AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[CarkFish]

On 6/4/2021 at 8:55 AM, Enoby said:

Also, @CarkFish, did you get your game in?

Yes, I played ossiach bone reapers 

I took lurid haze with siggi and a kos, then too the 6"attack battalion with 3 units of slickbkades

2 units of CW's and a unit of blissbarbs

I REALLY struggled to kill anything ... Siggi rolled an 11 for his first charge out of deepstrike and fought twice .... 22 attacks and he managed 3 damage to the stupid ossiarch bone mauler fat guy thing.... Then it healed 

My keeper did good work nearly wiping a unit of mortek guard 

But I just kept getting smashed in every combat, didn't get distraction off once which hurt my battalion shenannigans .... 

I took an early lead on points, we played the random objective one... I was 11 -0 up at the end of BR 3 ... 

The early lead is all that made it close, by the end of round 4 he had all 4 objectives and we were at 11-16 .... I called it when he got first turn in BR5 

The army is fun, and I definitely felt my own bad play was more of a factor than anything else.... I'm reworking the list to play DOK this week 

[Yoid]

11 minutes ago, CarkFish said:

Yes, I played ossiach bone reapers 

I took lurid haze with siggi and a kos, then too the 6"attack battalion with 3 units of slickbkades

2 units of CW's and a unit of blissbarbs

I REALLY struggled to kill anything ... Siggi rolled an 11 for his first charge out of deepstrike and fought twice .... 22 attacks and he managed 3 damage to the stupid ossiarch bone mauler fat guy thing.... Then it healed 

My keeper did good work nearly wiping a unit of mortek guard 

But I just kept getting smashed in every combat, didn't get distraction off once which hurt my battalion shenannigans .... 

I took an early lead on points, we played the random objective one... I was 11 -0 up at the end of BR 3 ... 

The early lead is all that made it close, by the end of round 4 he had all 4 objectives and we were at 11-16 .... I called it when he got first turn in BR5 

The army is fun, and I definitely felt my own bad play was more of a factor than anything else.... I'm reworking the list to play DOK this week 

What did you summon? Maybe if you summon small screens of Daemonettes you can keep the enemy away from the objective, make your early lead slightly bigger and then win on points at the end by a small margin.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Yoid

[CarkFish]

1 minute ago, Yoid said:

What did you summon? Maybe if you summon small screens of Daemonettes you can keep the enemy away from the objective, make your early lead sligthly bigger and then win on points at the end by a small margin.

I summoned two units of 10 demonettes in total BR3 & BR4 .... Katakros deleted them

[shinros]

16 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I don't know why anyone would have thought otherwise, these books wouldn't have been written that far apart. 

Technically our book was meant to come out last year, I would say that's a reasonable timeframe considering how the broken realm books were pushed out, rewriting a single warscroll shouldn't be that difficult. 

[Yoid]

The new Annihilators rules feel like a mockery to the poor Slaangors.

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, Yoid said:

The new Annihilators rules feel like a mockery to the poor Slaangors.

Bullgors are better then slaangors and bullgors are not exactly winning anything. 

[Enoby]

To be honest, pretty much anything feels like a mockery to Slaangors. They're the one unit in the battletome I cannot get my head around. They're almost unbelievably poorly designed, to the point where I can't imagine anyone looking over the rules would 'okay' it. I think it's pretty telling that, on the site I often buy from, most of the Slaanesh models have about 2-3 in stock, or sold out, but the Slaangors are the only unit with 20 left in stock. 

I hope this inspires quick change. 

7 hours ago, CarkFish said:

Yes, I played ossiach bone reapers 

I took lurid haze with siggi and a kos, then too the 6"attack battalion with 3 units of slickbkades

2 units of CW's and a unit of blissbarbs

I REALLY struggled to kill anything ... Siggi rolled an 11 for his first charge out of deepstrike and fought twice .... 22 attacks and he managed 3 damage to the stupid ossiarch bone mauler fat guy thing.... Then it healed 

My keeper did good work nearly wiping a unit of mortek guard 

But I just kept getting smashed in every combat, didn't get distraction off once which hurt my battalion shenannigans .... 

