AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[CeleFAZE]

44 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Looks like warscroll builder is gone from community site

It's still there, it looks like they redid the formatting so the headings you use to get to it aren't showing up on the mobile version.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

[Enoby]

Now, just to check, do our units actually have "Champions" - they have upgrades (e.g. Painmaster) but they're not titled "Champion" in the same way Blood Knights are. 

I'm 99% sure this is just a 3e wording change to be addressed in the FAQ, but it's worth keeping an eye on. If we do lose unit champions, then maybe Synessa does have a use...

[Nagashfan]

3 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

It's still there, it looks like they redid the formatting so the headings you use to get to it aren't showing up on the mobile version.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

Yup it’s back! Hopefully it stays free!

[Carnith]

13 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Since I'm a big fan of the wholesome Slaaneshi power-couple, I'll do one:

Symbiotic Host

Ability:

The Prime Example: Syll'Esske counts as a general in addition to the chosen general for a Symbiotic Host Army, and gain the MORTAL keyword.

Inseperably Bonded: Symbaresh Twinsouls are battleline in a Symbiotic Host Army, and gain the Daemon keyword. In addition when using the Fractured Souls ability for Symbaresh Twinsouls units in the army you may select either option, regardless of which was used in the previous turn.

Glorious Unity: At the end of the battleshock phase you gain 1 depravity point if at least one Slaanesh mortal unit and one Slaanesh daemon unit were selected to fight in the preceding combat phase (these must be two separate units). If your general was one of these units gain d3 depravity points instead.

Command Trait:

Fight as One: If your general is a SLAANESH MORTAL, when you select them to pile in and fight in the combat phase you may select a SLAANESH DAEMON unit within 12" to pile in and attack immediately after your general's attacks are resolved. If your general is a SLAANESH DAEMON you may instead pick a SLAANESH MORTAL unit within 12". This counts as the first time the selected unit has fought in the combat phase, and they cannot be selected to fight again unless an ability allows them to fight a second time.

Artifact:

Token of The Covenant: SLAANESH MORTAL HEROES only. When you summon a SLAANESH DAEMON unit with the feast of depravities ability you may set up the unit wholly within 18" of the bearer, more than 9" from enemy models.

Command Ability:

Vengeful Retribution: This command ability may be issued in the combat phase when a friendly SLAANESH unit is selected as the target of an attack, that unit receives the command. When a model in this unit is slain, roll a dice: on a 4+ that model may pile in and attack with all its melee weapons before being removed from play.

I'm not sure if I'd come up with a unique set of artifacts for the host, or if they would pick from one of the existing host lists. Flavor-wise Invaders artifacts would make sense.

I love it! my initialy thoughts on a revamped Syll'esske host was definitely twinsouls based. 

 

[Carnith]

The new coalition rules allow you to take units from Slaves to Darkness with the Mark of Khorne, and one in every four units can be from the Beasts of Chaos faction. These gain the Khorne keyword, meaning Beasts of Chaos can be easily added to a Blades of Khorne army and can even have Artefacts of Power. 

A unit of Bullgors or a Chimera will bolster your army, and because they gain the Khorne keyword, they’ll benefit from most of your abilities.

So BoC can be in god armies again? This is from the Khorne article. 

[Feorag]

That's what it sounds like, cockatrice in slaanesh would be awesome for dp generation.....

[TimeToWaste85]

29 minutes ago, Feorag said:

That's what it sounds like, cockatrice in slaanesh would be awesome for dp generation.....

I mean, it’s 100pts for a 50/50 on 1-6MW…I feel like there are better options out there. But hey, give it a shot and see what happens for sure!!

[Feorag]

6 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

I mean, it’s 100pts for a 50/50 on 1-6MW…I feel like there are better options out there. But hey, give it a shot and see what happens for sure!!

It's also a cheap fast monster, great on the charge and to go smash terrain! 

Pretenders may be good with giving rerolls to hit with units above 10

 

 

[Jaskier]

7 hours ago, Feorag said:

That's what it sounds like, cockatrice in slaanesh would be awesome for dp generation.....

