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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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17 hours ago, Cambyses said:

No double attack means that you're reliant on the Flaming Weapons cast, but any opponent worth his salt will save an unbind for it, which means it is quite unreliable, meaning you're fishing for 6s to do meaningful damage.

I don't play Slaanesh so I'm not 100% aware of all the interactions that might boost the viability of Flaming Weapons on the Keeper, but generally I think the spell gets overrated a bit at the moment.

Flaming Weapons competes for a cast with Arcane Bolt for melee heroes. With the new rules, you can expect 2 mortal wounds out of a Bolt. How Flaming Weapons compares to that depends a bit on how much you value normal wounds compared to mortals, but I think valuing a mortal wound as highly as 1.5-2 regular wounds is an OK rule of thumb (given that they ignore saves). So you would probably need about 3-4 wounds out of Flaming Weapons to break even.

Flaming Weapons only increases the damage of one of your melee profiles by one, so you want one with a lot of attacks that hits often. For the Keeper, that's probably the Great Blade, at 3+/3+ and up to 4 attacks. 3+/3+ is just about a 50% change to hit, so you will probably get about 2 extra rend -1 damage out of the deal. I think that's just not enough to make Flaming Weapons worth using over Bolt.

Of course, there are a few other factors at play here. The Keeper gets two casts, so you could do both Flaming Weapons and Arcane Bolt. Slaanesh gets double taps on 6s, which brings up the numbers a bit. Arcane bolt is slightly harder to cast, which I did not account for. But still, I think in a lot of cases Flaming Weapons is not worth going out of your way to pick up, and I'd mostly prefer running spells that situationally have a larger impact.

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4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I don't play Slaanesh so I'm not 100% aware of all the interactions that might boost the viability of Flaming Weapons on the Keeper, but generally I think the spell gets overrated a bit at the moment.

Flaming Weapons competes for a cast with Arcane Bolt for melee heroes. With the new rules, you can expect 2 mortal wounds out of a Bolt. How Flaming Weapons compares to that depends a bit on how much you value normal wounds compared to mortals, but I think valuing a mortal wound as highly as 1.5-2 regular wounds is an OK rule of thumb (given that they ignore saves). So you would probably need about 3-4 wounds out of Flaming Weapons to break even.

Flaming Weapons only increases the damage of one of your melee profiles by one, so you want one with a lot of attacks that hits often. For the Keeper, that's probably the Great Blade, at 3+/3+ and up to 4 attacks. 3+/3+ is just about a 50% change to hit, so you will probably get about 2 extra rend -1 damage out of the deal. I think that's just not enough to make Flaming Weapons worth using over Bolt.

Of course, there are a few other factors at play here. The Keeper gets two casts, so you could do both Flaming Weapons and Arcane Bolt. Slaanesh gets double taps on 6s, which brings up the numbers a bit. Arcane bolt is slightly harder to cast, which I did not account for. But still, I think in a lot of cases Flaming Weapons is not worth going out of your way to pick up, and I'd mostly prefer running spells that situationally have a larger impact.

Agree with a lot of this. From my games so far I think it's a nice to have in your back-pocket rather than to plan around. I tried it on Syll’esske's Scourge for example and I think you'll see the most benefit from it on profiles like that and the Contorted Epitome's where it's doubling the damage output of a high volume of normally 1 damage attacks as it can suddenly turn it into a bit more of a blender weapon or something that other Heroes / Monsters need to be more concerned about. 

If nothing else it seems to draw out an Unbind attempt much quicker than Arcane Bolt with my opponents so far! 

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1 hour ago, Enoby said:

Thanks very much for the write up! 

Just touching on this point, I've found the exact same thing and I have no clue why. His average damage against a 4+ save without any buffs is about 10. If he goes all out with +1 to hit and +1 to wound, his average damage is 15~ against a 4+ save.

However, every single time I've used him he manages to defy expectations and fluff everything. A lot of other people have had this experience too. His damage is about the same as a Keeper's and yet he performs much worse every time.

Is this model cursed? 🤔

I actually do a little bit better with him usually -- indeed, in the next turn and without the benefit of Keeper assistance, I think he put 6 wounds through on a 3+ unrendable save (those Stoneguard are as tough as OG Ironbreakers). Of course, he brings a lot of benefits to the table outside of damage output, and indeed I think he'd be overpowered if he was reliably putting 15 damage a turn through on a 4+ save (for instance). Also his warscroll spell is, judging by how much my opponents hate it, fantastic. 

