AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Sorrow]

The important thing in this update is that GW acknowledged that Hedonites have flaws that need fixing.

Truth to be told, I am pretty confident we might get a Tome Celestial in next 3-4 months.

[AngryPanda]

I think the point changes are a nice little boost; Painbringers and Twinsouls were already the better of our two troop choices, and to get a point decrease is going to help a number of lists and give them a little bit more wiggle room to fit what they want in. Below is a list I thought of that wasn’t possible before because of the point costs, but now I’m able to field; the Bladebringer (who hits like a train) will pair nicely next to my Slickblades. I’ll also be able to generate enough command points to pull off a couple of combos.
 

Invaders- 2000/2000

Warlord Battalion 

- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact 

 

Heroes:

Glutos- 475

- Spell: Dark Delusions

 

Bladebringer - 265

General #1 

Command Trait: Delusions of Infallibility 

Artifact:  Rapier of Ecstatic Conquest

- Spell: Flame Spell

 

Lord of Pain- 155

General #2

Artifact: Rod of Misrule

Triumph: Inspired  

 

Batteline:

Blissbarb Archers x 10- 170

Blissbarb Archers x 10- 170

Painbringers x 10- 290

 

Monsters- 

Mindstealer Sphiranx- 95

 

Calvary:

Slickblade Seekers- 230

 

Endless Spells:

Emerald Swarm (60) 

Dreadful Visage (90)

 

Summons: 

Fiends

Daemonettes

Keeper of Secret

Infernal Enrapturess 

[azdimy]

The problem is those are battleline if and outside of invader you would never take a lord of pain as your general

[KrispyXIV]

8 minutes ago, azdimy said:

The problem is those are battleline if and outside of invader you would never take a lord of pain as your general

This is absolutely an obstacle.  

The only 'real' options for battleline I consider are Blissbarbs, Hellstriders, and Chariots because everything else is too expensive (Painbringers and Twinsouls 'after tax').  If I didn't have to pay for a... questionably useful Lord of Pain... maybe... but honestly the most painful aspect of these changes is the fact that none of my active builds or lists benefit at all.

I haven't run Painbringers/Twinsouls at all for long while, I've mostly switched to Blissbarb Seekers over archers, and Slaangors are still a long way from preferable to pretty much anything.  

Maybe if Lord of Pain had also dropped...

[CeleFAZE]

Well, this update was... something, I guess? Major upside was the big discount on twinsouls, which I think are now poised to be our major damage dealers. Two units of 10 will be pretty solid, and with rerolls can put out some good damage. If you run them with a LoP you can have them running opposite buffs and use the command ability on whichever one has the ward to keep 100% uptime on rerolls. Not sold on myrmadesh, but at 10 points more than hellstriders they're a little tankier and provide some mortal wounds, so if you're already running an LoP there are worse choices for battleline.

I'm going to do some experimentation with these changes; while they're not the fix we needed I think they're at least an improvement. Shame they didn't give slaangors a new scroll.

[Carnith]

I was messing around with lists. I'd love to come back to Slaanesh as another army to play. I still don't know if it's there yet. The foundation I think is cracked. Nonetheless, here is what I thought of taking some suggestions I had read for people. 

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)
- Host Option: General
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
- Lore of Slaanesh: Born of Damnation
Lord of Pain (155)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Host Option: General
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Dark Delusions
5 x Hellstriders with Claw-spears (135)
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)

Total: 2020 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 111
Drops: 8
 

I think there is gas here, but not a lot in terms of mortal wounds. I'm thinking you'd yeet the herald's artifact to get rerolls for the game. All of those attacks rerolling wound be good. You could also flaming weapon for dmg 2 nettes on the chariot. 

