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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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8 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Yeah I ment taking him as part of a slaanesh army with syn also

I know, but what I meant is that Synessa doesn't have all the Slaanesh spells on their warscroll -- just an ability that means they know all of the spells from the two Slaanesh lores. Kairos only gets their warscroll spell, which is the dark whispers one or whatever it's called. 

Edited by LeonBox
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It sounds like unit champions can use all the generic commands on their own units with no restrictions. 

With that in mind, what is the point of Synessa's "Voice" rule? The list of units we have that can't self-command is tiny. It'd be one thing if unit champions couldn't use Inspiring Presence for example, but that doesn't appear to be the case. 

They clearly wrote her for 3.0, but from the core rule previews it sounds like both parts of her "Voice" rule are nigh on useless. It's so baffling and frustrating because Dexcessa is an extremely well written warscroll, but Synessa...I don't know what they were thinking. 

Other than that, all the core rule stuff I've seen looks like a big win for us. Exciting times! 

Edited by Jaskier
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On 6/12/2021 at 11:36 AM, Enoby said:

They can fit in the warlord battalion together :)

Two Leaders (Keeper and Dex) and one sub commander (Syn, as they have 9 wounds) :)

I looked again and unless I’m mistaken you need two subcommanders for Warlord? Which you can do, but that’s spending around half your points on Leaders

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4 hours ago, Selpharia said:

I looked again and unless I’m mistaken you need two subcommanders for Warlord? Which you can do, but that’s spending around half your points on Leaders

It is points intensive, though from what we understand battalions are free - it's not a bad idea to have a small buffing hero or just something really cheap tagging along :) A Lord of Pain can help for battleline, or a Contorted Epitome for casting - or a Hero of Chaos if you're really tight on points :)

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

It sounds like unit champions can use all the generic commands on their own units with no restrictions. 

With that in mind, what is the point of Synessa's "Voice" rule? The list of units we have that can't self-command is tiny. It'd be one thing if unit champions couldn't use Inspiring Presence for example, but that doesn't appear to be the case. 

They clearly wrote her for 3.0, but from the core rule previews it sounds like both parts of her "Voice" rule are nigh on useless. It's so baffling and frustrating because Dexcessa is an extremely well written warscroll, but Synessa...I don't know what they were thinking. 

Other than that, all the core rule stuff I've seen looks like a big win for us. Exciting times! 

Yeah, it's really confusing. Though I have a feeling that the unit leader rules were added later on in the process after Synessa was finalised. Why? Well it looks like a few other rules are rendered useless by it too.

What's the point of the increased range of commands from 12" to 18" from totems and generals if unit champions can be within range of themselves at all time? Surely it can't have been written just in case the opponent has targeted removal.

My guess is that unit leaders used to not have that effect but during playtesting, the game became about who could snipe heroes the fastest to deny all command abilities (which are now a much bigger part of AoS 3), so they added unit leaders in to help offset this, invalidating some of the rules previously.

Unless we find an alternative answer in the core book, I'm going to send in an email to them to clarify if this ability is meant to be nigh on useless.

On the other hand, with improved Arcane Bolt and Stomp, if you're feeling brave Synessa can do 1d6/3+d3+d3 MWs. This is a pretty nice way to blow up a hero before combat begins. Not a very subtle use of the voice, but all of this happens before the opponent can respond. 

---

I've seen the "Battle Tactics" which are chosen each turn (cannot choose the same more than once per battle) to generate an extra VP. They're pretty simple stuff, with a few things to keep an eye on:

One requires you to kill a unit in the opponent's territory, one requires you to just kill a unit, one requires you steal an objective, one requires you kill a general, destroy an enemy in your territory, and sit in the centre of the board. We can do all of these pretty easily (I think they're easy for all armies - though very hard to score against SoB), but Dexcessa is especially good for flying over and killing a lone hero to get the kill in the opponent's territory easily. 

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38 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I've seen the "Battle Tactics" which are chosen each turn (cannot choose the same more than once per battle) to generate an extra VP. They're pretty simple stuff, with a few things to keep an eye on:

One requires you to kill a unit in the opponent's territory, one requires you to just kill a unit, one requires you steal an objective, one requires you kill a general, destroy an enemy in your territory, and sit in the centre of the board. We can do all of these pretty easily (I think they're easy for all armies - though very hard to score against SoB), but Dexcessa is especially good for flying over and killing a lone hero to get the kill in the opponent's territory easily. 

