AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[AngryPanda]

Hey guys 👋 it’s been a while; I’ve been lurking around the forums but I haven’t been participating because I’ve been so busy. Exams are around the corner, and I was thinking of picking up the new Slaanesh box for Christmas as a nice award for myself on getting through exam season; I’m going to use the Slaangors for Warcry. 
 

Regarding the December update, I have 100% confidence Games Workshop is going to either nerf or ignore Slaanesh. At this point, whenever I feel GW is going to give us something fair, they’ve turned around every time and did the exact opposite, or at least put a “twist” on it that took away more than what we asked. 

Slaanesh needs a new book that takes the focus away from heroes being the only source of depravity? That’s a great idea, and while we’re at it let’s just jack up the points and make every unit overpriced.

The entirety of the community is within agreement saying the points are too expensive from both an insightful survey we got from some passionate fans, and community figures who actually play the game at a tournament level? No problem, let’s just increase the points across the board again within the summer 3.0 update.

Oh, people are saying we completely dropped the ball on Slaangors, and that we should rewrite their warscroll? Just to be safe, I think what they’re trying to say is that Slaangors need their points increased by 10; that would really get those barely sold Slaangor models to fly off the shelves! 

Actually, Slaanesh seems too powerful; that guy in that tournament or whatever won 5-0; we gotta nerf the army because that guy just showed us this army is too good and isn’t fair for the struggling LUMANITH who’ve not gotten enough; those sentinel archers are terrible! Yea we gotta nerf them even more, really teach those power-hungry Slaanesh players a lesson. 

At this point, it wouldn’t surprise me that one or more members of the rule team occasionally reads what we posts, and remembers when they got tabled multiple times by some guy with a neckbeard the size of a small child and fingers covered who grease and Cheetos, who used the original HoS book with the old OP Locus of Diversion. They probably still have PTSD, and want to make us suffer like they did by giving us updates that are the exact the opposite of what we suggest/wish for. 
 

I’m predicting that if we are to get a point decrease (which I have little hope we will), it’s going to be “balanced” with higher summoning costs. It would also be hilarious if they bumped Slaangors by two bravery, and consider that to be the warscroll rewrite that the community has been asking for. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by AngryPanda

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

Hey guys 👋 it’s been a while; I’ve been lurking around the forums but I haven’t been participating because I’ve been so busy. Exams are around the corner, and I was thinking of picking up the new Slaanesh box for Christmas as a nice award for myself on getting through exam season; I’m going to use the Slaangors for Warcry. 
 

Regarding the December update, I have 100% confidence Games Workshop is going to either nerf or ignore Slaanesh. At this point, whenever I feel GW is going to give us something fair, they’ve turned around every time and did the exact opposite, or at least put a “twist” on it that took away more than what we asked. 

Slaanesh needs a new book that takes the focus away from heroes being the only source of depravity? That’s a great idea, and while we’re at it let’s just jack up the points and make every unit overpriced.

The entirety of the community is within agreement saying the points are too expensive from both an insightful survey we got from some passionate fans, and community figures who actually play the game at a tournament level? No problem, let’s just increase the points across the board again within the summer 3.0 update.

Oh, people are saying we completely dropped the ball on Slaangors, and that we should rewrite their warscroll? Just to be safe, I think what they’re trying to say is that Slaangors need their points increased by 10; that would really get those barely sold Slaangor models to fly off the shelves! 

Actually, Slaanesh seems too powerful; that guy in that tournament or whatever won 5-0; we gotta nerf the army because that guy just showed us this army is too good and isn’t fair for the struggling LUMANITH who’ve not gotten enough; those sentinel archers are terrible! Yea we gotta nerf them even more, really teach those power-hungry Slaanesh players a lesson. 

At this point, it wouldn’t surprise me that one or more members of the rule team occasionally reads what we posts, and remembers when they got tabled multiple times by some guy wearing a JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure T-shirt with a neckbeard the size of a small child and fingers covered who grease and Cheetos, who used the original HoS book with the old OP Locus of Diversion. They probably still have PTSD, and want to make us suffer like they did by giving us updates that are the exact the opposite of what we suggest/wish for. 
 

I’m predicting that if we are to get a point decrease (which I have little hope we will), it’s going to be “balanced” with higher summoning costs. It would also be hilarious if they bumped Slaangors by two bravery, and consider that to be the warscroll rewrite that the community has been asking for. 

Here's hoping you're dead wrong.  GW boosting the cost of Stormdrakes when and how they did is a great sign that if they aren't always right out the gates, they're capable of reading feedback and acknowledging mistakes.  

My experience with Slaanesh so far tells me the new book has a solid design, but the prices are aggressively conservative because they're terrified of the Summoning being Too Good (which it has the potential to be).  They released the book with a set of costs for 2E, and then 'adjusted' them for 3E based on trying to keep things 'expensive', with a general boost along the same lines everyone got (to make up for the 'extra' points people got with warscroll battalions went away).  It was clearly 'too much' for Slaanesh, but it wasn't some mean spirited "kick them while they're down" thing - it was an adjustment to try and keep things in line, and prevent Slaanesh from being explosive and too hard to keep from being able to Snowball out of control on the table.

