AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[azdimy]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I'd personally like to see a Host/subhost without summoning but with something to make up for it, like an ability that'd give the units a boost for depravity instead. Or just have these boosts available for everyone and they can pick and choose between summoning and buffs. It'd be nice if summoning wasn't essential to the faction's playstyle.  

Yes, I wouldn t mind a subfaction focused on something else. Our summoning if not nerfed is shaping up nicely against whats coming with Nurgle diseases 

[Overread]

The problem with "no summoning" is that the army is pointed to expect you to summon during the game. So you have to have some pretty big bonuses if you are going to remove the mechanic entirely. Thing is a bonus always applies whilst summoning is very variable and takes time to take effect. 

It's tricky because leaving out summoning and having an army wide bonus to counterbalance might just make the sub-faction the best choice. Much like how at launch everyone took the +1 save subfaction for Ossiarchs because it always had effect and it was nearly always the best choice at the time compared to anything else. 

 

 

[zombiepiratexxx]

I'd much rather depravity work like Waaagh points in Big Waaagh Warclans. Where your depravity is a tally and that the more points you get equates to bonuses like +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1 to cast, +1 to AS and then, once you get to a large tally of points you can spaff it all on a turn of delicious climax and get like +1 attack on every melee weapon in the army for a turn or something, then it all resets as the ecstasy fades. Wouldn't be hard to do, gets rid of Summoning which means units can be better priced and balanced. It's not that hard to do and still make it feel like a Slaanesh army. 

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

I'd much rather depravity work like Waaagh points in Big Waaagh Warclans. Where your depravity is a tally and that the more points you get equates to bonuses like +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1 to cast, +1 to AS and then, once you get to a large tally of points you can spaff it all on a turn of delicious climax and get like +1 attack on every melee weapon in the army for a turn or something, then it all resets as the ecstasy fades. Wouldn't be hard to do, gets rid of Summoning which means units can be better priced and balanced. It's not that hard to do and still make it feel like a Slaanesh army. 

That sounds mechanically, exactly like Big Waagh.  

Which is fundamentally the issue with most "get rid of summoning" 'solutions' for Slaanesh - they trade a real, unique playstyle for one that is essentially just a clone of every other fast glass-hammer army.  

I like the idea of having a unique playstyle - and the current setup IS that.  It's fast, and requires careful, skilled play.  It's the tuning that's off, not the design.  I will be very sad if the eventual solution for slaanesh is to reduce them to being just another "move forward and outhammer the opponent" design...

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, KrispyXIV said:

That sounds mechanically, exactly like Big Waagh.  

Which is fundamentally the issue with most "get rid of summoning" 'solutions' for Slaanesh - they trade a real, unique playstyle for one that is essentially just a clone of every other fast glass-hammer army.  

I like the idea of having a unique playstyle - and the current setup IS that.  It's fast, and requires careful, skilled play.  It's the tuning that's off, not the design.  I will be very sad if the eventual solution for slaanesh is to reduce them to being just another "move forward and outhammer the opponent" design...

I think there are ways to do 'no summoning' without it being just Big Waagh/DoK/Khorne all over again. Something like "pain and pleasure" where you choose to take debuffs/damage to gain buffs would feed into the finesse playstyle and also be more thematic than just summoning. 

I do agree that just +1s wouldn't really capture much, but I think summoning isn't particularly Slaaneshy (at least compared to other Chaos gods).  

I'm not a big fan of the Big Waagh's style - it's strong but dull, and while it fits orks, it'd be a poor match for us. But at the same time, I don't think our current set of allegiance abilities are really that thematic either.

I think a list of buffs that would impact our finesse style (e.g. affect movements and retreats, give penalties to the opponent) and come with a downside would be a better solution in the long run.

[azdimy]

For a faction without the summoning focus and not changing the points, it could be a mortal army that starts the game with an additionnal x  battleline mortal units not reinforced or something in those lines

[Enoby]

I think as well, if they had to keep summoning as the focus, I think a lot of people would have appreciated the ability to summon mortals too. Of course, it makes less narrative sense, but just call it 'drawn to depravity' and flavour it in a similar way to Ravagers.

I say this because a lot of people have said "I love the mortals, but don't like the daemons, so I don't like that you need to buy daemons to play the main allegiance ability".

I personally like the daemons, but I understand that there are those who don't. Summoning mortals wouldn't make loads of narrative sense, but it would help those who don't like daemons and feel forced to use them. 

