AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

33 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said:

It really feels like we were designed during the development of 3rd ed, rather than once it was fully completed.

Yeah, I think we were a bit half and half with designs. Like they knew the basics of 3e, but not the specifics and so we ended up with some rules that aren't super compatible. At least the +2 save does protect against rend.

---

I'd like to think that one of the reasons our points didn't go up (according to rumours) was because of the survey. Certainly, I can imagine we were partially pointed with 3e in mind, but DoK and LRLs may well have been too and by the same rumours they've got a points bump. That's not to say the survey definitely changed anything, but I'd like to think that they erred on the side of not increasing our points because of it

Edited June 15, 2021 by Enoby

[Feorag]

So had a bit of a test game of 3.0 last night.

Played against Seraphon, without Kroak.

I took second turn, both KOS + Sigvald went off the board.

Seraphon t1

He couldn't get LOS to dex with Bastilodon and failed to cast comets call. 

Did a couple of MW to archers + daemonettes nothing major and killed a fiend with chameleon shooting. 

3 DP

 

Slaanesh t1

get the +1 to hit spell on the Oracle on Trog.

Sigvald and KOS come on Sigvald is about 12" from the Slaan and KOS is 9" from the Bastilodon unfortunately i couldn't squeeze them in next to each other! 

Dex gets to within 7" of the large unit of skinks with a couple of buffs on them.

Fiends get pretty close to a unit of 20 skinks.

Blissbarbs and daemonettes go on to home objectives with Syn near the damaged unit of Blissbarbs. 

both Blissbarbs take pot shots at trog - 4 wounds

Syn uses staff on bastilodon 3 wounds.

Get the charge with KOS against Bastilodon - needed the reroll

Roll double 6 for sigvald - moved him into the slaan, also had the temple guard and astrolith in combat with him too, suicidal maybe but a chance to wipe the slaan is needed! 

Fiends charge unit of skinks - they flee  and I fail my charge.

Dex charges the unit of 30 skinks gets peppered with shots and takes 4 wounds.

 

KOS -  Titanic duel - Locus succeeds...

Bastilodon Titanic Duel

Dex - Roar - Locus fails.... could have done without that

 

Sigvald v slaan puts 8 attacks on slaan and 4 on Saurus guard both units removed.

Dex v skinks  - 12 wounds through on the skinks - 

Bastilodon v KOS - 5 wounds on keeper

KOS v Basti -  4 wounds on bastilodon - both claws missed or failed to wound. 7 wounds on bastilodon total

Skinks v Dex - All out defence used - 5 more wounds on dex

Astrolith v Sig -  0 wounds suffered! 

5 more dp

Battleshock - inspiring on skinks used.

Priority roll - I get priority 

Take the double

Hero - Dex heals 2

KOS casts PoD 4 wounds back

Mirror dispelled.

Pavane 2 wounds on troglodon.

retreat with Dex

killed bastilodon with Syn shooting.

Keeper fails charge into skinks who retreated.

Fiends - get into unit of skinks

Dex gets into skinks - unleash hell used  1 wound through to dex.

Dex finishes off the skinks 

Astro does a wound to sigvald who killed him in return.

Opponent just called it there as the dice were really not going his way.

Overall interesting and with the 18" gap between armies just makes our stupidly fast stuff just really hard to avoid. 

probably wasn't the best showcase of the 3.0 rules but will be playing his list with my beasts soon so hopefully it goes on a bit longer! 

 

Spoiler

 

Dexcessa , Talon of Slaanesh [280pts]

Keeper of Secrets [340pts]: 0. Feverish Anticipation, 0. Oil of Exultation, 2. Progeny of Damnation, General, Sinistrous Hand

Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh [260pts]

Synessa, Voice of Slaanesh [260pts]

+ Battleline +

Blissbarb Archers [160pts]: 11 Blissbarb Archers

Blissbarb Archers [160pts]: 11 Blissbarb Archers

Daemonettes [110pts]: 10 Daemonettes

+ Other +

Fiends [360pts]: 2x 3 Fiends, Blissbringer

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Slaanesh
. . Invaders Host: Lurid Haze

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Mesmerising Mirror [60pts]

++ Total: [1990]

all in one drop Bat apart from Dex

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Starborne
Slann Starmaster (260)
Skink Starseer (140)
Skink Oracle on Troglodon (220)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
30 x Skinks (180)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
20 x Skinks (120)
- Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs
10 x Saurus Warriors (90)
- Clubs
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
10 x Chameleon Skinks (180)
Bastiladon (220)
Stegadon (240)
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128

 

[Enoby]

Thanks for the write up @Feorag - seems things went well for you, and it will probably go better with the likely points increase. 

I've also got a few things to add to the AoS 3 buffs and nerfs post:

New Artefacts

There are three new artefacts which can (in addition to battletome artefacts) be bought for an enhancement. One of these really looks great to me, and that's the 5+ ward save. I think this cements Invaders as a great choice as, while Rod of Misrule is brilliant, the other artefacts are just okay. However, this ward on a keeper gives it some much needed mortal wound protection and some even more needed swingy damage protection; considering it can heal 2d6/3+2d3+1d3 a round, it's hard to keep down without taking it out in one blow. For a small buff, if this artefact becomes popular, Sigvald is one of the best counters to it and he's very easy to slot in a list. 

Overall opinion: Good

New spells

For now, we're unsure if unique casters can select from the spell lore. Regardless of how it pans out in the FAQ, Glutos losing mortal spell lore isn't the end of the world, but it would be disappointing. Other than that though, we have access to more spells which is great as 70% of Slaanesh spells are filler. The Contorted Epitome becomes much more valuable being able to give fly to a Keeper or Slickblades rather than having to rely on the Keeper's own spell that has no bonus to cast and can only be cast on itself. 

It also helps protect us from shooting with Ghost-Mist available. One question would be whether we could select a spell upon being summoned; I'm guessing 'no'.  

Flaming weapon is nice for us as we have two casters with many low quality attacks on a single weapon, which can be turned into high quality attacks easily: 9 on the epitome and 9-10 on the bladebringer. 

Metamorphisis is also nice to cast on the Bladebringer, allowing it to become a monster and stomp for d3 MW as well as do 2d3 (or d6+d3) on a charge. 

One of the key things is we have a double cast rerolling caster that's not unique and is kind of cheap ish. 

Overall opinion: Average to good 

---

I'm also going to add in a winners and losers of each of our in-book units, assuming no points changes

[Apinecone]

5 minutes ago, Enoby said:

For now, we're unsure if unique casters can select from the spell lore. Regardless of how it pans out in the FAQ, Glutos losing mortal spell lore isn't the end of the world, but it would be disappointing. Other than that though, we have access to more spells which is great as 70% of Slaanesh spells are filler. The Contorted Epitome becomes much more valuable being able to give fly to a Keeper or Slickblades rather than having to rely on the Keeper's own spell that has no bonus to cast and can only be cast on itself. 

It also helps protect us from shooting with Ghost-Mist available. One question would be whether we could select a spell upon being summoned; I'm guessing 'no'. 

I have been avoiding this discussion on the general threads as I don't really want to be dragged into "discourse" but unique characters will be able to take spell lores.  Not to say an faq isn't needed because of rule 27.3.1 but 27.3.4/5 are worded differently from other enhancements.  You don't give a wizard a spell lore enhancement, but give your army the effect.  Summoned units will need an faq too, but I lean more to yes/maybe. The main question is does the effect of letting every wizard in your army know 1 spell lore spell only apply at list construction or not?

 

I do like the idea of using the epitome to give a keeper flying, I have been considering epitomes for endless spell control but I was running into the fact a lot of the slaanesh spells are just a little meh.  If we can add spells to summoned units I can see flaming weapon being a good choice for the exalted bladebringer.

Though on a personal note I am still finding list construction hard just now assuming points say about the same.  While not having the battalion saves some points, turn two units of warriors into hellstriders eats up so much of that savings.  Hopefully I will find the balance but it is hard not to look at a bunch of 300ish pt characters and then wonder where the points went.

