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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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10 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Interesting, I wouldn't have thought this to be the case. Isn't most of our MW damage not "in addition" but "and the attack sequence ends" though? Does this affect the stats? 

There will be no difference in mortal wounds averages, but there would be a difference in average damage :) It still works out in a similar way, with exploading 6s and 6s to wound doing mortal wounds doing more damage than mortal wounds on hits by a small amount. 

However, I think we have a split of models that do mortal wounds in addition to damage and just ending the sequence. 

The KoS/Shalaxi do mortal wounds on 6s to wound and end the sequence, and Glutos does 2 mortal wounds on a hit, but ends the sequence on the sword. Blissbarb seekers do 1 mortal wound on a wound roll with the attack sequence ending but don't benefit from Euphoric Killers so would always be better having mortal wounds on 6s to hit. 

Painbringers and Slickblade Seekers do mortal wounds to wound in addition to normal damage. 

So 6s being mortal wounds is really only better for Blissbarb Seekers, and pretty equivalent (but a bit worse) on everyone else :) 

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I think the problem is the Snowball effect of our army. You start with 1500 pts in the table and you rely on summoning 1000 pts to get the upper hand later. Most competitive armies are made to destroy and melt high value of points in a single turn. The game is explosive and rely on a thin balance to work. If you both start with 2000 pts and 2000 pts can destroy 500 pts in a turn, then you both need to play that turn correctly so next turn is 1500 pts vs 1500 pts, thats because points is your tankiness but also your damage output and your score (mostly bodies) capability.

The moment you start with 1500 pts and the enemy with 2000 pts there is a high chance he erase 500 of your points and leave you with 1000 pts to retaliate. It is not imposible to generate 1000+ points and take the upper hand, but is extremely uphill. If you are erasing enemy threats then you are not generating enough DP. This force you to play anvils and scatershots to generate the DP at the cost of not erasing enemy threats.

It works the other way too. If someone got a really good game and summon 30 Daemonettes/1 KoS a turn, then he snowballs too hard and end in a really good position. But the chance of doing so are few, and as tested, even BoC can win tournaments in the hands of the best players in the world.

Most people would like to see the cost of summoning going up and the cost of basic troops going down to make it more akin to the other 3 chaos gods. None of them are paying extra tax for summoning. They play 2000 pts armies and summon like 500 pts and thats it.

We got MW spam (specially in exalted chariots) and ranged attacks (both kinds of Blissbarbs are good) anvils (Painbringers, Glutos) and hammers (Twinsouls, Sigvald, KoS, Fiends) and even screens (Daemonettes, Hellstriders). The problem is this roles are measured by points per value, so we got the worst anvils and hammers in the game compared to any other army.

Slaanesh design is not perfect, but the only "musts" that i see to fix it is cost of summoning going up, cost of troops going down, rewrite of Slaangor warscroll (they currently do nothing). The rest is just wishlisting for the following battletome.

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2 hours ago, Enoby said:

There will be no difference in mortal wounds averages, but there would be a difference in average damage :) It still works out in a similar way, with exploading 6s and 6s to wound doing mortal wounds doing more damage than mortal wounds on hits by a small amount. 

However, I think we have a split of models that do mortal wounds in addition to damage and just ending the sequence. 

The KoS/Shalaxi do mortal wounds on 6s to wound and end the sequence, and Glutos does 2 mortal wounds on a hit, but ends the sequence on the sword. Blissbarb seekers do 1 mortal wound on a wound roll with the attack sequence ending but don't benefit from Euphoric Killers so would always be better having mortal wounds on 6s to hit. 

Painbringers and Slickblade Seekers do mortal wounds to wound in addition to normal damage. 

So 6s being mortal wounds is really only better for Blissbarb Seekers, and pretty equivalent (but a bit worse) on everyone else :) 

I don't know how you did your math, but 18 attacks 3+/3+ with MWs to hit do 3 MWs, while 18 attacks 3+/3+ with double hit on 6s and MWs on wound rolls of 6 deal 2'48 MWs. This is simply because you roll less dice to wound than to hit. The moment you go to 4+ (Blissbarb Seekers) the formula go even worse because you are loosing more dices in the hit roll, doing 1'5 MWs instead of 3.