I think Ungor Raiders are where it's at. 90 points for 10 bodies that have a pre-game move and can run and shoot with 1 shot each at 4+ 4+. You can run Hellstriders in place of Blissbarbs to fill out your Battleline with fast cavalry blockers and still get ranged DP generation through a unit or two of these guys. They fill the same role that Untamed Beasts do at a slightly higher cost but better and without being Allies (which is an important consideration given how good options like Be'lakor and Grunnock are now.) 

Bestigors look like a good alternative to our melee infantry as less beefy but heavier hitters that can run and charge, though being on 32mms with the new coherency rules and only a 1" reach means they'll struggle to get all their attacks in (in a 10-strong it's not so bad; go 6 wide at the front and 4 behind in 'triangles', it's how 32mms with 1" get to fight in two ranks - the problem is more noticeable at 20.) Gors offer super cheap bodies rocking a 4+ save in combat, they might not be Battleline but it is something to consider. 

There's some other interesting stuff there for sure (like the Shaggoth, who is a sub 200 point monster wizard hero.) Not being tied to battalions anymore is great for someone like me who'd want to run partial rather than majority Beasts in a Slaanesh army, though obviously players who did the opposite are in a tough spot now. 

Come to think of it, I've had a bunch of lists written up where I needed a second sub-Leader but could only afford the nigh useless Exalted Hero - with this news, Bray Shamans solve that particular issue! I'll never complain about cheap Wizards. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Jaskier

[Nagashfan]

44 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I think Ungor Raiders are where it's at. 90 points for 10 bodies that have a pre-game move and can run and shoot with 1 shot each at 4+ 4+. You can run Hellstriders in place of Blissbarbs to fill out your Battleline with fast cavalry blockers and still get ranged DP generation through a unit or two of these guys. They fill the same role that Untamed Beasts do at a slightly higher cost but better and without being Allies (which is an important consideration given how good options like Be'lakor and Grunnock are now.) 

Bestigors look like a good alternative to our melee infantry as less beefy but heavier hitters that can run and charge, though being on 32mms with the new coherency rules and only a 1" reach means they'll struggle to get all their attacks in (in a 10-strong it's not so bad; go 6 wide at the front and 4 behind in 'triangles', it's how 32mms with 1" get to fight in two ranks - the problem is more noticeable at 20.) Gors offer super cheap bodies rocking a 4+ save in combat, they might not be Battleline but it is something to consider. 

There's some other interesting stuff there for sure (like the Shaggoth, who is a sub 200 point monster wizard hero.) Not being tied to battalions anymore is great for someone like me who'd want to run partial rather than majority Beasts in a Slaanesh army, though obviously players who did the opposite are in a tough spot now. 

Come to think of it, I've had a bunch of lists written up where I needed a second sub-Leader but could only afford the nigh useless Exalted Hero - with this news, Bray Shamans solve that particular issue! I'll never complain about cheap Wizards. 

I’m very happy beasts are back! Can’t wait to play around with some lists!!

[Jaskier]

The big question I have with the coalition rules is if Slaves use the same 1 in every 4 rule that Beasts do. It seems like it isn't the case as it hasn't been mentioned in the multiple times Slaves have been highlighted; it's only been brought up with regards to Beasts. I sure hope that's the case, but hopefully we've only got less than a week until the FAQs drop to know for sure. 

[Feorag]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

The big question I have with the coalition rules is if Slaves use the same 1 in every 4 rule that Beasts do. It seems like it isn't the case as it hasn't been mentioned in the multiple times Slaves have been highlighted; it's only been brought up with regards to Beasts. I sure hope that's the case, but hopefully we've only got less than a week until the FAQs drop to know for sure. 

Just a theory with the 1 in 4 for beasts, but it's must likely due to the fact they can't actually get marks naturally like S2D and used to have to use a battalion. 

A shaman with devolve is a damn nice addition too being able to drag people off objectives and help debate a redeploy is really useful! 

[Elazar The Glorified]

Overjoyed that some of my Beasts can come out into partial retirement at least and get back into my Slaanesh lists.

