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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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Ye summoning as focus is odd when that feels like Tzeenches gimick to create the never ending horde while big wizards sit at back.

For me the gods gameplay should be

Tzeench

-summoning, low melee damage output, poor defence but wins through using numbers to hold enemy still while wizards do the actual damage. A board control magic army doing it through cycling bodies through summoning, if you break through and kill the wizards they are dead.

Nurgle

-Slow, extremely durable, can go zombie wide or elite with big tanky dudes. Focus should be on attrition, minimal summoning just to keep ranks up, magic should be either damage other time or slow heals, board control melee army doing so through hard to kill units. Reliant more on troops than heroes,

Khorne

-Aggressive and tanky, very much a bruiser army that just wants to get stuck in. High natural armour saves, rewarded for any deaths on battlefield. No gimicks or magic, high raw stats on units.Focus on blocks of units doing most of the damage (quality of skulls dont matter over the amount of them) carnage ensues as summoning pushes them further (I actually think slaaneshes current tempo is more khorne fitting). So melee heavy army with middling speed, units are the focus of damage with a few heroes.

Slaanesh

-Finesse and speed, great stats to hit, middling to wound and decent to no armour. Should be about control through movement and debuffs. Heavier focus on heroes and elite units, Combined arms focusing on only taking the fights it wants to. Summoning minimal but specific to needs at the time vs block unit spamming. Doesnt want to delete units but do just enough to hurt and cripple them. Better Magic than Nurgle, but more focused on debuffs than healing.

 

Honestly to me Tzeench and Khorne feel more fitting to be more summoning heavy

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Thanks to those who pointed out the first turn thing, this is what I get for going off a friends' account of a video 😅 Checked it myself and yep, wording is clear as day. 5 drop lists with Warlord and Core Battalion will be what I build for now, and given how high our points are I think 5 drops should be comparatively low next to almost every other faction, especially as I'm sure most players will be wanting those extra enhancements or utilising the other battalions. I'm sick of being made to go first! 

Warning; rambling thoughts ahead!

While I see the merits of a heavy MSU-attrition list for Depravity, I'm approaching my lists with a mantra of forcing mistakes through target priority, being a list built around three or more big scary units that the opponent needs to deal with, forcing them down the target priority rabbit hole - it's the same kind of logic I use for Tyranids in 40k. Dexcessa is a must for this as she's a relatively cheap beatstick who is incredibly self sufficient and works best by charging up a flank into chaff and forcing the opponent to either commit resources to deal with her - in which case she gives herself +1 save for free thanks to her free CP usage each turn - or they leave her alone to focus their attention elsewhere and allow her to power up to a truly terrifying monster. The other main options I've identified so far from an Invaders/Lurid Haze lens are Archaon, Glutos, a Keeper with either permanent +1 to-hit or a 5++, Be'lakor (in conjunction with anything that reduces Bravery to stack healing on him), a block of 10 Twinsouls, Sigvald and One-Eyed Grunnock. These are all units that are mobile, tough and hit hard, with some being more buff reliant than others; many of them either can't be buffed directly (such as Be'lakor) or don't need them (like the +1 to-hit Keeper.) The nice thing here is that a lot of our buffs are universal; (Overwhelming) Acquiescence gives re-rolls 1s for all attacks made against the target, so even allied units get the benefit.

What limits this approach a bit is having to fit two sub-commanders in to unlock the extra artifact (critical for Lurid Haze, not so much for Invaders) through the Warlord core battalion. I think the Rod of Misrule is inarguably the strongest artifact we can take, especially with the slew of new command abilities we can really take advantage of. Unfortunately, Lurid Haze lists are forced to take another artifact first - one that's best tossed into the Fane to permanently power up the wielder (good choices are a Keeper and Bladebringer, or if you need sub-commanders, a Lord on Karkadrak.) In my view, this pretty much forces you to take the Warlord battalion in a Lurid Haze list, with the possible exception of a list that includes one or both of Archaon (free CP generated in your turn) and Dexcessa (free command in each turn.) Conversely, an Invaders list has no such trouble, and thus has no need to build into the Warlord battalion - I'd say the best reason to for Invaders is to give a Keeper the 5++ which goes some way to justifying that exorbitant price tag. 

I keep going back and forth on Lurid Haze versus Invaders, with the necessity of needing two sub commanders (which might not fit the list) in Lurid Haze for Warlord being the biggest sticking point. Having access to an additional +1 save command ability for the combat phase is great, as are the redeployment mind games you can use with the ambush ability, so I still think Lurid Haze is worth building into if you have the CP and the units to take advantage of it. As mentioned earlier, Archaon lists and/or lists with Dexcessa love it; you want multiple big scaries to really make the most of the extra +1 save. Sigvald and Marauders are the obvious ambush choices, but if you view the ambush as just a redeploy, it's good for most units - even just to quickly get them into a good position, or protect them from an alpha strike. 

With all that in mind, I've come to one conclusion; writing lists is so much harder right now than it used to be. Our exorbitant points certainly don't help, but it's tough to think about where points should be spent, if herohammer is the way, how much "meat" to pack into the list, etc. The other question I keep asking myself is if I really need a Sorcerer Lord for Archaon...and seeing as he's a cheap sub-commander, I'm still leaning towards "absolutely" :D

The worst part of list building right now is trying to pack in the 'meat' of the army. Slickblades are in a tough spot where they aren't terrible but they would have been just fine at their old cost, and now Hellstriders are legitimate competition that fill Battleline slots. With how powerful our heroes are now, it's a struggle to fit more than just the minimum Battleline without feeling like I'm investing in the wrong area. Like a block of Twinsouls is great, but could those points be better spent elsewhere?

The last thought I've got is how stupidly good monstrous rampages and Unleash Hell are for us. End of each charge phase, on a 2+ a unit within 3" of a monster takes D3 mortal wounds. 'Ok cool' you might think...but how many combats have you experienced where your monster dies before it gets to land a blow? That's a Depravity point we wouldn't have otherwise received - and the same is true if you charge and kill an enemy monster in one go; we'll happily eat the D3 mortal wounds for another Depravity point. The same logic applies to Unleash Hell; it gives us Depravity we would not have gotten before. It makes one of a unit of Blissbarbs, an Enrapturess or even Synessa near mandatory - especially as ranged Depravity generation is already critical. New Arcane Bolt too; save it for a charging enemy and zap them. 

Edited by Jaskier
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1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

Thanks to those who pointed out the first turn thing, this is what I get for going off a friends' account of a video 😅 Checked it myself and yep, wording is clear as day. 5 drop lists with Warlord and Core Battalion will be what I build for now, and given how high our points are I think 5 drops should be comparatively low next to almost every other faction, especially as I'm sure most players will be wanting those extra enhancements or utilising the other battalions. I'm sick of being made to go first! 

Warning; rambling thoughts ahead!

While I see the merits of a heavy MSU-attrition list for Depravity, I'm approaching my lists with a mantra of forcing mistakes through target priority, being a list built around three or more big scary units that the opponent needs to deal with, forcing them down the target priority rabbit hole - it's the same kind of logic I use for Tyranids in 40k. Dexcessa is a must for this as she's a relatively cheap beatstick who is incredibly self sufficient and works best by charging up a flank into chaff and forcing the opponent to either commit resources to deal with her - in which case she gives herself +1 save for free thanks to her free CP usage each turn - or they leave her alone to focus their attention elsewhere and allow her to power up to a truly terrifying monster. The other main options I've identified so far from an Invaders/Lurid Haze lens are Archaon, Glutos, a Keeper with either permanent +1 to-hit or a 5++, Be'lakor (in conjunction with anything that reduces Bravery to stack healing on him), a block of 10 Twinsouls, Sigvald and One-Eyed Grunnock. These are all units that are mobile, tough and hit hard, with some being more buff reliant than others; many of them either can't be buffed directly (such as Be'lakor) or don't need them (like the +1 to-hit Keeper.) The nice thing here is that a lot of our buffs are universal; (Overwhelming) Acquiescence gives re-rolls 1s for all attacks made against the target, so even allied units get the benefit.

