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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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What is the “Hunters” battalion in Tzeentchmike’s list? Also, I’ve seen some of his knowledge on Synessa, and I think she might be worth reconsidering. I always thought Dexcessa was a little underwhelming, but Syn’s utility/MW output seems helpful in our army.

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Alright I have cried, screamed, raged, and swore. But I have returned with my next iteration of my 2000 point list for some test games starting this afternoon. I actually have another list I am interested to try after this one too, and a weird coalition-like thing I am brewing too. But those will come in time. So here is the new list I hope to have some success with:
 

Spoiler

 

Hedonites of Slaanesh
Pretenders Host (Faultless Blades)

Battle Regiment
Commander

Dexcessa 280 Points
Sub-Commander
Shardspeaker of Slaanesh 150 Points
-Levitate or Judgement of Excess [Spell]
Troops
5 Hellstriders with Clawspears 135 Points
5 Hellstriders with Hellscourges 135 Points
5 Myrmidesh Painbringers 160 Points
5 Myrmidesh Painbringers 160 Points

Hunters of the Heartlands
Troops

10 Symbaresh Twinsouls 370 Points
11 Blissbarb Archers 180 Points

No Battalion
Bladebringer, Herlad on Exalted Chariot [General] 265 Points
-Contest of Cruelty [Command Trait]
-Hunter of Godbeasts [Command Trait]
-Contemptuos Brand (Felnsing Whips) [Artefact of Power]
-Flaming Weapon [Spell]

Endless Spells
Dreadful Visage 90 Points
Emerald Lifeswarm 60 Points

Total - 1985 Points
Triumph - Inspired
Total Drops - 4

 

So let's break this one down. First off I have moved off Lurid Haze. Why? Well the Command Ability isn't that important now. I would only really want it for Twinsouls, and I can get it from Mystic Shield in theory if I really wanted it. So we have gone to Pretenders, and trying out the Faultless Blades. They seem interesting, and I have often wanted to play them generally so it should be fun. Ignoring the first two wounds can save a Twinsoul each turn, which might have some play (especially with the Emerald Lifeswarm, more on that below). On top of that I get to use two Core Battalions, the standard for us (if not everyone) Battle Regiment, allowing us to limit drops. This list is 4 drops, but I still feel confident in getting the first turn with 4 drops, so hopefully that pans out. The Bladebringer cannot fit in a Battalion, so can counter deploy against their intended target (again, see below). The new addition of the Hunters of the Heartlands Battalion also allows me to make my Twinsouls immune to monstrous rampages (mostly Roar), and the Blissbarbs are there because well I want to counter deploy them where I need them so I can save them to my last drop for the best chance of that.

The Leader's are pretty self explanatory. Dexcessa has been good to me, and really becomes a must deal with workhouse, and on top of that the mixture of Hero and Monster is really good. Speaking of Hero and Monster being really good, the Bladebringer is there to hunt exactly that. Decked out to deal a TON of wounds to Hero and/or Monsters (and especially if it's both) this is one of most reliable damage units in the game. I also get to use my cool "mortal" Lord conversion on a chariot. So that's a bonus. Lastly is the Shardspeaker. She remains with me in this list, and has a new purpose with the Emerald Lifeswarm. I am really going to double down on making the Twinsouls disgusting, and she is here to facilitate that. I have yet to choose a spell for sure, with both Levitate (haha flying Twinsouls) and Judgement in consideration (DP generation). Basically she is just another moving part of my Twinsouls block. Lastly I have found the Lord of Pain to be boring, and lackluster over and over. He isn't bad per-say, but he doesn't justify his existence. As such future lists will not include him, and as such I will have to take some mix of 3 units of Hellstriders and Blissbarbs to cover my Battleline.

Twinsouls I have made clear, are amazing. I have a new plan to negate the first 2 wounds with them each turn, and bring them back with the Lifeswarm when I can, among other buffs to really make them a pain to deal with.

Painbringers... I hate them. But I also feel like I might still need them. I am doing some weird coalition plans to remove them and fill them with cheaper Beastmen, but that is a future I am not yet in. I will force myself to test them, as I do believe table experience is important, but I really do feel that at 160 Points they're like at least 40 points too many now.