[azdimy]

Twinsouls with many 3+ base saves heroes and even some battlelines like the mandatory SCE vindictors is a big  problem.  They really need a way to have rend and/or mortal wounds output 

Edited December 22, 2021 by azdimy

[CeleFAZE]

3 hours ago, azdimy said:

Twinsouls with many 3+ base saves heroes and even some battlelines like the mandatory SCE vindictors is a big  problem.  They really need a way to have rend and/or mortal wounds output 

Well, even that being said, against 2+ saves they're still the best non-hero unit we have. Comparing combat output between 10 twinsouls rerolling hits, 5 painbringers (even in a unit of 10 the 1" reach and coherency will generally only allow 5 to swing) and 5 slickblades:

The twinsouls have it, really. With 2 damage each every failed save is worth 2 failed saves from anything else we have, and anything short of a keeper is only going to be -1 rend at best. If we're super desperate for additional rend we do have the option of allying in Festus for his permanent -1 save spell.

 

[ibel]

5 hours ago, Carnith said:

10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (370)
- Reinforced x 1

U really Save more than 20 Points (u save 40 per 10 Twinsouls….

Jes Your Army is very fast but.... why no Shooting Power?!

[azdimy]

6 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Well, even that being said, against 2+ saves they're still the best non-hero unit we have. Comparing combat output between 10 twinsouls rerolling hits, 5 painbringers (even in a unit of 10 the 1" reach and coherency will generally only allow 5 to swing) and 5 slickblades:

The twinsouls have it, really. With 2 damage each every failed save is worth 2 failed saves from anything else we have, and anything short of a keeper is only going to be -1 rend at best. If we're super desperate for additional rend we do have the option of allying in Festus for his permanent -1 save spell.

 

From the average data you are showing, on a per point basis, both the slickblades and the painbringers outperform the twinsouls against 2+ armor. The ineffectiveness of twinsouls against high armor is even worse than what the average shows as their standard deviation is also much higher than the other 2 units making their damage potential unreliable on a unit that will not tank

[Khendall]

Go 15 Twinsouls x3 against those Nighthaunts lol, new meta

[CeleFAZE]

9 hours ago, azdimy said:

From the average data you are showing, on a per point basis, both the slickblades and the painbringers outperform the twinsouls against 2+ armor. The ineffectiveness of twinsouls against high armor is even worse than what the average shows as their standard deviation is also much higher than the other 2 units making their damage potential unreliable on a unit that will not tank

You're right on a point-for-point basis, but that's seldom how it actually plays out on the table. Two units of myrmadesh will outperform them, yes, but you actually have to get them into range, with less movement and shorter weapon ranges that's a bigger ask at times than it seems. On top of that, not all units will have all-out-defense, and/or mystic shield. That's a big part of why I advocate 2 units, forcing the hard decision on your opponent. On top of that they're fairly resilient, and will actually stick around long enough to generate depravity throughout the game. My last tournament game against SoB was won largely on the back of a unit of twinsouls.

[azdimy]

13 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

You're right on a point-for-point basis, but that's seldom how it actually plays out on the table. Two units of myrmadesh will outperform them, yes, but you actually have to get them into range, with less movement and shorter weapon ranges that's a bigger ask at times than it seems. On top of that, not all units will have all-out-defense, and/or mystic shield. That's a big part of why I advocate 2 units, forcing the hard decision on your opponent. On top of that they're fairly resilient, and will actually stick around long enough to generate depravity throughout the game. My last tournament game against SoB was won largely on the back of a unit of twinsouls.

Did you have 2 units of 10 twinsouls?

Congrats on your win against Sons. I have never beaten them after 10+ games against them with various mid tier armies I play

[CeleFAZE]

4 hours ago, azdimy said:

Did you have 2 units of 10 twinsouls?

Congrats on your win against Sons. I have never beaten them after 10+ games against them with various mid tier armies I play

It was only one unit, but they eliminated a unit of mancrushers on the charge 1st turn (I went 2nd). Generated a fair amount of depravity from hit and run charges from my exalted bladebringer general and the twinsouls alongside the bladebringer took out the first of the other three gargants. The twinsouls died around turn 3, but I was able to summon 2 keepers throughout the game that were able to double-pile the bladebringer and roar the gargant I focused in a given turn.