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10 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I actually do a little bit better with him usually -- indeed, in the next turn and without the benefit of Keeper assistance, I think he put 6 wounds through on a 3+ unrendable save (those Stoneguard are as tough as OG Ironbreakers). Of course, he brings a lot of benefits to the table outside of damage output, and indeed I think he'd be overpowered if he was reliably putting 15 damage a turn through on a 4+ save (for instance). Also his warscroll spell is, judging by how much my opponents hate it, fantastic. 

Yeah, I think upon reflection Glutos was the one warscroll we had in AoS 2 that could have been considered undercosted. While a 75pt boost is steep, I think he was close to an autoinclude last time and now he's more of a very good tank, only to be taken if you need a tank. His damage is kind of secondary - if he does it then it's a cherry on top of an unkillable debuffing wall. 

While a lot of people are down about him, I really like him. Now, if we ever get a good mortal spell lore I would be overjoyed 

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So just heard back from Michael about his list

@Nagashfan if you're interesied :)

"The list is designed to maximise with the use of battletactics and scenarios. Synessa and belakor are disruption pieces which help mitigate against the double turn plus any god lists. The archers pick on any threat, that I need them too. Against the dok the 2 units took out 7x stalkers in one turn. 30 inch range with both units using 1 of the vanguard command is handy. Twinsouls and belakor are the hard hitting combat units"

They then said you could swap Be'lekor and a unit of Hellstriders out for Glutos and you'd have a similar list :) I think Be'lekor and Glutos have similar damage, with Glutos being more survivable.  

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Bit of a daft question but have people experimented at all with their Keeper of Secrets weapon setups with the new edition? Cause im thinking that the value of the whip has gone up somewhat given a lot of people want to bring monsters atm with the new rules and plethora of large monster special characters currently.

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Interesting to get some of the rationale on the list @Enoby

Funnily enough I was playing with a couple of list ideas for last night and one was to see if I could get something I liked with both Glutos and Be'lakor and one I want to try is:

Warlord Battalion

Be'lakor

Infernal Enrapturess - General (Delusions of Infallibility), Amulet of Destiny

Synessa

The Dread Pageant

 

Battle Regiment 

Glutos

The Masque

11 Blissbarb Archers

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears

 

Grand Strategy

Prized Sorcery

 

Endless Spells

Chronomatic Cogs

 

Going to try this out in my next game or two. It has all the currently non-negotiable pieces for me (Glutos, The Dread Pageant, Hellstriders and Blissbarb Battleline) and feels like the possibile end-goal of my obsession with the Prized Sorcery Grand Strategy that seems to have become a bit of a constant in all my list ideas at present. Glutos, Synessa and Be'lakor feel like 3 good Wizards to tie those VP to and not have to be scared of getting the most from them. The Enrapturess and the Masque then add some toolbox smaller heroes to occupy oppenents. 

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31 minutes ago, Vurtias said:

Bit of a daft question but have people experimented at all with their Keeper of Secrets weapon setups with the new edition? Cause im thinking that the value of the whip has gone up somewhat given a lot of people want to bring monsters atm with the new rules and plethora of large monster special characters currently.

I haven't. I did try a list without the hand and using the Aegis when we first got the rules to see if I was happy with the level of healing with the Heroic Actions as an option (didn't use any of the generic artefacts for my game as we didn't have a chance to look at them properly before our game as it was the day the free rules came out). My Keeper rode its luck a bit for staying alive but if you made sure you had a healing spell I'd reckon it's worth trying. I think there are some doubts about the Keeper at the moment but if you have a clear purpose for them that'll help. I'm not sure you'd necessarily want them going into Monsters to get the most from the whip without something to back it up though... 

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Just starting to get into Slaanesh, but I was able to get a game in with them vs Skaven playing the vice battleplan.

 

Leaders
Sigvald 
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer Lord
Infernal Enrapturess
Infernal Enrapturess

Troops
3 min squads Blissbarb Archers
20 Chaos Warriors
3 Varanguard

I went pretenders but forgot ahead of time that named folk cant have CA so it was a bit of a waste to use this host for what I wanted to do since I still wanted Sigvald to be the general. I used the Chaos Lord and Sorcerer Lord to babysit the Chaos Warriors and to buff them up. They held the middle of the board nicely and handled their job nicely. Against armies other than Skaven im not sure how they would have held up but I didnt have to use all out defense on them either which was nice. 

It mightve been bad luck but the Varanguard got wiped out in one round of attacks by a hell pit so for them to sink me 280 pts and do no damage stung a lot. Not sure I would include them again as I thought they would be on the board longer than turn 2! I think since they are the same points im better off bringing in Dexcessa given the praise they've received on here

Sigvald got a 12 on a charge roll which felt good as I took out a Grey Seer on Screaming Bell in one round of attacks. He got tarpitted by the 40 ish clan rats that were around him for essentially the rest of the game but I think that was more my fault for not retreating when I had a chance to do so. He never died though so I cant complain about a one shot onto a general + holding up some battleline. 