What limits this approach a bit is having to fit two sub-commanders in to unlock the extra artifact (critical for Lurid Haze, not so much for Invaders) through the Warlord core battalion. I think the Rod of Misrule is inarguably the strongest artifact we can take, especially with the slew of new command abilities we can really take advantage of. Unfortunately, Lurid Haze lists are forced to take another artifact first - one that's best tossed into the Fane to permanently power up the wielder (good choices are a Keeper and Bladebringer, or if you need sub-commanders, a Lord on Karkadrak.) In my view, this pretty much forces you to take the Warlord battalion in a Lurid Haze list, with the possible exception of a list that includes one or both of Archaon (free CP generated in your turn) and Dexcessa (free command in each turn.) Conversely, an Invaders list has no such trouble, and thus has no need to build into the Warlord battalion - I'd say the best reason to for Invaders is to give a Keeper the 5++ which goes some way to justifying that exorbitant price tag. 

I keep going back and forth on Lurid Haze versus Invaders, with the necessity of needing two sub commanders (which might not fit the list) in Lurid Haze for Warlord being the biggest sticking point. Having access to an additional +1 save command ability for the combat phase is great, as are the redeployment mind games you can use with the ambush ability, so I still think Lurid Haze is worth building into if you have the CP and the units to take advantage of it. As mentioned earlier, Archaon lists and/or lists with Dexcessa love it; you want multiple big scaries to really make the most of the extra +1 save. Sigvald and Marauders are the obvious ambush choices, but if you view the ambush as just a redeploy, it's good for most units - even just to quickly get them into a good position, or protect them from an alpha strike. 

With all that in mind, I've come to one conclusion; writing lists is so much harder right now than it used to be. Our exorbitant points certainly don't help, but it's tough to think about where points should be spent, if herohammer is the way, how much "meat" to pack into the list, etc. The other question I keep asking myself is if I really need a Sorcerer Lord for Archaon...and seeing as he's a cheap sub-commander, I'm still leaning towards "absolutely" :D

The worst part of list building right now is trying to pack in the 'meat' of the army. Slickblades are in a tough spot where they aren't terrible but they would have been just fine at their old cost, and now Hellstriders are legitimate competition that fill Battleline slots. With how powerful our heroes are now, it's a struggle to fit more than just the minimum Battleline without feeling like I'm investing in the wrong area. Like a block of Twinsouls is great, but could those points be better spent elsewhere?

The last thought I've got is how stupidly good monstrous rampages and Unleash Hell are for us. End of each charge phase, on a 2+ a unit within 3" of a monster takes D3 mortal wounds. 'Ok cool' you might think...but how many combats have you experienced where your monster dies before it gets to land a blow? That's a Depravity point we wouldn't have otherwise received - and the same is true if you charge and kill an enemy monster in one go; we'll happily eat the D3 mortal wounds for another Depravity point. The same logic applies to Unleash Hell; it gives us Depravity we would not have gotten before. It makes one of a unit of Blissbarbs, an Enrapturess or even Synessa near mandatory - especially as ranged Depravity generation is already critical. New Arcane Bolt too; save it for a charging enemy and zap them. 

How you feel about arch, chaos lord, chaos sorcerer lord, Dex, one unit of blossbarbs, and 2 hellstriders…. Leaves about 200 for something else maybe a sphinx or fomoroid crusher and an. Endless spell?

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@AngryPanda It never made sense lore wise for Slaaneshi to be Summoning Faction Number 1. After years of reading GW fiction, Tzeentch and Nurgle are far more "Summoning gods" then Slaanesh or Khorne. Which does not mean that Slaaneshi and Khornate daemons do not march alongside mortals, of course they do, but it means that followers of Tzeentch are more likely to summon daemons and followers of Nurgle will spread diseases turning people into daemons.

@MothmanDraws A excellent post, that is precisely how I think the Four Chaos gods should play.

Anyway, I have been tinkering with some lists in preparation for a local tournament, I will be blunt and say that I weep now for our second wave points. A lot of my games involved usage of Slickblades and now they are simply far too expensive plus Hellstriders are now competing with them and are in some aspects better.

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The idea behind depravity points and summoning to me is Slaanesh rewarding extremes with a bigger audience. Slaaneshi champions are vain, selfish, and generally arrogant to the extreme. They want to bask in the attention they get from their god as the indulge in every pain and pleasure they can. Many hedonites need the field of battle to get any real satisfaction.

So that's how envision it, a great festival of depravity acting as locus for daemonic summoning. Out of battle this is how Dex and Syn was brought in, a constant stream of pain and mirrors (cause Slaanesh need those mirrors!), i.e. a constant build of up of depraved action.

This is also reflected in Glutos and Sigvald as they compete for the favour of their patron god. They even went so far as you fight each other in battle at the expense of "the larger objective." It is all about me, me, me. I'm the best, I'm the most important, and EVERYONE should watch and adore me.

My question is, where does your personal idea of the army versus what the army is clash? Sometimes it seems people are projecting what they think the army should be rather than what it is. I'm saying this both in terms of setting up expectations to reach disappointment but also as a way to reflect on what could be.

Like @AngryPanda mentions, Depravity Points could easily functions in a similar way to Blood tithes in BoK. I could also see it working like Drukhari's power from pain or certain acts earns your depravity tokens to spend in some manner. As it is, summoning is pretty darn powerful though and rather than being frustrated by having to summon I build my lists in a similar nature to FEC. What that means is that I know I will summon and build my army with it in mind as opposed to seeing it as a limitation or flaw. 

Even though I'm annoyingly optimistic I'm not blind to some of the issues (some point changes are just "eh???"). I just try to live my life with the outlook of, "Why are you looking back? You are not going that way", as Ragnar Lothbrock said.

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I think us becoming a summoning army is actually quite accidental and more due to the development of our rules rather than trying to fit us to a narrative.

For some Slaaneshi history:

In 2015/16 we had no allegiance ability (like many others) and also no real joining factors in our army. We were fast, had bad saves, and daemonettes were really really good. However, on the whole, we were kind of bad as we had no real synergies with only daemonettes being worth their salt in damage, and hellstriders for that sweet -1 to hit aura. 

2017 rolled around and we got some allegiance abilities in the GHB, under the title Hosts of Slaanesh. Our allegiance abilities were just the host rules, which gave very similar benefits (with Invaders being used to let us use multiple command abilities, such were the days of AoS 1). We had one trick to keep us competitive and that was sticking a 6" pile in on the KoS, which was actually pretty great and caused a lot of arguments in tournaments :P 

In 2018, AoS 2 game out and with it, free summoning. Despite our KoS shenanigans, our allegiance abilities were pretty meh and our units were just okay (Hellstriders, Daemonettes, and the KoS being exceptions). Depravity points were introduced with two goals (stated in the article when they came out): to give Slaanesh a competitive edge, and to make Slaanesh more about boastful heroes rather than hordes. Even in this point during old depravity, our heroes were good (6" pile in exalted keeper pretty much single handedly winning a tournament for me) but in general not good enough to make an entire army out of them as they were far too squishy without the pile in (the KoS had 10 wounds and no protection). We still probably had the strongest summoning in the game, but our faction was pretty weak. At this time, many people found our summoning fluffy - arrogant heroes being the centre of the army and drawing more daemons towards them. It was a strong tool, but not the focus.