The thing that worried me about the battle tactics is that 4/6 of them necessitate killing a unit completely. That runs contrary to the usual gameplan of whittling units down to try to generate more depravity. It also creates a stronger incentive for the opponent to focus down the slaanesh units and pick their targets wisely. Not a huge deal, but it could have some interesting ramifications. All in all though it's a very slight blip, if the points rumors pan out then I think Slaanesh could be one of the stronger contenders at the start of the edition.

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The new enhancement rules on magic is very nice for a caster heavy list. As knowing 2 lore spells brings a lot to play!

Master of magic command trait for a reroll and  arcane tome for an extra spell means we can almost play with the big kids in magic! 

Also the fact that syn can throw out all out attack on an exalted chariot that's running on its own is great! 

 

 

 

Screenshot_20210614-080944~2.png

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Alright, looking through everything, here are my general thoughts. 

We will have a lot of CP in an invaders force, but with some of the builds that I see, we might struggle to get use of all the CP that we can gather, though definitely in a better spot that many other armies that will struggle with the 2-3 they get in a turn. 

Abilities that are on warscrolls that might've seemed like a waste are actually in a better spot. Reroll saves on myrmadesh is in a better state due to all out defense adding the +1 saves to give them a 3+ RR. Having rerolling charges on a fair bit of our units allows us to take the charge CA for a unit that can't get access to it. 

Coherency doesn't hurt as much as I'd thought. We were taking a lot of msu anyways with the exception of daemonettes, so our reinforcement points don't really hurt here. Archers are still in a little weird spot with coherency but they will be fine. Fiends fall under the weird coherency formation to get all of their attacks in, but atleast have 2" reach on tails. 

Big buffs in the form of the trigger effects. Nearly all of our models have a trigger on 6 to hit (archer units excluded for their main attack), so we will always get to trigger our 2 hits ability. To help with archers, getting a priest in the army (warshrine is a bit expensive, but if your local allows AoA heroes, you could make a cheap priest) to get curse off on a unit allowing our archers to deal mortal wounds. Though I could still see some units that while double taps are good, some units might want to just deal mw's instead. I'm thinking like herald chariots that might rather just spike a bunch of gaurenteed mws over 2 hits. Slicks, I think, want the 2 hits since they can still do mws on the wound roll. 

Battle Tactics go against our army play style, a shame really. 

A fun interaction that could happen is with the Harp Herald. If she makes someone reroll into double 1's she could make them take 2d3 mortal wounds. That can be huge, though very unlikely. 

Monster rules are very helpful to allow the keeper or one of the twins some mw's on the charge. Same thing with Arcane Bolt. You could hold it on an exalted herald chariot, charge for some mortal wounds, and then at start of combat, set off the arcane bolt for 2d3 mw's against a unit. 

Hero interactions will hopefully help us keep monsters in the game. With more msu units, death star units might not have as much support, so you are less likely to come across a unit with 40 models that can just instant kill you. Also we will still have our horde killer spell to help here. 

Battleshock. This still hurts, but Syll'Esske and Glutos being in the army for mortals is pretty much needed.

This was some of the positives I thought of. Some of the negatives though...

Keeper stonks still on the downcurve. One CA per phase hurts taking multiple keepers since they cannot make them both pile in and fight twice.

Twinsouls might struggle with more armies having access to 1-2 ways to increase save with twinsouls having still no rend, but to add one more positive, they can get atleast to 3/3 with rerolling hits. 

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1 hour ago, Nagashfan said:

Syn’s command board wide ability does seem to be 99 percent useless except for non hero chariots maybe??!!

you can only use and recieve one command ability, so if a keeper gets something to fight twice and you want AOA on the keeper then Syn is perfect for this! 

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6 minutes ago, Feorag said:

you can only use and recieve one command ability, so if a keeper gets something to fight twice and you want AOA on the keeper then Syn is perfect for this! 