A lot of it came down to making good plays, but the twinsouls slapping with rerolls on the charge, then being able to go defensive with the ward afterwards was very useful. The bladebringer was an important element too, as being able to add in mortal wounds and use locus to keep a gargant from pivoting on the pile-in onto objectives kept me ahead on points. Also since the bladebringer is a wizard she can basically become a monster on demand, which let me use roar strategically to keep armor saves from getting out of hand.

Being able to fit in two units and a bladebringer with ranged support is going to be helpful. We'll still be on the back foot against certain armies, but most don't have 3+ save units, and even those that do we can use the other elements of a balanced list to deal with them as we have to.

The current list I'm working on is looking like this:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

LEADERS
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (265)***
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

Synessa, The Voice of Slaanesh (260)**

Festus the Leechlord (150)
- Allies

UNITS
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (330)*

10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (330)*

5 x Hellstriders with Hellscourges (135)*

5 x Hellstriders with Hellscourges (135)**

11 x Blissbarb Archers (170)***

11 x Blissbarb Archers (170)***

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS Chronomantic Cogs (45)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Vanguard
***Vanguard

TOTAL: 1990/2000

 

[azdimy]

8 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

 

Festus the Leechlord (150)
- Allies

 

I really like your list. Festus fills a gap in the list to deal against high armor. What would be your general command trait. Retreat and charge? I ve run a few times a general with the hurler of obsenities command trait to reduce the ennemy armor with 10 chaos knights w lance on the charge that should flatten a gargant

[CeleFAZE]

5 hours ago, azdimy said:

I really like your list. Festus fills a gap in the list to deal against high armor. What would be your general command trait. Retreat and charge? I ve run a few times a general with the hurler of obsenities command trait to reduce the ennemy armor with 10 chaos knights w lance on the charge that should flatten a gargant

Retreat and charge. Hurler is great against gargants, but I prefer maximizing the mortal wound output of the bladebringer, as well as the depravity generation from having my general be able to charge in the vast majority of turns. The bonus depravity from a charging general in godseekers is worth a unit in combat on average, so you want to maximize that wherever you can.

[azdimy]

Got my first game against the new Nurgle battletome today and who would have guessed Slaanesh liked the Disease point mechanic so much! I summoned 1 enrapturess and 2 keeper of secrets this game. Our speed is also impressive in that match up, I could 100% dictate where I wanted the fights to happen and isolate the targets I could not deal with

[CeleFAZE]

9 hours ago, azdimy said:

Got my first game against the new Nurgle battletome today and who would have guessed Slaanesh liked the Disease point mechanic so much! I summoned 1 enrapturess and 2 keeper of secrets this game. Our speed is also impressive in that match up, I could 100% dictate where I wanted the fights to happen and isolate the targets I could not deal with

I had a feeling Nurgle would be a great matchup for us. Between chip damage that never stops unless we want it to, our speed, and access to one of the best counters against ward saves in the game, we're really well positioned against them.

Some of the top ITC players in my meta have been saying that Nurgle has the potential to be pretty strong; once the competitive lists congeal for them and there's more representation in the meta it'll be great for us. Doesn't do much about our current problem matchups, but it does mean a better chance to run into the paper to our scissors as it were.

[MothmanDraws]

I think main issue is other armies are too fast, so many have teleports which instantly gives then better threat range. Would be nice if tp and deep striking was more limited 

Nurgle is probably our perfect match up, slow so we pick fights, tough so we wont overkill them, toughness is wound density instead of save so easy to ge odd wounds for dp here and there , the hit weak so wont overkill us, mortal wounds are amazing vs armour but pointless vs blissbarbs and other lightly armoured units. Also we have good healing to counter disease if its getting too spicey.  I could odly see that match up having s like 70% hedonited favour.

