AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[azdimy]

Having played 5 games with the lord of pain in aos 3 now, I find his CA to be a lot less useful. Being issued in the combat phase, it competes with all out attack and all out defense. Are you fielding a lord of pain? He s my warlord in our Path to glory campaign and I m about to retire him unless I can get convinced otherwise

[Enoby]

27 minutes ago, azdimy said:

Having played 5 games with the lord of pain in aos 3 now, I find his CA to be a lot less useful. Being issued in the combat phase, it competes with all out attack and all out defense. Are you fielding a lord of pain? He s my warlord in our Path to glory campaign and I m about to retire him unless I can get convinced otherwise

Generally, in fact in nearly all cases especially with exploding 6s, rerolling hits is better than +1 to hit. So if the choice is between that and +1 to hit, the LoP command ability is better. All out defence (and Lurid Haze) is also in competition, but they tend to be used for different reasons, and may be needed elsewhere. 

I don't tend to use the LoP CA loads, but I do have him follow around Twinsouls to help them when their ward's up. Mostly I find his use in making Twinsouls battleline and everything else is extra. Tbh his damage isn't too bad!

[dicebod]

5 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Generally, in fact in nearly all cases especially with exploding 6s, rerolling hits is better than +1 to hit. So if the choice is between that and +1 to hit, the LoP command ability is better. All out defence (and Lurid Haze) is also in competition, but they tend to be used for different reasons, and may be needed elsewhere. 

I don't tend to use the LoP CA loads, but I do have him follow around Twinsouls to help them when their ward's up. Mostly I find his use in making Twinsouls battleline and everything else is extra. Tbh his damage isn't too bad!

Completely agree. As far as foot heroes go he hits decently enough (2D is nice) and already comes with a 5+ ward. I used to just think of him as a tax but honestly he's growing on me.

[azdimy]

28 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Generally, in fact in nearly all cases especially with exploding 6s, rerolling hits is better than +1 to hit. So if the choice is between that and +1 to hit, the LoP command ability is better. All out defence (and Lurid Haze) is also in competition, but they tend to be used for different reasons, and may be needed elsewhere. 

I don't tend to use the LoP CA loads, but I do have him follow around Twinsouls to help them when their ward's up. Mostly I find his use in making Twinsouls battleline and everything else is extra. Tbh his damage isn't too bad!

I m playing in godseekers. His low bravery also makes him unreliable for heroic recovery. Rend -1 seems to have little to no impact with units being able to counter the 1 rend with all out defence. Sounds like he would be good if I had twinsouls on the battlefield which I do not yet. Right now he s only using his CA on himself and every time I m finding going all out defence is better for him since he does not go through armours (except when he wards off wounds on 6s)

[Elazar The Glorified]

Played a game last night against Kruleboyz.My opponent used the rules for Big Yellers from Warhammer Community. We figured there's probably more to them than just what we've seen but if you're not familiar it adds 3" to the range of all their shooting, the Man-skewer Boltboyz become Battleline and in the first battle round they get to reroll 1s to hit on their shooting.

I resisted the lure of changing my list at the 11th hour to include a load of Bullgor and instead went with:

 

Invaders

Battle Regiment

Shardspeaker - General, Master of Magic, Levitate

Glutos

Synessa

11 Blissbarb Archers

11 Blissbarb Archers

5 Hellstriders

The Dread Pageant

 

Be'lakor 

Wheels of Excruciation

Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery

 

The battleplan we rolled for was First Blood with the L-shaped corner deployment and one of the objectives is the Vantage Point to gain a bonus command point. 

I was glad to be just a 2 drop list to his 3 or 4 as the amount of mortal wounds the Kruleboyz put out from their shooting is scary without rerolling 1s and extra range. Deployed everything outside his maximum range and gave him the first turn so he never got to enjoy the rerolling 1s. A few games played in 3.0 and I think the 1 or 2 drop list remains king for Priority at the start. 