Ok I see for buffing hero’s that use their abilities on someone else… ok might be useful then

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I read over the rules, and I am super excited to give it a try! I modified my previous list because from what I read, the battalions do not cost points; I got rid of the mesmerize mirror so that the two wizard can control both endless spells, and added a unit of slickblades for additional damage or flanking potential. 
 

Let me know what you guys think of the list, and if I missed anything or messed up somewhere; I believe this army generates 3 cp per turn but I’m unsure if I misinterpreted the rules.  

The theory behind the list is that Glutos moves up the center with the Lord of Pain,  Painbringers, and Emerald Swarm to hold the middle, and the blissbarb archers either follow behind or go to the side to hold a backfield objective while generating depravity. The Twinsouls and the Shardspeaker move on the flank to either catch lightly armored units or to help with the mid in case things get dicey; the Shardspeaker casts the Wheels (only a casting value of 5!) to get a +3 save. The Fiends come in from the side of the board, while the Slickblades either tag along with them via infiltration or go wherever they are needed.
 

I feel that the shooting, mixed with the wheels, will be suffice to generate depravity early on, and there will be plenty of casting and CP in the late game to buff my frontlines and maintain the list’s survivability through the game.
 

Slaanesh List- Lurid Haze- 3, cp a turn, 4 once per battle

1990/2000

 

Warlord Battalion 

- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact 

 

Heroes:

 

Glutos- 400

- Spell: Judgement of Excess

 

Shardspeaker- 150

General #1 

Artifact: Oil of Exultation

- Spell: Dark Delusions 

 

Lord of Pain- 150

General #2

Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation

Artifact: Rod of Misrule

Triumph: Inspired 

 

Batteline:

Twinsouls x 5- 170

Blissbarb Archers x 10- 160

Painbringers x 10- 300

 

Linebreakers- 

Fiends x 6- 360

Slickblades x 5- 200

 

Endless Spells:

Emerald Swarm (50) 

Wheels of Excruciation (50)

 

Summons: 

Fiends

Daemonettes

Keeper of Secret

Infernal Enrapturess 

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I like slaangors in the new edition and I don't care who knows it! Lol. 

All out attack for 3+ to hit. 2 inch range on weapons so you could take 6 and still hit with both ranks. I'm going to take them in my path to glory army and see how they do against my FEC buddy. 

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33 minutes ago, Nagash42 said:

I like slaangors in the new edition and I don't care who knows it! Lol. 

All out attack for 3+ to hit. 2 inch range on weapons so you could take 6 and still hit with both ranks. I'm going to take them in my path to glory army and see how they do against my FEC buddy. 

So…Slaangors may have been written (like points) with 3.0 in mind and are justifiably nasty? That would be cool. Might explain a LOT as to their thought process. 

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1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

Slaanesh List- Lurid Haze- 3, cp a turn, 4 once per battle

1990/2000

 

Warlord Battalion 

- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact 

 

Heroes:

 

Glutos- 400

- Spell: Judgement of Excess

 

Shardspeaker- 150

General #1 

Artifact: Oil of Exultation

- Spell: Dark Delusions 

 

Lord of Pain- 150

General #2

Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation

Artifact: Rod of Misrule

Triumph: Inspired 

 

Batteline:

Twinsouls x 5- 170

Blissbarb Archers x 10- 160

Painbringers x 10- 300

 

Linebreakers- 

Fiends x 6- 360

Slickblades x 5- 200

 

Endless Spells:

Emerald Swarm (50) 

Wheels of Excruciation (50)

 

Summons: 

Fiends

Daemonettes

Keeper of Secret

Infernal Enrapturess 

I like this list :)

Only things to add are whether Lurid Haze is worth it in this list compared to Glory Hog for some extra CP. It doesn't look like anything will benefit massively from a teleport but it may well benefit from a likely two extra CP a turn from Glory Hog (granted one is just an extra inspiring presence). The extra +1 to save is nice, but with mystic shield also being +1 to save and the generic CA existing, I'm not sure if you'll get the necessary CP to use it often. Also means your extra artifact could give the shardspeaker two casts :)

The other thing is whether you want the Painbringers in two units of 5 instead; the save would have to be shared around, but you'd have more board coverage and depravity, as well as a higher defences from no carry over damage. 

