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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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4 minutes ago, blubearbare said:

What r people typically summoning in with there depravity points. Should I be focusing on 30 demonettes and KoS?

 

If you didn’t bring an enrapturess then summon her near your opponents wizards. Also depending on what you are facing against. Need bodies? Then daemonettes. Need another hero to fight? An exalted chariot will do work grinding away. 

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39 minutes ago, blubearbare said:

What r people typically summoning in with there depravity points. Should I be focusing on 30 demonettes and KoS?

 

I usually find I end up summoning heroes that have died recently. Other than that it's been Seekers to grab objectives or Fiends/Daemonettes for some extra punch. 

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44 minutes ago, blubearbare said:

What r people typically summoning in with there depravity points. Should I be focusing on 30 demonettes and KoS?

 

Always best to summon heroes if possible as they pay for themselves with depravity. If you are godseekers with cogs it’s all good as you can charge immediately and get affect. 

If you don’t have cogs or seekers and will struggle for a 9in charge, might be better with enraptures who can immediately contribute in shooting phase.  

Remember if summoning near the fane cheaper Simmons are better as you save more. For example, summoning 3 x enrapturess will give you back 3d3 depravity, where 2 exalted chariots will give you back 2d3. 

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I wonder if GW might one day modify depravity to only allow non-leader units to be summoned - right now the way the army is setup you almost don't "need" any troops. Depravity already has many people wanting to max out 6 leaders and powerful ones like Keepers; and then use the depravity to summon more leaders for more depravity potential. 

 

Granted that viewpoint assumes you're focusing the build around depravity points and there are other ways to run the army; it just seems to be one of the more powerful approaches to running the army. I wonder if Depravity was made too leader focused like this to encourage model sales when pretty much all the new kits were leaders - potentially a bit of overcompensation on GW's part since the new heroes are awesome sculpts and would certainly have sold in good numbers without pushing them through depravity. 

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6 hours ago, Overread said:

I wonder if GW might one day modify depravity to only allow non-leader units to be summoned - right now the way the army is setup you almost don't "need" any troops. Depravity already has many people wanting to max out 6 leaders and powerful ones like Keepers; and then use the depravity to summon more leaders for more depravity potential. 

 

Granted that viewpoint assumes you're focusing the build around depravity points and there are other ways to run the army; it just seems to be one of the more powerful approaches to running the army. I wonder if Depravity was made too leader focused like this to encourage model sales when pretty much all the new kits were leaders - potentially a bit of overcompensation on GW's part since the new heroes are awesome sculpts and would certainly have sold in good numbers without pushing them through depravity. 

It's certainly an interesting question. I think, out of everything we have, depravity is the one that I've heard most people complain about. I think the issue they have had is that it's so easy to summon big things - and I agree, it is very easy to summon more KoSs which can make even more depravity. Depravity was something I thought was going to be nerfed in our battletome, but all things considered, it feels much much stronger now.   

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6 hours ago, Overread said:

I wonder if GW might one day modify depravity to only allow non-leader units to be summoned - right now the way the army is setup you almost don't "need" any troops. Depravity already has many people wanting to max out 6 leaders and powerful ones like Keepers; and then use the depravity to summon more leaders for more depravity potential. 

 

Granted that viewpoint assumes you're focusing the build around depravity points and there are other ways to run the army; it just seems to be one of the more powerful approaches to running the army. I wonder if Depravity was made too leader focused like this to encourage model sales when pretty much all the new kits were leaders - potentially a bit of overcompensation on GW's part since the new heroes are awesome sculpts and would certainly have sold in good numbers without pushing them through depravity. 

First point yes, could very well be. The inclusion of mortal wounds removed a counter from the ability but it’s also been tested quite some time through the ghb so I don’t believe this comes as a surprise. 

I just think he designed a hero focussed faction with Slaanesh. They replaced the most outdated sculpts with the keeper and fiends and added two heroes one of which is unique. Looking at every other chaos god faction this is perfectly normal. They all have a greater daemon and a unique version, at least one smaller unique model and some support characters. Slaanesh now matches that and they needed new sculpts to make it happen. (And even then I reckon it was also a case of a designer thinking what would happen if a ascended mortal married a herald? 🤔

so no, the second point feels way too conspiracy theory to me. Because like you said the kits would have sold anyway and that extra hero model would have been replaced with something else (likely fiends). Also double greater daemon lists happened after all 3 book drops as far as I’m aware so even that would point to the keeper selling well.