Not sure the Ungor Raiders replace the Blissbarbs as even 2 units can't match their shooting output by the time you account for the High Tempter, Rend and Homonculus but their pregame move etc definitely makes them effective screens but I'm not managing to get that much into my lists and I'm not sure Ungor Raiders are where I'd want to spend those points (plus the cost of the 6 other units to get 2 Ungor Raiders into the list) however they have little pot-bellies and that's worth something! 😂

A Shaman, Doombull, Ghorgons, Cygors and Bestigors are probably higher on my list to try squeezing into some lists (not all together obviously!)

The big cows gaining ambush through Lurid Haze could be fun - was always the one appeal with Darkwalkers - especially now Monsters have some additional use for stomping scenery etc - it's always the psychological impact on your opponent for knowing they're coming - worth trying a Battle Regiment for to guarantee they're taking first turn and caught in two minds when you want them to. 

[Jaskier]

The value of cheap screens that can shoot is extraordinarily high for Slaanesh, and you get double the bodies if you go the Ungor Raider route. I'd much rather sacrifice/lose a 90 point unit than a 180 point unit, and splitting the units apart means you won't lose your ranged DP generation so quickly. The pre-game move is the cherry on top. A slight bit of extra damage isn't as important I feel, especially as the point is chip damage for DP. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

Just now, Jaskier said:

The value of cheap screens that can shoot is extraordinarily high for Slaanesh, and you get double the bodies if you go the Ungor Raider route. I'd much rather sacrifice/lose a 90 point unit than a 180 point unit, and splitting the units apart means you won't lose your ranged DP generation so quickly. The pre-game move is the cherry on top. 

I think there are pros and cons of both - Ungor raiders, as you said, have the screening advantage and can generate depravity slightly more easily in that they can more knowingly split their attacks (as in, you know how much one unit has done after it's fired so you can make an informed decision about the other unit). Blissbarbs on the other hand count as battleline (which if you want to use ranged units in the long run can save you points as you don't need to spend 135 on Hellstriders for tax) and can actually do some meaningful damage with +1 to hit and rerolling 1s. 

I think it comes down to whether you had a different plan for battleline or whether you wanted blissbarbs anyway. If you're running a twinsoul/painbringer list then there's a good chance your BL will be sorted and in this case I think the ungors are your best screens. If you were running a monster mash list and wanted your ranged support and battleline in one place, then blissbarbs are a good answer. Also, if you did want a big ranged deathstar then 30 Blissbarbs (while expensive) are a better option as they can be reinforced twice and have better stats to buff.

Which is the best way it could be, imo - there's not a definitive right answer, just different ways to use each unit which can put one over the other. 

---

On Bestigors, with a shaman, they're much faster than our foot troops, but their damage in 10s (assuming all 10 get in, which is much harder with coherency):

5 twinsouls rr hits: 13 dmg vs 4+ save

10 bestigors charging against 10+ models: 9 dmg vs 4+ save

10 bestigors without any buffs: 4.5 dmg vs a 4+ save

10 bestigors just charging: 7 dmg vs 4+ save

If you can only get 5 models in due to coherency:

5 bestigors charging against 10+ models: 5 dmg vs 4+ save

5 bestigors without any buffs: 4.5 dmg vs a 4+ save

5 bestigors just charging: 2.5 dmg vs 4+ save

In ideal situations (with all 10 getting in) they do 4 less damage than twinsouls, and in a worst case scenario they do 9 damage less. 

In comparison, Painbringers do about 5.5 on average (so better than worst case scenario bestigors, though much easier for all to get in) and they tank much better with their rerolling saves (especially with a 3+ rerolling) and you don't really take them for damage. 

It should also be mentioned that both Painbringers and Twinsouls can be battleline.

At 135 points, Bestigors are cheaper (and understandably so). They're also faster (esp if you pay a bit extra for a shaman) but they won't be turning heads with their damage. I don't think they'll substitute Painbringers or Twinsouls - their tankiness doesn't compare to the former and their damage doesn't compare to the latter.

However, I do think they could be a great screenbreaker - very fast, pretty cheap, and not ridiculously easy to kill. If your opponent is screening, having 300-400 points of bestigors and a shaman (depending on the rest of your army) to run up first turn and break through screens or tie up their army or act as a large screen right up on their field (so they can't even move up much before charging). 

---

On a more personal note, I'm very happy I can use my BoC outside of allies again!