And that is a concern, because its exactly what happens when I play a good game and my opponent plays a mediocre one - if my opponent doesn't hit me hard and fast and play to deny me DP, I can summon a ton of stuff and just attrition my way to victory and own objectives via weight of free numbers.

In most games, its more of a struggle than that though - playing Slaanesh as it stands essentially allows for no mistakes, as you don't have any resources you can spare because of how much of a disadvantage you start with on the table.

I don't think the gap is as big as most people think it is.  I've heard numbers like "40% across the board discount" thrown around in wishlisting online, and I can't imagine how overpowered that would make the faction - there are some scrolls that are overcosted close to that, but many of them are probably only 10% overcosted, or maybe not overcosted at all.  

I'd personally be ecstatic if we got a new points page like the two factions in the 40k balance updated did, with a net 10-15% discount for most lists.  Give me an extra 200-300 points in most lists to start, and I'll feel extremely good playing into my local IJ players and SBGL players.

[Jaskier]

Just a reminder, the points in the GHB would have been printed well before the first survey results were sent in, so GW didn't 'ignore' anything. They print their books months in advance of release day, it wasn't possible for them to have incorporated that feedback into the GHB.

The December FAQ will be where we get to see if they listened or not. 

[AngryPanda]

48 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Here's hoping you're dead wrong. 

Yea, I’m hoping I’m wrong as well; but looking at GWs track record I don’t have much hope. Before every rumored update since the book released earlier this year, I’ve walked into with my hopes high only to have my expectations dashed. Now I’m starting to take a linear outlook, and when it comes to Slaanesh it doesn’t seem as if GW has a grasp on how to balance the book. Not from a rule perspective (I also think the rules are pretty good), but by balancing the points/summoning. 
 

Personally, I think it’s because they’ve adopted the philosophy that it’s better to have an army that’s underpowered and doesn’t impact gameplay, than create an army that overpowered and rocks the meta. At least by choosing the latter, they play it safe by not rumbling the jimmies of everyone in the community, as opposed to only collectors of Slaanesh. 
 

But who knows, maybe GW waited to get more data from tournaments before making changes. There has been some recent tournament results that have shown Slaanesh to be in the lower half, but not all the way at the bottom.
 

Deep down, I really want point adjustments and for them to do Slaangors justice because of how great the modes are, but the book has been out less than a year, and to see such warscroll changes from such a recent release is something I’ve yet to see from GW in a while, unless it was an accident on their part. 
 

I also have a suspicion that Slaanesh didn’t sell as well as other armies because of the poor rule reviews and overall anger from the community. The release of a battle box this early after the book’s release is unusual; this is more common to occur after over a year an army has been out so it can inspire people to begin collecting again. My guess is that they’re trying to get rid of the Slaanesh models that are overstocked from poor sales. In any case, it be interesting to see their sales figures for the Slaanesh releases, compared to other releases.
 

So, they may buff the units to incentivize us to buy, but I’m very doubtful. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by AngryPanda

[MothmanDraws]

21 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

 

I also have a suspicion that Slaanesh didn’t sell as well as other armies because of the poor rule reviews and overall anger from the community. The release of a battle box this early after the book’s release is unusual; this is more common to occur after over a year an army has been out so it can inspire people to begin collecting again. My guess is that they’re trying to get rid of the Slaanesh models that are overstocked from poor sales. In any case, it be interesting to see their sales figures for the Slaanesh releases, compared to other releases.
 

So, they may buff the units to incentivize us to buy, but I’m very doubtful. 

nah thats not true, lumineth wind temple (around jan 2021) came only 1-2 months prior to slaanesh(february) and Gravelords are newer coming out in May. Unless you think those also undersold. 3 of the 4 armies for battleboxes are sub 1 year since coming out and bonereapers are november last year so only barely over 1 year

editing

Slaanesh will always be the least popular chaos god due to many reasons 1. its historically had the least models so less chances to catch someone and less people have fond memories of them compared to say nurgle + khorne in fantasy 2. its a very niche aesthetic, not as many like running the pink and purple army, and is also an army that is very hard to paint 4. Its intended playstyle of glass canon+ speed is likely not as popular as "monster smash" that other gods do, its also a finesse army which would also put off new players. I do think poor rules didnt help the army but slaanesh will always be the lesser of the 4 in terms of sales. 

 

Overally my view on what likely happened with codex, a writer who doesnt care much for faction was given it, army was split due to some design thing or covid or whatever and the 2nd book came with brief of "we need this out fast, also tone it down". So what we got was warscrolls that feel very quickly done attatched to the previous great summoning engine (that they improved by changing it from hero focus to the more thematic "wounding not killing"). The issues with book was they never played into that summoning engine and building an army that wanted to play with its food. They made an interesting summoning engine and strapped it to a by the numbers "kill the opponent" warscroll roster.  