Was conscious that Be'lakor and Synessa as Monsters were giving up 1VP each if they got taken down and with no ward save they were both very vulnerable to the Man-skewer Boltboyz. Particularly once the two Shamans in my opponents' list bumped them to 5s for the mortal wounds. The plan was to have them skirt around on the edges of things to begin with until I could remove some of the threat of the Boltboyz.

In the end the threat of the Boltboyz wasn't fully removed until the 4th battleround. They were out of range battle round 1 and in battleround two I took advantage of them being bubble wrapped with their Shamans by Hobgrotz by charging in the Hellstriders dragging everything into one horrific combat but by putting All Out Defence on them in both my combat phase and my opponent's following shooting phase I managed to tie them up so only one unit of the Boltboyz eventually managed to shoot Glutos for a couple of wounds. The Hellstriders did a good job and sold their lives well but my opponent got the double-turn going into battleround 3 so was to capitalise on them being free and boy did they make the most of it!

Just as an introduction to that… Be'lakor. Kruleboyz, I felt, didn't have any standout target's for maximising The Dark Master so I sat on it waiting for a clutch turn where it would most disrupt my opponent and might be useful and then, frankly, I forgot about it! I remembered it after a Shaman had pushed a unit of the Boltboyz onto the 5+ to hit becoming 2 mortal wounds and they started rolling the hit dice on their Hasty Shots… 14 Mortal Wounds just removed Be'lakor. Be'lakor had been useful prior scoring a Battle Tactic and I definitely see his value against the god-level heroes but against the lesser stuff he felt a bit of a spare part and, purely to my poor play and mistake, he was worse for not having a high-value target because I waited too long for one to emerge.

Between the Shardspeaker, Be'lakor, Synessa and Glutos I was able to throw about a fair few minuses to hit and wound but there's nowt like Mortal Wounds on unmodified hits to cancel a fair chunk of that out. 

Glutos was MVP for me again. I pushed him out to hold my left flank supported by just The Dread Pageant. My love for Glutos only continues to grow. He is such a brilliant tank and his rules are so fluffy. He beat up on the Killaboss on Gnashtoof, he was tied up by Hobgrotz and then a big block of Gutrippaz. My personal highlight was him taking those Gutrippaz down to 1 model on 1 wound after he had fought on a turn I put Gorge on Excess on him and then a Summoned Keeper let him fight again so he healed by 8 wounds when he'd been 3 off of dying followed by a Heroic Recovery so it looked like he'd barely broken a sweat by the end. He was then pretty key in getting rid of the Boltboyz through a combination of Wheels of Excruciation, Arcane Bolts and his entourage just plain clobbering them!

I'm feeling the love for Synessa now also. I think a few people have said now, she doesn't do anything spectacularly. She looks all round underwhelming on paper but she does just enough of everything that she's definitely going to remain in the list. Being a monster that doesn't need to push up too close to contribute she was a great utility. She got stuck in when I needed the bonus VP for a Monster killing a battleline unit but otherwise skirted around clipping mortal wounds off where I could. 

The Shardspeaker I think has ran her course in my lists for the minute. She just hasn't really contributed a great deal. I risked her holding an objective on my right flank by herself at one point, hoping that the more imminent threat of other units might keep her safe but my opponent went for Slay the Warlord and the Boltboyz took her out. 2CP gained from her holding the objective broke even with the 2CP for my opponent. Going to try some little tweaks to this list and she'll be making way for sure.

The Dread Pageant had probably their quietest games of the ones I've used them in. They didn't contribute a huge amount but yet again they stuck around and chucked their 4 extra bodies to tip objectives where needed. Threw themselves into combats alongside Glutos in particular but also my Blissbarbs to support and chip away. They always fly under the radar and do ok as they're just tough enough to require a concerted effort to remove but too small to not quite justify it! If I can make space for them I'll continue to build them into lists. 

Anyway, eventually, I managed to get hold of the Boltboyz properly and once I did the game tipped in my favour until there was nothing left of my opponent's army and I'd pulled clear on VP. It was very tight at one point but summoning helped me recover from the brutality of the third battleround.