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There is a thing in sports called Game state, usually it refers to score affects. The team that has scored has a higher chance to score the next goal. 

If you have looked for battle reports there are lots of games where the HoS player was too aggressive, got dbl turned and never had a chance to summon reinforcements. This is especially true against factions with retreat and charge or long pile-in rules. 

At the moment we are seeing a lot of swingy results because the book is new and people aren't exactly sure how best to manage the threats. Take LoN for example once people learned to manage gravesites a lot changed. 

I think Slaanesh will be the last straw that brings shooting back into the meta, as you can't leave our heroes in the back field as spawning locus, and you need the bracket the KoS. I think a lot of the lists people are complaining about are exploiting a gap in the meta rather than being exceptionally good at the game.

 

 

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@Enoby that is a very nice conversion indeed. I was looking to convert hellstriders out of something but i never looked into the pre-aos elves range. These guys on elks might just be what i need - they're much more nimble and fit the theme better than bulky "marauder"-type dudes.

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1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

There is a thing in sports called Game state, usually it refers to score affects. The team that has scored has a higher chance to score the next goal. 

If you have looked for battle reports there are lots of games where the HoS player was too aggressive, got dbl turned and never had a chance to summon reinforcements. This is especially true against factions with retreat and charge or long pile-in rules. 

At the moment we are seeing a lot of swingy results because the book is new and people aren't exactly sure how best to manage the threats. Take LoN for example once people learned to manage gravesites a lot changed. 

I think Slaanesh will be the last straw that brings shooting back into the meta, as you can't leave our heroes in the back field as spawning locus, and you need the bracket the KoS. I think a lot of the lists people are complaining about are exploiting a gap in the meta rather than being exceptionally good at the game.

 

 

It brings up an interesting point - if the double turn goes in the next GHB (they were asking about keeping it in the survey so it's on the table to go) we become much stronger as we are very weak to a double turn as it gives two chances to clear off our heroes before a summon. 

I do wonder, if shooting comes back, if we'll see a use for seekers as they can get nearly anywhere unless the shooting unit is well and truly blocked in. 

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8 hours ago, Enoby said:

For something a little different, here's a narrative army I've been working on :)

 

Try to find the novella Hour of Shadows (... good lord I hope I remembered the correct title).  It was from back in 8th edition specifically the magic supplement that everyone freaked out about.  Storm of Magic? 

I keep mentioning it only cause I quite liked the story.  One of the pools of power in a glade in Athel Loren was a Keeper who animates and is basically a cross of a Treeman and Keeper.  Might be worth a conversion attempt if you didn't want to buy 3 Keepers at full price as Treelords are much cheaper? :)

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On 5/8/2019 at 4:24 PM, CB42 said:

 

The list:

  • Godseekers Allegiance
  • Keeper of Secrets (General, Thrill Seeker, Doppelganger Cloak) (360)
  • The Contorted Epitome (Sword of Judgment) (200)
  • 20 x Seekers (480)
  • Depraved Drove Battalion (150)
  • Great Bray Shaman (100)
  • 30 x Bestigors (300)
  • 40 x Ungors (200)
  • 10 x Ungors (60)
  • 10 x Ungors (60)
  • Chronomantic Cogs (60)
  • Prismatic Palisades (30)

Sideboard:

  • 30 Daemonettes
  • 2 Infernal Enrapturesses

 

 

On 5/8/2019 at 4:45 PM, SwampHeart said:

You're speaking my language here - I love the list and I'm excited to see how it works out. I think it takes hue advantage of the speed of HoS and gives you a lot of firepower. My only concern is if you don't do enough damage with that first haymaker you're going to get absolutely pummeled in return. 