Blissbarbs and Hellstriders are my Battleline. I don't expect much out of them (but to be honest both variants of Hellstriders have impressed me), but they have a role and get me some DP; so I am more than happy to include them in my lists going forward in some mix. I plan to continue my goal of trying to decide which Hellstriders are better, but they might both be equally viable with different targets and goals.

They killed Wheels. Honestly the reduced movement and no free move I should have seen coming, because we had the new baseline spells which were the same, but I am still upset. I (like many) am interested to try the Visage for the fight last effects and see how it goes. It can generate some DP, has some cool effects, but we will see. It is still costly for a lot of "might do something", so it might find itself cut quick enough. But the Emerald Lifeswarm is my new random tech. What if I can heal or (66% chance) regenerate a Twinsoul every turn? Ignoring 2 wounds, bringing one back a turn, and giving them +1 to their save along with their Ward makes this unit very very hard to shift (on paper). Combined with the offensive buffs, I feel this spell, the Shardspeaker and Twinsouls together make a package that might be amazing.

So that is my thoughts going in. I am hopeful there is still something that I can make work, and am confident I have the skills to, but am unsure the army is deserving of my time. If I plan to go hard into events, I may be switching out from Hedonites, but we will see. I am also going to be in an Escalation League for several months with this new edition and Slaanesh and Sylvaneth are both in contention for that, so these test games will hopefully help me make the choice.

Lastly I did not find either Monsters in my last list to be worth it. They both had some cute interactions and were amusing, but as an actual serious choice both weren't up to snuff. I still want some cool actual Slaanesh mortal monsters in the future, but until then I am happy to have Dexcessa be my Monster of choice.

 

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13 minutes ago, mcnuggs said:

What is the “Hunters” battalion in Tzeentchmike’s list? Also, I’ve seen some of his knowledge on Synessa, and I think she might be worth reconsidering. I always thought Dexcessa was a little underwhelming, but Syn’s utility/MW output seems helpful in our army.

2-3 Troops. The troops in the battalion can't be picked as the targets of Monstrous Rampages which is huge with a lot of emphasis on Monsters in the Pitched Battles battlepack in the General's Handbook (where this battalion is found also) 

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As someone who is getting running on painting up a new Hedonites army (compose entirely of 3rd party minis), I'm pretty psyched.  It's a fresh start in a new edition, and while there are challenges ahead the summoning playstyle and high mobility are extremely appealing.

Now that we have everything available, I was hoping to get opinions on the quality of/best way to use certain units/warscrolls. I'm building to models first, so I'm willing to use some stuff that's sub par if needed - but I also have some flexibility due to 3rd party models.  

Mostly, I'm committed in general army structure - but I'd like to understand what I'm getting into and make sure I'm at least running it as well as possible, even if it's not utterly optimal.

Keeper of Secrets - These guys seem pricy. They're definitely an example of something where in another fiction I'd expect more from their warscroll for their cost.  Are they better than they look, and worth paying points for relative to other options?  Or just a good option for spending 12 depravity?

Dexcessa - Everyone seems pretty happy with Dex.  Is she just a solid beatstick that comes bundled with a free CP?   

Synessa - I've seen negativity about her, and it really feels like she's missing a cast based on her description. On the other hand, she showed up in apparently competitive just last page.  Does her staff carry harder than it looks?  I'd really like a reason to run her over an epitome, but its not obvious exactly what she brings for that purpose.

Infernal Enrapturess - I like these ladies, but ultimately they don't seem to hit THAT hard for their cost.  Are they good as Depravity generators, however?  That seems like the most obvious idea - possibly sat by a Fane, sacrificing a wound for rerolls for extra DP as well. 

Seekers - I have a number of good models for these, what makes then theoretically more appealing than Hellstriders for five points more?  They're faster, but hellstriders seem like they're likely "fast enough".  They're also not battleline.  Am I just calling my mounted girls Hellstriders, or are these secretly good if I fill my battleline elsewhere? 