[LeonBox]

4 hours ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Played a game last night against Kruleboyz.My opponent used the rules for Big Yellers from Warhammer Community. We figured there's probably more to them than just what we've seen but if you're not familiar it adds 3" to the range of all their shooting, the Man-skewer Boltboyz become Battleline and in the first battle round they get to reroll 1s to hit on their shooting.

How many Boltboyz did he field in total, out of interest? Sounds rough losing Be'Lakor like that. 

[Elazar The Glorified]

6 hours ago, LeonBox said:

How many Boltboyz did he field in total, out of interest? Sounds rough losing Be'Lakor like that. 

Would have been the 18 in total. 2 units of 9 with them being Battleline for Big Yellers. 18 shots per unit if they're going for Hasty Shots with an effective range of 20". Ouch!

Full list was roughly:

Killaboss on Great Gnashtoof

Killaboss w/ Stab-grot

Swampcalla Shaman w/ Pot-grot

Swampcalla Shaman w/ Pot-grot

10 Gutrippaz

10 Gutrippaz

10 Gutrippaz

9 Man-skewer Boltboyz

9 Man-skewer Boltboyz

[pnkdth]

20 hours ago, azdimy said:

I m playing in godseekers. His low bravery also makes him unreliable for heroic recovery. Rend -1 seems to have little to no impact with units being able to counter the 1 rend with all out defence. Sounds like he would be good if I had twinsouls on the battlefield which I do not yet. Right now he s only using his CA on himself and every time I m finding going all out defence is better for him since he does not go through armours (except when he wards off wounds on 6s)

Yeah, without Twinsouls/Painbringers there's little reason to take a LoP. Making TS/PBs battleline and supporting them with his CA is his jam. As a single character with the role of a beatstick there are better options. That said, in an Invander's host the +2 wound trait makes him quite durable (7W 4+/5++)and compared to many other similar options (like vampire lords, wight kings, other "average" leaders) having 5 3/3+ D2 attacks is nice for consistency (as many of the other armies similar heroes have D3 wounds). You can then enhance his support rule with Icon of Infinite Success or combat with the rapier.

Though since you run Godseekers, I think the Threnody Voicebox is an interesting option given how common big scary monsters who are also characters are now. Flat out removing one attack from multi-wound attacks can be huge (Durthu, VLoZD, GKoTG, etc). Speed-chaser is a good way to protect him from staying in bad fights and also for DP. On the other end, Enrapturing Circlet is lovely in controlling your opponent. The Godseeker +1 to charge is really nice for footslogging armies too! Especially for me since I'm expert in rolling 8s rather than 9s when not playing Godseekers. 

All in all, the LoP is a decent mid-level leader which either needs to be general to make TS/PB battleline or be there to support a unit of TS to justify his place in a list. Or... If you find a creative way from him to bolster another mortal unit with his CA. 

[TimeToWaste85]

Did anyone in this thread pick up dominion? If anyone can confirm Myrmadesh arms will fit on the Vindicator torsos, I can get 10 for $35 right now. 
 

****** it, it’s $35. Purchased! I’ll show off when they’re done up. Should arrive next Friday. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by TimeToWaste85

[Enoby]

With news of updates coming in  White Dwarfs throughout the year, do you think we'll see something?

If so, I think it may be a good idea to send them some wishlist emails if indeed they are looking to flesh some factions out for AoS 3, they may take the option to address some issues (like the Syll'Esske host being added to give mortals a place in Slaanesh). I think I'll suggest a non-summoning form of Slaanesh and pray for a Slaangor rewrite (though this is unlikely as I don't think they like rewriting warscrolls in White Dwarf). 

Of course, we don't know how these Tome Celestials will work - they could be really bare bones rules updates (just a few battalions) and nothing else. But as far as we know, they could be a wide variety of things

[Carnith]

For a Slaanesh based Tome Celestial, I'd rather they rebalance Syll'esske's host to not just be summoning all the time, but rather do what we started thinking of in prior pages. Make dedicated hosts that offer some synergy for units and make it interesting. 