[EchoHavoc]

I know this isn’t what everyone wants to hear/see but I’d be expecting our points to go up around 5%-15%

[Feorag]

@Enoby totally agree on the your take on artefacts.

5+ ward on keeper is amazing 

I also really rate the Arcane tome, have that on the contorted epitome that gives us a nice 3/2 caster with rerolls! 

Having the magic enhancement too gives all our 2 cast wizards a lot of utility.

Flaming weapons on syl es or exalted chariot would be amazing. 

Metamorphosis on something fast to smash terrain would be great.

Levitate on fiends or slickblade seekers makes them as manoeuvrable as tzeentchian discs! 

 

[Enoby]

Winners and losers in Hedonites of Slaanesh

With the core rules released and, for now, it seeming like we will get no points increases, it's a good chance to look at each individual unit and how they fare. I'm just going to go in the order that the units appear on the app.

The Contorted Epitome: 

Big winner, in my opinion. With our endless spells likely becoming more potent (assuming no massive rewrite) and the (likely) ability to give a KoS fly, this relatively cheap double rerolling caster who is all but immune to MWs is a great utility piece, as well as not being terrible in combat. 

In a likely unintentional reaction, if Kruelboyz ever become an issue, the Epitome can tank their 5+ MWs very well. Being under 10 wounds they also benefit from look out sir.

The buff to mystic shield is also very nice too. 

Overall: Stronger and good

Hellflayer (herald)

They are improved, including by retaining look out sir and having a wider selection of spells and benefitting from heroic actions, but they are still not worth taking over an exalted chariot

Overall: Stronger but poor

Shalaxi Hellbane

They're now easier to get on 2s and 2s and can charge but easier (including being given the ability to fly from two spells). In addition, their role is now more important as heroes are becoming much stronger. However, no matter how good they may be against heroes, their lack of command ability to buff other units and their weaker damage against troops means the Keeper is the better choice all of the time. 

That said, they can get themselves on a 3+ rerolling saves and hits against heroes. Depending on how the meta shapes up, they could see their niche become necissary if any heroes get out of hand. 

Their generic command abilities and hero/monster abilities also give them a hand.  

Overall: Stronger and questionable - worth testing further

Syll'Esske

While the hero abilities do give them a bit of a hand, where they really shine isn't their damage but their command ability. With inspiring presence being limited and the board shrinking, they have a very strong way to prevent bravery. In mortal heavy list, effective battleshock immunity may well be worth 200 points (they're not too bad at combat either).

Their one weakness is that, besides battleshock immunity, they don't bring much else. Their damage is okay (especially when buffed) and their spell is nice (but less useful now that units can use command abilities), but they won't wow you outside of that. 

Overall: Stronger and very good with mortals

Hellstriders

The range on their whips does mean that coherency doesn't matter much to them, and they do have a use of charging into a shooting unit to tie them up. However, their damage and cost is still pretty poor - they act like super fast chaff/suicide units, but they're just so pricey it's hard to justify taking them over a better unit. 

Overall: Kind of stronger (as they have more reasons to charge into shooting units) but still a bit meh

Keeper of Secrets

Probably the unit that benefits most from these changes. The big things that stick out are how good the Keeper's healing is, the 5+ ward artefact, the ability to charge first turn, the ease of getting +1 save, +1 to wound, and +1 to hit, the ability to turn off command abilities or do mortal wounds, and all of this available without a command ability. 

Their one nerf is in their command ability, being that it can't be used on a unit already under the effect of a command ability. This isn't exactly a nerf because it wasn't as if we were stacking loads of command abilities together before, but it does reduce the potential effectiveness. 

With the greater ease of getting fly, they can go over screens with their superior speed. 

To put their healing in perspective, they have 10 bravery so heroic recovery is easy to get, their healing spell casts on a 4, and they just need to kill something to heal. That's a likely 2d3+2d3/6+1d3 a turn if necessary (average 10 healed). 

They're not the ridiculous monsters they were before in 2019, but they are very good as smash monsters. Not only that, they're actually kind of cheap for what they bring and very easy to summon. 

Overall: Stronger and very good

The Masque

For those missing Seeker Cavalcade, this 130 points hero may answer your plight. Their 6" pile in and 4+ ward, as well as available hero abilities means they are a great counter to any nasty shooting we don't want messing up the rest of our army. I'd recommend taking her with any extra points you may have. 

Their damage is nothing to write home about, but if they're just chasing shooters this doesn't matter loads, esp as they still have locus so can keep themselves safe. 

Overall: Stronger and very good

Viceleader

Despite getting access to more spells and hero abilities, I don't think either of them bring enough to make the herald on foot useful. Their old use used to be healing Glutos, but this is no longer necessary with his own hero abilities. Without spell casting buffs and with a meh spell lore (with the new flying spell being too difficult to reliably cast) they're not really great. If you have the spare points, take the Masque

Overall: Weaker relatively and poor

Herald on Seeker Chariot

Same as the Hellflayer, but probably worse. If you have the points, there's likely something better to take, or if you want a chariot hero, then save the points for an exalted one. The hero abilities do help, but again, better things to spend them on. 

Overall: Not significantly stronger and not good

Hellflayer

Besides counting as 2 models for an objective, this hasn't been buffed in any meaningful way. With everything else getting stronger, there's not much going for this chariot unfortunately. 

Overall: Relatively weaker and poor

Herald on Exalted Seeker Chariot

While I still prefer the KoS, if you can't afford one, this herald mixed with Metamorphosis and/or Flaming Weapon, it can really put out some damage. With the ease of getting a once per game +1 to wound, and a very easy +1 to hit CA, they can put out some damage. If you want, you can give them the monster keyword with the Metamorphosis spell so they can put out another source of d3 MWs on the end of a charge. 

The ability to heal is also pretty nice. 

That said, their damage isn't fantastic without these buffs and they're still pretty squishy even with a +1 save. It's difficult to find the space for one, if I'm being honest. If only they had some sort of charge phase ability... 

Overall: Stronger and pretty nice

Fiends

Overall, while I like fiends and the +1 to hit on their attacks will help them be less swingy on their tails and claws, the caps on negatives to hit and wound mean they have less synergy with the rest of the army. In addition, coherency hurts them quite a bit as a unit of 6 won't be able to all get in, but you need to take them in a 6 to take advantage of their musk ability. 

The ability to summon them against monsters is nice though 

Overall: Weaker and niche

Daemonettes

These haven't suffered anywhere near as much from coherency as most armies, and the ability to get +1 to hit (and rerolling 1s if needed form the spell) means they can pump out some damage. With reinforcements not being too important for our army, we can spend those points on a big block of daemonettes. 

They are also able to get a first turn charge, one of the few troops who can, if you decide to give them a 6 to run, their inbuilt reroll charge means they can get a 6" charge rerolling first turn

Overall: Relatively stronger and good

Seekers

While one of the best Slaanesh players in the world really rates these, they are very tricky to use. Being one of the fastest units in the game, they can have the fly spell used on them to seek and destroy any small casters hiding away at the back, or artillery pieces who will cause a hassle. 

The fly spell may well shoot them into relevance. 

Overall: Stronger for a specific task, and in need of testing - likely an anti meta pick

Seeker chariots:

They have counting as 2 for objectives going for them, but other than that I think they're too fragile. They can first turn charge, but they're so squishy that I don't know if it will matter. The one thing you can do is take a single unit and charge it into a big clump to but a load of MWs out for depravity, but I think blissbarbs are the safer choice here. 

Overall: A little bit stronger, but still poor

Infernal enrapturess

They now have the niche of doubling the chance of an enemy miscasting, and they do have a good niche against Lumineth. I wouldn't take one in a starting list, but I would summon one if the opportunity arose. 

Overall: A little bit stronger, but niche and more for summoning 

Lord of Pain

While I don't see them bowling anyone over, they have the benefit of making Twinsouls and Painbringers battleline, and I think this is a good enough reason to take one. Apart from that, they can hold an artefact and have glory hog on them. 