 

So I took this list to the Bay Area Open, and I ended up going 4-1 and placing 3rd (out of 20)! I switched to Godseekers so that I could take Thrill Seeker on my Keeper for the turn 1 charge on maps where we start 24" apart without needing to take Thermalrider Cloak, because I felt like I needed Doppelganger Cloak for the Gristlegore FEC matchup (and I was right!), and I felt like I wanted the Sword of Judgment because it's super broken good on the Epitome with the Fane (and it won me 2 matchups single handedly!).

Game 1: Victory on Shifting Objectives versus Feast Day Flesh Eater Courts (2 archregents, bunch of flayers, 50 ghouls, some courtiers, one terrorgheist with an Ethereal Amulet). I gave him first turn, he didn't screen properly, and then my Epitome with the Sword of Judgment took a wound from the Fane, got reroll all hits, and then went up to his Terrorgheist and I rolled 9 dice, rerolling all dice that were not 6s. I ended up with 4 6s and dealt 15 mortal wounds to his terrorgheist, killing it instantly and ignoring its Ethereal nature. Meanwhile, I used my 40 Ungors to hold one side, my 30 Bestigors went into his Flayers and 20 of his ghouls (wiping the ghouls and tying up the flayers) and my Keeper + 20 Seekers killed 30 ghouls and a bunch more flayers. I ended up summoning 30 Daemonettes and controlled 2/3 of the board, and he conceded at the end of round 3 when he had 3 models left.

Game 2: Victory on Border War versus Invaders Slaanesh (2 bladebringers on exalted, keeper, enrapturess, epitome, 2 x 30 Daemonettes, 1 x 5 Helstriders). His list has a lot more depravity generation and CP than mine (for more fight twice shenanigans), but my list is a lot more maneuverable and fast. He played for the turn 1/2 double turn so that he could cross the field and charge me rather than letting me charge him, but then I got priority turn 2 and alpha striked him. I managed to kill his keeper with my epitome (sword of judgment rerolling hits) before his keeper could act, my 20 Seekers and 40 Ungors killed his 30 Daemonettes and one of his Bladebringers, but his screening meant that my Bestigors only killed 5 Helstriders before getting killed in turn. He resummoned his Keeper but I was able to use my Seekers to come kill his daemonettes after I'd already secured 3 of the 4 objectives, and my keeper killed his new keeper. He conceded at the end of round 3, but we exchanged contact information to continue to chat about Slaanesh going forward. He ended up placing 4th in the tournament.

Game 3: Loss on Starstrike versus Fyreslayers (30 HG berzerkers, 15 HG berzerkers, 4 buffing heroes, 1 grimwrath berzerker, and some vulkites). I tried to alpha strike him, failed (my seekers and keeper killed his 15 HG berzerker unit but my bestigors only killed 6 HG berzerkers off the big unit), but it ended up not mattering - the first objective landed in the center of the field next to his 30 berzerker death star, and then my objective landed 12 inches from that, so even if I still had all my units and tried to kite him, he could just camp on the two objectives in the center of the board next to his scary unit. He ended up winning the tournament, so I don't mind losing to him too much.

Game 4: Victory on Battle for the Pass versus Melee Stormcast (2 x 20 Sequitors, 1 x 10 Evocators, 1 x 5 Liberators, Gavriel Surecharge, Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger, Meteor, buff heroes). He dropped his meteor into my lines, buffed up one unit of Sequitors and dropped his Evocators into my screen, and even though I guaranteed that my keeper fought them twice before they got to attack, my keeper mostly whiffed and his 6 surviving Evocators killed my Keeper. Then I sent in my Bestigors and killed all 20 of his unbuffed Sequitors before any of them could attack, used my Seekers to kill his Evocators and Gavriel Surecharge, and then tied up his buffed up Sequitors so that they couldn't completely pile in in one direction - half of them had to head towards my Seekers and half had to head towards my Bestigors. Then my Bestigors retreated onto his backline objective and I summoned 30 Daemonettes to hold the left side of the field while 40 Ungors held my back line and he was left with one single objective for his tied up 20 Sequitors. He said the game was probably over and was ready to concede end of round 2, then conceded for real at the end of round 3.