Daemonettes - These seem expensive.  A bit hittier than 'striders, with almost as much theoretical threat range - and with the golden 25mm base size.  Are they a viable alternative to our other battleline options?  Worth summoning a giant blob of them?

Blissbarbs - Split fire to generate DP, or focus to actually remove threats early on?  A minimum unit or two, or is there any use for a blob even with their painful 6+ save?

Sigvald - He's just legitimately amazing, yes?

Endless Spells - Of these, the updated Scary Face seems the best.  Is there any doubt as to whether it's worth its point cost?

I appreciate any input, info or discussion ;)

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I think the value of the Enrapturess is as both a cheap Sub-commander (even though she’s obviously a dom) and forcing the opponent to reroll successful casts in a wide bubble. I tend to agree on the KoS, but I’m hoping to try one with the FnP artifact today, will report back.

Also going to try Synessa as a harassment tool, which is where I hope they shine

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2 hours ago, KrispyXIV said:

Seekers - I have a number of good models for these, what makes then theoretically more appealing than Hellstriders for five points more?  They're faster, but hellstriders seem like they're likely "fast enough".  They're also not battleline.  Am I just calling my mounted girls Hellstriders, or are these secretly good if I fill my battleline elsewhere? 

Seekers have never steered me wrong really. Their speed means they can be into backline archers or support units by turn 2 at the latest (probably turn one in 3.0) and they're deceptively tough despite their 5+ save -- their bravery means that even if your opponent kills 4 of them in a turn they still won't break because of their bravery 10. They could even get D3 models back if you keep the icon bearer on and roll a 1. 

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I do apologise if it seems like I've been a bit negative lately; I'm usually very positive and have been praising our book more than most since its release. The Myrmidesh thing is honestly the most frustrating thing that has happened with all the 3.0 changes so far, because I built 15 of them and in hindsight I really wish I'd made 10 of them into Twinsouls. The one thing that really differentiated them from Twinsouls was the re-roll saves, but a flat +1 is something Twinsouls have easy access to, meaning Twinsouls outperform them in every conceivable metric now (except cost.) There's just no good reason to run Myrmidesh over Twinsouls, and even if you want a 5-strong unit (where Myrmidesh shine) instead of a 10-strong unit (where Twinsouls shine) you're much better off just running Hellstriders instead now. It's just a shame, because Twinsouls were already the better unit, but previously Myrmidesh had a niche with their re-rolling saves; now, what is there to recommend them over Twinsouls? 

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I tried out my Keeper + Twins list against Daughters. Ended up taking the L, but more because Morathi + Blood Stalkers is an amazing combo, even paying more points for it, than that my list performed particularly poorly. I think I just need to throw everything I have at the snakes as early as I can, because they can pretty easily wipe or cripple a unit or two every turn. Unfortunately I went first, so I kinda had to take my swing before I’d have liked to. 

That said, the Keeper did remarkably well, killing a Caldron and taking a Shrine down to 3 wounds even through the Hagg Narr ward. I’m not sure she’s worth 420 points though.

The mirror, sadly, never got to suck people in :/

I wish I’d gotten to see more of what the Twinsouls could do, Morathi raised a spear-based objection to their existence, and 15 damage through both save and ward later, they obliged her by crumbling in on themselves. A very timely Round 3 double turn really put the last nail in the coffin, nothing quite like 80 unanswerable Blood Stalker shots. 

Still, DoK are a tough matchup, and I think the list has more play than I expected. 

On the depravity front, with the low number of units on the field, and the general lethality, I didn’t get to generate enough to have a great effect before my summoners were all summarily removed.

I don’t think I’ll change anything quiteyet, because I think I lost that one more because it was a new army/edition for me than anything else.

Edited by Selpharia
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2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I do apologise if it seems like I've been a bit negative lately; I'm usually very positive and have been praising our book more than most since its release. The Myrmidesh thing is honestly the most frustrating thing that has happened with all the 3.0 changes so far, because I built 15 of them and in hindsight I really wish I'd made 10 of them into Twinsouls. The one thing that really differentiated them from Twinsouls was the re-roll saves, but a flat +1 is something Twinsouls have easy access to, meaning Twinsouls outperform them in every conceivable metric now (except cost.) There's just no good reason to run Myrmidesh over Twinsouls, and even if you want a 5-strong unit (where Myrmidesh shine) instead of a 10-strong unit (where Twinsouls shine) you're much better off just running Hellstriders instead now. It's just a shame, because Twinsouls were already the better unit, but previously Myrmidesh had a niche with their re-rolling saves; now, what is there to recommend them over Twinsouls? 