And im all in with Slaanesh having exploding 6s, we don't need more MW spam (we can play chariots if they are correctly pointed). Will not mind MWs to wound becoming an allegiance ability tho (lovely for Daemonettes)

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9 minutes ago, Yoid said:

I don't know how you did your math, but 18 attacks 3+/3+ with MWs to hit do 3 MWs, while 18 attacks 3+/3+ with double hit on 6s and MWs on wound rolls of 6 deal 2'48 MWs. This is simply because you roll less dice to wound than to hit. The moment you go to 4+ (Blissbarb Seekers) the formula go even worse because you are loosing more dices in the hit roll, doing 1'5 MWs instead of 3.

And im all in with Slaanesh having exploding 6s, we don't need more MW spam (we can play chariots if they are correctly pointed). Will not mind MWs to wound becoming an allegiance ability tho (lovely for Daemonettes)

I don't know if you saw it, but my math was on the previous page and it found the same thing you did - however, while you do fewer mortal wounds with MWs on 6 to wound and exploding hits on 6s, you do more damage overall as you end up with more hits. My conclusion was that you end up being in a better position with our current rules on Slickblades and Painbringers as you do more overall damage (by like .5), and pretty much the same with a KoS overall. And in my next post, I said that blissbarb seekers are in a worse position with our current rules compared to MWs on hits :)

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Plenty of Mortal Wound output in our coalition units though. Maybe not as much as some armies but we definitely have a few decent options. I get if people want to play a purist one book approach rather than using the extended army options but that's a choice you're making. However, if you're not going to use the options that are there I don't really understand the complaints. We can't have an answer to every question in a book as then the game becomes very flat and formulaic.

As for the battle tactics, they're a huge part of winning games in 3.0 and working out the best approach to scoring the maximum each game is how you win. So yes, if we save the Starting Army ones until the end we might struggle but our opponent has the same struggle as we summon half an army more to wipe their starting units and deny them the points if we play clever. Besides, even that's not really true, there are 8 Battle Tactics and only 2 are restricted to our Starting Army as well so I really don't think it's a valid complaint. Especially when both of those can be scored very easily in the first turn or two if you really want to pick them.

The Grand Strategies are based around Starting Army a lot more and for obvious reason, it's the army's purpose and not the purpose of those that have suddenly flocked to the battlefield at the last minute as they heard there was  a good fight! However, they're 3VP over the course of a whole game and you plan them at list building stage so they're usually more of a tie-breaker and there are no surprises on them. You should know how you're going to score it and if you don't that suggests you've picked the wrong one. Personally, I stick nearly exclusively to Prized Sorcery because we've got some great units to lean into that with Glutos who is incredibly difficult to kill, Synessa who doesn't need to engage to be of use and access to cheap coalition Wizards, useful allied wizards or any non-Unique character from our book or our coalition books with the Tome. 

Edited by Elazar The Glorified
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1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I don't know if you saw it, but my math was on the previous page and it found the same thing you did - however, while you do fewer mortal wounds with MWs on 6 to wound and exploding hits on 6s, you do more damage overall as you end up with more hits. My conclusion was that you end up being in a better position with our current rules on Slickblades and Painbringers as you do more overall damage (by like .5), and pretty much the same with a KoS overall. And in my next post, I said that blissbarb seekers are in a worse position with our current rules compared to MWs on hits :)

I see. I believe if you give +1 to hit to Painbringers and Slickblades they deal exactly the same number of MWs on average than MWs to hit because you average the same number of hits than dices you roll to hit (with the potential of doing less or more sometimes). That is because mathematically exploding 6s equall to +1 to hit, so they get the same average as an autohit unit (a 1+ to hit unit). If you roll exactly the same number of dices to hit and to wound, then you perform the same number of MWs in both rolls.

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6 hours ago, Enoby said:

 

Just as an important point, even if it doesn't sound intuitive, mortal wounds on 6s to hit (in addition) vs mortal wounds on 6s to wound (in addition) plus extra hits on 6s to hit do very similar numbers of mortal wounds, with the latter doing more damage against a 3+ save overall.

Mortal wounds on 6s to hit with 18 attacks:

Screenshot_20210823-070417_Chrome.jpg.d97c397b8cb1a8dbf2d41e54fbc1d367.jpg

(Orange bar is Mortal Wounds)

Mortal wounds on 18 attacks (15 hits)

Screenshot_20210823-070333_Chrome.jpg.f81ba6e00f33783aaf8c1822cb825370.jpg

The difference is very small and overall it works out better to do mortal wounds on 6s to wound. It would be a nerf for this to be changed to hits :)

I was not expecting that. Thanks 

Mortal wounds on 6s to hit win out with abilities to reroll your hits but even then it s still pretty close

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4 hours ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Plenty of Mortal Wound output in our coalition units though. Maybe not as much as some armies but we definitely have a few decent options. I get if people want to play a purist one book approach rather than using the extended army options but that's a choice you're making. However, if you're not going to use the options that are there I don't really understand the complaints. We can't have an answer to every question in a book as then the game becomes very flat and formulaic.