Game 5: Victory on Total Commitment versus Gristlegore Flesh Eater Courts (2 ghoul kings on terrorgheists - one with gryph feather charm and one with something else, 2 archregents, 3 x 10 ghouls in ghoul patrol, one ghoul courtier, Cogs). This game was super close. He knew exactly what I wanted to do and he deployed basically at his back line. I gave him first turn and he backed even further up onto his two objectives, but I'd screened out his summoning, so he chose not to summon. He split his terrorgheists across the right and left sides, but both archregents were next to his general fight-first terrorgheist on my right side. I spent one round moving up 6 inches so that I could charge next turn but he couldn't charge me with anything other than his terrorgheist into my Ungor screen. Turn 2, I get the double turn, and I alpha strike him. My bestigors kill 18 of his 2 x 10 ghouls on the left and bring his terrorgheist down to 1 hp (SO CLOSE to wiping all his ghouls and his monster), and my Keeper locus'd his terrorgheist and activated doppelganger cloak. My Seekers fighting twice take 5 wounds off his general and kill his 10 man squad of ghouls and brings one of his archregents down to 1 wound, and my Epitome kills that archregent. He keeps trying to fight with anyone other than his terrorgheist - after all, if I fight first, my doppelganger cloak will be wasted, and he can Feeding Frenzy and almost certainly kill my Keeper. If he fights first, he HAS to attack my Seekers with his terrorgheist, and that means that he might get killed by my Keeper fighting twice. We end up in an activation war where I end up spending a CP to activate my Epitome a second time without attacking (was within 3" of the second archregent even if I was blocked from piling in), and that forced him to activate his terrorgheist before my Keeper of Secrets. He kills 18 Seekers, I kill his general Terrorgheist, then I roll a 1 on battleshock for the Seekers and get 3 back. From this point on, I screen out his summoning so he can't take any objectives on the right side of the board, he wins the left side of the board, and I have a small advantage. He tries to secure the win by summoning 3 flayers 9" away from my objective riiiiiight in between the radius of 2 screening units (I'd left a small gap and he took full advantage of it) and he made the 9" charge onto the objective, but I'd summoned 10 daemonettes to reinforce the point, and he never actually got control of the objective from me. Meanwhile, my 2 surviving seekers after killing his archregent went all the way across the board and took my objective back on the left side. At that point, there was no way for him to mathematically come back, and he conceded halfway through turn 5.

Overall, I'm super happy with my decisions with my list and my artifacts. I played poorly in the game I lost versus Fyreslayers, and I've now learned that I basically have no way of killing 30 Hearthguard Berzerkers, but I'm definitely happy with placing 3rd in the tournament, losing only to the winner of the tournament!

Edited by CB42
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14 hours ago, CB42 said:

I wanted the Sword of Judgment because it's super broken good on the Epitome with the Fane (and it won me 2 matchups single handedly!).

Any chance of a few more details, I've yet to get mine on the table but the SoJ stands out with all the attacks. Did you play it aggressive up in their face ? I get worried about the low save vs normal wounds.

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4 minutes ago, Sobakaa said:

On the sword of judgement - how does it interact with exploding 6's if at all?

 

From the Core Rules Designers' Commentary:

Quote

Q: Sometimes a dice roll will trigger an effect. For example, a weapon might have a rule that says a hit roll of 6 causes two hits on the target instead of 1. What happens if another effect applies to the same roll? For example, the weapon from the previous example might have a rule that says it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 and the attack sequence ends – would I get to inflict two hits that each inflicted D6 mortal wounds?

A: When a dice roll triggers more than one effect, each effect is triggered once. For this example, this means that the hit roll would cause two hits, but only one of the hits would inflict D6 mortal wounds (you would carry out the rest of the attack procedure for the other hit normally).

 

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53 minutes ago, Floody said:

Any chance of a few more details, I've yet to get mine on the table but the SoJ stands out with all the attacks. Did you play it aggressive up in their face ? I get worried about the low save vs normal wounds.