[Jaskier]

Just spitballing here, but I'd do something along these lines;

Keep the summoning system, but consider raising the Depravity costs to summon units; weaken the summoning to let the units get buffed/see points reductions so the army isn't reliant on summoning anymore, which is I feel what most of us want. It should be like Tzeentch summoning; a nice bonus for playing the army the way it's meant to be played, but not what the army revolves and is balanced around. The current system is mechanically simple and elegant, so it can stay unchanged; just make it slower so our units aren't priced around it. Change the summoning table to "Bliss in Agony" or something like that; it's based around receiving and inflicting pain, after all. 

Seperate from that would be a new Depravity chart, an escalating buff table that mirrors the Daughters of Khaine; this makes a lot of sense thematically as many DoK are born from aelven souls twisted by Slaanesh. I considered an individual unit buff table but it just adds too much extra book-keeping that conflicts with our already robust summoning mechanic. Doing it this way keeps things simple, and would really fit how a Slaanesh army fights; the longer they are doing something, the further they will go to derive pleasure from it, becoming more and more gruesome and terrifying to fight as the battle nears its climax. 

Let's say the chart is;

Faint Yearning (round 1) - no effect.

Depraved Eagerness (round 2) - units can run and shoot or run and charge.

Gorge on Impurity (round 3) - units heal a wound at the end of the fight phase if they inflicted an unsaved wound or a mortal wound that was not negated earlier in that phase.

Rapturous Frenzy (round 4) - units with the Euphoric Killers battle trait generate additional hits on an unmodified hit roll of 5+ instead of 6+.

Blissful Release (round 5) - models in units can pile-in and fight when they are slain.

I think those would be thematic, flavourful and nothing too strong. It would require a lot of tweaks to some warscrolls and abilities (i.e. the army-wide run and shoot/charge) but I think they'd be a nice complement to our other allegiance rules and help make our units feel a bit stronger and not be taken based on their summoning potential alone. 

[zombiepiratexxx]

Also, let's not forget that in terms of Battle Tactics summoning actually becomes a weakness because nothing you summon can achieve certain Battle Tactics as they specify that it's only models from the starting army that are allowed to score. So summoning a Kipper may help with extra VPs for completing some stuff with a monster, you might not be able to score at all in the first place. 

[Enoby]

6 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Also, let's not forget that in terms of Battle Tactics summoning actually becomes a weakness because nothing you summon can achieve certain Battle Tactics as they specify that it's only models from the starting army that are allowed to score. So summoning a Kipper may help with extra VPs for completing some stuff with a monster, you might not be able to score at all in the first place. 

While I think it's a fair addition to ensure summoning never becomes too strong, I do think they've reacted to summoning as if it was still mid 2019. The summoning nerfs to objectives is fine on its own, but the massive points increase and focus on it over other allegiance abilities has been an overcorrection in my mind (and potentially could be seen that summoning is a downside as it's cost so much).

I do understand why they were so cautious around Slaanesh, but at the same time, it felt like they were making decisions based on an outdated meta when they were making all of the extra balance checks for summoning. 

[MothmanDraws]

 

-solo performance-

 The slaanesh army at start of game can declare this battle to be a solo performance, if doing so they cannot spend depravity on summoning. Instead the army gains access to the following buffs

-"Dance eternal" when using redeploy reaction the roll is automatically a 6 and instead of using command points 6 depravity may be spent instead to activate

-"Everybody to your places" at start of first turn redeploy d3 units

"Give them a good time" at start of shooting or combat spend 6 depravity on a unit that unit may re roll its wound attempts or increase rend on one of their weapons by 1

[zombiepiratexxx]

4 hours ago, Enoby said:

While I think it's a fair addition to ensure summoning never becomes too strong, I do think they've reacted to summoning as if it was still mid 2019. The summoning nerfs to objectives is fine on its own, but the massive points increase and focus on it over other allegiance abilities has been an overcorrection in my mind (and potentially could be seen that summoning is a downside as it's cost so much).

I do understand why they were so cautious around Slaanesh, but at the same time, it felt like they were making decisions based on an outdated meta when they were making all of the extra balance checks for summoning. 

Totally agree on this point. The nerf bat swung too far and too harshly, if everything went back to book values rather than 3.0 I think things would be a better start. Sadly Slaangors need far more than just a points tweak. 

[pnkdth]

 

Gotta love the keeper at the end, "...aaaand cut! That's a wrap everyone. Well done!"

 

 

[zombiepiratexxx]

Got the despatch notification for my Battleforce, looks like it's going to be a Hedonite Christmas for me! 