All this meant was the army became a nightmare to balance the points for a straightforward army that has a really janky summoning system built on, technically the points are correct for slaanesh if they assume perfect play and perfect rolls. Slaanesh if things go perfectly for it could get like an extra 1-2k points over a 6 turn game, but thats not what happens in practice, we are pointed assuming we get a huge snowball effect but are too weak to get it going. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by MothmanDraws

[Enoby]

35 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

Yea, I’m hoping I’m wrong as well; but looking at GWs track record I don’t have much hope. Before every rumored update since the book released earlier this year, I’ve walked into with my hopes high only to have my expectations dashed. Now I’m starting to take a linear outlook, and when it comes to Slaanesh it doesn’t seem as if GW has a grasp on how to balance the book. Not from a rule perspective (I also think the rules are pretty good), but by balancing the points/summoning. 
 

Personally, I think it’s because they’ve adopted the philosophy that it’s better to have an army that’s underpowered and doesn’t impact gameplay, than create an army that overpowered and rocks the meta. At least by choosing the latter, they play it safe by not rumbling the jimmies of everyone in the community, as opposed to only collectors of Slaanesh. 
 

But who knows, maybe GW waited to get more data from tournaments before making changes. There has been some recent tournament results that have shown Slaanesh to be in the lower half, but not all the way at the bottom.
 

Deep down, I really want point adjustments and for them to do Slaangors justice because of how great the modes are, but the book has been out less than a year, and to see such warscroll changes from such a recent release is something I’ve yet to see from GW in a while, unless it was an accident on their part. 
 

I also have a suspicion that Slaanesh didn’t sell as well as other armies because of the poor rule reviews and overall anger from the community. The release of a battle box this early after the book’s release is unusual; this is more common to occur after over a year an army has been out so it can inspire people to begin collecting again. My guess is that they’re trying to get rid of the Slaanesh models that are overstocked from poor sales. In any case, it be interesting to see their sales figures for the Slaanesh releases, compared to other releases.
 

So, they may buff the units to incentivize us to buy, but I’m very doubtful. 

Nice to see you around again!

I think, regardless of how well Slaanesh sold, it's very likely it would have sold better had their rules been better - but even then, it's hard to get hard knowledge from internet feelings. 

I can say with confidence (though admittedly no hard facts, just anecdotes and what we can take from the survey) that Slaanesh would have sold better had the reception of its rules been better. There have been countless people who have said "loved the models, but heard they were in a really bad spot competitively". It almost didn't matter if they were bad or not, all that mattered was the internet consensus was "book bad" and that was enough to put some people off - and definitely not a good luck on the rules team as a whole. In fact, I'd say this is the most negative the community has been about a book in AoS. 

In a way, if the book did sell badly and they could trace it back to rules, I'd hope they'd at least take that as a good reason to take a second look at the rules and make some public changes before the battleforce went on sale. Even from a pure corporate greed perspective, if they buff Slaanesh significantly then the battleforce box will likely win those over who are on the fence, whereas doing nothing would likely not sway them. 

I do think that, if any warscroll needs a change, it's the Slaangor - and the vast majority of people in the AoS online sphere agree on this. Maybe they'll think it's not worth buffing, or think it's too risky to buff (rather than nerf) such a recent release, but I'd like to think they can add extra end and extra damage as an easy fix that would be very unlikely to break them. Give them extra rend, +1 damage, and run and charge and they'd actually be a pretty great unit in my opinion (and much closer to their lore). 

Finally, it's almost certain that the rules team know the general consensus of the battletome - it'd be close to impossible for them to not to, not just from the survey but also from pretty much every online discussion surrounding Slaanesh. I think the GHB, regardless of how strong or weak we turned out to be, would have had the same points. The AoS 3 FAQ would have given us the changes we got as they were all standard changes that looked like nerfs (e.g. removing rerolling saves was game wide). 

I'd say that this coming FAQ is the only FAQ that we can say was definitely made with the appropriate amount of hindsight and data available. If we see no changes here, then we can assume GW does not see a problem at all - at least not yet. That doesn't mean the changes will be big (after all, it would be reckless of them to give out too many buffs and risk creating a monster), but if we see something positive then we know GW is listening. 

If we're lucky, we'll see some larger scale changes, but I wouldn't count on it. 

[Enoby]

For those interesting, here is my recent email to the AoS team for the survey.

Hi, 

 

I hope you're well

 

For a small amount of introduction, I'm Enoby and I've been pretty involved in the AoS Slaanesh community for a few years now. I'm a massive fan of the faction and, as you likely know, they have one of the most passionate communities in the game. 

 

When the most recent Slaanesh battletome was released, it was met with rather mixed reception. Many people liked how it was much more open with its list building (no longer relying so heavily on heroes), but some felt like some of the warscrolls were a bit bare. One of the most repeated complaints was that the points were too high. 

 

During this time, I (alongside other members of the community) conducted a survey to see what people thought about the new battletome, which garnered hundreds of responses. We sent this to you earlier in the year and I hope you found it at least a bit helpful (or at least insightful). 

 

In late August, after the release of AoS 3 and the dust had began to settle on where battletomes stood in the new edition, I thought it would be a good opportunity to see how people felt about Hedonites with another survey. The results have been compiled, and you can find a a collection of all of the answers in a detailed report here. 