With the changes, really Myrmidesh should have gained a 5++ to melee saves only. This distinguishes them from both Twinsouls and Chaos Warriors, whose wards only apply to mortal wounds. 

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57 minutes ago, Selpharia said:

On the depravity front, with the low number of units on the field, and the general lethality, I didn’t get to generate enough to have a great effect before my summoners were all summarily removed.

Did you not have the Fane to hand? 

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The Masque is my go-to mobile summoner. She's tiny, she can slip through lines and she's pretty tanky so opponents are hesitant to "waste" shooting on her over other targets. She's also got run & charge on 10" of movement, so you can have her move 16" with a CP if you really need to. 

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I mentioned it before, but here's proof that the writer of our battletomes has leftFB_IMG_1625386086214.jpg.ac02cd5679970d7170d6eafc3fb77cf8.jpg

I don't think he left because of anything to do with our book (and I'm not trying to suggest this is a good/bad thing - it just sounds like normal moving on), but it does mean someone else will be writing out book now. 

It might be worth, once the dust settles, send in some wishlists for Slaanesh rules in the future :)

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Wow really? Jervis Johnson is a GW legend and has been there since forever. He's generally well regarded and knows what he's doing, so I'm sorta surprised he was responsible for the last battletome. I wonder how much input he had on the pointing as opposed to the lore? 

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1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I mentioned it before, but here's proof that the writer of our battletomes has leftFB_IMG_1625386086214.jpg.ac02cd5679970d7170d6eafc3fb77cf8.jpg

I don't think he left because of anything to do with our book (and I'm not trying to suggest this is a good/bad thing - it just sounds like normal moving on), but it does mean someone else will be writing out book now. 

It might be worth, once the dust settles, send in some wishlists for Slaanesh rules in the future :)

How is it a proof of him leaving? Isn't it just elaborate thank you?

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1 hour ago, Gorsnik said:

How is it a proof of him leaving? Isn't it just elaborate thank you?

Hmmm, I will double check the source but I'm sure it was mentioned elsewhere too that he was leaving, and that this note is a goodbye to him. Will double check - thanks for pointing out :) 

Edit: Upon checking, one of the playtesters said they were pretty sure he was leaving this summer

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6 hours ago, Selpharia said:

 nothing quite like 80 unanswerable Blood Stalker shots. 

Hopefully its now 'nothing like 60 unanswerable Blood Stalker shots', as the maximum unit size for them is now 15.

Or was your opponent really running more than 15 in a second unit, even with the price hike?

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1 hour ago, KrispyXIV said:

Hopefully its now 'nothing like 60 unanswerable Blood Stalker shots', as the maximum unit size for them is now 15.

Or was your opponent really running more than 15 in a second unit, even with the price hike?

They have two shots apiece and can double-tap on each turn because Morathi is there for Worship Through Bloodshed. So 10 stalkers shoot 20 shots in the hero phase of the bottom of T2, 20 shots in bottom T2 shooting phase, then 20 shots in the top of T3 hero phase, and 20 more in the shooting phase of T3.

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8 minutes ago, Selpharia said:

They have two shots apiece and can double-tap on each turn because Morathi is there for Worship Through Bloodshed. So 10 stalkers shoot 20 shots in the hero phase of the bottom of T2, 20 shots in bottom T2 shooting phase, then 20 shots in the top of T3 hero phase, and 20 more in the shooting phase of T3.

Ah... well, that at least is better than the old status quo where it could have been 80 shots in one turn with 20 of then double tapping in one turn. 

Still, as you noted, extremely powerful even after nerfs. 