I took an early lead on points, we played the random objective one... I was 11 -0 up at the end of BR 3 ... 

The early lead is all that made it close, by the end of round 4 he had all 4 objectives and we were at 11-16 .... I called it when he got first turn in BR5 

The army is fun, and I definitely felt my own bad play was more of a factor than anything else.... I'm reworking the list to play DOK this week 

Thanks very much for the write up! It seems like you got super unlucky against that Harvester (I'm assuming). Like, the average damage against (with 2 pile ins) is 24 - two and a bit dead!

What mistakes did you think you made? To be honest, I think the majority of people lose their first few games with Slaanesh (which does not help the reputation), but usually you spot lots of mistakes each time and improve

What tweaks are you thinking of making? 

[Jaskier]

6 hours ago, shinros said:

Technically our book was meant to come out last year, I would say that's a reasonable timeframe considering how the broken realm books were pushed out, rewriting a single warscroll shouldn't be that difficult. 

We also don't know when BR: Kragnos was originally supposed to come out; besides, warscroll rewrites almost never happen within a few months of initial publication, let alone a year. That's the sort of thing you should expect after a year or two, especially as GW didn't have any tangible game data beyond internal playtesting to know if Slaangors required an adjustment before BR: Kragnos was published. Of course it's obvious to us that they need a rewrite or a major points drop, but it clearly wasn't - and perhaps still isn't - to them. Anyone who seriously believed we were getting any warscroll updates in BR: Kragnos was just unnecessarily setting themselves up for disappointment. 

In other news, I'm taking my newly finished Archaon and three Soul Grinders in Syll'Esskan Host (I really wish Daemonsteel Contingent was available to the other Hosts) to a GT this weekend  No Syll'Esske (yep, you don't need to run them to have a legal Syll'Esskan Host list...you'd just be dumb not to!) and just got a Sorcerer Lord (for Archaon) some Blissbarbs and Chaos Warriors to back them up, I've been wanting to try Slaanesh Archaon again with proper support, and I've theory crafted so much about the Grinders that I need to see if they really are the Depravity machines I think they are. 

First mission is a grudge against Ossiarchs in Escalation...gonna be a tough match, especially as I'm not even sure if those four 160mm bases will even fit 24" away from my opponents zone 😅 I sure hope so! 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Jaskier

[Yoid]

I mean. The new Annhilator profile prove that they can do powerfull 3 "human sized" monster warscrolls that feel cool. Slaangors with that combat profile would feel right. And the mortal wounds on the charge is like the correct version of the MW after combat that Slaangors are stuck with. Like that warscrolls should be slaangors except for the 2+ save that they change for the 8inch move. Is even more "Slaangors done right" than the many other units.

[Sorrow]

Anyone who played more than 10 games of Age of Sigmar should with a 1 minute glance over Slaangor warscroll see that it is absolute garbage. Which is a great shame since the models are beautiful and the lore describes them as mighty indeed.

That a Games Workshop rules team, who write this for living, could say "It is okay" when taking a final glance at Slaangor warscroll speaks more of either utter incompetence or as many rumors already imply, a deliberate desire on part of some writers to see Hedonite faction as weak as possible. Lack of play-testing data does not explain our rules, for Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Soulblight prove that rules could be written properly in a Covid-19 era.

 

[Enoby]

43 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

Anyone who played more than 10 games of Age of Sigmar should with a 1 minute glance over Slaangor warscroll see that it is absolute garbage. Which is a great shame since the models are beautiful and the lore describes them as mighty indeed.

I have a feeling there was a mistake in their rules process - a last minute change that left them this bad. Our other warscrolls are pretty decent, just very questionably costed, but I would say the Slaangor is the only one that is an absolute failure from both angles. I don't think the rules writers are utterly incompetent, but I reckon they may have given Slaangors 4 attacks at 4/3/-2/2 (Dread Pagent stats - which would be pretty nice for 140 points) but at the last minute in testing someone said "I think these are too strong, we need to tone them down" and then did a hasty last minute nerf that left them uninteresting and rubbish. 