 

I've also compiled a smaller report, as well as created a conclusion for your convenience. I'll copy the conclusion in this email, but I would strongly recommend visiting this forum post for a full overview.  

 

I'd like to stress that this isn't some big protest or some list of frustrations we want to vent - this survey was created for ease of information, a way to gather the nebulous consensus of the internet and put it in one easy to digest place. At the end of the day, what you will find in the answers and the stats is just subjective opinion, and we're certainly not demanding that you change everything at the drop of a hat - or even that some of the ideas in the survey would work. This isn't an attempt to try and make our faction stronger, but rather genuine fan passion for the rules; most of us didn't enjoy being too strong during the 2019 release and we're not trying to get back to that point. All we're asking is you take the time to read the survey and get a feel for the fan consensus - we're not asking for (or expecting) another book or any sort of preferential treatment, we're just hoping that when Slaanesh's time does come around again, you can have another look at this and maybe see if you like some of the ideas proposed. 

 

Which brings me on to my final point before giving the conclusion of the survey's findings. It was mentioned in a community post that there would be an attempt to create a bit of a balance-scroll for some factions or warscrolls that were lagging behind. All I'm asking is that in light of the upcoming balance sheet and/or the December FAQ is that you take a quick read through some of the findings and consider them in relation to any changes you may be thinking of making please. I don't think anyone is expecting any sort of drastic change or rewrite of the entire tome, but the suggestions (mentioned in the conclusion of the survey below) would go a long way to helping the Hedonites community - and those wanting to join but who have currently been put off by what is currently thought of as a weaker book (in internet consensus terms). 

 

Please note that, while the conclusion of the survey can be understood on its own, I'd recommend reading the full forum post to get a complete understanding if you haven't done so already.

 

Conclusion

Overall, there is a neutral to negative view of the battletome, with the majority of people saying they like the rules (60.5%) but also a larger majority saying they believe the battletome is below the average quality compared to other battletomes (66.5%) and a significant majority (88.6%) believing the majority of units are overcosted. 

Of the units people are most concerned about points-wise, Slaangors, the Keeper of Secrets, and Blissbarb Archers have highly significant numbers of people believing they are overcosted (P < 0.05), and the Daemonettes and Shalaxi Helbane are thought of as significantly overcosted (P < 0.1). I believe that these units should have another look over as there is a low probability (sub 5% and sub 10% respectively) that these units were considered overcosted due to chance, meaning that these are the units that drew the most powerful reaction from survey answers. No units had the answer “No I think they are too cheaply costed” as a majority. 

While it is expected (if not confirmed) that the units are priced so highly due to the army’s powerful ability to summon, it may be worth revising this or at least giving it another think over as Slaanesh players and opponents alike believe many of the points are too high regardless. Looking at some of the comments, some would prefer summoning to get worse and points to get lower, or for Slaanesh units not to pay for it at all. 

On the topic of summoning, 8.2% of people believe that it should be the main ‘theme’ in a Slaanesh army, though 38.1% of people say they like it when not asked about it specifically, and 46.6% of people like it when asked about it specifically (compared to 45.2% of people disliking it in some capacity). Overall, summoning is a controversial part of the battletome and, looking at these stats, I think it would be beneficial for the focus to be moved from summoning to another part of the faction’s theme. 

In addition to points and summoning, there was also a call for a rewrite on some warscrolls. The most called for was Slaangors, when not asked about them specifically 73% of people liked the idea of them getting a rewrite, and when asked specifically 76.3% of people wanted them to get a rewrite over a points adjustment. Other notable calls for a rewrite, 45.2% of respondents wanted to see a rewrite of the Shalaxi Helbane warscroll. 

From a more financial/popularity perspective, 64.7% of respondents have said that the points costs have negatively affected their purchases on Slaanesh models, with 22.4% of people saying they haven’t bought anything for Slaanesh because of the points costs but would have otherwise, and 42.3% saying they have bought some but would have bought more if not for the points.  

Of the positives of the book, the most popular part of the book was the innate speed of the army, with 62.3% of people saying they liked this aspect of the book. In addition, the other liked parts was the frequency of rend in the faction (45.2%) and the new mechanics of Depravity Points though not necessarily the summoning (45.2%). 

When asked about what the preferred theme of a Slaanesh battletome should be, the responses were mixed but the highest one was “a finesse playstyle” (31%), followed by “speed” at 23.8%.

Looking to the future, a number of responses were given to what they would like to see in the future. The most popular of these requests is a rewrite to the Slaangor warscroll, with 70.8% of people asking for this. Other popular requests included “More support within the allegiance abilities for mortal only armies” (50.2%), “Synessa getting an extra spell” (54.1%), “An alternative way of using depravity points” (48%), “More synergies available” (48.4%), “More hosts/host options to theme an army around” (47%), and “An expanded mortal spell lore” (44.8%). While many of these options may be a struggle to include quickly, I think it would be fantastic if they could be included in the next battletome or in supplementary books (such as Wrath of the Everchosen) or a Tome Celestial.