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Upon looking at our options I've been considering a big block of chaos warriors as a massive unshiftable anvil. Since they don't count for minimum battleline, but don't lose their battleline role we can still reinforce them twice. It's 600 points for 60 wounds on a 3+ save with a 5+ mw ward. Combining mystic shield with the CA and potentially oracular visions you can get them to a point where they're ignoring up to -3 rend. With lurid haze we can dump them into the opponent's backyard turn 1 to act as a huge unkillable problem that needs ~162 successful wounds or 90 mortal wounds to get rid of. Include them in a hunters battalion to keep rampages from stopping their use of CA's and they become even more oppressive. Fill your battleline with hellstriders to take care of the busywork of capping objectives and something like twinsouls and Dexcessa to carve up flanks and we have great board presence, even before daemonettes and keepers start hitting the table. 

I have enough chaos warriors to field two of these potentially, which I might test out in the near future. It's a huge point investment, but I don't see many easy counters to it.

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6 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

Upon looking at our options I've been considering a big block of chaos warriors as a massive unshiftable anvil. Since they don't count for minimum battleline, but don't lose their battleline role we can still reinforce them twice. It's 600 points for 60 wounds on a 3+ save with a 5+ mw ward. Combining mystic shield with the CA and potentially oracular visions you can get them to a point where they're ignoring up to -3 rend. With lurid haze we can dump them into the opponent's backyard turn 1 to act as a huge unkillable problem that needs ~162 successful wounds or 90 mortal wounds to get rid of. Include them in a hunters battalion to keep rampages from stopping their use of CA's and they become even more oppressive. Fill your battleline with hellstriders to take care of the busywork of capping objectives and something like twinsouls and Dexcessa to carve up flanks and we have great board presence, even before daemonettes and keepers start hitting the table. 

I have enough chaos warriors to field two of these potentially, which I might test out in the near future. It's a huge point investment, but I don't see many easy counters to it.

Archaon 

Chaos sorcerer lord

hellstriders

hellstriders

blissbarbs

30 CW

1995 points 

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I do like the idea of just plopping 20-30 Chaos Warriors down and forcing opponents to deal with them, ideally you'll either be ambushing them to hold the opponent in place or contesting a central objective. I wonder if 20 is enough so you can spend 200 points elsewhere, or if going the full 30 route is better. I guess it depends on what you want to complement them with. 

I'm also not surprised that good players have been finding success with Synessa; as much as her being a one-cast wizard with no bonuses stymies her effective casting potential (the player mentioned earlier even notes being lucky in successfully casting Slothful Stupor twice) and her infinite range command ability rule is on the gimmicky side (the best application I've seen so far is to let a Keeper use Excess of Violence on another unit and still receive +1 save/hit/etc from Synessa, or to use commands on a unit that has had its champion sniped out) it can't be denied that she's an absolute toolbox unit with access to 15 different spells, a potent ranged attack, good defensive stats, and she is unique in that she's both a sub-commander and a monster (which really helps fill out the Warlord/Command battalions.)

She's just a nice utility unit that's got pretty strong hero-sniping potential between her Staff and the infinite range Pavane (between the two of them, you should fairly reliably snipe your average 5-wound hero - or you can spread the love in a single turn for Depravity generation.) Her and Dexcessa ultimately do play very differently while both having a role, with Dexcessa being our strongest combat character per-point assuming she manages to make it into combat in the first battle round (which should be extremely easy in 90% of all matchups and scenarios.) I prefer Dexcessa for the most part in my lists because I prefer the more aggressive target saturation style of play and get heaps of value out of her effective two free commands per round in Lurid Haze lists, but I have been considering running both more than before since Glutos received that massive points hike. I just really wish Synessa had an auto-cast at a value of 10 (she'd need a points hike though as it would be super strong in tandem with spells like Slothful Stupor) or more preferably either an extra cast or an inherent +1 to cast - and maybe some kind of alteration to her infinite-range command ability rule, as her 'Voice' rule just feels super underwhelming and really colours my view of her value. 