And then 2019 came about... we got two new allegiance abilities (Euphoric Killers and Locus of Diversion) as well as expanded hosts with their own artifacts. No more 6" pile in, but we didn't need it anymore. More than that, depravity was unchanged despite our heroes benefitting massively from our two new abilities. I'm sure everyone remembers how it went, but 3-4 KoS charging down the opponent and summoning 2+ more KoS round 2 was common. No longer were daemonettes or Hellstriders used as anything more than cheap battleline, and in combination with our other buffs, summoning was now our most broken ability. I distinctly remember a stream on a Warhammer World tournament with Slaanesh vs Ogors which ended in 200 depravity points in turn 2.

At the end of 2019 and in 2020, we were toned down again, with summoning and locus getting a nerf. Summoning had gone from a nice little tool to a meta defining (and arguably ruining) allegiance ability. The hashtag #ShelveSlaanesh was commonly seen and GW had certainly caught note of it. Because of how broken it was, we were fully associated with depravity points. Even Slaanesh fans stopped liking them as it forced them down one path of spamming KoSs.

When 2021 came about, there was a push away from this. We moved towards all units generating DP, with a high price tag due to PTSD of 2019. Because we were so intertwined with DP now - defining our first book - there was a big focus on rewriting it so it was good but not oppressive for both sides. I think they succeeded, but this focus on depravity points was just a natural progression of how our rules had developed.

TL;DR summoning used to be a fun and fluffy little tool that accidentally became game breaking due to the 2019 book not accounting for how good our heroes would become. The 2019 meta has etched its way into the schema of the Slaanesh faction, and now has become an integral part of our faction. 

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Well, I may be in the minority here but I really like summoning mechanics of Slaanesh. It's for me the main selling point of the army. The other one is the Keeper of Secrets and almost all the daemons because I love the sculpts (yes even deamonettes :p). Too bad as a new player I missed the golden era...

The mortal side is just a bonus to me. And right now I feel bad because it looks like 2x5 hellstriders are mandatory in any list I make, and they are just ugly. :/

Can't wait to see all your lists, because I really have a hard time making choices!

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I think Depravity would be much cooler if, rather than summoning, or getting buffs it would allow us to debuff the opponent some. However, that's much harder to balance so I understand why they don't go down that route. I just love the idea of the enemy army being overcome by the excesses of battle as the Slaanesh army goes on doing more damage and causing more carnage that all the depravity and exultation erodes their senses and the lure to abandon themselves and join in builds and builds. 

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28 minutes ago, Kaulder said:

Well, I may be in the minority here but I really like summoning mechanics of Slaanesh. It's for me the main selling point of the army. The other one is the Keeper of Secrets and almost all the daemons because I love the sculpts (yes even deamonettes :p). Too bad as a new player I missed the golden era...

Don't worry too much about missing the golden era - it was fun for all of two weeks before everyone refused to play against you and you got side eyed in tournaments :P

Overall depravity has changed for the better as we can now use the models we want and still benefit from the allegiance equally. I think it's one of the most positive changes in the book.

I also quite like new LoD, but I'd have liked it if mortal heroes got something too - maybe not a locus, but maybe something bravery based.

31 minutes ago, Kaulder said:

The mortal side is just a bonus to me. And right now I feel bad because it looks like 2x5 hellstriders are mandatory in any list I make, and they are just ugly. :/

Can't wait to see all your lists, because I really have a hard time making choices!

I think you can get away with not using Hellstriders if you're willing to pay for a LoP and Painbringers/Twinsouls :)

Hellstriders are fast and kinda okay at taking a light punch, but they won't do much. Usually, if they're not dead in the first combat, they'll be dead in the second.

Painbringers on the other hand, with new mystic shield, tank hard but do some damage and count as battleline, unlike warriors. You can combine them with Glutos for more tanking potential.

 As for lists, I'm going to try out this one tonight (hopefully):

 

Lurid Haze (Invaders)

Heroes:

Lord of Pain (general), Lurid Haze trait and artifact (155 pts)

Syll'esske (general), Born of Damnation (210 pts)

Dexcessa (280 pts)

Sigvald (general) (265 points) 

Shardspeaker, Rod of Misrule, Ghost Mist (150 pts) 

Battleline

10 Twinsouls (370 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

Mesmirising Mirror (80)

Warlord Battalion (Dexcessa, Lord of Pain, Syll'Essque, Shardspeaker, all Painbringers)

Vanguard Battalion (Sigvald, Twinsouls)

We're going to want to take the "keep your general alive and kill their's" victory condition because they have to kill three of our generals. 

I'm not sure how well this will go, but I'm willing to try it - it's mostly just a throw stuff at the wall kind of list.

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2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Lurid Haze (Invaders)

Heroes:

Lord of Pain (general), Lurid Haze trait and artifact (155 pts)

Syll'esske (general), Born of Damnation (210 pts)

Dexcessa (280 pts)

Sigvald (general) (265 points) 

Shardspeaker, Rod of Misrule, Ghost Mist (150 pts) 

Battleline

10 Twinsouls (370 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

Mesmirising Mirror (80)

Warlord Battalion (Dexcessa, Lord of Pain, Syll'Essque, Shardspeaker, all Painbringers)

Vanguard Battalion (Sigvald, Twinsouls)

We're going to want to take the "keep your general alive and kill their's" victory condition because they have to kill three of our generals. 

 

Seems similar to what I've been wanting to try, I was looking to fill the other 170 points and only have 2 units of painbringers I may just have to get a third! I was tempted with daemonettes to try and bid for the triumph, and maybe have some use of the Syll esske balancing power.

Personally I'd take flaming blade on Syll esske, lots of attacks at damage 2 would be really nice! 

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47 minutes ago, Feorag said:

Seems similar to what I've been wanting to try, I was looking to fill the other 170 points and only have 2 units of painbringers I may just have to get a third! I was tempted with daemonettes to try and bid for the triumph, and maybe have some use of the Syll esske balancing power.

Personally I'd take flaming blade on Syll esske, lots of attacks at damage 2 would be really nice! 

I'll update you on how the Painbringers perform :) With +1 saving being easy to get, I reckon they'll do well, but I'll check. 

As an aside, I recent built 15 of them and they're super easy to repose - I'll post an update on them when they're actually painted, but in a large unit they don't all look like clones. 

I was thinking about the flaming blade on them - I agree that it'd be brutal, but I'm not sure if we'll need the healing. I'm unsure as of now, but I'll check in this game. That said, I'm against Tzeentch so no clue how many spells I'll manage to cast :P

 

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46 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'll update you on how the Painbringers perform :) With +1 saving being easy to get, I reckon they'll do well, but I'll check. 

As an aside, I recent built 15 of them and they're super easy to repose - I'll post an update on them when they're actually painted, but in a large unit they don't all look like clones. 