Overall, I think that there is a good base for future rules in this battletome, but it faces two major issues - the first is oppressive points costs, with some players feeling as if they are restricted in list building. The second is that the tome feels a bit bare bones - it’s a good foundation, but there’s not much meat to get into with lists; e.g. there are very few synergies or combos, the hosts give very minor bonuses, the daemon spell lore is multiple ways to do mortal wounds and the mortal spell lore is weak and very sparse. That said, with a few tweaks (hopefully using some of these answers as a guide) I think that the book could be fantastic and I fully appreciate that the previous battletome was a bit too strong as so a lot of effort had to be spent on toning it down. 

---

 

Thank you very much for your time, and I hope you have a lovely rest of the week.

[AngryPanda]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Nice to see you around again!

I think, regardless of how well Slaanesh sold, it's very likely it would have sold better had their rules been better - but even then, it's hard to get hard knowledge from internet feelings. 

I can say with confidence (though admittedly no hard facts, just anecdotes and what we can take from the survey) that Slaanesh would have sold better had the reception of its rules been better. There have been countless people who have said "loved the models, but heard they were in a really bad spot competitively". It almost didn't matter if they were bad or not, all that mattered was the internet consensus was "book bad" and that was enough to put some people off - and definitely not a good luck on the rules team as a whole. In fact, I'd say this is the most negative the community has been about a book in AoS. 

In a way, if the book did sell badly and they could trace it back to rules, I'd hope they'd at least take that as a good reason to take a second look at the rules and make some public changes before the battleforce went on sale. Even from a pure corporate greed perspective, if they buff Slaanesh significantly then the battleforce box will likely win those over who are on the fence, whereas doing nothing would likely not sway them. 

I do think that, if any warscroll needs a change, it's the Slaangor - and the vast majority of people in the AoS online sphere agree on this. Maybe they'll think it's not worth buffing, or think it's too risky to buff (rather than nerf) such a recent release, but I'd like to think they can add extra end and extra damage as an easy fix that would be very unlikely to break them. Give them extra rend, +1 damage, and run and charge and they'd actually be a pretty great unit in my opinion (and much closer to their lore). 

Finally, it's almost certain that the rules team know the general consensus of the battletome - it'd be close to impossible for them to not to, not just from the survey but also from pretty much every online discussion surrounding Slaanesh. I think the GHB, regardless of how strong or weak we turned out to be, would have had the same points. The AoS 3 FAQ would have given us the changes we got as they were all standard changes that looked like nerfs (e.g. removing rerolling saves was game wide). 

I'd say that this coming FAQ is the only FAQ that we can say was definitely made with the appropriate amount of hindsight and data available. If we see no changes here, then we can assume GW does not see a problem at all - at least not yet. That doesn't mean the changes will be big (after all, it would be reckless of them to give out too many buffs and risk creating a monster), but if we see something positive then we know GW is listening. 

If we're lucky, we'll see some larger scale changes, but I wouldn't count on it. 

I agree with your points, though I’m still very skeptical; within less than a year (assuming they change the points again next month), it would mean that Slaanesh would receive three (!) point value changes since February of this year. I’m not sure if GW would be willing to make these changes so rapidly; there might be a change to Slaangors, but if there any changes to the points they’d probably be minuet at best as you mentioned.
 

I’ve been a Blades of Khorne player since 2016, and GW has yet to update any of the mortals to actually be decent. Blood Warriors will continue to be bad unless they also get a revamp, whereas the other mortal units are “ok” and don’t do anything unique/special. The best way to field a Khorne army is through bloodthirster spam and cheap bloodeavers to fill necessary battleline slots. 

It just seems that GW is very slow when it comes to updating armies have obvious problems, and even though updating the points or warscrolls would be the logical thing to do, there’s a slew of other armies that have been neglected for a while now and haven’t been fixed (Skaven, Sylvaneth, GSG, BoK, NH). It just seems general trend is to not fix stuff, and then move onto other projects. 

[JackOfBlades]

How have you guys found the myrmidesh and particularly the symbaresh to work? To me, they seem like they have their niche against other melee armies that dont have charge bonuses. But against shooting, mortal wounds from magic, and strong charge bonuses like dracothian fulminators, i would suspect they are too slow to be effective.

Edited November 25, 2021 by JackOfBlades

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, JackOfBlades said:

How have you guys found the myrmidesh and particularly the symbaresh to work? To me, they seem like they have their niche against other melee armies that dont have charge bonuses. But against shooting, mortal wounds from magic, and strong charge bonuses like dracothian fulminators, i would suspect they are too slow to be effective.

I rely too much on "cheap" (relatively) battleline (hellstriders, chariots) that is faster and generally "expendable" to really fit either into my lists - backed up by blissbarb seekers, who are somewhat durable and generate DP well. 

I could see painbringers as a pseudo anvil (if they were cheaper) and twinsouls as a potential hammer (if other things were cheaper, making room for them - its less about their cost and more about how the heck do I fit them in for what I need).