[MothmanDraws]

Same mines heading from element games atm. Also got my 3d printer up and running to get some diaz esque looking daemonettes done up. Also might be able to get a hold of my brothers old dark elves from fantasy, could look at reworking them so I can have them be my marauders or something to bring back some old " remnants of the cult of pleasure", maybe some of the elves liked it in slaanesh and want to go back.

[azdimy]

After reading some of the Nurgle battletome content, I m starting to think our book was written at the end of 2019 early 2020 but only got released in 2021 due to the new units not available at the time.

[Overread]

Interesting observation - Firestorm games have around 4 or less of almost all the Battleforces.

And 19 Hedonite ones

 

This means that either they REALLY over-ordered in the extreme on Hedonites compared to the others; or my prayers earlier in the thread got answered!

[Enoby]

38 minutes ago, Overread said:

Interesting observation - Firestorm games have around 4 or less of almost all the Battleforces.

And 19 Hedonite ones

 

This means that either they REALLY over-ordered in the extreme on Hedonites compared to the others; or my prayers earlier in the thread got answered!

Very interesting, though in Goblin Games has Hedonites on 8 left and Lumineth on 21 (SBGL on 4), so it could well be an overstock issue. 

That said, if it has sold poorly, let's hope this is another kick up for the rules team to try help us. 

[Overread]

Yep and sometimes its also just the customers they get; granted for online stores that are well known that's often slightly less impactful; but it could still just be that Hedonite players got their models from other stores and Firestorm just doesn't have as many Hedonite players going to their store right now. Still in the end overstock on these is great and it would be nice to think some can last beyond the most expensive month of the year. 

[zombiepiratexxx]

Last wekend when I was looking around Goblin had the battleforces at 10% off, now 5%, they seem to be slashing discount on stuff. I got my one from a different site at 20% off so consider that I got a really decent svaing against retail. 

[azdimy]

Happy to pay retail and support the place where I usually play!

[Lightbox]

Hi all!

I know the Glutos model comes with a 170mm base but can anyone who owns the model let me know how much overhang it would be likely to have if put on a 120mm oval? I'm wanting to use the kit to make a fun Idolator Lord conversion but want to check whether it will be possible to have it on correct base for that or if I'll need to go bigger and get opponents permission in games.

Thanks in advance ❤️

[Enoby]

29 minutes ago, Lightbox said:

Hi all!

I know the Glutos model comes with a 170mm base but can anyone who owns the model let me know how much overhang it would be likely to have if put on a 120mm oval? I'm wanting to use the kit to make a fun Idolator Lord conversion but want to check whether it will be possible to have it on correct base for that or if I'll need to go bigger and get opponents permission in games.

Thanks in advance ❤️

I think there would be a somenoverhang, but nothing too massive. As you can see from the picture below, there's a decent amount of space surrounding Glutos, and the only issue you may have is the front hands of the mutants.

 

[Lightbox]

52 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think there would be a somenoverhang, but nothing too massive. As you can see from the picture below, there's a decent amount of space surrounding Glutos, and the only issue you may have is the front hands of the mutants.

 

Wonderful, thanks @Enoby!! The mutants arms should be easy enough to reposition/modify if that's the case  

[MothmanDraws]

The faq wait is rough. Got my desired list ready just wanna see how it changes

Invaders-lurid

Sigvald

Shardspeaker

Lord of pain

Synessa

10 painbringers

2x 10 units of blissbarb archers

2x5 slickblade seekers

Atm leaves me about 35 points, id love yo see list down to 235 points spare giving me room for 1 extra unit and cogs. Plan is yolo sigvald, if haze rolls good ill either put the block of 10 painbringers or 2 slickblades with him while synessa just chills at back of board  offering support. Id stick in a block of slaangor if they are good. 

Overall plan is hope sigvald and slickblades can keep opponent locked on their side of board for 2-3 turns while i nab objectives and get depravity going so by time the first wave is dead i can dump in summoned units. Id probably jam sigvald into hopefully a big juicy unit that relies on aftersaves and try to trade him for 2 blocks of troops, dont really have a solution to most god monsters might just gut the army and pray

Archaon- send sigvald after his friends and just try to feed archaon ****** road bumps

Teclis/sentinels- pray for first turn and try to tag as many sentinels with siggy and slickblades. Or if can try get cheeky charge on teclis, though dunno the math hammer on sigvalds chances

Giants- cry, maybe if i get twisted mirror debuff going i can combined arms through 2x blissbarbs into sigvald charge to take them down.