I was thinking about the flaming blade on them - I agree that it'd be brutal, but I'm not sure if we'll need the healing. I'm unsure as of now, but I'll check in this game. That said, I'm against Tzeentch so no clue how many spells I'll manage to cast :P

 

I have 10 built and all posed different same with 10 twinsouls. When I use 2x5 painbringers I use the spear one from the dread pageant 2 have 2 really different units 

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So, half a week later, I'm still not happy with our points and everything... but I still love the models. I'm continuing to paint up seekers cause I love the models. Definitely not buying anymore for a long time, cause I just don't have room. I have two unopened boxes of Myrms/Syms. Do I return them for one of the twins (I guess I'd build Dexcessa? twins are a mess)? Build a 10 man symbaresh squad?

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So I'm trying to come up with list ideas until we get an FAQ on whether or not we can take Archaon (I had just gotten him before the rules released 😭) and here's my current idea:

Lurid haze

Glutos general, flaming weapons, battle rapture 475ptd

Lord of pain general, feverish anticipation, oil of exultation 155pts

Sigvald 265pts

twinsouls x10 370pts

blissbarbs x11 180pts

blissbarbs x11 180pts

hellstriders hellscourges x5 135pts

hellstriders hellscourges x5 135pts

wheels of excrutiation 100pts

1995pts total

warlord battalion (but could be battle regiment)

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27 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

So I'm trying to come up with list ideas until we get an FAQ on whether or not we can take Archaon (I had just gotten him before the rules released 😭) and here's my current idea:

Lurid haze

Glutos general, flaming weapons, battle rapture 475ptd

Lord of pain general, feverish anticipation, oil of exultation 155pts

Sigvald 265pts

twinsouls x10 370pts

blissbarbs x11 180pts

blissbarbs x11 180pts

hellstriders hellscourges x5 135pts

hellstriders hellscourges x5 135pts

wheels of excrutiation 100pts

1995pts total

warlord battalion (but could be battle regiment)

You can use Archaon, but he's a coalition unit... which for the most part means nothing. He's not allied in, he gets everything. But if you brought in marauders, then they are slaanesh units for friendly SLAANESH models, but they don't count for battleline.

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7 hours ago, Enoby said:

 As for lists, I'm going to try out this one tonight (hopefully):

 

Lurid Haze (Invaders)

Heroes:

Lord of Pain (general), Lurid Haze trait and artifact (155 pts)

Syll'esske (general), Born of Damnation (210 pts)

Dexcessa (280 pts)

Sigvald (general) (265 points) 

Shardspeaker, Rod of Misrule, Ghost Mist (150 pts) 

Battleline

10 Twinsouls (370 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

Mesmirising Mirror (80)

Warlord Battalion (Dexcessa, Lord of Pain, Syll'Essque, Shardspeaker, all Painbringers)

Vanguard Battalion (Sigvald, Twinsouls)

We're going to want to take the "keep your general alive and kill their's" victory condition because they have to kill three of our generals. 

I'm not sure how well this will go, but I'm willing to try it - it's mostly just a throw stuff at the wall kind of list.

This is similar to what I was considering -

Battle Regiment -

Dexcessa

11 Blissbarbs

5 Painbringers

5 Painbringers

The Dread Pageant

 

Warlord -

Herald on Exalted Chariot - Flaming weapon and 5+ ward

Lord of Pain

Shardspeaker - Ghost mist
10 Twinsouls

Wheels of Excurciation

1950pts in total.

 

I am debating between all three subfactions lurid haze is always good, faultless blades has some merits too and godseekers would let me change up the battalions a little as I wouldn't need a second artifact for the ward.  However I like wont have time to give any of this a go in the next week or two so would be good to hear how you get on.  I am interested in how syll'esske plays in the table, I always want to like them but they have always been a little disappointing.

Looking at my maths I did forget to factor in masque's rerolls, if you can reliably get the wound rerolls she really goes up in value.  I would also be interested if anyone has tried the small slaves to darkness monsters, the sphiranx seems interesting to ally in at 95pts.

Edit, forgot about the wheels in the list

Edited by Apinecone
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Are Painbringers worth it in min squads over something like Hellstriders? Twinsouls are ace but pain bringers seem like a heavy tax compared to hellstriders who I would imagine are far superior in terms of flexibility.

Edited by AmonRa
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34 minutes ago, AmonRa said:

Are Painbringers worth it in min squads over something like Hellstriders? Twinsouls are ace but pain bringers seem like a heavy tax compared to hellstriders who I would imagine are far superior in terms of flexibility.

The biggest downside to painbringers is needing the lord of pain not the comparison to hellstriders.  Despite some people talking up the new cheaper hellstriders unless the clawspears get the charge they are some of the worst damage in our army point for point.  While painbringers are not that much better they are one of our best damaging units against 2+ saves, but lack the weight of attacks against other targets.  Though you are really taking painbringers for the rerolls to saves and how well that stacks with the +1 to save command.  Hellstriders on the other hand do give much better coverage when it comes to blocking areas because of their bases, so that is what you are weighing up.

 

Honestly I can believe hellstriders are the better choice but it is close and painbringers have the nicer model so that sways me but I haven't had time to put it all to the test.

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Just finished first game with HoS using our new points. Initially it was meant to be against Tzeentch, but unfortunately the player forgot their models so ended up proxying and playing Beasts of Chaos.

I think, if this is anything to go by, we are not the worst army in AoS 3 :P

Headonites of Slaanesh list: 

 

Lurid Haze (Invaders)

Heroes:

Lord of Pain (general), Lurid Haze trait and artifact (155 pts)

Syll'esske (general), Born of Damnation (210 pts)

Dexcessa (280 pts)

Sigvald (general) (265 points) 

Shardspeaker, Rod of Misrule, Ghost Mist (150 pts) 

Battleline

10 Twinsouls (370 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

5 Painbringers (160 pts)

Mesmirising Mirror (80)

Warlord Battalion (Dexcessa, Lord of Pain, Syll'Essque, Shardspeaker, all Painbringers)

Vanguard Battalion (Sigvald, Twinsouls)

Beasts of Chaos List (unsure on spells and artefacts)

Heroes:

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth 

Dragon Ogor Shaggoth

Monsters:

Ghorgon

Cygor

Chimera

Chimera

Cockatrice 

Battleline:

Dragon Ogor

Dragon Ogor

Dragon Ogor

Other

Tzaangor skyfires

Spells:

Wildfire Taurus

---

From the get-go, you can see my army looks pretty small on the table top (apologies for unpainted models, and that Dex is unbuild currently):

20210621_193016.jpg.7bdef32cd882955999052358eec883c7.jpg

They had to proxy models as they had forgotten theirs, but from what I can recall, the Shaggoths were Shartor the Executioner and the other small blank base, the Magmadroths were chimera, the stonehorn was a ghorgon and the large blank base was the cygor. The chaos dwarf centaurs were the dragon ogors - a little confusing, but the best that could be done with what we had! 

They set up first as they had the one drop battalion.

Slaanesh Turn 1

I decided to play aggressively, using Sigvald to teleport in front of the Cygor and Syll'Esske in front of the chimera and cockatrice, with Dexcessa into their herdstone and dragon ogors. Everyone else moved up, with the twinsouls getting ready to countercharge should their army try take the left flank. 

Sigvald rolled and 8 to charge and did 12 damage to the Cygor, Syll'Esske did about 5 to the chimera, and Dex killed two of the dragon ogors (who had locus of diversion on them). Dex took one damage, Sigvald took 2, and Syll'Esske took two. Dexcessa broke the herdstone. 

20210621_204341.jpg.ff4cb2eee98b70f377452d9164904e59.jpg

I captured all objectives including the special one, besides my opponent's. I believe that was 4 VP. 