I run Chronomantic Cogs and Godseekers, so with the Epitome’s base 12 inch move, that means that you’re looking at a move and charge of 17” plus 2d6. So the way I use the Epitome with the Sword is that I deploy the Epitome within 6” of my Fane, take the reroll hits on the Epitome, cast Cogs with my Great Bray shaman from outside unbind range, then move my Epitome up to kill an unscreened monster or hero if possible. If monsters and heroes are screened, I instead take the wound on my Keeper for the rerolls and move my Keeper up with my Seekers and run my Epitome to 5” away from someone I want to use the Locus and fascination on without getting into combat. I try not to have my Epitome in combat with anything other than heroes and monsters.

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1 hour ago, CB42 said:

I run Chronomantic Cogs and Godseekers, so with the Epitome’s base 12 inch move, that means that you’re looking at a move and charge of 17” plus 2d6. So the way I use the Epitome with the Sword is that I deploy the Epitome within 6” of my Fane, take the reroll hits on the Epitome, cast Cogs with my Great Bray shaman from outside unbind range, then move my Epitome up to kill an unscreened monster or hero if possible. If monsters and heroes are screened, I instead take the wound on my Keeper for the rerolls and move my Keeper up with my Seekers and run my Epitome to 5” away from someone I want to use the Locus and fascination on without getting into combat. I try not to have my Epitome in combat with anything other than heroes and monsters.

Why not combine SoJ (which activates on a 6+) with Icon of Infinite Excess from Invaders? If there's no malus to hits, SoJ activates on 1/3rd of the dice for a turn, perfect for an Alpha Strike. 

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1 hour ago, Rentar said:

Why not combine SoJ (which activates on a 6+) with Icon of Infinite Excess from Invaders? If there's no malus to hits, SoJ activates on 1/3rd of the dice for a turn, perfect for an Alpha Strike. 

Because SoJ already does enough work (I 100-0’d a Keeper and a Terrorgheist) and I needed Doppelgänger Cloak for the Gristlegore FEC matchup. And I needed to be Godseekers for Thrill Seekers for the turn 1 charge.

Look, you can rebuild the entire army around buffing the SoJ gimmick, but I like having it as an option rather than my main way of winning. For winning tournaments, it helps against monster heavy lists (and won me those matchups), but is a useless gimmick against enemies that screen properly or don’t use heroes on the front lines (shootcast, Skaven, eel spam, etc)

Edited by CB42
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20 hours ago, CB42 said:

Overall, I'm super happy with my decisions with my list and my artifacts. I played poorly in the game I lost versus Fyreslayers, and I've now learned that I basically have no way of killing 30 Hearthguard Berzerkers, but I'm definitely happy with placing 3rd in the tournament, losing only to the winner of the tournament!

How'd Palisade play out for you? I meant to ask yesterday, I've been thinking of including it in my list to act as a FS stall tactic. 

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37 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

How'd Palisade play out for you? I meant to ask yesterday, I've been thinking of including it in my list to act as a FS stall tactic. 

It’s complete garbage except for the Fyreslayers matchup, where it (or any wall or movement reduction endless spell) is good for limiting Hearthguard mobility. I’d drop it in an instant, though.

edit: I was getting on the subway before. To expand: I don’t find it that useful because, with a casting value of 5, it’s super easy for anyone with access to a spellcaster to dispel. So while I might want it against, say, Skaven on Duality of Death to mitigate their shooting, their ease of dispelling it means it ends up doing nothing for me.

Had I played the FS matchup better, and had the objectives not dropped right on top of his HG berzerkers, I would have been able to keep placing it right in his path and it probably could have slowed him down by an additional turn. Add in moving some of my units of Ungors 3” away from his Hearthguard, and I think I could’ve won... again, had the objectives dropped in reasonable places and had I not tried to alpha strike him. So I’m going to keep it in my list for now - I like it more than soulsnare shackles because FS can ignore shackles on a 4+ but they can’t ignore the model placement of an impassable wall.

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1 hour ago, CB42 said:

It’s complete garbage except for the Fyreslayers matchup, where it (or any wall or movement reduction endless spell) is good for limiting Hearthguard mobility. I’d drop it in an instant, though.

Yeah I'd literally be looking at taking it specifically for the FS matchup which is the only 'high tier' list I feel like I don't have a solid answer to. 

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