Im used to playing ogres, so im still getting used to playing dainty units. I learned my lesson quick by charging a hellpit with a unit of blissbarbs hoping they would do a few points of damage to bracket it further than it was. They did not and got rolled off the table quickly. 

It was a close game but I was able to win in the end thanks to the chaos warriors controlling the sole remaining objective turn 4 and 5 and me getting some great timing on Round Specific objectives. I was also able to start dropping a KoS each round from round 3 onwards but next time I think I would go a block of 30 daemonettes instead if i was playing this battleplan again.

 

 

Im enjoying the army a lot though as its a bit of a challenge. Making a mistake with them hurts a lot more than ogres so I think itll benefit my game for both of the armies as I learn to play a bit more nuanced and with finesse. 

Edited by Schauer
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All the Bel'akor talk makes me want to run something like -
 
Hedonites of Slaanesh - Godseekers Host
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot (General, Sweeping Slash, Flaming Sword, Amulet of Destiny) - 265

Dexcessa - 280

Synessa - 260 
Be'lakor (STD Lore Spell?) - 360
Enrapturess (Cameo of the Dark Prince) - 140
Enrapturess - 140 
Blissbarbs - 180
Blissbarbs - 180
Daemonettes - 140
1945
 
Which is probably too many monsters even in monster meta, and likely too light on bodies.  
 
Also not sure what to spend the remaining 55 points on.  
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14 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Be'lakor (STD Lore Spell?) - 360

Just so you know, you don't get lore spells from other armies unfortunately :) That said, Be'lekor is good enough without

 

49 minutes ago, Schauer said:

It mightve been bad luck but the Varanguard got wiped out in one round of attacks by a hell pit so for them to sink me 280 pts and do no damage stung a lot. Not sure I would include them again as I thought they would be on the board longer than turn 2! I think since they are the same points im better off bringing in Dexcessa given the praise they've received on here

Unfortunately Varanguard are in a bit of a rough spot in HoS - they get effectively 0 allegiance ability, don't do very much damage without sixth circle and Archaon, and they're not particularly tanky or fast. Especially as they have worse shields than chaos warriors :(

I'd definitely recommend Dexcessa over them, though Dex is 100% a finesse model so you may see them die a lot when you get used to piloting them - I'd recommend a proxy to test if you like their playstyle :)

Glad you enjoyed the rest of the game!  

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1 minute ago, Enoby said:

Just so you know, you don't get lore spells from other armies unfortunately :) That said, Be'lekor is good enough without  

Yeah, I was uncertain.  My understanding is that Be'lakor, as a unique character, is also locked out of the General Spell Lore as it didn't get the "including unique wizards" errata all the book lores got... which is a shame since Flaming Weapon would be pretty amazing on his high volume sword profile. 

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3 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Yeah, I was uncertain.  My understanding is that Be'lakor, as a unique character, is also locked out of the General Spell Lore as it didn't get the "including unique wizards" errata all the book lores got... which is a shame since Flaming Weapon would be pretty amazing on his high volume sword profile. 

Yeah, unfortunately so. I'd also love Flaming Weapon on Glutos's mutants, but alas it's not to be.

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4 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Yeah, I was uncertain.  My understanding is that Be'lakor, as a unique character, is also locked out of the General Spell Lore as it didn't get the "including unique wizards" errata all the book lores got... which is a shame since Flaming Weapon would be pretty amazing on his high volume sword profile. 

I was hoping for an FAQ on this as I feel that the every (their emphasis) contradicts the rule that Unique units don't benefit from enhancements. Then the errata on battletome lores muddied the waters further I think. But we are where we are for now 😕

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8 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

I was hoping for an FAQ on this as I feel that the every (their emphasis) contradicts the rule that Unique units don't benefit from enhancements. Then the errata on battletome lores muddied the waters further I think. But we are where we are for now 😕

Yeah, the battletome errata makes their intent crystal clear - but it doesn't actually fix the underlying issue in the first place, imo, which is that RAW its less about whether they can receive a spell lore enhancement (there's a good argument they can, as you noted, because of the "every" exception) and more about the fact that technically, they can't use them if they do receive them.  

Luckily everyone local agrees on the intent of the book errata, so I'm not running into actual issues. I just hope that someday we do get it all straightened out. 