I gained 7 depravity points. 

Beast of Chaos turn 1

They decided to move up and punish my heroes who had in all likelyhood overextended in a bit of a gamble. They moved up both Shaggoths to Dexcessa, a unit of dragon ogors to Sigvald, and a chimera and more dragon ogors to the painbringers on the left flank.

The chimera and skyfires shot into the unit in the centre, doing 7 mortal wounds overall. They also did 2 MWs against Syll'Esske with the injured chimera's breath. The cockatrice failed to do its mortal wounds. 

The shaggoth, who was having their finest hour, only did 5 damage to Dexcessa, who killed the other dragon over before they could have the chance to attack. Syll'Esske was left on one wound after the chimera attacked, and they killed the cockatrice. The dragon ogors and Cygor did nothing to Sigvald, who killed the Cygor and didn't scratch the dragon ogors. The dragon ogors and chimera did 6 damage to the 3+ save rerolling painbringers, who did a damage or so onto the chimera. 20210621_211133.jpg.4d96ee4cecf1059fa437353010f05135.jpg

They captured one objective from me.

I gained 7 depravity points again, putting me on 14. 

I won the priority.

Slaanesh turn 2

I didn't take a picture here, but the rod of misrule backfired and gave the beasts of chaos a command point, and I failed to cast anything useful. However, the painbringers went up with their rerolling hits and Dexcessa healed 3 wounds, retreating to the skyfires next to the shardspeaker and painbringers. Syll'Esske retreated (deciding it wasn't worth the risk of getting them killed for no reason in combat). The painbringers in the dragon ogors retreated so the twinsouls could get in properly - it was a risk that did hurt in the end.

I summoned a KoS, but it failed the charge and didn't really do much for the rest of the game.  

The Chimera used their flame breath when the Twinsouls charged them and also stomped them, doing 9 mortal wounds - which was painful! Sigvald stayed chipping away at the dragon ogors, killing one of them. The shardspeaker had successfully targeted the chimera with the +1 to wound. 

The 6 Twinsouls got their revenge, doing 14 damage against the chimera and 8 against the dragon ogors, with a +1 to hit. Dexcessa fluffed and only killed a single skyfire, but continued to keep the centre. I think Sigvald killed a dragon ogor and put one on two wounds remaining. The dragon ogor next to the twinsouls fled. 

I spent a cp to keep the twinsouls around.

I kept all of my objectives. 

I think I got 4dp this turn, but I can't quite remember.

Beasts of Chaos turn 2

They didn't have much left at this point, but kept into Sigvald (who had still only taken 4 wounds) and charged a single dragon ogor, the chimera, and the shaggoth into Dexcessa. They also charged the ghorgon into the twinsouls. I used finest hour on Dex. 

The chimera did some mortal wounds, but not many - maybe like 1 into Dexcessa. The Shaggoth attacked and did about 3 damage, and then Dex struck back and killed the chimera. Sigvald killed the dragon ogors. The Ghorgon did nothing, but then managed to save 10/11 5+ saves against the twinsouls, which was quote funny. The single dragon ogor and skyfires did nothing. 

I think I got 2 dp this turn because most things just died. 

They captured the centre objective from me, but nothing else. 

20210621_213409.jpg.8d09bbe47c9e3d91ecf6c9ba7db15c9e.jpg

They won the priority

Beasts of Chaos turn 3

Getting double turned did hurt, but it was hardly lethal. They mostly just continued their assault on Dexcessa, who did kill the dragon ogor and a skyfire (who they kept fluffing against). They only managed to put 5 wounds onto Dexcessa, leaving them on 1, but the lighting bolt from the shaggoth at the end finished them off. Other than that, not much happened or changed. 

20210621_214954.jpg.d093b36287e387b4089f7a2c95811a86.jpg

By this point we called it, knowing the keeper could go in and probably clean house neatly, especially with the depravity I had saved up. 

This was their dead pile by turn 3 (not including Sigvald, though I'm sure he'd claim responsibility)20210621_214958.jpg.755fd378e840db08474f614d48adff64.jpg

---

Overall, a very fun game and I think pretty much all units pulled their weight, especially Dexcessa. However, it should be noted that beasts of chaos are, well, they're not great. I think against most armies my brashness would have been punished harder, and that's certainly something to consider for next time. 

That said, I'm not sure how much Syll'Esske brought to the list - I don't think I had enough mortals to really make the most of them battleshock wise. I'm not sure if they would have been better used as another unit of painbringers or maybe even Synessa (losing the endless spell which I was struggling to cast anyway). 

Dexcessa - really fun to use throughout the entire game, and the healing was very useful being able to use it in both hero phases. They did pretty nice damage but I think they really helped the finesse army feeling, able to easily escape bad situations and charge to more advantageous positions.

Sigvald - he did good damage and tanked a lot, though he did have the issue of, once he was done, he took would take a long while getting back into the fight. I'd take him again, but probably only in Lurid Haze as his mobility suffers otherwise (though I think he may become more and more useful as ward saved become more common) 

Syll'Esske - they did okay damage, but their biggest utility is battleshock immunity, which is nice but didn't come up as often as I thought it would. I'm thinking, in a non-Lurid Haze list, I'd rather have Glutos than Syll'Esske and Sigvald as I think he would provide more utility. 

Lord of Pain - he didn't do anything except allow my army to be built. He guarded his objective valiantly

Shardspeaker - better than before as that +1 to wound was easier to reach with, and it does really help improve damage when you want something dead. Not 100% sure she would be a must take, but nice if you have a spare 150 points 

Painbringers - didn't bring much pain, but they were a really nice roadblock that did exactly what I wanted them to do. They did get a bit unlucky, but I liked them and they didn't let me down. 

Twinsouls - While the 9 mortal wounds to the face did hurt a lot, they also brought a lot of damage to the table when rerolling hits. If the Ghorgon hadn't passed 10 of the 11 5+ saves and had just rolled average, they'd have swept over that side of the board totally and would have dominated the game even further. 

Mesmerising Mirror - I couldn't manage to cast it so I can't comment much on it, besides saying that I normally wouldn't want an endless spell without having a more dedicated caster. Glutos would likely be such a caster. 

Overall, I really enjoyed the game even if we did feel very sparse on the ground. If you look at one of the final images, it looks like we are both running low on units, but in reality I only lost a single unit throughout the game (right at the end) and I just started with very little. 

I imaging this was a poor BoC list, but it certainly didn't inspire much confidence in their faction. I hope they get a new book soon - they need it! 

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Highlighting a point that @Jaskier and @Enoby made from their experiences, it seems Twinsouls are going to have a place in a number of Slaanesh list due to their damage-dealing potential. 
 

I’m not saying that the points are justifiable, and I am still on the same boat with you guys ifor the vast majority of the models. However, after looking at the Twinsouls again, I’m starting to think that they may be worth the 185 luxury price tag, and that they may actually be a bit undercosted in 3.0. 
 

Before you consider me crazy or a traitor, here me out on this. AoS 3.0 had made a number of changes, one of the biggest being unit coherency. The majority of horde or elite infantry blocks will no longer have the killing potential that they did in the past due to only have 1 inch on their weapons ; the exception is Twinsouls with their 2 inch range. 
 