I dont hate either warscroll, but they feel currently awkward when I'm trying to make something work. 

[JackOfBlades]

10 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I rely too much on "cheap" (relatively) battleline (hellstriders, chariots) that is faster and generally "expendable" to really fit either into my lists - backed up by blissbarb seekers, who are somewhat durable and generate DP well. 

I could see painbringers as a pseudo anvil (if they were cheaper) and twinsouls as a potential hammer (if other things were cheaper, making room for them - its less about their cost and more about how the heck do I fit them in for what I need).

I dont hate either warscroll, but they feel currently awkward when I'm trying to make something work. 

This is my problem too as i try to brainstorm slaaneshi lists id like, i just dont have the points to take what i want (which reiterates what has just been gone over in this thread). To be fair, part of the reason for that is that i love the whole army... haha... in particular i keep going 5-10 points over the 2000 limit, it's really frustrating.

Edited November 25, 2021 by JackOfBlades

[Beliman]

12 hours ago, Enoby said:

I can say with confidence (though admittedly no hard facts, just anecdotes and what we can take from the survey) that Slaanesh would have sold better had the reception of its rules been better.

That's a good point. I don't collect Slaanesh but I really want to!! They are one of the most exotic armies in the game, stunning miniatures and their Lore seems really vast to explore. I expected to see some "secret cults" looking for the most bizarre experiences in an already bizarre setting. Gluttos tasting everything? You got me. Sigvald being Sigvald? I'm in!!

So let's go a bit deeper and see why I didn't start collecting Slaanesh:

Looking at this forum and how this army is played, I find myself in a corner were I need to collect Daemonettes and chariots, my least liked sculpts. So, to understand what happens here, before I buy anything, I know that my least favorite sculpts are the main  units. Not a good start.

My next point is Allegiance Abilities, that's the "core" of the army and the first read to know how they play: Depravity Points and that's it. An army of exotic artefacts, secrets that nobody knows, interactions like KOS Dark Temptations, the feeling of playing a mysterious persian/arabian/wannabe Xerxes Empire... is build around DPs and maybe a delivery system (better charge or Lurid Haze's ambush). I mean, Fyreslayers have runes, Lumineth have Aetherquarz, Cities have retinue and a bunch of things,... (/facepalm).

Rules can change, but the lore remains. Maybe there is a lot more going on with Slaanesh subfactions (their "civilizations"):

• Invaders: Warband with more than one general.
• Pretenders: One leader that is more pretty (?).
• Godseekers: They march on chariots better than others.

Wow, I need to compare them to other battletomes. Let me read the fancy text on Kharadrons Skyports:

• Barak-Mhornar: The shadow-city. This skyport disappeared from the map, nobody knows were they are now, and still have a sit in the Geldraad (Kharadron Parliament). They feel more about pirates than classic Kharadrons, more about smugglers than traders.

Bad news, Slaaneshi warbands are booooooooring. Why a High Tempter and his/her Blissabrb Archers wants to follow your general? If it's all about pretty leaders, why they don't have a retinue? Where are the blade-sects in the rules and how many are there? Slaangors in a Sybarite-army, maybe as pets...?

I want to know how their society/empire works, their diferences, why people follow their pretty leaders and what they expect from them. There is a lot of focus on their leaders, but what they want to achieve? Maybe Daemonhood? Just be rich and sexy? Wannabe Frank Cotton from Hellraiser? Just reading their descriptions, they feel like slaaneshii-marked Warriors of Chaos with fancy sculpts (Lore-wise).

Conclusion: Slaanesh sculpts are awesome, but they feel the same as Warriors of Chaos with Mark of Slaanesh.-

Edited November 25, 2021 by Beliman

[MothmanDraws]

6 hours ago, JackOfBlades said:

How have you guys found the myrmidesh and particularly the symbaresh to work? To me, they seem like they have their niche against other melee armies that dont have charge bonuses. But against shooting, mortal wounds from magic, and strong charge bonuses like dracothian fulminators, i would suspect they are too slow to be effective.

I have seen lists do well with them, however because our battle line is so expensive most lists usually pick 1 troop type and lean into it, like lop and 3 min units of painbringers or 1 brick of twinsouls. They feel like they want to be there to roadbump ppl getting to your blissbarbs but good luck affording enough of them + 2 units of blissbarb  for them to actually stop anything.

 

Painbringers tend to perform better than expected, though they are built as half hammer half anvil so are ok at both but dont do either amazingly. Twinsouls are same as possessed for 40k, they can do amazing into certain lists and when fully buffed but good luck keeping shardspeaker with them and praying her stuff goes off.

Personaly id rather a. Painbringers were cheap enough to work better as defensive units, or their damage and survivability went up so they are actually an expensive but scary wall.

Twinsouls just need to be cheaper and for shardspeaker to be more reliable 

 

[JackStreicher]

13 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

At this point, it wouldn’t surprise me that one or more members of the rule team occasionally reads what we posts, and remembers when they got tabled multiple times by some guy with a neckbeard the size of a small child and fingers covered who grease and Cheetos, who used the original HoS book with the old OP Locus of Diversion. They probably still have PTSD, and want to make us suffer like they did by giving us updates that are the exact the opposite of what we suggest/wish for.