---

Also, while there's contention on whether Glutos gets a spell lore (day 1 FAQ issue I'm sure), I very much like the utility the generic lore gives. Specifically, flying Slickblades or even flying Sigvald (say goodbye to hidden heroes). Good from the Epitome, and if they get all spells then they do some decent damage with Flaming Weapon on their 9 attacks. Moment of Glory (its real name escapes me for some reason), gives them 9 attacks at 3/3/-1/2.

Also, the 5+ ward sage artifact on a KoS is looking very nice...  

Edited by Enoby
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since they’re our “sworn enemy”, it applies in the loosest sense to this thread: anyone notice how Khorne will also love this edition? Khorne loves nothing more than MSU for Blood Tithe. Slaanesh and Khorne will be great in a team game (because giving the finger to lore and god-to-god hatred)!

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2 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

since they’re our “sworn enemy”, it applies in the loosest sense to this thread: anyone notice how Khorne will also love this edition? Khorne loves nothing more than MSU for Blood Tithe. Slaanesh and Khorne will be great in a team game (because giving the finger to lore and god-to-god hatred)!

I'm hoping Khorne will get a boost :) I can see the MSU helping them and the monster rules for their thirsters, but I'm wondering what else gives them a hand? Coherency sounds like it might hurt

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I would love to pick the brain of our rulebook writer who thought "pathways of the dark prince" was a interesting spell as book was designed with 3rd in mind.

A "the caster can fly" for 7+ is cool, oh wait generic spells let you now do "any unit can fly for 8+" guess this adds to our list of spells that are minorly different versions of either "heal d3" "do mortals based on some gimick", Cute that only keeper and synessa get access to pathways, so 50% of the casters who can use that spell doesnt need to. Guess the true magical power of slaanesh is "budget vanilla spells"

Honestly outside of points stuff the spell lores for slaanesh have been a weird part of the book, I feel we have way to many spells that are the same, or get same effect for some weird minigame

Lore of slaanesh - 4 different "does mortal wounds", a spell that may or may not lower bravery, a decent heal

Forbidden lore- discount generic fly spell, the cool spell to turn off heroes, the same healing spell as lore with minor tweaks (only one of these feel "forbidden"

mortal lore- battle shock immune, another mortal wound spell, a 4+ to cast to get slightly better than 50/50 odds to get +1 to hit

ghost mists might be useful, though its range is 6" might be worth on bladebringer herald heading up and putting smoke into terrain

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Flaming Weapons doesn't specify you can't pick a mounts' weapon, so it's great on Exalted Chariots too. It's arguably best on Syll'Esske though, as even without using Finest Hour they can easily get to 8 attacks 2+/3+/-1/D2. 

Another odd little note is that the Shardspeaker doesn't get full benefit from their +2 save ability anymore as positive save roll modifiers are capped at +1. Also, being restricted to one use of Excess of Violence per turn is probably fine given how CP generation works and all the new commands we can use; it definitely discourages double Keeper outside of redundancy purposes. Dexcessa's 'free command' once per turn is much more potent with the way CP are and all the new commands, even if it's just to give herself +1 save every turn! We may need an FAQ to clarify if an army with multiple generals gets multiple CP from that rule each turn, though I'm 99% sure it's not supposed to work that way. Our bonus CP generation mechanics are really cool as they can let us play a lot more freely with commands compared to other factions, and new commands on the whole are strong. 

Warscroll battalions are confirmed gone (for matched play - we know this from the GHB leaks) which does reduce the worth of Slickblades a fair bit, but ultimately they're still looking like our overall most cost-effective mobile damage dealer. 

I'm thinking Glutos or Syll'Esske and one or both of a Keeper and Dexcessa are gonna start featuring in all my lists, and assuming Chaos Warriors do get changed to minimum ten I'll probably swap to 2x11 Blissbarbs and 1x5 Hellstriders for Battleline. The rest of my points will probably go towards Slickblades and Fiends with a cheeky Geminids or Wheels here or there, and a small hero (Syll'Esske coumts for this) to fill out the core battalion that gives the bonus CP and enhancement. Core battalions being free means you should always try and fit 1-2 of them if it doesn't compromise your army structure too much. 