A unit of 10 Twinsouls will be able to throw in 30 attacks, rerolling to hit on +3 with CP buff, and wounding on +3 (+2 if a Shardspeaker tags along). It is rare to have that many attacks at such a high quality in this edition; you’re not going to see many units in the game with this potential for damage output. Sure they have no rend, but when you’re doing 2 damage for every successful wound, even if a measly three or four attacks make it through that’s still 6-8 damage. 
 

The same can be said for Painbringers, who will have easy access to a +3 save, and will be much harder to damage now that unit coherency is much more limiting. A unit of 10 Painbringers supported by Glutos and an emerald swarm is going to be very “fun.” 
 

If you ally in some cheap monsters to get access to the new monster abilities, like the Mindstealer Sphiranx that has a rule that mimics our original Locus of Diversion, and suddenly you’re looking at an army that hits you first with the potential for little repercussion. 

None of this includes the ability to summon in Daemons, which have the opportunity to fill in gaps (battleline to hold objectives, Fiends to hunt monsters or calvary, etc.) 

The points suck, but that doesn’t mean we need to suck as well. The great thing about being an underdog is that nobody suspects you to put up a decent fight; this element of surprise is can give us the opportunity to make some lists that catch people off guard.  Take a look at the list below and let me know what you think: 


Slaanesh List #2

Invaders- 3 cp a turn (Rod, General, Beginning of Turn) 4 first round (Warlord Battalion) 

2000/2000

Warlord Battalion 

- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact 

 

Heroes:

 

Glutos- 475

- Spell: Judgement of Excess

 

Shardspeaker- 150

General #1 

Artifact: Amulet of Destiny 

- Spell: Dark Delusions 

 

Lord of Pain- 155

General #2

Command Trait: Glory Hog

Artifact: Rod of Misrule

Triumph: Inspired  

 

Batteline:

Twinsouls x 10- 370

Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180

Painbringers x 10- 320

 

Monsters- 

Mindstealer Sphiranx- 95

Mindstealer Sphiranx- 95

 

Endless Spells:

Emerald Swarm (60) 

Wheels of Excruciation (100)

 

Summons: 

Fiends

Daemonettes

Keeper of Secret

Infernal Enrapturess 

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The thing about Symbaresh is that while their damage output is fantastic, they are a massive glass cannon; 185 points for 10 wounds at a 4+ save with a 5++ for either 2 or 3 turns in a game is not great, and their damage drops off significantly against 3+ and 2+ saves which are only going to be more common in 3.0. I'd say that 160 (and 130-140 for Myrmidesh) is probably the sweet spot for them. They're in the same spot as Keepers in that their actual rules are great in the context of 3.0, but they're quite overcosted for what they do (Keepers much moreso.) 

Edited by Jaskier
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Alright, for those of you following along at home (and I truly appreciate the feedback and the messages, I try to answer every question I am asked, so if I miss yours just give me a nudge. I am really trying to be part of this community going forward for the new edition rather than living in my own bubble) and who enjoy wordy posts I am back again after 2 more games which means more updates.

I won't be rehashing the bad unless its now a confirmation or some such, but will be going over each unit I have used, and my feelings on them.

For those who want a refresher, or who haven't seen it yet this is the list I am committing 10 games to, before I allow myself to make some changes (3 unit swaps max) as I really want to make sure I am not writing things off as too good, or too bad too quickly.
 

Spoiler


Invaders Host (Lurid Haze Subfaction)

Battle Regiment (1 Drop)
Commander

Lord of Pain (General)
Sub-commanders
Shardspeaker (General)
Sigvald (General)
Troops
10 Twinsouls
5 Painbringers
5 Painbringers
5 Slickblades
5 Slickblades

No Battalion
11 Blissbarb Archers

Endless Spells
Wheels of Excruciation

So lets start with the Battalions. I am LOVING the new Core Battalions for us. While we had one okayish Warscroll Battalion, being able to manipulate almost any list into a Battle Regiment is huge. I honestly feel like I am going to try to maximize that being my only Battalion (and maybe my only drop) going forward. Going first for us is massive, and our costs actually mean we rarely want to have too many more drops anyways. So for me this is a must have. The next closest drop anyone has had was I believe 5 or 6 against me, and yeah going first is amazing.

Now as for heroes I haven't really changed my opinion much here. Sigvald is still great, but he really needs a lot of attacks to generate enough value. Usually it isn't an issue, but when it is he does suck for what he costs, but that isn't new. He is a fine addition to any list, and the D3 outflanking units allow him to do some stupid stuff for Lurid Haze. Lord of Pain is fine. He isn't exciting, and his lack of speed compared to both Twinsouls and Slickblades in my list kinda makes me sad. Wholly within 12" with his speed makes my battleline less efficent for his Command Ability which is good. As such I haven't been using it as much where it would make a difference. I really wish he had a mounted version. That said his 5+ Ward is strong, and his reflection is amusing. He isn't something I love, but is required I feel due to cost, and to make use of the Lurid Haze options. The Shardspeaker is terrible, and I love her. I know, kind of weird, but hear me out. The cap to her save roll kinda sucks, but if the enemy is rocking a -1 Rend then a 4+ is still reasonable I guess. Usually they can only target her with range, and as such she either dies easy or doesn't at all. So really its a wash IMO. That said she makes the Twinsouls a beast. Sadly she is also slow, however not needing to have anyone wholly within a range helps. I have been using her basically as a Twinsoul. She sits in the unit/right behind and selects an enemy unit the Twinsouls want to eat as her prey. Using both the Twisted Mirror for the +1 to Wound rolls for the Twinsouls on the enemy unit, and then casting Reflection Eternal to make the Twinsouls harder to wound against the same unit is amazing. When both go off its just disgusting. Likely a little excessive, but its who we are. All in all I feel my hero choices are fine, if a little boring. The weakest and often "worse" is the Shardspeaker, but she is also my favourite and done serious work.

Twinsouls. I hate the models (well just the heads, so I fixed them), and honestly didn't consider them in 2nd very often despite me knowing they were solid. That said WOW. I cannot stress this enough. Twinsouls are without a doubt, the MVP of every game I have played. I rarely lose more than half the unit, and they do work FAR above their point cost. I was hesitant of their price, like many people, and was even more grossed out planning to commit another 150 point Hero to babysit them. But they have been worth it. Let's go over the first thing. 2". It might not sound like much to some people, but 2 inches is a lot of power. I run them as 10, so they are subject to the new coherency rule. A lot of people dislike it or are worried about it (I am okay with it myself, but I can see the arguments) But let me just say that with 2" range on their melee weapons it is very rare they don't all attack. Combined with their own natural buffs (and the Shardspeaker) they are often -1 to be wounded, get +1 to wound the enemy target, have either a Ward save or reroll hits (both are really great) means they are blenders. Hordes? Elite Infantry? Heroes? Monsters? Cavalry? doesn't matter. They bring it down again and again. My only disappointment is a lack of Rend. 37 points a model and I can't even have -1 Rend? It is annoying at times, especially with how easy +1 to saves is. At least its capped, but still I want some Rend bad. But the 2 Damage, 8" move, 2" melee threat and the buffs I do have for them still make them an utter powerhouse for me every single game.

Painbringers, oh how I love thee. I know they are boring. They don't do anything. They don't move fast. They don't kill anything ever. They are just so bland. But bland has a place; and that place is never dying. Like ever. Seriously. 160 Points for 5, has them able to survive thing worth twice their cost with ease. +1 Save is easy to get for us, and rerolling it is amazing. The enemy has to commit models with -2 Rend to reliably shift even a minimum unit of these guys and gals. And if they do that then we are winning trades. They don't get to do much, and their attacks are whatever, but they do not give up control of an area without a lot more commitment point wise than they cost (and I have 2 units of them which makes it even better IMO). These guy's may never be MVP because of output, but without them my battlelines may have shifted and I would have lost a lot of board control. I continue to be impressed by them every time.