As for the battle tactics, they're a huge part of winning games in 3.0 and working out the best approach to scoring the maximum each game is how you win. So yes, if we save the Starting Army ones until the end we might struggle but our opponent has the same struggle as we summon half an army more to wipe their starting units and deny them the points if we play clever. Besides, even that's not really true, there are 8 Battle Tactics and only 2 are restricted to our Starting Army as well so I really don't think it's a valid complaint. Especially when both of those can be scored very easily in the first turn or two if you really want to pick them.

The Grand Strategies are based around Starting Army a lot more and for obvious reason, it's the army's purpose and not the purpose of those that have suddenly flocked to the battlefield at the last minute as they heard there was  a good fight! However, they're 3VP over the course of a whole game and you plan them at list building stage so they're usually more of a tie-breaker and there are no surprises on them. You should know how you're going to score it and if you don't that suggests you've picked the wrong one. Personally, I stick nearly exclusively to Prized Sorcery because we've got some great units to lean into that with Glutos who is incredibly difficult to kill, Synessa who doesn't need to engage to be of use and access to cheap coalition Wizards, useful allied wizards or any non-Unique character from our book or our coalition books with the Tome. 

Which coalition unit would you recommend that has some decent mortal output? I ve found coalition units are usually great for their points but they no longer benefit of any of our allegiance abilities so they are never the obvious choice

Savage spearhead, monstruous take over and ferocious advance are all three restricted to units from your starting army. I don t think savage spearhead can easily be scored early unless you play the battleplans with the player territories cover the map or you re in lurid haze. Monstruous takeover require a monster which many of my lists don t start with one, granted other armies are in the same situation but with the extra ppints they get for not paying the summoning tax it s a lot easier for them to include one. The ferocious advance is probably the one that makes the sense for me to declare every game turn 1 as I usually will not be able to score it in later turns

Priced sorcery is my default grand strategy as well and I ve yet to fail to complete that one with Glutos being so tanky

Edited by azdimy
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On the topic of Mortal Wounds, I would highly suggest not sleeping on Exalted Chariots of either variety.  They do about 5 to EVERY enemy within 1" between their charge and start of combat effects, with extreme reliability.  Even against a single tough target, two of them are a serious threat of nearly instant, unavoidable death via mortals and weight of attacks.  

And they are STUPID cheap to summon at 7/9 DP.  

Edited by KrispyXIV
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27 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

On the topic of Mortal Wounds, I would highly suggest not sleeping on Exalted Chariots of either variety.  They do about 5 to EVERY enemy within 1" between their charge and start of combat effects, with extreme reliability.  Even against a single tough target, two of them are a serious threat of nearly instant, unavoidable death via mortals and weight of attacks.  

And they are STUPID cheap to summon at 7/9 DP.  

My problem with the exlated chariot is that it overhangs so much of  its base that I built mine on an Archaeon size base which looks great but isn t tournament legal

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18 minutes ago, azdimy said:

My problem with the exlated chariot is that it overhangs so much of  its base that I built mine on an Archaeon size base which looks great but isn t tournament legal

I would use the exalted chariots much more if they weren't a massive pain to transport - their overhang and grabby blades just suck to stick in a foam case.

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37 minutes ago, azdimy said:

My problem with the exlated chariot is that it overhangs so much of  its base that I built mine on an Archaeon size base which looks great but isn t tournament legal

I typically end up moving them back-first into enemy units to get them to fit reasonably...

Which I'll admit, isn't ideal. 

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51 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Which coalition unit would you recommend that has some decent mortal output? I ve found coalition units are usually great for their points but they no longer benefit of any of our allegiance abilities so they are never the obvious choice

Savage spearhead, monstruous take over and ferocious advance are all three restricted to units from your starting army. I don t think savage spearhead can easily be scored early unless you play the battleplans with the player territories cover the map or you re in lurid haze. Monstruous takeover require a monster which many of my lists don t start with one, granted other armies are in the same situation but with the extra ppints they get for not paying the summoning tax it s a lot easier for them to include one. The ferocious advance is probably the one that makes the sense for me to declare every game turn 1 as I usually will not be able to score it in later turns

Priced sorcery is my default grand strategy as well and I ve yet to fail to complete that one with Glutos being so tanky

Working in reverse order.