Sigvald with painbringers and lords of pain

Syll'esske should be a focus on twinsouls with having that mortal/daemon mix

Glutos could be archers or could be seeker units. 

The twins should have a faction for both of them, having separate hosts wouldn't work in my opinion lore wise.

At least some faction should have a buff for our ranged units. Blissbarb archers are too fragile to spam, but some faction that gives me some buff would be nice.  

[PiotrW]

Guys, a question, if you don't mind

I checked the current point values for HoS and I noticed that almost all of the units became more costly than before. The Blissbarbs costs 180 points now... What do you think? Good thing, bad thing? I remember that a few months ago some of you mentioned they felt GW needs to change the HoS point values - but I'm not sure if the expected change was for them to cost more or *less*?

[KrispyXIV]

37 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Guys, a question, if you don't mind

I checked the current point values for HoS and I noticed that almost all of the units became more costly than before. The Blissbarbs costs 180 points now... What do you think? Good thing, bad thing? I remember that a few months ago some of you mentioned they felt GW needs to change the HoS point values - but I'm not sure if the expected change was for them to cost more or *less*?

Points increases were not expected, as it was largely believed the costs in the book already accounted for across the board cost increases in 3.0.

...that was apparently not the case.  

There was a lot of panic about the costs at the onset of the edition, but I think that's calming down some as people play the faction and are winning games without the extreme uphill battle that was expected.  

Note that GW has confirmed that units pay for in faction summoning, and I think Slaanesh is paying about 30%.  Daemonettes on their own feel like a 105 point unit, Blissbarbs 140, etc.

Having played several games, and given the powerful nature of our summoning, I only have significant reservations for costs on the extremes of things.  That is, I don't hurt that much paying 140 for 10 daemonettes (as Battle Line) but I dont think I'd pay 420 for a blob of 30.  Likewise, a Keeper definitely is hard to justify when I feel like I'm paying over 100 points of tax.  

A unit of 30 Blissbarbs at least has the advantage of being usable for some shenanigans, like sneaking them upfield with Lurid Haze. 

That said, many of the other expensive units (Glutos, the Twins) feel fine.  Expensive, but fine.  

On the other hand, if you don't like the summoning everything is going to feel overcosted because you're paying for the summons - I personally love it, and feel it works out about right.  

Edited August 1, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Carnith]

I would actually kill for a tome celestial to bring down the cost of everything and yeet summoning. The whole "bring a worse 2k than everyone else and hope you summon 1000 more points" is really defeating. if I could only ever summon a single keeper or 10-20 daemonettes, that'd be great. Plus there are things I'd rather summon but can't, such as 6 fiends. Let me summon an actual anvil unit. 

[TimeToWaste85]

So, I need a bunch of Myrmadesh heads for that Vindicator conversion I mentioned. Can anyone help? I’m in the US. Trade or purchase, if needed. 

[The World Tree]

Hey folks, what is a reasonable and efficient to purchase summoning pool? I'm planning for a mortals-oriented army (Synessa/Dex as maybe the only daemons in the starting roster)

[TimeToWaste85]

9 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

Hey folks, what is a reasonable and efficient to purchase summoning pool? I'm planning for a mortals-oriented army (Synessa/Dex as maybe the only daemons in the starting roster)

Get yourself 30 daemonettes (one max unit), a keeper, 3 fiends and an exalted chariot. I think that covers a good summon pool for you

[KrispyXIV]

29 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Get yourself 30 daemonettes (one max unit), a keeper, 3 fiends and an exalted chariot. I think that covers a good summon pool for you

Second this recommendation.  I'm personally going to add more exalted chariots to my collection because, IMO, its the best bargain in faction both for points or DP, but the max daemonettes, fiends, and keeper address the utility cases where you might need a unit for a specific role on demand.