Overall: Stronger by proxy

Glutos Orscollion

He's lost and gained from this new edition, and I think he just about edges out stronger, however there are some key points to watch out for. He may well lose out on the mortal spell lore, which was very nice for battleshock immunity (though I don't think this is intentional, we have to accept the possibility). Also, he no longer benefits from look out sir (though let's be honest, his -1 to hit will usually give him the effect of this anyway). The final nerf is just that debuffs no longer stack, which means he's not as useful with fiends or any other debuffs. 

On the up though, he is even tankier. Now that mystic shield is improved, he can comfortably sit on a 2+ 5++ save. More importantly, he can heal himself. With his +1 bravery, he's sitting on a 10 so he can do this very consistently. This is very nice for keeping him topped up because this used to require a supporting unit.

Depending on what happens with the lifeswarm, we may find another easy way to heal him, making him close to immortal. 

Overall: Mixed but still incredibly strong

Sigvald

I think Sigvald is one of the biggest winners in HoS, mainly because of moment of glory and the seeming increase in ward saves. With always strikes first, access to the KoS CA, access to healing, and access to +1 to wound, he can tear through an opponent no problem. Stick him into something like Teclic or Kroak and take an important chunk of their army. 

Because of his ward save, healing is stronger on him as he effectively heals double wounds. 

It should be noted that Lurid Haze and moment of glory don't combo.

Overall: Stronger and use as a seeker missile

Shardspeaker

Overall, it's kind of a buff as they can counteract moment of glory and in general wounds are harder to add to, but also she can her +1 to wound ability in first turn - with a 6" move and 9" range of the mirror, she can get in range on a run roll of a 3 (but be safe with a 4). This can be very useful if you need to wipe out a unit. Beforehand, she couldn't get her mirror in range first turn. 

Only nerf is her cloak of shadows, but were we really getting her into much comabat to make use of this?

Blissbarb seekers

While unleash hell is a buff for them, I don't think they're strong enough at shooting to be worth the command point unless you're swimming in spare ones. Other than that, a +1 to hit in the shooting phase doesn't stop the same ability in the combat phase, which is good. 

Lack of Seeker Cavalcade, of course, hurts.

Overall: about the same, maybe a little weaker but if you used them before you can continue it 

Slickblade seekers

These have gone through a heavy hit with the loss of seeker cavalcade, but they have benefits too - now they can use their own inspiring presence so they're slightly less damaged by battleshock, and they don't really rely on buffs in the combat phase so they don't take away from our other units. In addition, they do non-spell MWs at a good rate, so will help us against the increased number of high save units. Finally, they can first turn charge easily (free rerolls), and benefit from fly to get to the squishies hiding away. 

Overall: a significant nerf with the loss of a battalion, but still a strong place within the army 

Myrmidesh Painbringers

I think these have received a big buff now that a 3+ rerolling save is easily achieved. Their damage isn't awful but their saves are great, meaning they can be a good target for keeping a battleline unit alive. Importantly, unlike chaos warriors they work well in a unit of 5, so they don't need to worry about coherency and they can cover most of the board. Again, they are also a source of mortal wounds so they can help chip away at high save enemies. With the rumoured points increase of everything else, these may well become more reasonable; going on the high end of an expected 20% points increase, it would be like Painbringers cost 120 AoS2 points, which sounds far more reasonable. 

Importantly, coherency and smaller units means Painbringers won't be assaulted by as many attacks at once, and so can tank for even longer. 

Overall: A buff for them overall and I'm looking forward to using them more 

Symbaresh Twinsouls

With a +1 to hit and no other CAs needed, the twinsouls absolutely murder any units with a 4+ save or worse, and put a dent in 3+ save units. They're no silver bullet to all units as a 2+ save will stop them in their tracks, but they have a strong ability to tank and then spank with their alternating abilities.

With an increase in bonuses to save, they have lost some of their use, but it's not as if units with a poor saves have ceased to exist and if they want to spend a CP to try and save a unit from twinsouls, that's another unit not protected from something else. 

Better yet, unlike other 32mm base units, they can attack in two ranks easily. 

I'd bring no more than a unit of 10, but I'd understand that that unit of 10 will evaporate any normally armoured troop it touches.

Finally, they can first turn charge on a 10, but I wouldn't count on it. 

Overall: Stronger but not a cure all

Blissbarb Archers

I think these have a big buff, not being affected by coherency and not spending CP in the combat phase means they can pump out some really impressive damage. Even going into a hero, 30 of them can put out about 17 damage against a 4+ save, which means goodbye to most monstrous heroes. 

Unleash hell can help them a bit, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd like to experiment with a unit of 20-30.

Overall: Stronger but still pricey

Slaangor fiendbloods

So the phrase "you can't polish a ******" springs to mind here, but it is true that they have been improved. With a +1 to hit they can do some okay damage, and with 2" reach they aren't hurt by coherency, but I'd just rather spend more points on Twinsouls or Painbringers to be honest. 

Maybe if they knocked 40 or 50 off their points, they'd see some sort of use, but I'm hoping for a rewrite. 

Overall: Stronger but... well... it's a Slaangor

Dexcessa

Being a monster and a hero, Dexcessa is a speeding bullet who can take the enemy apart from the back. They don't do a tonne of damage initially, but their goal shouldn't be to rocket into the biggest meanest unit, but instead go hero or flank hunting and pick apart the enemy where they can't really fight back (esp at a -1 to hit) before swooping in to the real fight. Their free command point is really nice to have, mostly just to spend on themselves as a free changable buff, or to spend on a KoS when it uses its CA to make sure it can have that +1 save or +1 to hit. 

The monster and hero abilities mean they can keep going and dish out some pretty nice damage, and they're very cheap for how annoying they can be and how, unlike Sigvald, you can't ignore them by moving away or screening 

Overall: Stronger, very nice to slip in most lists

Synessa

Synessa is a lot harder to parse than their sibling; I wouldn't want to brush them off as bad, but it feels like they're a bit under-designed, or rather they have some really cool concept that don't quite mesh. For example, being able to use a CA anywhere is great, if unit leaders didn't have this anyway. Or having access to the entire spell lore, if they had more than one spell to cast. Or having infinite range on spells, if those spells were worth casting. 

On the other hand, their shooting is good and they're a monster. With Arcane bolt, they can blizt a unit doing 1d3/d6+1d3+1d3 MWs (average 6MWs to average 8MWs) before it gets to attack. 

The one thing they do have going for them is Slothful Stupor on demand, which is a pretty niche spell but can be very useful when the opportunity arises. Possibly worth it with the new cogs, depending on their cost.

Overall: Weaker and difficult to find a place for unfortunately

Hope this all helps  

[Nagashfan]

3 hours ago, Feorag said:

So had a bit of a test game of 3.0 last night.

Played against Seraphon, without Kroak.

I took second turn, both KOS + Sigvald went off the board.

Seraphon t1

He couldn't get LOS to dex with Bastilodon and failed to cast comets call. 

Did a couple of MW to archers + daemonettes nothing major and killed a fiend with chameleon shooting. 

3 DP

 

Slaanesh t1

get the +1 to hit spell on the Oracle on Trog.

Sigvald and KOS come on Sigvald is about 12" from the Slaan and KOS is 9" from the Bastilodon unfortunately i couldn't squeeze them in next to each other! 

Dex gets to within 7" of the large unit of skinks with a couple of buffs on them.

Fiends get pretty close to a unit of 20 skinks.

Blissbarbs and daemonettes go on to home objectives with Syn near the damaged unit of Blissbarbs. 

both Blissbarbs take pot shots at trog - 4 wounds

Syn uses staff on bastilodon 3 wounds.

Get the charge with KOS against Bastilodon - needed the reroll

Roll double 6 for sigvald - moved him into the slaan, also had the temple guard and astrolith in combat with him too, suicidal maybe but a chance to wipe the slaan is needed! 

Fiends charge unit of skinks - they flee  and I fail my charge.

Dex charges the unit of 30 skinks gets peppered with shots and takes 4 wounds.

 

KOS -  Titanic duel - Locus succeeds...

Bastilodon Titanic Duel

Dex - Roar - Locus fails.... could have done without that

 

Sigvald v slaan puts 8 attacks on slaan and 4 on Saurus guard both units removed.