I felt like I'd missed one when I said there were 2, sorry. We have easy access to fast units and/or ambushing so we have an easier time than some armies with Savage Spearhead. Ferocious Advance is a safety choice for Turn 1, especially if running units like Blissbarb Archers. Monstrous Takeover is the other very easy one to score whether using Monsters like Synessa or keeping a cheap Wizard that can use Metamorphosis. I don't think many armies will have the full choice of 8. Importantly Broken Ranks, Slay the Warlord and Bring it Down can not only be scored using our Summoned units but the bonus points are available on our summoned units such as Keepers. 

For the coalition units and Mortal Wounds, I'm enjoying using the Bullgors at the moment because of the combination with the -2 Rend. The one that stands out for me in Slaves are Varanguard with their Daemonforged Blades (I think). With their Relentless Killers rules they get to feel like a proper Hedonites unit too. Obviously the Chaos Sorcerer Lord ramps up their output with Daemonic Power and if you want to fight twice more often a Chaos Lord can do that.

A Warshrine using Curse adds Mortal Wound output against a certain target rather than for specific units. I think somebody already mentioned this for Blissbarb Archers who if you also stack it with Acquiescence or All-Out Attack put out some ludicrous numbers against even 2+ saves but you obviously are reliant on the Warshrine getting the prayer off (only a 50% chance without any bonuses)

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3 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Working in reverse order.

I felt like I'd missed one when I said there were 2, sorry. We have easy access to fast units and/or ambushing so we have an easier time than some armies with Savage Spearhead. Ferocious Advance is a safety choice for Turn 1, especially if running units like Blissbarb Archers. Monstrous Takeover is the other very easy one to score whether using Monsters like Synessa or keeping a cheap Wizard that can use Metamorphosis. I don't think many armies will have the full choice of 8. Importantly Broken Ranks, Slay the Warlord and Bring it Down can not only be scored using our Summoned units but the bonus points are available on our summoned units such as Keepers. 

For the coalition units and Mortal Wounds, I'm enjoying using the Bullgors at the moment because of the combination with the -2 Rend. The one that stands out for me in Slaves are Varanguard with their Daemonforged Blades (I think). With their Relentless Killers rules they get to feel like a proper Hedonites unit too. Obviously the Chaos Sorcerer Lord ramps up their output with Daemonic Power and if you want to fight twice more often a Chaos Lord can do that.

A Warshrine using Curse adds Mortal Wound output against a certain target rather than for specific units. I think somebody already mentioned this for Blissbarb Archers who if you also stack it with Acquiescence or All-Out Attack put out some ludicrous numbers against even 2+ saves but you obviously are reliant on the Warshrine getting the prayer off (only a 50% chance without any bonuses)

Thanks

Monstruous takeover is not possible with metamorphosis as you need to select a monster from your starting army at the beginning of the hero phase before you can cast metamorphosis. I need to look at the bullgor warscroll and possinly alternate sculpts for them it sounds like 😀

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Well I just had my shortest ever game -- I conceded at the end of turn 1 after my opponent killed Dexcessa, Sigvald, and 11 Blissbarbs and also got the double. He was SCE. 

Long story short: 2 drops each, my opponent won the roll-off and had me go first, and I ambushed his "weak" flank which was spear battleline guys, general, masked wizard and Yndrasta about 12-14" away in the centre. His other flank had Gotrek and 5 spear guys so that was basically unassailable. 

Sigvald and Dexcessa both charged his spear guys, no other viable targets being in range. Sigvald and Dexcessa combined managed to only kill 4 spear guys, and my Blissbarbs, who'd also ambushed, put two wounds on the wizard. 

On his turn I put finest hour on Dexcessa, not realising the utterly insane MW output of SCE would render it irrelevant. To make matters worse, 2 x 3 Annihilator units came down and put through 5 unsaved mortal wounds on Sigvald (my rolls tonight were, and I cannot stress this enough, just utterly cursed, while my opponent was seemingly making every 4+ save and getting a 3 for all his d3 wound rolls). Yndrasta shooting finished Siggy off, Dexcessa died to MWs, my opponent got off a 9" charge to hit the Blissbarbs and killed most of them with MW output, and I conceded. 