Another thing I want to note is that it looks like units can still be under the effects of multiple command abilities simultaneously, but only if those commands are used in different phases. As an example this means an Archaon-Glutos list would still be able to use Glutos' command on Archaon in the hero phase, and Archaon would then still be able to use +1 save in the following shooting/combat phases. However, the flip side is that you wouldn't be able to use the Lord of Pain's command ability and Excess of Violence on a unit of Twinsouls in the same phase. 

Interestingly, the way CP generation works now makes it tougher to choose between regular Invaders and Lurid Haze, given that you need to run a specific core battalion for the extra artifact so that Lurid Haze can access the Rod of Misrule, and the fact that Glory Hog shot way up in value now that CP banking isn't a thing anymore and there's plenty more to spend them on. Food for thought. 

Edited by Jaskier
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Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- General
- Ritual Knife
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (250)
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
The Masque (130)
- Host Option: General
Shardspeaker of Slaanesh (150)
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (260)
- Host Option: General
11 x Blissbarb Archers (160)
11 x Blissbarb Archers (160)
5 x Hellstriders with Claw-spears (140)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112

Was thinking of this for a list. Realizing that lurid haze offers us 2 different +1 saves really makes us really defensible. Sigvald is rocking the +1 save for himself from the lurid haze, but another unit still has access to the saves. Rod of Misrule here for additional CP to fuel the save machine. One keeper cause double keeper is just for redundancy. 

For spells... I'm actually somewhat thinking of not taking some lore spells from slaanesh. I kind of want the +1D on the Chariot instead of standard heals. Healing probably still goes on the keeper. I did think about flaming weapon on keeper for her sword attacks though. Shard Speaker might get the Smokey Ruins spell, though the herald might want the smokey ruins spell to help her not die since she doesn't have look out sir. 

Looking at universal artefacts, the 5+ after save is really good, but hard to fit in. I could fit two warlord battalions if I drop sigvald for two basic heralds.

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I think I have found the use for Synessa's voice ability. It's pretty niche but may actually come up so it's not useless.

So, a unit can only use one command and be affect by one command. This means if a Keeper runs in and wants to use its double pile in on another unit, it has to forsake a command on itself, which can be lethal if you need that +1 save or +1 to hit. Normally this means the Keeper would be on its own, but Synessa can give it a command. 

I don't think it's amazing, but it is valid if the Keeper and some Slickblades etc charged at the same time.

8 hours ago, MothmanDraws said:

Honestly outside of points stuff the spell lores for slaanesh have been a weird part of the book, I feel we have way to many spells that are the same, or get same effect for some weird minigame

I agree. I think our spells were an afterthought in all honesty (and have remained an afterthought). Most of them aren't interesting of affect our gameplay in any way. The only ones I like are slothful stupor (because it is interesting), hysterical frenzy (because it's useful), and the healing spells (because they're useful). Other than that, like you said, they're just a bit meh and don't feel very creative. Not having buffing spells is fine (it seems on brand for us), but some reliable debuffs would have been nice. 

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Interestingly, the way CP generation works now makes it tougher to choose between regular Invaders and Lurid Haze, given that you need to run a specific core battalion for the extra artifact so that Lurid Haze can access the Rod of Misrule, and the fact that Glory Hog shot way up in value now that CP banking isn't a thing anymore and there's plenty more to spend them on. Food for thought. 

I think I'm moving towards normal invaders personally. Lurid Haze is nice for the teleport and the extra +1 save, but the additional CP and the ability to take that 5+ ward on the keeper is too good to pass up.

The only time I'd disagree with this is with Sigvald, simply because the teleport can be a massive boon for assassinating a hero. Not that I think we'll need it, but he's a big counter to the winged Stormcast hero. Healing Sigvald isn't a bad idea either. 

But yeah, I think a KoS with a 5+ ward is going to be brutal. It gives them a MW save and some defence against swingy profiles, but more importantly it plays well into its healing (it heals loads). I don't think it'll be unkillable by any stretch, but I think it will allow it to outstay its welcome. 

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3 hours ago, Adammck66 said:

New Tzeentch article kinda confirms our Shardspeaker only gets +1 save now.

Feels a bit wierd because it seemed like a flat increase rather than save stacking.

 

(In reference to fatemaster)

It really feels like we were designed during the development of 3rd ed, rather than once it was fully completed.

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