Dex v skinks  - 12 wounds through on the skinks - 

Bastilodon v KOS - 5 wounds on keeper

KOS v Basti -  4 wounds on bastilodon - both claws missed or failed to wound. 7 wounds on bastilodon total

Skinks v Dex - All out defence used - 5 more wounds on dex

Astrolith v Sig -  0 wounds suffered! 

5 more dp

Battleshock - inspiring on skinks used.

Priority roll - I get priority 

Take the double

Hero - Dex heals 2

KOS casts PoD 4 wounds back

Mirror dispelled.

Pavane 2 wounds on troglodon.

retreat with Dex

killed bastilodon with Syn shooting.

Keeper fails charge into skinks who retreated.

Fiends - get into unit of skinks

Dex gets into skinks - unleash hell used  1 wound through to dex.

Dex finishes off the skinks 

Astro does a wound to sigvald who killed him in return.

Opponent just called it there as the dice were really not going his way.

Overall interesting and with the 18" gap between armies just makes our stupidly fast stuff just really hard to avoid. 

probably wasn't the best showcase of the 3.0 rules but will be playing his list with my beasts soon so hopefully it goes on a bit longer! 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dexcessa , Talon of Slaanesh [280pts]

Keeper of Secrets [340pts]: 0. Feverish Anticipation, 0. Oil of Exultation, 2. Progeny of Damnation, General, Sinistrous Hand

Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh [260pts]

Synessa, Voice of Slaanesh [260pts]

+ Battleline +

Blissbarb Archers [160pts]: 11 Blissbarb Archers

Blissbarb Archers [160pts]: 11 Blissbarb Archers

Daemonettes [110pts]: 10 Daemonettes

+ Other +

Fiends [360pts]: 2x 3 Fiends, Blissbringer

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance
. Allegiance: Slaanesh
. . Invaders Host: Lurid Haze

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Mesmerising Mirror [60pts]

++ Total: [1990]

all in one drop Bat apart from Dex

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Starborne
Slann Starmaster (260)
Skink Starseer (140)
Skink Oracle on Troglodon (220)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)
30 x Skinks (180)
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
20 x Skinks (120)
- Boltspitters & Moonstone Clubs
10 x Saurus Warriors (90)
- Clubs
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
10 x Chameleon Skinks (180)
Bastiladon (220)
Stegadon (240)
Bound Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128

 

Thanks for the report! Did you feel the twins were worth their points? Would you sub them out for anything?

[Feorag]

49 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Keeper of Secrets

Their one nerf is in their command ability, being that it can't be used on a unit already under the effect of a command ability. This isn't exactly a nerf because it wasn't as if we were stacking loads of command abilities together before, but it does reduce the potential effectiveness. 

I think the Big nerf we had with the Keeper of Secrets is we can only have 1 unit per combat phase affected by the command ability so double keepers aren't really worth it anymore.

 

36 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Thanks for the report! Did you feel the twins were worth their points? Would you sub them out for anything?

Dex - well worth their points if you can keep Dex alive i can see the bonus attacks just escalating into something stupid! 

Syn - unfortunately not so much. The shooting is a lot better than i expected so good for depravity generation.

I believe they will very much be take one or the other but not both unless you're playing 3k games.

Dex, keeper, contorted, Sigvald would have probably been better! for combat heavy.

 

Tempted to try a really heavy caster list with more spell choices and this list.

Spoiler

Leaders
Synessa the voice of slaanesh (260)
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- Sinistrous Hand
The Contorted Epitome (210)
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (400)

Battleline
10 x Daemonettes (110)
10 x Daemonettes (110)
11 x Blissbarb Archers (160)

Units
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Feorag

[AngryPanda]

On 6/14/2021 at 5:06 PM, Enoby said:

I like this list

Only things to add are whether Lurid Haze is worth it in this list compared to Glory Hog for some extra CP. It doesn't look like anything will benefit massively from a teleport but it may well benefit from a likely two extra CP a turn from Glory Hog (granted one is just an extra inspiring presence). The extra +1 to save is nice, but with mystic shield also being +1 to save and the generic CA existing, I'm not sure if you'll get the necessary CP to use it often. Also means your extra artifact could give the shardspeaker two casts

The other thing is whether you want the Painbringers in two units of 5 instead; the save would have to be shared around, but you'd have more board coverage and depravity, as well as a higher defences from no carry over damage. 

---

Also, while there's contention on whether Glutos gets a spell lore (day 1 FAQ issue I'm sure), I very much like the utility the generic lore gives. Specifically, flying Slickblades or even flying Sigvald (say goodbye to hidden heroes). Good from the Epitome, and if they get all spells then they do some decent damage with Flaming Weapon on their 9 attacks. Moment of Glory (its real name escapes me for some reason), gives them 9 attacks at 3/3/-1/2.

Also, the 5+ ward sage artifact on a KoS is looking very nice...  

Thanks for the feedback! I’m going to experiment with the list once I get the chance; first I’ll need to finish painting my Slaanesh stuff before I jump into the game again. I feel that command points are going to have a much bigger impact on the game, especially since the new cam and abilities are pretty awesome. Units of 2x5 Painbringers will give more depravity, and with the number of CP I generate I think it will be sufficient enough to buff. I’m wrapping my head around all the new rules because of how much utility our army got from the new rules, and it’s a lot to take in. I still really like the idea of 6 fiends infiltrating in from the side of the board to give some early pressure, and with they’re high movement they can quickly flank into the enemy back line or cause some painful disruption. 
 

I agree with the spell lore, flying slickblades and Sigvald are going to be a thing. It’s expensive, but will be pretty funny to see if it’s pulled off, especially if Glutos flies across the map. 

[Elazar The Glorified]

Played a game of 3rd (well more like 2.9) as still some bits not sure on so left out against Maggotkin. We used the Frontal Assault battle plan but skipped the battle tactics as didn't have them to hand. 

 

My list - Lurid Haze Invaders

Keeper of Secrets - Shining Aegis, Slothful Stupor, Oil or Exultation and Feverish Anticipation (General)

Glutos - Judgement of Excess

Sigvald

Dexcessa 

5 Hellstriders with Claw-spears

5 Hellstriders with Claw-spears

10 Blissbarbs

The Dread Pageant

Wheels of Excruciation

Mesmerising Mirror

Didn’t use the new battalions as we're still not 100% if they have a points cost attached (If they don't I'm a little baffled as to why they have optional slots unless you're looking for the one-drop one)

 

My opponent had (roughly) 

Great Unclean One - Bileblade, Doomsday Bell, Sumptuous Pestilence, Grandfather's Blessing (General) 

Festus - Not sure what spell he picked as he only tried for Curse of the Leper off his warscroll

Lord of Afflictions - Rustfang

Gutrot Spume

10 Blightkings

5 Blightkings

30 Plaguebearers

10 Plaguebearers

6 Plague Drones

 

My opponent won the roll-off and picked deployment zones etc.

There was a shattered temple in the very centre of the right flank, some ruins in the centre of his deployment zone and another group of ruins in the left of mine and a mausoleum on the left of centre. My fane went in the middle of my territory, as close to centre as I could go whilst leaving the necessary distance to the centre objective. His tree ended up pretty much midway between the left and centre objectives.

He deployed Gutrot Spume and the smaller Blightking unit in ambush. His 30 Plague bearers did the 3rd edition conga line and deployed in two ranks as wide as they could go across the centre. Festus sat behind them on the left and the Great Unclean one behind them on the right roughly in line with the righthand objective. The Drones, Lord of Affliction were directly across from the left objective and the smaller unit of Plague Bearers went out wide on the left flank. I deployed the Keeper and Dexcessa out on my right flank to counter his Great Unclean One. A unit of Hellstriders sat with then and the other Hellstriders sat in the centre next to the Fane with Sigvald. On the left Glutos, the Blissbarbs and The Dread Pageant lined up ready to claim the lefthand objective.

I could set up 2 units in ambush so Sigvald and The Dread Pageant disappeared into the mists. 