Slickblades... I did say I didn't want to dwell or rehash the negatives so let's just be clear. Sadly I do not believe these have a place in my list after 10 games. Each game continues to reaffirm that they aren't worth it. They have great speed, solid output, and are a ton of fun to use. But in a competitive sense (which I always gear towards regardless of the game) they are at least 30 points too much. They just don't feel good to play, and while the speed is important; I believe I can access that from either Blissbarb Seekers, or most likely Hellstriders. I love the models, and plan to paint up a full 20 still for my collection, but feel they will be pushed aside for the coming months at the very least unless I am VERY wrong about the meta and the new edition. Time will either prove me a fool, or vindicate these feelings. I do hope I am the fool.

Blissbarb Archers are not as bad as I thought. I will admit; I was playing them wrong. I committed them alone to an objective or area and they died without support while doing very little. I have now been using them in the middle of my battlelines usually with the Painbringers on either flank, and the Twinsouls ahead of them. Did you know the Lord of Pains ability is not limited to melee attacks? I didn't. But when I learnt that these guys got a whole new lease on life. They are my rear line, but still in the centre of the board. Shooting, moving, Unleashing Hell if anyone commits to trying to remove my Painbringers? Yes to all please. I am very happy with them as of late, and found something for my Lord of Pain to do too. All in all, they may be a few points too many, but I am happy to pay their cost going forward. However they will likely never be more than 11 or even a second unit. The placement required of them in my experience is exact, and the abilities only support one smaller unit. They are solid, but not something I will likely add more of when my list updates.

Wheels of Excruciation are AMAZING. Let me be clear, that I hated Endless Spells when they came out. Thought they were garbage and anyone playing them was bad. My tune has totally changed this edition. Moving them more just makes them actually good. That said I do believe you can likely switch the Wheels to something like a Pendulum if you need to save points. You'd lost 4" of movement, but the 2+ for at least 1 Mortal Wound is what's important. The Endless Spells are IMO how we generate a ton of Depravity this edition, and Wheels does it well, but there are other options if the 100 points is too steep for you (and I agree it is steep, but I don't mind paying it so far.)

Speaking of Depravity, yeah its good. Like really good. Easy to gather, and wonderful to spend. There is no a reason a well crafted Hedonites list is not summoning a 12 cost in turns 2 and 3 every game, and likely turn 4 (dependent on how much of the game you've already won). I won't lie; I have not been experimenting with Summoning. Its a Keeper on turn 2, a Keeper or 30 Daemonettes on turn 3 (matchup/board state dependent) and 20+ Daemonettes on turn 4 every game. It isn't exciting, but it works very very well. Summoning might be too strong, which is sad because I feel like it'll keep our points higher than they should be for many units, and especially keep the daemonic parts of our codex with no play outside of the summoning. I will try out Fiends and Seekers at some point (maybe even some Heralds) I promise, but Daemonettes and Keepers are the mainstay of our Summoning backbone I feel. They just work. Every time.

So for me I feel the list has a solid base, and I really am excited to do some swaps. Sigvald for Dexcessa? Slickblades for Hellstriders? Wheels for Pendelum? Those are my initial thoughts on changes if I were to change. What about you guys and gals? I know not everyone has the time to play like I do. Is there something you'd like me to try for my next list? A unit you really want me to summon in so I can see how it fits into the new edition? I am happy to try out some popular choices for sure. I will likely be crafting a new list for the next ten games before the weekend starts, so I am happy to take some suggestions for sure. As a community we can really work together to find the best (and worst) Hedonites has to offer, so let me know.

Hopefully this has been an interesting read for you all. I will repeat my mantra of the new edition. The changes are A LOT bigger than they appear on paper, so try out as much as you can before writing something off (Except Slaangors) and see how it plays on the table differently than you thought it would on paper. It isn't all sunshine, but there are rays of it out there for us to grab hold of I assure you.
 

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13 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

Alright, for those of you following along at home (and I truly appreciate the feedback and the messages, I try to answer every question I am asked, so if I miss yours just give me a nudge. I am really trying to be part of this community going forward for the new edition rather than living in my own bubble) and who enjoy wordy posts I am back again after 2 more games which means more updates.

I won't be rehashing the bad unless its now a confirmation or some such, but will be going over each unit I have used, and my feelings on them.

For those who want a refresher, or who haven't seen it yet this is the list I am committing 10 games to, before I allow myself to make some changes (3 unit swaps max) as I really want to make sure I am not writing things off as too good, or too bad too quickly.
 

  Hide contents


Invaders Host (Lurid Haze Subfaction)

Battle Regiment (1 Drop)
Commander

Lord of Pain (General)
Sub-commanders
Shardspeaker (General)
Sigvald (General)
Troops
10 Twinsouls
5 Painbringers
5 Painbringers
5 Slickblades
5 Slickblades

No Battalion
11 Blissbarb Archers

Endless Spells
Wheels of Excruciation

So lets start with the Battalions. I am LOVING the new Core Battalions for us. While we had one okayish Warscroll Battalion, being able to manipulate almost any list into a Battle Regiment is huge. I honestly feel like I am going to try to maximize that being my only Battalion (and maybe my only drop) going forward. Going first for us is massive, and our costs actually mean we rarely want to have too many more drops anyways. So for me this is a must have. The next closest drop anyone has had was I believe 5 or 6 against me, and yeah going first is amazing.

Now as for heroes I haven't really changed my opinion much here. Sigvald is still great, but he really needs a lot of attacks to generate enough value. Usually it isn't an issue, but when it is he does suck for what he costs, but that isn't new. He is a fine addition to any list, and the D3 outflanking units allow him to do some stupid stuff for Lurid Haze. Lord of Pain is fine. He isn't exciting, and his lack of speed compared to both Twinsouls and Slickblades in my list kinda makes me sad. Wholly within 12" with his speed makes my battleline less efficent for his Command Ability which is good. As such I haven't been using it as much where it would make a difference. I really wish he had a mounted version. That said his 5+ Ward is strong, and his reflection is amusing. He isn't something I love, but is required I feel due to cost, and to make use of the Lurid Haze options. The Shardspeaker is terrible, and I love her. I know, kind of weird, but hear me out. The cap to her save roll kinda sucks, but if the enemy is rocking a -1 Rend then a 4+ is still reasonable I guess. Usually they can only target her with range, and as such she either dies easy or doesn't at all. So really its a wash IMO. That said she makes the Twinsouls a beast. Sadly she is also slow, however not needing to have anyone wholly within a range helps. I have been using her basically as a Twinsoul. She sits in the unit/right behind and selects an enemy unit the Twinsouls want to eat as her prey. Using both the Twisted Mirror for the +1 to Wound rolls for the Twinsouls on the enemy unit, and then casting Reflection Eternal to make the Twinsouls harder to wound against the same unit is amazing. When both go off its just disgusting. Likely a little excessive, but its who we are. All in all I feel my hero choices are fine, if a little boring. The weakest and often "worse" is the Shardspeaker, but she is also my favourite and done serious work.

