Bloodthirster or Be'lakor himself - to pulverise stuff without reprisal. 

In Slaanesh, it just doesn't have that sort of damage potential, but it is still a nice albeit expensive utility piece as it is a good caster and immune to a lot of common forms of hero-sniping - quite relevant into the current meta where Stormdrakes are so common. The 4+ rule is great when it works but because it is lacking in damage output it's not really the key to using the unit well but more a nice and sometimes relevant bonus.

[Enoby]

We must be close to WD leaks soon... 

[Enoby]

Well this is promising - "new things to do with all those depravity points" sounds like we might not be summon only.

[Carnith]

I need to see what we can spend buffs on. In some games, I don't farm barely enough DP. I'm talking like 8 by turn 3. Either my units get womped on and don't survive, my opponent is smart and I can't farm points, or units just die. 

No mention of a Slaangor rewrite either... Maybe they think this change will suddenly make them good?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Carnith

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, Carnith said:

I need to see what we can spend buffs on. In some games, I don't farm barely enough DP. I'm talking like 8 by turn 3. Either my units get womped on and don't survive, my opponent is smart and I can't farm points, or units just die. 

I think, regardless of how strong this ends up being, the best news is that the rules team are moving away from us being the "summoning faction". Even if these new rules are a load of rubbish, it will hopefully mean they'll take us in a less summon focussed design next time.

But fingers crossed they're good, and they change our playstyle.