My opponent opted to go second so I started out Battle Round 1. The Nurgle clock thing started at +1 to wound which was key 

 

Battle Round 1

My heroic action was for the Keeper to generate an extra CP. Spell casting didn't work out. Tried to get both Endles Spells off, but both were unbound and I failed to cast Mystic Shield on the Keeper.

The two Hellstrider units went to sit on the Centre and Right objectives. The Keeper and Dexcessa moved up for Dexcessa to go into the flank of Plague Bearers and the Keeper to go into the front to force some irritation for piling in with the new coherency. Glutos and the Blissbarbs moved up to camp on the Left objective. Sigvald came on behind enemy lines on my left and the Dread Pageant snuck up behind the Great Unclean One on the right.

For shooting Blissbarbs put some wounds on the big blob of Blightkings and Hadzu put a wound onto the massive block of Plaguebearers.

The Keeper charged the Plaguebearers (needing a reroll), Dexcessa did the same. The Dread Pageant failed their charge and Sigvald had a rush of blood and went into the Plague Drones, putting All Out Defence up on himself in anticipation of the avalanche coming his way in retaliation. He did well swatting a couple of Drones with his 8 attacks but with all the attacks back from the remainder, my opponent managed to squeeze through just enough wounds to finish Sigvald off.

The Plaguebearers were frustrated as they could only shuffle along to get a few extra models in with the Keeper and Dexcessa only had to fend off two of them. They got a few wounds through on the Keeper. Dexcessa first killed enough that she ended up out of combat and then the Keeper killed quite a few too but my opponent used a Command Point to stop them losing any more to battleshock. The Drones rolled a 1 and got one back. 

At the end of the turn I clocked up 3VP and about 5 Depravity Points. I can't remember what I did for the Monsters, 1 roared to stop the Plaguebearers getting any support and I assume the other Stomped but it was clearly not memorable! 

 

For my heroic action in my opponent's turn I managed to heal 1 or 2 wounds on the Keeper and he popped Finest Hour on his Great Unclean One. Magic fizzled mostly but he did manage to get an Arcane Bolt charged up for the Great Unclean One.

His movement was shenanigans to get the Blightkings blob, Lord of Affliction and the Drones running into range of his tree so they could charge onto the Centre and Left objectives. Gutrot and the smaller Blightkings unit came on in my bottom right lining up to go for my Hellstriders on the Right objective. 

Shooting saw a couple of Blissbarbs die to Death's Heads from the Drones.

Drones and the Lord of Afflictions charged into the Blissbarbs. The blob of Blightkings went into the Hellstriders on the Centre and the Blightkings on the right failed their charge even with a reroll so Gutrot held off and waited for support next turn. The Great Unclean One went into the Keeper of Secrets but couldn't do so without bringing Dexcessa into things with so many large unwieldy bases involved and the remaining Plaguebearers blocking any other avenue. 

Ironically in the excitement of all the big monsters fighting each other we both forgot the monster rules this turn which would have been pivotal and definitely helped me out because he'd have surely roared at Dexcessa and stopped the inevitable Excess of Violence that they benefited from. I can't remember the details but I know the Keeper took the absolute brunt of the Great Unclean one with impact hits, an Arcane Bolt to the face and some awful rolling on their armour save (but some godly rolling on its Shining Aegis). The Plaguebearers continued nipping away at the Keeper too but they were ignored. The Keeper was down to about 3 wounds left (including the extra from the Oil). Dexcessa chipped away at the Great Unclean One and then did so again, taking a couple of wounds as stuff bounced back at it (which was nice for extra Depravity!)

Over on the left, the Drones and Lord of Afflictions obliterated the Blissbarbs but in their eagerness dragged Glutos into things and his lackeys battered the Lord of Affliction down to a single wound I think it was and removed an already wounded Drone. In the Centre, the Blightkings found it difficult to get into the Hellstriders and maintain coherency so against all odds those Hellstriders only lost 5 wounds and kept the Blightkings tied up.

In the battleshock phase everything passed and the Drones continued a run of rolling a 1 every time. Was up to about 14 Depravity at this point. 

My opponent outnumbered me on 2 of the objectives so brought it to 3-3 on VP

 

Roll off for Battle Round two went to me.

 

Battle Round 2

For Heroic Action my Keeper healed a little again. Mesmerising Mirror failed to go off but crucially Wheels of Excruciation did to begin the regular event of grinding back and forth over the Drones. Glutos got off Mystic Shield for +1 save and got his 5+ Ward too. The Keeper charged up an Arcane Bolt which was blasted into the face of the Great Unclean One with little delay. For movement I toyed with pulling Dexcessa out to go and tackle the Blightkings in the centre but decided I'd put my faith in Slaanesh to deliver there and summoned in 30 Daemonettes. The Dread Pageant positioned themselves for an easy charge on the Plaguebearers and to in a position where they could also get the Great Unclean One if I wanted to. The Hellstriders on the Right objective knew their days were numbered when Gutrot and his Blightkings finally reached them but for now they positioned themselves on the objective as to be as irritating as possible with the scenery etc around them for charging and actually getting minis in to attack them when the time inevitably came.

Hadzu continued his great form taking another Plaguebearer off with his shooting.

Dread Pageant charged in clipping Great Unclean One and the Plaguebearers and crucially the Daemonettes made a long enough charge to get plenty of bodies into the combat with the Blightkings and Hellstriders to re-secure that objective 

Lots of Roaring happened with the Keeper and Great Unclean one cancelling each other out and Dexcessa went for Titanic Duel to help whittle down the Great Unclean One. That combat saw a lot of slapping. The Keeper and the Great Unclean one both ending up very nearly dead but not quite actually dead.

Glutos tanked a lot of attacks from the Drones and Lord of Afflictions. He was being whittled down but Mystic Shield cancelled out the Rustfang and he weathered the storm. I was torn on splitting his attacks back but wanted the Lord of Afflictions out of the way and had visions of him sneaking out alive and my opponent rolled a disgusting amount of his ward saves so that I genuinely thought despite throwing everything at him he might somehow survive Painbringer Kayzu managed to get us over the line so it was just Glutos and the Drones (but the objective remained

The Daemonettes struggled to get enough numbers in to deal with the Blightkings, on the right, as well as I'd have liked. 30 into an existing awkward combat is tricky with the coherency change. They went with All Out Attack to try and make the most of their attack. The retaliation from the Blightkings took out about half a dozen Daemonettes and removed the last of the Hellstriders on the Centre objective. Battleshock killed a few more Daemonettes but the numbers on there for me ensured I took back control to clock up another 3VP to go 6-3 ahead.

 

In my opponent's hero phase the healing Heroic Action was used for the Keeper to heal itself again. I think my opponent rolled for an extra Command Point but can't remember for sure. Magic fizzled again with nothing much happening but the Wheels rolled the other way back over the Drones.

Also, I assume it was at this point but can't fully remember, the clock was pushed back to +1 to wound for Nurgle units which continued to hurt!

In the movement phase, Gutrot and his Blightkings moved up ready to charge the Hellstriders on the objective. The Plaguebearers on the left moved round to support the Drones and add numbers near the objective there.

Two 5 man Plaguebearers were summoned in but with placement such as it was across the board they struggled to get anywhere they'd make much impact this turn without some very fortunate charge rolls but in theory they were supporting the Nurgle grab on the central objective even though I think in the end only 2 models made a difference to numbers around the objective.

Charges were failed by Plaguebearers on the left and by the two summoned units in the middle and a reroll was wasted on trying to get them in. By the time my opponent charged the Hellstriders on the right with his Blightkings, I think he was so relieved for something to make the charge that he got his positioning slightly off and didn't have enough room and/or Gutrot didn't roll high enough to get round so he watched on from nearby. 

The titanic clash between Keeper, Great Unclean One and Dexcessa reached its bitter conclusion with the Great Unclean One finally dying under the weight of attacks and The Dread Pageant finished off the last of the horde of Plaguebearers that the Keeper didn't. 

The Blightkings killed off all but the Icon Bearer and Champion in the Hellstriders unit before Battleshock removed the Champion too.