Twinsouls. I hate the models (well just the heads, so I fixed them), and honestly didn't consider them in 2nd very often despite me knowing they were solid. That said WOW. I cannot stress this enough. Twinsouls are without a doubt, the MVP of every game I have played. I rarely lose more than half the unit, and they do work FAR above their point cost. I was hesitant of their price, like many people, and was even more grossed out planning to commit another 150 point Hero to babysit them. But they have been worth it. Let's go over the first thing. 2". It might not sound like much to some people, but 2 inches is a lot of power. I run them as 10, so they are subject to the new coherency rule. A lot of people dislike it or are worried about it (I am okay with it myself, but I can see the arguments) But let me just say that with 2" range on their melee weapons it is very rare they don't all attack. Combined with their own natural buffs (and the Shardspeaker) they are often -1 to be wounded, get +1 to wound the enemy target, have either a Ward save or reroll hits (both are really great) means they are blenders. Hordes? Elite Infantry? Heroes? Monsters? Cavalry? doesn't matter. They bring it down again and again. My only disappointment is a lack of Rend. 37 points a model and I can't even have -1 Rend? It is annoying at times, especially with how easy +1 to saves is. At least its capped, but still I want some Rend bad. But the 2 Damage, 8" move, 2" melee threat and the buffs I do have for them still make them an utter powerhouse for me every single game.

Painbringers, oh how I love thee. I know they are boring. They don't do anything. They don't move fast. They don't kill anything ever. They are just so bland. But bland has a place; and that place is never dying. Like ever. Seriously. 160 Points for 5, has them able to survive thing worth twice their cost with ease. +1 Save is easy to get for us, and rerolling it is amazing. The enemy has to commit models with -2 Rend to reliably shift even a minimum unit of these guys and gals. And if they do that then we are winning trades. They don't get to do much, and their attacks are whatever, but they do not give up control of an area without a lot more commitment point wise than they cost (and I have 2 units of them which makes it even better IMO). These guy's may never be MVP because of output, but without them my battlelines may have shifted and I would have lost a lot of board control. I continue to be impressed by them every time.

Slickblades... I did say I didn't want to dwell or rehash the negatives so let's just be clear. Sadly I do not believe these have a place in my list after 10 games. Each game continues to reaffirm that they aren't worth it. They have great speed, solid output, and are a ton of fun to use. But in a competitive sense (which I always gear towards regardless of the game) they are at least 30 points too much. They just don't feel good to play, and while the speed is important; I believe I can access that from either Blissbarb Seekers, or most likely Hellstriders. I love the models, and plan to paint up a full 20 still for my collection, but feel they will be pushed aside for the coming months at the very least unless I am VERY wrong about the meta and the new edition. Time will either prove me a fool, or vindicate these feelings. I do hope I am the fool.

Blissbarb Archers are not as bad as I thought. I will admit; I was playing them wrong. I committed them alone to an objective or area and they died without support while doing very little. I have now been using them in the middle of my battlelines usually with the Painbringers on either flank, and the Twinsouls ahead of them. Did you know the Lord of Pains ability is not limited to melee attacks? I didn't. But when I learnt that these guys got a whole new lease on life. They are my rear line, but still in the centre of the board. Shooting, moving, Unleashing Hell if anyone commits to trying to remove my Painbringers? Yes to all please. I am very happy with them as of late, and found something for my Lord of Pain to do too. All in all, they may be a few points too many, but I am happy to pay their cost going forward. However they will likely never be more than 11 or even a second unit. The placement required of them in my experience is exact, and the abilities only support one smaller unit. They are solid, but not something I will likely add more of when my list updates.

Wheels of Excruciation are AMAZING. Let me be clear, that I hated Endless Spells when they came out. Thought they were garbage and anyone playing them was bad. My tune has totally changed this edition. Moving them more just makes them actually good. That said I do believe you can likely switch the Wheels to something like a Pendulum if you need to save points. You'd lost 4" of movement, but the 2+ for at least 1 Mortal Wound is what's important. The Endless Spells are IMO how we generate a ton of Depravity this edition, and Wheels does it well, but there are other options if the 100 points is too steep for you (and I agree it is steep, but I don't mind paying it so far.)

Speaking of Depravity, yeah its good. Like really good. Easy to gather, and wonderful to spend. There is no a reason a well crafted Hedonites list is not summoning a 12 cost in turns 2 and 3 every game, and likely turn 4 (dependent on how much of the game you've already won). I won't lie; I have not been experimenting with Summoning. Its a Keeper on turn 2, a Keeper or 30 Daemonettes on turn 3 (matchup/board state dependent) and 20+ Daemonettes on turn 4 every game. It isn't exciting, but it works very very well. Summoning might be too strong, which is sad because I feel like it'll keep our points higher than they should be for many units, and especially keep the daemonic parts of our codex with no play outside of the summoning. I will try out Fiends and Seekers at some point (maybe even some Heralds) I promise, but Daemonettes and Keepers are the mainstay of our Summoning backbone I feel. They just work. Every time.

So for me I feel the list has a solid base, and I really am excited to do some swaps. Sigvald for Dexcessa? Slickblades for Hellstriders? Wheels for Pendelum? Those are my initial thoughts on changes if I were to change. What about you guys and gals? I know not everyone has the time to play like I do. Is there something you'd like me to try for my next list? A unit you really want me to summon in so I can see how it fits into the new edition? I am happy to try out some popular choices for sure. I will likely be crafting a new list for the next ten games before the weekend starts, so I am happy to take some suggestions for sure. As a community we can really work together to find the best (and worst) Hedonites has to offer, so let me know.

Hopefully this has been an interesting read for you all. I will repeat my mantra of the new edition. The changes are A LOT bigger than they appear on paper, so try out as much as you can before writing something off (Except Slaangors) and see how it plays on the table differently than you thought it would on paper. It isn't all sunshine, but there are rays of it out there for us to grab hold of I assure you.
 

I love reading these because I can’t get many games in so thanks! Why is going first so important and what plays do you usually make first turn? I’d like to see how Dex and syn fit in your lists. Is shooting the biggest hurdle to overcome?

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1 minute ago, Nagashfan said:

I love reading these because I can’t get many games in so thanks! Why is going first so important and what plays do you usually make first turn? I’d like to see how Dex and syn fit in your lists. Is shooting the biggest hurdle to overcome?

Shooting isn’t a huge hurdle thus far, but does kill my Shardspeaker more than I like. She’s actually important to me, but dies easy to a swift breeze against any competent shooting list. As such I really dislike shooting more than it’s effecting me.

For me first turn is all about control. Take the rear centre of the board and make them decide between taking a Twinsouls charge, or having to commit into me to hold me back. Basically I throw out a Wheels, stack some DP and then take the board away. Their options become limited. They either have to crash into my Battlelines to stop me taking their half of the board, and thus play into my plan where I can shoot them and flank their heroes with ease (Sigvald on the flanks, the Slickblades and usually a summoned Keeper do serious work if they get loose in the side/back of their army. The other choice is they give me space, likely get charged and I take even more of the board. I don’t want to say it’s an easy win, as that’s not true, but going first allows me to control the tempo against most lists (maybe less so against shooting heavy lists) which is exactly what I feel Slaanesh wants to do this edition to stay ahead. 

And as to the lists Dexcessa is 100% coming, and I’m curious about Synessa. She seems… awkward. But not terrible. I don’t foresee a list where I want both though. One 200+ Hero seems about the most I feel comfortable committing as the core of the list really does need some bodies to allow us to hold out until summoning kicks in. But we will see how future testing plays out. I could be totally wrong and someone else might unlock the key to “The” Slaanesh list. 

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