Well if they ever actively talked to the community, the whole "Slaanesh dominated *whip* the entire game for a year+" wouldn't have happened. Yet ignorance it what GW does best. They create all of their own problems and then ignore them, because, you know, the interwebs is new and dangerous, rather keep people in the dark and ignore their filthy nerd opinions.

 

Easiest, sleekest fix which would also result in point reductions: Limit the amount of depravity that can be generated per Battleround. - Tada. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

*Snip*

I definitely think you raise some good points, and unfortunately it's true that Slaanesh's rules have always been more thin on the ground than other armies, which is quite ironic because they had one of the most extensive GHB allegiance abilities.

I wrote a long post on it ages ago, but to sum up, the reason summoning became such a big deal was because it's what initially boosted the army up competitively in the GHB, which went over the top in 2019's battletome, and subsequently ended up becoming their identity as it was the biggest problem. 

Now I think a lot of people would like the focus to swap from summoning - or at least for there to be a choice. I'm personally not a huge fan of relying on daemons when I'd prefer my army to be all mortal, and would like that to be a viable option. 

I'm hoping, with how negative fan reaction has been around the book, either the next battletome or rules supplement does some cleaning work.

@AngryPanda I think you're right to be concerned with their track record of other books, but on the other hand, I've never seen such a vocal outcry compared to Slaanesh. I personally think the Blades of Khorne book is the worst (not weakest) book in AoS, and it's had every single person in our community who used to play Khorne stop playing them (5 people). However, the discussion online seemed relatively mild to kind of disappointed.

Slaanesh discussion is (fittingly) the exact opposite and personally I think some people overstate how bad the book is, to the point that it seems like they want the book to be made even worse so they complain more. Regardless, the wider AoS community has basically only bemoaned the book and some streamers/YouTubers take every opportunity to dunk on it. Even though there are weaker books, and in my opinion, some worse written books, I doubt you can find one more reviled. 

[MothmanDraws]

My view on that as i also collect gitz another weak book is in my view khorne and gitz play like they should. They are weak but are thematic and sell the idea of arny, they are just weak. Hence people are not as mad, Slaanesh i still argue doesnt play like slaanesh themes, it has speed sure (though its not the fastest, teleports make others feel more maneuverable and we have no move shenanigans like wind temple) and it has "torture not kill" but only on its summoning, its only good at giving pain not taking it, all the S and none of the M. But nothing about it really screams perfection, artistry or other aspects, its just "run fast and tickle them until you become a swarm army"

[Sorrow]

10 hours ago, Beliman said:

I want to know how their society/empire works, their diferences, why people follow their pretty leaders and what they expect from them. There is a lot of focus on their leaders, but what they want to achieve? Maybe Daemonhood? Just be rich and sexy? Wannabe Frank Cotton from Hellraiser? Just reading their descriptions, they feel like slaaneshii-marked Warriors of Chaos with fancy sculpts (Lore-wise).

Taking into account that "Slaanesh is trapped" is one of major plot narratives of Age of Sigmar, the sheer lack of lore on Hedonites is absolutely tragicomic. We got a few short stories and that parody in BR: Kragnos where the Twins get one shot by a family of witch hunters with a magical bullet. Other factions get full novels, some even several, exploring the various themes of the faction.

Slaanesh has always been the most unpopular Chaos deity not because of reasons @MothmanDraws wrote (though they factor in too) but because Slaanesh is deity which explores a bit more mature aspects of life.

Skulls and blood, great!

Disease and guts, amazing!

Semi-naked bodies and excess? STOP RIGHT THERE YOU CRIMINAL SCUM!1

@AngryPanda

Glad to have you back among us, my friend.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Sorrow

[Sorrow]

Just now, Sorrow said:

Taking into account that "Slaanesh is trapped" is one of major plot narratives of Age of Sigmar, the sheer lack of lore on Hedonites is absolutely tragicomic. We got a few short stories and that parody in BR: Kragnos where the Twins get one shot by a family of witch hunters with a magical bullet. Other factions get full novels, some even several, exploring the various themes of the faction.

Slaanesh has always been the most unpopular Chaos deity not because of reasons @MothmanDraws wrote (though they factor in too) but because Slaanesh is deity which explores a bit more mature aspects of life.

Skulls and blood, great!

Disease and guts, amazing!

Semi-naked bodies and excess? STOP RIGHT THERE YOU CRIMINAL SCUM!1

@AngryPanda

Glad to have you back among us, my friend.

 

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Taking into account that "Slaanesh is trapped" is one of major plot narratives of Age of Sigmar, the sheer lack of lore on Hedonites is absolutely tragicomic. We got a few short stories and that parody in BR: Kragnos where the Twins get one shot by a family of witch hunters with a magical bullet. Other factions get full novels, some even several, exploring the various themes of the faction.

Yes, you are right. But I wasn't talking what they are doing "now". 