Glutos vs Plague Drones continued on. So many wounds, so many save rolls and so much tankiness on both sides. Glutos was down to only a few wounds now.

Not sure who had control of the central objective but the left and right definitely belonged to my opponent so we went to 6-6 on VP

 

I won the priority roll for the next turn. 

 

Battleround 3

 

Glutos took his Heroic Action to heal 1 wound and Gutrot Spume chose the one that let him have a dispel.

The Wheels went over the Plaguebearers that had pushed up on the left as well as grinding the Drones some more. Still didn't manage to get the mirror off from the Keeper but it did ready an Arcane Bolt for its next charge. Glutos cast Mystic Shield on himself again and then threw Judgement of Excess at the Plaguebearers nearby to keep chipping away at them.

Movement phase saw the Keeper and The Dread Pageant went into Festus and one of the summoned units of 5 Plaguebearers near the central objective. The remaining Hellstrider (the Icon Bearer) retreated from the doomed combat to add an extra number to the central objective, leaving room for Dexcessa to head across and hopefully see to the Blightkings on the right.

Summoning saw another Keeper of Secrets arrive looking to support Glutos who had been holding the left flank all by his lonesome.

Shooting Hadzu chipped a wound off Festus.

Charges, Dexcessa went in to the Blightkings. The Keeper (General) and The Dread Pageant into Festus and the Plaguebearers. The summoned Keeper failed their charge even with a reroll so Glutos was left to continue his endless duel with the Drones.

Dexcessa made short enough work of the 5 Blightkings. Festus was killed by the Dread Pageant and the Keeper finished off the Plaguebearers. Glutos and the Drones continued to batter the hell out of each other to a stalemate. Finally, the Daemonettes, through battleshock and an absolute mountain of 6s on Blighted Weapons were brought down to 5 minis. Enough to give me the numerical advantage alongside The Dread Pageant, Keeper, and remaining Hellstrider to wrestle back the central objective and take the score to 9-6 in my favour.

 

Nurgle Hero phase was quiet. Only Gutrot was left I don't remember what he picked though. Possibly Finest Hour… Glutos healed again and then the wheels ground up some more wounds on Drones and Plaguebearers.

For movement the Plaguebearers on the left decided to play the numbers game and just had their weight to the objective and keep clear of the endless scuffle between Glutos and the Drones. Gutrot moved to make sure he shouldn't fail his charge on Dexcessa and the remaining 5 man unit of Plaguebearers pushed up to add their numbers to the central objective but again kept themselves away from the swirling melee there.

Two new units of 5 Plaguebearers arrived, another in my opponent's territory close to the Dread Pageant and the Centre objective. The other nearby to Dexcessa to support in holding that objective (I got confused and forgot Dexcessa counted for 5 models for Objectives - somewhere I decided as not a behemoth they didn't get that rule - whoops)

Newly summoned Plaguebearers went into The Dread Pageant, which suited me as they were close enough to the General Keeper for it to now activate also but I held off on that one.

Gutrot had also made his charge, and his Clutching Pseudopods removed Dexcessa's Scourge. Gutrot caused some damage and by this point in the game Dexcessa much like Glutos and my General Keeper was also fighting on with just a couple of wounds remaining. When the time came Dexcessa fought back with just their claws and the bonus attacks, rolling 3 sixes to hit they made very short work of Gutrot.

The Blightkings in the centre finished off the Daemonettes but in doing so had fallen into my trap so the General Keeper activated, piled-in around The Dread Pageant towards the Plaguebearers but couldn't do so without hitting the Blightkings so the Keeper managed to put a few more wounds into them to leave them at 2 or 3 strong and so unable to hold the middle objective even with the Plaguebearers supporting.

The Dread Pageant were brutally efficient as ever and got rid of the 5 Plaguebearers that had charged them after Vasillac tanked all of the attacks they threw at him.

Glutos survived against the Drones and that at this point was his only job. Be there to make sure when the Keeper got in next turn the numbers went to me but for this turn the Left objective belonged to Nurgle and with my mistake in the rules so did the Right taking us to 9-9. 

 

My priority roll hot streak continued as we went into... 

Battle Round 4

My Hero Phase, the Keeper (General) healed. The summoned Keeper healed Glutos with Born of Damnation. The Wheels ran over Plaguebearers and Drones again. Judgement of Excess and Arcane Bolt from Glutos caused the final wounds on the Plaguebearers on the Left Objective to remove them. The General Keeper finally succeeded with Mesmerising Mirror and positioned it so that the remaining Blightkings ans two 5 strong units of Plaguebearers would take damage if they looked to move towards the objectives. I tried for Cacophony but failed to cast, had just wanted something to put a couple more wounds out into the dregs left around the Centre objective.

In the movement phase Glutos retreated from the Drones to give the summoned Keeper space to move in ready for the kill. The General Keeper decided that it didn't want to risk a flurry of 6s from the Blightkings so retreated and joined The Dread Pageant and the remaining Hellstrider on the objective to claim if but not get into any combats that could see other units get pulled further into the orbit of the Centre objective. Dexcessa moved as close as possible to the 5 Plaguebearers there to kill them and claim the Right objective that was actually still mine if I'd played the rules right!

I summoned some more Daemonettes but they didn't manage to get into anything or near enough to any objective to be useful so I forgot they were even summoned until writing this down. 

In shooting Hadzu took out another Plaguebearer - marksman extraordinaire!

Charges were made by the summoned Keeper into the Drone and Dexcessa into the Plaguebearers. Both combats were short with the alpha-daemons removing their lesser cousins with contemptuous ease.

All 3 objectives were mine. 12-9

 

My opponent started their turn. There was some Plaguebearer (I think) summoning but after wounds taken from the Mesmerising Mirror for moving stuff up and then charges failing we called the game.

Victory for the Hedonites

 

We never got a double-turn which meant the game stayed really tight throughout. I love these tense games where you can pinpoint the couple of decisions and dice rolls that end up deciding it. Granted if we had full access to the Matched Play rules we'd have had more VP on offer. Made afew mistakes but considering we'd had the rules for 2 hours prior I'll take it! 

Updated Mystic Shield and Arcane Bolt are both really good and as ever I found myself a little disappointed with the Slaanesh spells outside of the Endless Spells.

I think everyone has seen the benefit to us of the changes to Endless Spells. These moving to the Hero Phase is massive and keeping them under my control meant they were aways grinding away where I needed them to and generating Depravity.

Nurgle are probably a good match for Depravity purposes. Lots of wounds and lots of Ward Saves mean you can put loads of damage in without often just deleting units. This meant I always had something in my summoning toolbox to apply to a key point on the battlefield.

I misused Sigvald. It was a tad rash. I kept rewriting my list in preparation to the game and had no idea what army I'd be up against. Most versions of my list didn't have Sigvald and had included a unit of Fiends instead and Daemonettes instead of Hellstriders. I spent tje rest of the game lamenting the absence of Fiends over with Glutos. 

Glutos is an absolute tanking boss. The extra heals and regular availability of +1 save through Mystic Shield and/or Command Abilities really helped him stay in the game well past when he probably ought to have which was pivotal because if the Drones or Lord of Afflictions could have left that flank there's no way I was holding regaining the Centre objective.

Shining Aegis on the Keeper - I absolutely loved it today. I totally appreciate it's completely anecdotal and the statistics don't necessarily support it but without it I don't win that game because the Keeper failed so many armour saves. I think going forwards I'd take Progeny just to get some extra healing for the Keeper that way. Roaring does the heavy lifting that I was hoping for from Slothful Stupor and whilst in other games maybe I'd get more from shutting down the charges I think it will have more utility overall.

I love The Dread Pageant. They have a little bit of everything so contribute more than a 4 mini infantry unit ought to and as long as you're not trying to solo things with them they can fly under the radar.

The Hellstriders might be in an interesting place by the time everyone else gets their points changes and their position becomes a bit clearer. They're not setting the world on fire but fairly durable, superfast Battleline will always have a use I think.