[Jaskier]

Yeah that's pretty accurate to how I feel, and it again shows why Blissbarbs can't get too big of a price cut or else they'll be too pushed, regardless of how expensive they look next to other armies' ranged units. The lists I'm writing up tend to revolve around three big models (i.e. Glutos/Grunnock/Dexcessa) so getting cheap bodies in actually works out better than saving points by only running Battleline, as that particular list works best with the more targets and bodies it presents to block enemies getting onto the objectives. I personally would never bother with a 33-strong Blissbarb unit though, as they're just way too expensive for how fragile they are and will absolutely melt to anything that touches them - and opponents will focus them. 540 points for 33 6+ save wounds is atrocious.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Jaskier

[azdimy]

On 6/30/2021 at 5:40 AM, Enoby said:

Now, just to check, do our units actually have "Champions" - they have upgrades (e.g. Painmaster) but they're not titled "Champion" in the same way Blood Knights are. 

I'm 99% sure this is just a 3e wording change to be addressed in the FAQ, but it's worth keeping an eye on. If we do lose unit champions, then maybe Synessa does have a use...

Since it makes us a winner in this edition according to todays warhammer community article. It s safe to say they are all champions which does make Synessa ability a corner case

[Jaskier]

Synessa's warscroll is just badly designed in general, because her defining unique abilities are either extremely limited in potential applications or just near worthless. She's not a terrible use of 260 points - in fact, I think she's actually quite decent - but she just doesn't really do what she's clearly intended to do. The fact her command ability thing has so few real uses is a testament to this.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Jaskier

[Elazar The Glorified]

Played a game last night against Blades of Khorne. Went for pretty much the Invaders list I posted the other day.

Battle Regiment

Shardspeaker - General (Master of Magic), Rod of Misrule, Levitate

Syll’esske - General, Flaming Weapon

Glutos - Judgement of Excess

11 Blissbarb Archers

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears

5 Hellstriders w/ Claw-spears

6 Fiends 

The Dread Pageant

Endless Spells

Wheels of Excruciation

The Mesmerising Mirror

Grand Strategy

Prized Sorcery

 

My opponent's list I'm not 100% sure on how he had structured it and prayers etc but was mortal heavy Goretide and roughly:

 

Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut - General (Hew the Foe), Thronebreakers Torc

Bloodsecrator

Slaughterpriest 

Slaughterpriest

10 Blood Warriors

10 Bloodreavers

10 Bloodreavers

10 Bloodreavers

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

6 Mighty Skullcrushers

5 Wrathmongers

Khorgorath

Khorgorath

Bleeding Icon

Wrath-Axe

Grand Strategy - Pillars of Belief

 

I'll not do a full report but the Battle Tactics and Grand Strategies certainly add a bit more to the games now I've had a chance to use those also. The game was called in favour of Slaanesh at the top of Turn 3 when I won the priority roll and my 10-6 lead would have been extended too far for the Khorne player to catch back up as I still had the bulk of my numbers with Depravity in the bank to add to them and the Blood Tithe wouldn't have been able to keep up with the attrition. I also was still on course to achieve my Grand Strategy whereas the Khorne one was looking increasingly precarious.

 

Syll'Esske was pretty much as you warned me @Enoby. Didn't do anything wrong but just didn’t quite add enough of anything to make me think I needed them in the list. They dealt with what they needed to but when I wanted them to tip a combat between the Fiends and Lord of Khorne and Skullcrushers, they just didn't quite have the clout. If they could cast twice or had a ward save to tank a bit more or hit a little harder (and they set their Scourge on fire every turn and it still didn't feel quite enough) they'd be amazing but instead they're just a bit Jack-of-all-trades. Probably awesome in smaller games though! I think I'd be considering shuffling points around to get either a Contorted Epitome for magic or Dexcessa for hitting stuff if I ran the list again.

 

The Shardspeaker did well as Mesmerising Mirror is always my favourite thing to throw at Priest heavy Khorne because they tend to all be gathered around the altar in a lovely bubble for spreading mortal wounds! With the Bloodsecrator on the board and so many Unbind and Dispels though I didn't get as much value from magic overall and she didn't do much else other than survive… which was in keeping with my Grand Strategy! Found them not that useful without some Twinsouls etc to support but if looking for them in that role would try a similar setup again. 