Hedonites basically want a meta that is msu, high rend, middle tier armour but high negation(sigvald stonks), low damage, slow and tanky to play into. Godhammer is really bad for them 

[CeleFAZE]

9 hours ago, MothmanDraws said:

I think main issue is other armies are too fast, so many have teleports which instantly gives then better threat range. Would be nice if tp and deep striking was more limited 

Nurgle is probably our perfect match up, slow so we pick fights, tough so we wont overkill them, toughness is wound density instead of save so easy to ge odd wounds for dp here and there , the hit weak so wont overkill us, mortal wounds are amazing vs armour but pointless vs blissbarbs and other lightly armoured units. Also we have good healing to counter disease if its getting too spicey.  I could odly see that match up having s like 70% hedonited favour.

Hedonites basically want a meta that is msu, high rend, middle tier armour but high negation(sigvald stonks), low damage, slow and tanky to play into. Godhammer is really bad for them 

Yeah, teleports have been my bane in a lot of matchups. Granted most of the times I've dealt that were back in 2.0 with the previous large board size, but I got absolutely merc'ed by an annihilator-bombardment list during a major before the new SCE book came out.

I'm honestly surprised we didn't get any sort of teleport or deepstrike beyond the lurid haze ambush. On that note, has anyone had recent good results with lurid haze? I've been having problems with canny opponents zoning me out and keeping the matchups at the edges highly suboptimal. Recently I've been going back to my old standard of godseekers, as the +1 charge and extra depravity is clutch enough to outweigh the extra few CP from vanilla invaders, or occasional good scalpel-alpha with Sigvald in LH.

[Pompe]

What's the general opinion on Slickblades? I've not had the chance of fielding them. Are they worth their points? It seems like a good unit to go snipe backyard objective holders. 

And has anyone found a good way of dealing with double Maw-crushas? I went 3-2 on a tournament a month ago and that was the only game I felt that I had no real answer to my opponents that. Other than Gotrek, Glutos seems to be a good answer to any and all threats. 

[Jaskier]

Slickblades are very nasty, especially if you can get a few buffs on them. Bravery and their 5+ save are their main issues, but even in 2.0 (before unit champions issuing commands) I found they were a very independently strong unit given how mobile they are and their great offensive stats. Like most things in Slaanesh, they could do to be a bit cheaper, but they're generally one of our more efficient damage dealers.

[Pompe]

4 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Slickblades are very nasty, especially if you can get a few buffs on them. Bravery and their 5+ save are their main issues, but even in 2.0 (before unit champions issuing commands) I found they were a very independently strong unit given how mobile they are and their great offensive stats. Like most things in Slaanesh, they could do to be a bit cheaper, but they're generally one of our more efficient damage dealers.

How do you buff them? The Lord of Pain isn't able to keep up with them and neither is the Shardspeaker. Good relievers of +1 to hit though. 

[Jaskier]

Acquiescence is the easy one. The Lord of Pain buff is usable if you ambush him via Lurid Haze, or you can wait a turn for a LoP/Shardspeaker/etc to push up - depending on the matchup, you won't want your Slickblades in combat straight away without support. Also if you're going second you might be able to run both foot heroes into position to be in range for the Slickblades assuming your opponent took the midfield objectives on their turn. It's really not as hard as you'd think. There's also the Icon of Excess (+1 to-hit bubble) on a fast hero which pairs nicely with a Keeper so your Slickblades get the +1 to-hit and can still double pile-in (as if you rely on All Out Attack you wouldn't be able to use Excess of Violence.) 

[TimeToWaste85]

Dumb question; I just bought 3 Slaangors for 40% off due to the Christmas box; is it worth offering a box of Blissbarb archers NiB (in shrink wrap) for another 3 NoS? Are the points down enough to be usable? Plus I just love the look of them.