48 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

deliberate desire on part of some writers to see Hedonite faction as weak as possible.

I don't think they wanted to make us 'weak' so much as they were very scared to have a repeat of 2019 and overcorrected (esp with points). It could well be the person who wrote the 2019 battletome was reprimanded and so made sure to work extra hard in it never happening again, restraining themselves. 

It doesn't excuse them, but hopefully it would mean they're more open to change. 

Also, I would ask that if we don't see points changes in the digital document after the GHB (very much doubt it would be in the printed variant), we should send in the survey results again. Mostly just as a reminder as I can imagine the rules team would be extra busy

Though if everyone else gets an increase, we don't need to comment. 

[Sorrow]

@Enoby Let us wait and see where AOS 3 will take us. Both in rules and lore.

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Our other warscrolls are pretty decent, just very questionably costed, but I would say the Slaangor is the only one that is an absolute failure from both angles.

For what it's worth, you could literally double the damage output of Slaangors and they would still be doing worse damage than many units at their point level. Really hoping those guys get the warscroll rewrite they deserve. Maybe there is a chance of some warscrolls getting updates in the transition from AoS 2 to AoS 3, although I would not hold my breath.

[Enoby]

7 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

@Enoby Let us wait and see where AOS 3 will take us. Both in rules and lore.

 

 

I very much agree. I would say, from what we've seen, we're looking considerably more interesting in AoS 3 even without knowing all of the rules. We can generate command points like crazy and have some great heroes and monsters. 

I think Dexcessa's already gone up a lot in my estimations, and Synessa may follow depending on commands (if we have some great hero only commands then Synessa may be a fantastic buff piece). 

 

5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

For what it's worth, you could literally double the damage output of Slaangors and they would still be doing worse damage than many units at their point level. Really hoping those guys get the warscroll rewrite they deserve. Maybe there is a chance of some warscrolls getting updates in the transition from AoS 2 to AoS 3, although I would not hold my breath.

I hope so too. The one thing that kind of gives me hope is Thunderer's getting a rewrite 6 months after their tome. It was a nerf, but it has happened. 

That said, I think the most likely situation is White Dwarf or a narrative book like Wrath of the Everchosen on Broken Realms.  

Edited June 7, 2021 by Enoby

[Sorrow]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I very much agree. I would say, from what we've seen, we're looking considerably more interesting in AoS 3 even without knowing all of the rules. We can generate command points like crazy and have some great heroes and monsters. 

I think Dexcessa's already gone up a lot in my estimations, and Synessa may follow depending on commands (if we have some great hero only commands then Synessa may be a fantastic buff piece).

The initial changes do suggest that AoS 3. rules could favor us, but until we have seen them in full, I will remain cautiously optimistic.

Also, I suspect that AoS 3. will see a lot of new heroes and monsters for existing and new factions, as such we will need to gauge where we are truly.

[Jaskier]

4 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Anyone who played more than 10 games of Age of Sigmar should with a 1 minute glance over Slaangor warscroll see that it is absolute garbage. Which is a great shame since the models are beautiful and the lore describes them as mighty indeed.

That a Games Workshop rules team, who write this for living, could say "It is okay" when taking a final glance at Slaangor warscroll speaks more of either utter incompetence or as many rumors already imply, a deliberate desire on part of some writers to see Hedonite faction as weak as possible. Lack of play-testing data does not explain our rules, for Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth and Soulblight prove that rules could be written properly in a Covid-19 era.

 

This is the last time I will say this, because I've said it multiple times already.

There is no deliberate effort to make Slaanesh a weak faction. 