I was talking about how they live, how they interact with other societies, what they think... this kind of stuff. Just an small glimp of their society. I'm still reading the battletome, but some pics show a lot of columns and some structures that belong to Slaanesh, maybe that's part of their Empire (if any)?

Spoiler

Are they always on the road like Cult of Speed Orks? They come from all realms, societies and even tribes, but what happens when a rich noble wants to pursue some dark desires? He/she just follows a Sybarite Carnival... and then the warband give him/her a bow and some silk robes? Who carries the Fane to the battle? Or maybe all warbands have a bunch of expert builders just for that? What happens if they take a city? Can they maintain it?

Don't get me wrong, even if I want to know the world building around slaanesh, I love the narrative too (appart from BR story... it started really good with the prophecy), and I hope to see all of this reflected in the rules. I want the whole pack! 

I need to read the Battletome because I'm pretty sure that I will discover a lot of awesome things. This kind of stuff is what motivates me to do a warband or a full collection (or neither). 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Beliman
Grammar and the Magnificent

[MothmanDraws]

IIRC one of the bits of lore for slaangor is what happens after conquest, they struggle with their beastmen desire to destroy and their slaanesh love of trinkets and the trappings of society. So after raiding a city they kind of have mini existential crisis before being distracted by the next raiding target.

I think the slaanesh warbands lore leaves a good amount of room for custom building lore, but would be nice to hear if there are more permanent settlements considering that slaanesh tends to be more comfortable supporting construction than the others.

My armies personal lore is that they were turned away at the door to slaanesh's realm where the guards demand tribute, every time they return with greater trophy only to find the toll for the gate rises forever. Yet the warlords hubris and pride mean he will never stop acquiring the spoils needed for entry,

Each time they leave the core of the army is whittled down till now only most dedicated can continue their eternal pilgrimage. The army has little daemon backing, with only a few lesser daemons who occasionally arrive more to laugh at their sisyphean task then actually help.  Only a single keeper of secrets follows them around silently taking notes for some comedic opera its writing based on the warlord, the lesser ranks of the blissbarbs in army are often "elevated" by infernal enrapturists to compose their more sorrowful arias. Overall they are kind of a ****** army but the rest of hedonite army finds them funny to watch from the tops of the gates as they are turned away yet again, its gone on so long none of the guards even know why they were turned away in first place, and some other armies often send them fresh recruits and supplies (mockingly labelling them as "our patronage to your art") to make sure the joke never truly ends.

[Carnith]

I'm glad to see the Slaanesh forum being active again. I've been taking a break from the faction and enjoying my orcs. It's fun when your 160 points of models gets buffed from 115 support hero and they actually go and do work.

Hopefully when points go down, I'll try out the army again. I'm considering the box. As much as it's just looking to be pain and no pleasure, maybe things will change. 

[Enoby]

6 hours ago, Carnith said:

I'm glad to see the Slaanesh forum being active again. I've been taking a break from the faction and enjoying my orcs. It's fun when your 160 points of models gets buffed from 115 support hero and they actually go and do work.

Hopefully when points go down, I'll try out the army again. I'm considering the box. As much as it's just looking to be pain and no pleasure, maybe things will change. 

I think, until that December changeover was announced, we were all in a bit of a limbo with an army that felt like it could be much better - now there's some hope! I am cautious still, but even a small change would be welcomed. 

My worry is that, if we see no change (or worse, a bad change), we can pretty much give up hope on any timely improvement. A small change would at least show a willingness to listen (even if it doesn't help now, they've accepted there is a problem). 

Even if Slaangors remain a joke, a relatively significant (like 10% across the board) points drop would help a lot. That would mean Keepers going to 380, Myrmadesh going to 145, Slickblades to 210, and Blissbarbs going to 160. It may not seem like a massive improvement, but I think it'd get the ball rolling a bit. 

If we're really lucky, we might see some of the requested allegiance ability changes, but I don't think we will now (I think they'll charge us for it in a White Dwarf or expansion book in a number of months). 

[Benkei]

Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment

[JackOfBlades]

5 hours ago, Benkei said:

Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment

Blessed is the mind too limited to hope.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Me and a buddy are attending a doubles tournament soon and decided it would be fun to run our low tier armies for it. He's running a trogoth gitz list and I'm running lurid haze with Sigvald. The irony is palpable. Here's the lists:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
- Grand Strategy: Vendetta
- Triumphs: Indomitable

Leaders
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (265)*
- Host Option: General

Battleline
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)*
11 x Blissbarb Archers (180)*

Units
5 x Slickblade Seekers (230)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 995 / 1000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 2
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 53
Drops: 1

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
- Option: Glogg's Megamob
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Dankhold Troggboss (250)*
- General
- Command Trait: Shepard of Idiotic Destruction
- Artefact: Aetherquartz-studded Hide
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (295)*
- Lore of the Spiderfangs: Gift of da Spider God

Battleline
6 x Fellwater Troggoths (310)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Rockgut Troggoths (145)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1000 / 1000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 2
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 62
Drops: 1

We're probably screwed but let's see how many heroes Sigvald can snipe by the end of the day.