I hate to beat a dead horse as I've talked about it at length, but the more I think about him, the more I really think One-Eyed Grunnock might be a hidden gem this edition. We don't care much about losing 1 CP in our first hero phase - especially in an Invaders list - and having multiple ways to easily give him +1 to-hit and +1 save is terrifying for almost any opponent, though using him does preclude you from including Be'lakor (who is our other top ally choice.) Be'lakor and 110 points of spare change is almost certainly the better use of points overall, but there's something to be said for a 470 point 3+ save titan with 35 wounds that will absolutely demolish near anything it touches - especially now that it counts as 5 models for contesting objectives. 

Edited by Jaskier
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sry Guys but, did u see the FAQ ?

Mean the new "Coalation"-Rule we can include Soulgrinder, CW or Soulgrinder in the Hedonit Army AND they get the Keyword for lets say "Exploding 6er" or a Sorcerer a Spell from the Lore..... and thinks like this ?!?!

 

If the Answer is jes: Can Marauder or CW be Batteline in this way ?!

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5 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Upon looking at our options I've been considering a big block of chaos warriors as a massive unshiftable anvil. Since they don't count for minimum battleline, but don't lose their battleline role we can still reinforce them twice. It's 600 points for 60 wounds on a 3+ save with a 5+ mw ward. Combining mystic shield with the CA and potentially oracular visions you can get them to a point where they're ignoring up to -3 rend. With lurid haze we can dump them into the opponent's backyard turn 1 to act as a huge unkillable problem that needs ~162 successful wounds or 90 mortal wounds to get rid of. Include them in a hunters battalion to keep rampages from stopping their use of CA's and they become even more oppressive. Fill your battleline with hellstriders to take care of the busywork of capping objectives and something like twinsouls and Dexcessa to carve up flanks and we have great board presence, even before daemonettes and keepers start hitting the table. 

I have enough chaos warriors to field two of these potentially, which I might test out in the near future. It's a huge point investment, but I don't see many easy counters to it.

Someone on the S2D thread said this about their experience with new warriors:

"I played two games with a stack of 20 warriors yesterday, the loss of rerolls has ruined there survivability for sure. I usually kept the warriors on the table the entire game previously. I lost them all both games by turn 3. So they are literally useless now cause they still hit like wet noodles.

With things now having easy access to +2 saves there lack of sharp weaponry is just depressing. I sent 48 attacks 3s and 2s at a stone horn yesterday and did 2 damage"

So by the sound of it, warriors aren't too hot. Of course, you could try them and could get some better luck :) However, from previous experience with chaos warriors there's a good chance they'll tank a few rounds of combat, getting chipped off bit by bit, and then do nothing in return acting like a glorified screen :(

It's a bit like the Glutos "problem" but elevated. In big chunks they cost a lot of points (we'll go with 400 for 20), but have little active play due to low damage and their main purpose being to absorb hits. However, unlike Glutos they can't cast, don't provide a -1 to hit, don't provide some battleshock bonuses, don't do as much damage, and don't actually tank as well (assuming a 2+ save and his 5+ ward on Glutos). The only thing they have going for them is more models on objectives.

Without buffs, 20 chaos warriors with Halberds (each one getting in) do a rather measly 6.5 damage against a 4+ save. Considering 3+ saves are much more common, they're doing about 4.5, which isn't even killing a 5 wound hero who wants to live. 

If someone has better luck with them, great! I actually hope I'm wrong about them because I really like warriors, but every time I've tried them (for anything but cheap battleline) and from most battle reports I've read/watched, they've sat about twiddling their thumbs awaiting death. 

1 hour ago, ibel said:

sry Guys but, did u see the FAQ ?

Mean the new "Coalation"-Rule we can include Soulgrinder, CW or Soulgrinder in the Hedonit Army AND they get the Keyword for lets say "Exploding 6er" or a Sorcerer a Spell from the Lore..... and thinks like this ?!?!

 

If the Answer is jes: Can Marauder or CW be Batteline in this way ?!

The new FAQ doesn't, to my knowledge, give them the Hedonite keyword so they don't benefit from exploding 6s. I think what it means by "benefit from allegiance abilities" is things like our host abilities, or anything that affects Slaanesh in general. 

And in GHB 2021, neither can be battleline as they're coalition. This may change in GHB 2022 as the core rules don't prevent it, but they can't currently be.

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