 

Lurid Haze is good but I'm not convinced I'd not go regular Invaders next time. Lurid Haze has the ambush which is nice but ultimately it is trading in cool artefacts and command traits for a 3rd option for +1 save and not really necessary. There's also the generic enhancements to explore further which will be easier without the lock-in from Lurid Haze

 

We look to be in a good place for 3rd edition I think! 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Elazar The Glorified

[Selpharia]

I think the only concern with going heavy on magic is that it feels like an invitation to get Teclis’d. Unless he gets wayyy more expensive I expect to see him even more often, along with the best magic heroes from every faction

[Jaskier]

5 hours ago, EchoHavoc said:

I know this isn’t what everyone wants to hear/see but I’d be expecting our points to go up around 5%-15%

Someone who leaked stuff from the GHB earlier said Slaanesh are untouched. 

@Enoby Great post as always, though regarding your Keeper section I just wanted to point out the wording you used as I'm not sure if it's a mistake or unintentional wording, so I'll just clarify it for anyone still wrapping their heads around the new command rules; a unit can be affected by more than one command at a time, they just can't issue or receive more than one per phase, so for example you can still use Glutos' command ability on himself in the hero phase and then give him +1 save in the combat phase. What specifically hurts the Keeper beyond individual units only being able to issue one command per phase is that the same command ability can't be used more than once per phase, so even with multiple Keepers you'd still only be able to use Excess of Violence once. It definitely reduces their value as a support piece a bit, but now it's back to being a real combat monster again - what a topsy-turvy ride from our first book to now 😅

I'll have some more thoughts on our units a bit later too. 

[LeonBox]

Am I missing something with Glutos: why is it in question if he gains access to a mortal lore spell? One of his warscroll abilities is to switch his spell, so why would they be looking to invalidate that? 

Also I was under the impression that only hit/wound rolls were capped at +1/-1, so why is the Shardspeaker losing out on her +2 to saves? 

Edited June 16, 2021 by LeonBox

[Jaskier]

13 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Am I missing something with Glutos: why is it in question if he gains access to a mortal lore spell? One of his warscroll abilities is to switch his spell, so why would they be looking to invalidate that? 

Also I was under the impression that only hit/wound rolls were capped at +1/-1, so why is the Shardspeaker losing out on her +2 to saves? 

There's a note in the core rules that saves can't be modified past +1, meaning Rend is unaffected but positive save modifiers are hard capped. It's on page 15 at the bottom of the section on saves. I wish this was in effect during my tournament on the weekend so I didn't have to face 2+ save Savage Orruks 😅 Speaking of, I'll do a tournament write-up later too.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Jaskier

[Carnith]

16 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Am I missing something with Glutos: why is it in question if he gains access to a mortal lore spell? One of his warscroll abilities is to switch his spell, so why would they be looking to invalidate that? 

Also I was under the impression that only hit/wound rolls were capped at +1/-1, so why is the Shardspeaker losing out on her +2 to saves? 

Its something to do with unique single characters being unable to receive enhancements, which gaining spells are enhancements. 

[Feorag]

3 hours ago, Carnith said:

Its something to do with unique single characters being unable to receive enhancements, which gaining spells are enhancements. 

Even named characters can take the benefits from spell enhancement or extra spell enhancement.

 

[Jaskier]

It's quite obvious the intent is for named characters to get spell enhancements in the same way generic characters do. There's no reason for that not to be the case. Quick FAQ maybe, but I think most people won't notice or care. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 hours ago, Apinecone said:

I have been avoiding this discussion on the general threads as I don't really want to be dragged into "discourse" but unique characters will be able to take spell lores.  Not to say an faq isn't needed because of rule 27.3.1 but 27.3.4/5 are worded differently from other enhancements.  You don't give a wizard a spell lore enhancement, but give your army the effect.  Summoned units will need an faq too, but I lean more to yes/maybe. The main question is does the effect of letting every wizard in your army know 1 spell lore spell only apply at list construction or not?

To add to this: Named characters previously got spells in AoS 2, and there is definitely at least room to argue that they get them by RAW in AoS 3, so why assume there is a change? At least that's how I will be playing it for now.

[Enoby]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Great post as always, though regarding your Keeper section I just wanted to point out the wording you used as I'm not sure if it's a mistake or unintentional wording, so I'll just clarify it for anyone still wrapping their heads around the new command rules; a unit can be affected by more than one command at a time, they just can't issue or receive more than one per phase

Thanks for clarifying - my wording wasn't super clear

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

What specifically hurts the Keeper beyond individual units only being able to issue one command per phase is that the same command ability can't be used more than once per phase, so even with multiple Keepers you'd still only be able to use Excess of Violence once. It definitely reduces their value as a support piece a bit, but now it's back to being a real combat monster again - what a topsy-turvy ride from our first book to now 😅

I think I quite like where they are now, but you're right that the command ability nerf is quite considerable for multiple keepers. On the bright side, at least it won't end up like 2019 again

[Jaskier]

So I participated in a 2-day GT over the weekend, one that allowed Anvils of Apotheosis (with certain limitations and changes to the points certain upgrades cost.) I felt like trying out my three Soul Grinders after having good success with them at Cancon last year - I've been meaning to see if they fit our new book well with all the indirect changes they've received - as well as Archaon, having just recently gotten the big lad painted up. My list was Syll'Esskan Host with Archaon, a Sorcerer Lord with the Ghyran artifact, 11 Blissbarb Archers, 2x5 Chaos Warriors and 3 Soul Grinders in Daemonsteel Contingent. I knew going in that my list was gonna struggle compared to a more 'typical' Slaanesh list - the other problem is that Archaon lists need to be built around Archaon, the same way Daemonsteel lists need to be built around the Soul Grinders; I knew beforehand that mixing the two together likely wouldn't end well. With that in mind...

Game 1 was Escalation in a grudge match against my friend playing Petrifex Ossiarchs; a few heroes (including an Anvil hero handing out +1 save from the Lead the Defence command ability) 40 Morteks in the shield-corps, 6 Stalkers and 2 Morghasts in a battalion, plus the ever reliable catapult. I knew this mission would be rough for me with my four monsters forced to deploy in the back corner. He took first turn and wiped out my Blissbarbs with the catapult, and failed his charges with his advancing Morghasts and Stalkers. His main blob advanced up the middle while his two small Mortek units took to the flanks. My turn saw me ping quite a few units with shooting and kill one of the two Morghasts, with Archaon hanging back somewhat. My memory is a bit hazy about the turn order but eventually I was able to wipe out one of the flanking Mortek units in one go with a Soul Grinder, and he later made a mistake in charging his central Mortek blob but choosing not to get within 3" of Archaon. This allowed Archaon to fly to the other side objective and wipe it clear, leaving me with two objectives to his one with little way for him to speedily pressure either side. It came down to a slap fight in the middle as I surrounded his army - including tying up his catapult with a summoned unit of Daemonettes - which led to Archaon obliterating the 20 Mortek Guard blob in one go through their 3+ re-rollable save! 

Game 2 was Forcing the Hand against a Bonesplittaz army with something like 80+ models, 4 Wardokks and an Anvil hero with a 3+ save, Ethereal and a 4+ ward (from the Bonesplittaz artifacts I believe) using the sub faction that you are forced to charge and can't retreat from. Between his nigh unkillable Anvil hero and a big Savage Orruk blob that was running a 2+ save (thankfully this won't be possible in 3.0) there was virtually nothing I could do, especially as I wasn't aware the Savage Orruks could get to a 2+ save until after I charged my four big monsters into them (who proceeded to do absolutely nothing.) For laughs, we had Archaon and the Anvil hero face off, but I couldn't roll two 6s to save my life - even with a double pile-in from a summoned Keeper - and the Anvils hero survived on 2 wounds. Rough. This player went on to win the event, and his build hard-countered mine and was also the strongest use of the Anvils rules I've seen to date, so I didn't feel too bad about it. 