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1 hour ago, KrispyXIV said:
All the Bel'akor talk makes me want to run something like -
 
Hedonites of Slaanesh - Godseekers Host
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot (General, Sweeping Slash, Flaming Sword, Amulet of Destiny) - 265

Dexcessa - 280

Synessa - 260 
Be'lakor (STD Lore Spell?) - 360
Enrapturess (Cameo of the Dark Prince) - 140
Enrapturess - 140 
Blissbarbs - 180
Blissbarbs - 180
Daemonettes - 140
1945
 
Which is probably too many monsters even in monster meta, and likely too light on bodies.  
 
Also not sure what to spend the remaining 55 points on.  

Sorry, I was going to commend on the rest of your list and then I just... didn't :P

I really like it! I'm not 100% sure how it will do against a variety of lists, but I think it'd be interesting to see. You'll definitely have a lot of range threat to pick off key pieces, the only thing I can see as a struggle is front line damage as only Dex, Belekor, and the chariot can really put the pressure on. However, I reckon you can summon a KoS or fiends easily later on

As for the final 55 points, the maw may be good as @Elazar The Glorified said, or you could try the Cogs for 45 to give Syn a boost. 

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16 minutes ago, Enoby said:

As for the final 55 points, the maw may be good as @Elazar The Glorified said, or you could try the Cogs for 45 to give Syn a boost. 

Are cogs "free" in that the caster also receives an extra spell immediately?  

That would certainly be extremely strong, and is a good option for one of the other casters to drop for synessa to let her use both of her Casts doing her thing...

And I'd be 10 points down for at least the possibility of a triumph. 

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4 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Are cogs "free" in that the caster also receives an extra spell immediately?  

That would certainly be extremely strong, and is a good option for one of the other casters to drop for synessa to let her use both of her Casts doing her thing...

And I'd be 10 points down for at least the possibility of a triumph. 

From what I understand, it activates immediately. So another wizard sets it up and suddenly Syn gets 2 casts. 

pq0sr9mQ1AN2HNL6.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Enoby said:

From what I understand, it activates immediately. So another wizard sets it up and suddenly Syn gets 2 casts. 

pq0sr9mQ1AN2HNL6.jpg

Also feels like the "speed up" option is a real win in Godseekers, as it can push a summoned model to only needing a 7 on the charge on the turn its set up, which can be pretty huge for making sure a summoned exalted bladebringer or KOS is contributing ASAP.

Edited by KrispyXIV
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The cogs has definitely got merit for Synessa on the second cast and the utility for the charge boost option also. 

I'm finding when I don't have the points for our Endless Spells I'm seeing the most value in the Jaws for being a slightly narrower focused Wheels equivalent or the Cogs for boosting casting. My only thing with the Cogs for your list @KrispyXIV would be that only Synessa really benefits from the Slowing Time option as Be'lakor has no use for a third cast (other than if you used him to set up the Cogs perhaps). Maybe worth some playtesting either way to see what feels right with some use

I've got Cogs in my list above too so hopefully Synessa makes good value of it! 😁

 

Edited by Elazar The Glorified
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24 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

The cogs has definitely got merit for Synessa on the second cast and the utility for the charge boost option also. 

I'm finding when I don't have the points for our Endless Spells I'm seeing the most value in the Jaws for being a slightly narrower focused Wheels equivalent or the Cogs for boosting casting. My only thing with the Cogs for your list @KrispyXIV would be that only Synessa really benefits from the Slowing Time option as Be'lakor has no use for a third cast (other than if you used him to set up the Cogs perhaps). Maybe worth some playtesting either way to see what feels right with some use

I've got Cogs in my list above too so hopefully Synessa makes good value of it! 😁

 

The Jaws situation is kindof where Synessa's extreme flexibility comes in though, luckily.  At "approximately" the same general threat range, they can throw out Hysterical frenzy for double the average MW output of Jaws!  

I think the hardest thing about Syn is going to be memorizing the lores they have access to well enough to know when it's more important to do something other than Pavane the opponents "dragon" equivalent from across the board. 

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You're definitely correct around Synessa's flexibility. Using Hysterical Frenzy does means pushing them right up though as your target has to be wholly within which is potentially a bit different from keeping their at max range for avoiding Unbinds or max range of their shooting. The flexibility of the extra cast is balanced against the flexibility of the Jaws being something that Be'lakor can be casting instead. Not sure which is the right option. I didn't have the points to choose for my list so I also hope the Cogs 😂

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Oooo, I got it. Run Syn with the Contorted Epitome to cast Cogs, 2 Infernal Enrapturesses, 2 soul grinders and 3 units of Blissbarbs. What’s the worst that could happen?

 

edit: forgot Grinders are coalition and the limitations. Maybe a second IE and Dread Pagent brings the list to 1980. 

Edited by TimeToWaste85
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