So yeah. New Stormcast are a super rough matchup for us and losing the priority roll both matches against them hasn't helped. I'm not really sure what to do against their high armour saves, deepstriking capabilities and frankly insane MW output. I lost 750 points to them in turn one! Almost enough to make me miss facing LRL. Almost. 

Edited by LeonBox
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2 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Well I just had my shortest ever game -- I conceded at the end of turn 1 after my opponent killed Dexcessa, Sigvald, and 11 Blissbarbs and also got the double. He was SCE. 

Long story short: 2 drops each, my opponent won the roll-off and had me go first, and I ambushed his "weak" flank which was spear battleline guys, general, masked wizard and Yndrasta about 12-14" away in the centre. His other flank had Gotrek and 5 spear guys so that was basically unassailable. 

Sigvald and Dexcessa both charged his spear guys, no other viable targets being in range. Sigvald and Dexcessa combined managed to only kill 5 spear guys, and my Blissbarbs, who'd also ambushed, put two wounds on the wizard. 

On his turn I put finest hour on Dexcessa, not realising the utterly insane MW output of SCE would render it irrelevant. To make matters worse, 2 x 3 Annihilator units came down and put through 5 unsaved mortal wounds on Sigvald (my rolls tonight were, and I cannot stress this enough, just utterly cursed, while my opponent was seemingly making every 4+ save and getting a 3 for all his d3 wound rolls). Yndrasta shooting finished Siggy off, Dexcessa died to MWs, my opponent got off a 9" charge to hit the Blissbarbs and killed most of them with MW output, and I conceded. 

So yeah. New Stormcast are a super rough matchup for us and losing the priority roll both matches against them hasn't helped. I'm not really sure what to do against their high armour saves, deepstriking capabilities and frankly insane MW output. I lost 750 points to them in turn one! Almost enough to make me miss facing LRL. Almost. 

I ve had some good success using chaos knights/ chaos warriors in my Hedonites against SCE. The 5+ against mortal wound help a lot and going to 3+ save make them pretty tanky

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17 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Thanks

Monstruous takeover is not possible with metamorphosis as you need to select a monster from your starting army at the beginning of the hero phase before you can cast metamorphosis. I need to look at the bullgor warscroll and possinly alternate sculpts for them it sounds like 😀

Is that in the FAQ? It uses capitals to refer to the MONSTER keyword and the spell gives you the keyword so as long as the unit was in your starting army it's the same rules interaction as the Arcane Tome making you a WIZARD just shorter term 

Edit: Ignore me. Wouldn't work because you have to pick the Battle Tactic before you could cast the spell. 

I generally have been scoring it with Synessa whilst she lurks beyond my opponent's range sniping with Pavane but handy to know my backup isn't a valid plan.

Edited by Elazar The Glorified
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3 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

 

Is that in the FAQ? It uses capitals to refer to the MONSTER keyword and the spell gives you the keyword so as long as the unit was in your starting army it's the same rules interaction as the Arcane Tome making you a WIZARD just shorter term 

At the beginning of the hero phase you pick battle tactic -> Monstrous Takeover requires you to pick a MONSTER but at that point (beginning of the hero phase) you haven't cast Metamorphosis yet so the unit is not a MONSTER -> they cannot be selected for the battle tactic

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3 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

 

Is that in the FAQ? It uses capitals to refer to the MONSTER keyword and the spell gives you the keyword so as long as the unit was in your starting army it's the same rules interaction as the Arcane Tome making you a WIZARD just shorter term 

It does not need one, you don t gain the keyword until it s cast and you only get it until your next hero phase. At the time you select monstruous takeover you do not have the monster keyword so it s not possible

Arcane tome is an artefact that gives you the keyword totally different from a spell

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2 hours ago, Carnith said:

So I decided to buy myself Belakor. The store I go to had one on the shelf. It was there for two hours before I picked it up. He doesn't stick around for long. 

Planning on using him in Hedonites and in my 40k Daemons of Slaanesh.

One of the best models they've ever done, and doubly valuable if you use him in both games!

I can't remember if it was a regional issue, but make sure to use the online PDF of his build instructions in case there's a print error in your physical copy, it could save you a big headache later. 

Edited by Jaskier
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I don't remember what it was exactly but it was important enough that they did an article highlighting it to make sure everyone knew; errors in instructions are pretty common even in newer kits, but this is the first time I can remember where they went out of their way to address the issue publicly.

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