Game 3 was Total Commitment against a Dhom-Hain Idoneth army running an Akhelian Corps with Volturnos and an Eidolon - you know the list. My shooting was rendered useless by his 2+ unrendable Ishlaen Guard at the front, forcing me to charge straight in wherein I killed one shark with Archaon and left the other badly wounded. By the end of the first round, I'd lost two Soul Grinders, but I thankfully kept the turn priority. The top of turn two saw two of Archaon kill the Leviadon, and the bottom of turn two saw him get charged by virtually the entire Idoneth army in a hail mary play to remove him - it worked, but thanks to surviving the first chosen units' attacks and then piling-in when he died (his command ability) Archaon promptly killed Volturnos, an entire Namarti unit and the entirety of a 6-strong Morsarr unit. The game was incredibly tough from there given that I had little left of use after losing three of my four big monsters and having to contend with Idoneth in turn three with two Ishlaen units and an Eidolon still running amok, with it coming down to me summoning some Daemonettes onto his back objective and keeping him off my home objective long enough to secure the win by a measly few points. 

Game 4 was Shifting Objectives against Ironjawz running a Maw Krusha and an Ironfist in...the faction where everything is -1 to be hit in the first round. To my surprise he took first turn (I was expecting him to play for the double) taking two of the three objectives with his Brutes while his Krusha and pigs rushed forward, and he left two Soul Grinders on 1 and 4 wounds left respectively just from his Maw-Krusha's attacks, while his 6 Gore-Gruntas took 8 wounds off the third Grinder. My turn saw me retreat the Grinder fighting the Gore-Gruntas and promptly try to assassnate the Maw-Krusha fighting the other two Grinders with Archaon, but I failed my Sorcerers' Daemonic Power on him and between shooting and combat I whiffed hard - however, the Maw-Krusha whiffed even harder, failing to wound the 1-wound Grinder and only taking 3 wounds off the 4-wound Grinder!  I luckily won the turn roll and killed the Krusha, but it tying me up a turn longer than it should have meant I wasn't able to deal with the Gore-Gruntas in a timely fashion, and that ultimately meant that he was able to pull out a big win on victory points thanks to me not being able to get to the objectives quick enough. Archaon's -2 Bravery aura really showed its strengths here, as he killed all 6 Gore-Gruntas in one go with its help, saw half a 10-strong Brute unit flee, and saw 3 Brutes run away after their 2 squad mates died! Some better rolls on my part in particular - he had no unbinds, so failing my Daemonic Power was really bad - would have helped out a lot. 

Game 5 was Total Conquest against Daughters of Khaine, a Khelt-Nar list using Vyperic Guard; 20 Blood Sisters, 15 Blood Stalkers, 5 Blood Sisters, Morathi, a Hag Queen on foot and an Ironscale. I knew this one would be rough as mortal wounds are the bane of 3+ save monsters. This compact little force made me go first (to which I did little because he used his ranges appropriately) and a tiredness-forced mistake on my part saw me waste 2 CP for no gain on Archaon's two command abilities to try and get a Soul Grinder that was about to be charged to fight when it died (I accidentally used it on the wrong one, then when I tried to rectify my mistake after he used a CP, I rolled a 1.) His turn saw one Grinder removed in combat, and another obliterated in shooting. He won the double turn, and at the end of my turn two I only had Archaon (who retreated away from Morathi in case I won the turn roll) and the Sorcerer Lord left, having dealt 10 wounds to Morathi. I won the turn roll as I needed to, killed Morathi with Arcane Bolt and Dorghar's mortal wound spit ability, summoned 20 Daemonettes to contest his back objective and charged them and Archaon into his Blood Stalkers, where Archaon alone wiped them out. Suddenly, a crushing loss turned into a game. In the end, it came down to Archaon rolling a little bit too low on a charge roll for him to get into base contact with both his heroes sitting on an objective; I had to fight with my 20 Daemonettes into his 10 Witch Aelves first to ensure I won the objective they were fighting for (if you've ever used Daemonettes, you'll know why) which meant his Ironscale moved into base contact with Archaon and prevented him piling around to reach both her and his Hag Queen. We worked out that if Archaon had rolled even 1" higher on his charge roll, or if I'd had one extra Depravity point to summon 10 Daemonettes there instead, I would have forced a draw and likely tabled him. It was a game of two halves, as he got the perfect double turn, but then I got exactly everything I needed to come back and make a game of it, almost forcing a draw just off the back of Archaon, a Sorcerer Lord and summoning - given his army hard countered mine and he's one of the top players in Australia, I couldn't be unhappy with that. 

I went 2-3, and confirmed all my suspicions; Archaon and three Soul Grinders belong in two entirely different lists, and Soul Grinders' are a LOT weaker than they used to be in the old book. Old book they got exploding 6s, guaranteed re-roll 1s to-hit from Syll'Esske, etc. New book they generate Depravity (and they're great at it) but I definitely need to run a Viceleader/Epitome with them for the re-roll 1s, as they're just so swingy now; they also need an army around them to eat up all the mortal wounds and high Rend that will want to be going into them. I was pleased with my 2 wins, and outside of the Bonesplittaz game against easily the strongest army at the tournament, all my games were super close and fun - and best of all, each of my opponents were great sports as always, with me getting to play three familiar faces and two new ones. Syll'Esskan Host is getting a big buff from the new universal enhancements as the current realm artifacts suck, but it's definitely still the weakest host unless you're building around Daemonsteel. As you'd expect, running it without Syll'Esske drew a lot of confused looks! 

[Carnith]

7 hours ago, Feorag said:

Even named characters can take the benefits from spell enhancement or extra spell enhancement.

 

I agree with this interpretation, I'm just saying what other people have said. 

[Enoby]

According to some interpretations of the rules, we won't be able to use S2D units at all This may well be unintended and another question for the FAQ, but as of now, units must be in the pitched battle profile list to be part of the army. As S2D are only markable, this wouldn't satisfy army requirements. 

On one hand, we're not missing much competitively, but on the other hand if it does pan out that way, it sucks from a narrative perspective. People have spend a lot of time converting and painting god marked Slaves to use in their god armies.

Hopefully it's clarified in the GHB - something like "Units from Slaves to Darkness that have a keyword [insert god keywords here] are also part of their pitched battle profiles"

[Feorag]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

According to some interpretations of the rules, we won't be able to use S2D units at all This may well be unintended and another question for the FAQ, but as of now, units must be in the pitched battle profile list to be part of the army. As S2D are only markable, this wouldn't satisfy army requirements. 

On one hand, we're not missing much competitively, but on the other hand if it does pan out that way, it sucks from a narrative perspective. People have spend a lot of time converting and painting god marked Slaves to use in their god armies.

Hopefully it's clarified in the GHB - something like "Units from Slaves to Darkness that have a keyword [insert god keywords here] are also part of their pitched battle profiles"

That has been my interpretation too with the only real way to use them is as allies.

I mean if the rumours are true and chaos warriors go to 10s there's no much need for us to take them anymore anyway.

I'm just gutted at no more slaaneshi beasts in matched play which with the no marked units from s2d interpretation seems to make sense ! 

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, Feorag said:

That has been my interpretation too with the only real way to use them is as allies.

I mean if the rumours are true and chaos warriors go to 10s there's no much need for us to take them anymore anyway.

I'm just gutted at no more slaaneshi beasts in matched play which with the no marked units from s2d interpretation seems to make sense ! 

To be honest, if I were to take a guess, they want to make a true separation between matched and narrative/open play. 

I'm not sure about others, but in the past, narrative games were kind of just matched play with a story attached and maybe a running set of upgrades. You might have a narrative "2k list of squigs" vs a narrative of "2k ogors" who want to eat the squigs. It works like a matched play game but you don't pick optimal models and you may have a different battleplan.

Now I think they may want matched play to be actually balanced play. Not just points and some restrictions, but "cut off the fun fluff and get down to the meat of the game". No narrative battalions, no mixing S2D with gods, a strict way to get enhancements, and very straight forward battleplans. 

Narrative on the other hand seems to be more like AoS 2 with extras, and what looks like a very cool crusade system.

If this is the case, then it may be nice for them to give narrative its own identity as an actual game mode, rather than code for "mess about with a few daft lists", and for matched play to move away from "normal" play. But I think the latter will be a harder change