 

Endless Spells are still awesome for Depravity though. I think the two and The Dread Pageant are probably the first things on my list at the moment as they're all great little tools for playing the Tactics and Depravity game. 

 

The Dread Pageant were once again one of my best performers. The Mortal Wound output coupled with their tankiness in Vasillac and just being too small a unit to justify committing too much to means they're flying under the radar of all of my opponent's so far. They clear out screening MSU units, they chip away with shooting for Depravity and they tip the balance on key objectives. Love them!

 

Rod of Misrule… I only rolled 1s. That's obviously no reflection on the artefact but so far in my game's in 3rd I've not had all the extra CP through either through not having the Rod or not getting any joy from it. I'm feeling a bit liberated from the theory of it and Invaders as a result! Invaders are still great for getting Battleline Painbringers and Twinsouls without having to waste the 'real' generalship on a Lord of Pain but I'm finding other stuff working well enough so far that I feel comfortable for the next game going for Pretenders or Godseekers and not ruing the CP I could have had!

 

Glutos. Tanker gonna tank. Pick a spot and hold it. Nothing new I can really say about him. Got less from his magic today but got more from his attacks against squishy Khornate Mortals. 2+ save on him from either All Out Defence or Mystic Shield is invaluable. 

 

Fiends. The other anvil for my army. Would have preferred they'd been killier but they did what I wanted them to in this game which was tie up all of his cavalry for the duration. Needed a summoned Keeper to tip things into winning that combat though.

 

Blissbarbs and Hellstriders for Battleline, continuing to serve me well. Not expecting much of any of them which maybe isn't the best seal kf approval but keeping them out of the press as much as possible and just focusing on the speed of the Hellstriders for nabbing objectives and the weight of shots on the Blissbarbs to farm depravity that bit quicker. 

 

Next list is definitely having some Beasts of Chaos in!

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Elazar The Glorified

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Synessa's warscroll is just badly designed in general, because her defining unique abilities are either extremely limited in potential applications or just near worthless. She's not a terrible use of 260 points - in fact, I think she's actually quite decent - but she just doesn't really do what she's clearly intended to do. The fact her command ability thing has so few real uses is a testament to this.

I really have a feeling that Synessa's warscroll was written alongside AoS 3, and during this time unit champs couldn't use CAs. At this point their ability would have been super useful. But then the warscroll was made and AoS 3's rules changed, leaving Syn behind.

Probably worth mentioning in any emails to GW. 

[Enoby]

11 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

*snip*

 

Thanks for the write up! Glad things went well for you

Good to know Glutos remains tanky. I reckon Syll'Esske would also feel better if everything was cheaper. They're fine for their cost, but I think everything in a Slaanesh list needs to have a role, and their role of "Battleshock bubble" is good, but its usefulness scales with our army, so if we have loads of mortals then it's great, but if we only have a few ones with high bravery then they're not adding loads else. They're on my "watch list" for later

---

I'm playing against Tzeentch tonight using a kind of slow Slaanesh army - no clue how it'll go, but I'm looking forward to finding out!

[docofallplagues]

OK because my brain struggles with big blocks of text, can someone tell me what in the new rules says you cannot get both extra hits AND mortal wounds on a six to hit? The FEC board mentioned that gristlegore terrorgheists no longer deal 6 mortal wounds as well as get a hit with the gaping maw rule. Just wondering if there's any interactions with euphoric killers.

Edited July 2, 2021 by docofallplagues

[Benkei]

You can only resolve one triggered effect now, the player who has the turn decides which one.

[CeleFAZE]

15 minutes ago, Benkei said:

You can only resolve one triggered effect now, the player who has the turn decides which one.

Per 1.6.4 in the base rules it's the player who made the roll that picks, which is an important distinction.

[docofallplagues]

6 hours ago, Benkei said:

You can only resolve one triggered effect now, the player who has the turn decides which one.

I guess that means slaanesh with its army wide euphoric killers and mostly bonuses from 6's to wound remain pretty unaffected by that then