[Nagashfan]

5 hours ago, Carnith said:

I would actually kill for a tome celestial to bring down the cost of everything and yeet summoning. The whole "bring a worse 2k than everyone else and hope you summon 1000 more points" is really defeating. if I could only ever summon a single keeper or 10-20 daemonettes, that'd be great. Plus there are things I'd rather summon but can't, such as 6 fiends. Let me summon an actual anvil unit. 

Yes 6 fiends summons plz

[azdimy]

5 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Hey folks, what is a reasonable and efficient to purchase summoning pool? I'm planning for a mortals-oriented army (Synessa/Dex as maybe the only daemons in the starting roster)

In addition to what other people have said, get 5 seekers, 1 enrapturess and 1 vice leader as well

[azdimy]

How does Slaanesh deal with mega gargants? I m finding we dont really have an answer for a 35 wound hero on a 3+ save with all out defence. How do you deal with them? 

[Nagashfan]

43 minutes ago, azdimy said:

How does Slaanesh deal with mega gargants? I m finding we dont really have an answer for a 35 wound hero on a 3+ save with all out defence. How do you deal with them? 

Fiends were good against them in 2nd, not sure how much all out defence will help them as I haven’t played them yet. But could use fiends and a way of blocking commands.

[azdimy]

19 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Fiends were good against them in 2nd, not sure how much all out defence will help them as I haven’t played them yet. But could use fiends and a way of blocking commands.

A unit of 6 fiends with only 5 being able to fight will do about 15 wounds to a 4+ save and down to 11.5 wounds to a 3+ save mega gargant . We re not even half way there and there big base mean it ll be hard to bring any more units to add to that

[Jaskier]

Fiends are tricky because of their base size and the new coherency rules, meaning you'll either be sacrificing a bunch of claw attacks or a few stinger attacks. Slap All Out Attack (if no double pile-in is available) and Acquiescence around, then if a whole unit of 6 get to attack it looks like they outdamage 10 Symbaresh against a 3+ Mega-Gargant, but that's a big if.

The best way to kill it seems to be going for either massed Rend 2 or mortal wounds - and being in the Hunters battalion so you don't get messed up by a Roar. 10 Chaos Knights with lances and Daemonic Power from a Sorcerer Lord are probably the best bet as they can get buffed up so much without using command abilities (meaning they are eligible for a double pile-in command instead) that they stand a good chance of taking one down in a single round after a double activation, especially as being Slaves you can stack a lot of save bonuses on them without needing All Out Defence so they don't lose much from the return swing. The big issue with them is how reliant they are on Daemonic Power being cast. Outside of them, I can only assume Archaon with Daemonic Power is probably the best bet.

Whatever your plan is absolutely should involve tag-teaming the unit of choice with a monster, as Megas aren't immune to Roars themselves. The monster need not survive as the Roar is activated in the charge phase, so feel free to use a cheap monster - force your opponent to choose between killing it or reducing the number of swings coming at it from the chosen units' second activation!

Edited August 2, 2021 by Jaskier

[azdimy]

6 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Fiends are tricky because of their base size and the new coherency rules, meaning you'll either be sacrificing a bunch of claw attacks or a few stinger attacks. Slap All Out Attack (if no double pile-in is available) and Acquiescence around, then if a whole unit of 6 get to attack it looks like they outdamage 10 Symbaresh against a 3+ Mega-Gargant, but that's a big if.

The best way to kill it seems to be going for either massed Rend 2 or mortal wounds - and being in the Hunters battalion so you don't get messed up by a Roar. 10 Chaos Knights with lances and Daemonic Power from a Sorcerer Lord are probably the best bet as they can get buffed up so much without using command abilities (meaning they are eligible for a double pile-in command instead) that they stand a good chance of taking one down in a single round after a double activation, especially as being Slaves you can stack a lot of save bonuses on them without needing All Out Defence so they don't lose much from the return swing. The big issue with them is how reliant they are on Daemonic Power being cast. Outside of them, I can only assume Archaon with Daemonic Power is probably the best bet.

 

10 knights with daemonic power is what I have but do I need to also bring a chaos lord as well to be able to double plle in?