It is a baseless rumour. Games Workshop are about models first, rules second, but they know that rules help sell models. They don't deliberately make units 'weak' or 'useless', because it would directly affect their sales. As someone who has been around the game for a long time, the simple reality is that their rules designers are guilty of missing the mark quite often. That's all there is to it. This is the same company that printed the 7th Edition Tyranid Pyrovore datasheet that, rules as written, nuked the entire board when it died - it was only unable to hurt vehicles, with Tyranids conveniently being the only faction that lacked them - and, from memory, never actually fixed it. 

They put in the effort to rework our summoning and inflated our points because they wanted to make sure we didn't get a repeat of the original Hedonites book completely dominating the tournament scene. It's really that simple. The more I play with this book, the more I see they were absolutely right to, as it's a deceptively strong book in the right hands and bringing our points down too much would break the army again. 

They clearly modelled Slaangors after Tzaangor Enlightened on foot, but they probably forgot that no-one uses those because you would never take them in a serious list over the Enlightened (i.e. the same unit but better) on disks. They really should have just made them similar to Bullgors but with greater speed and maybe an extra rule or two and they'd have been decent. It's a shame, but it's the only warscroll in the book that really leaves me scratching my head - I see a use for pretty much every other unit in our battletome, which isn't something that can be said for every army.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Jaskier

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

This is the last time I will say this, because I've said it multiple times already.

There is no deliberate effort to make Slaanesh a weak faction. 

It is a baseless rumour. Games Workshop are about models first, rules second, but they know that rules help sell models. They don't deliberately make units 'weak' or 'useless', because it would directly affect their sales. As someone who has been around the game for a long time, the simple reality is that their rules designers are guilty of missing the mark quite often. That's all there is to it. This is the same company that printed the 7th Edition Tyranid Pyrovore datasheet that, rules as written, nuked the entire board when it died - it was only unable to hurt vehicles, with Tyranids conveniently being the only faction that lacked them - and, from memory, never actually fixed it. 

They put in the effort to rework our summoning and inflated our points because they wanted to make sure we didn't get a repeat of the original Hedonites book completely dominating the tournament scene. It's really that simple. 

They addressed the allegiance abilities problems by reworking them and toning them down. It's clear the new ones are way weaker then they were originally while offering more flexibility by not doubling down on hero hammer.

The points increase for a fear of a repeat make no sense. That repeat is not possible with these rules. They didn't even add new allegiance abilities they just tweaked existing ones slightly. I could understand some of the points more so if there were more host and other mechanics introduced and they were being conservative but that did not happen.

Even with aos 3 coming I have yet to see anything strong enough for the points cost. A Shardspeaker costing as much as a bloodwrack shrine is absurd. The dok and slaanesh point comparison shows something went way wrong with points and or release schedule. 

[Jaskier]

31 minutes ago, Poryague said:

They addressed the allegiance abilities problems by reworking them and toning them down. It's clear the new ones are way weaker then they were originally while offering more flexibility by not doubling down on hero hammer.

The points increase for a fear of a repeat make no sense. That repeat is not possible with these rules. They didn't even add new allegiance abilities they just tweaked existing ones slightly. I could understand some of the points more so if there were more host and other mechanics introduced and they were being conservative but that did not happen.

Even with aos 3 coming I have yet to see anything strong enough for the points cost. A Shardspeaker costing as much as a bloodwrack shrine is absurd. The dok and slaanesh point comparison shows something went way wrong with points and or release schedule. 

Our summoning is slower, but it's also not conditional on heroes alone, meaning our faction went from 'herohammer only' to actually allowing for diverse builds as I've been observing in tournament lists. If you have a problem with our Locus and Depravity being weaker, take it up with 99% of the AoS player-base, because virtually everyone hated how stupid and strong they were. The new versions are fine. 

How does it not make sense? I've played plenty of games with the new book, and I'm pretty handily getting 30+ Depravity each game - and that's with lists that aren't built around abusing the mechanic. If Blissbarbs dropped to 100 points per grouping, you'd never not take three units of them because those three units spread out would easily give us 6+ Depravity points alone on the first turn. That's exactly the reason why units in our book are priced the way they are, because the moment you drop them down too much, you get a situation where our summoning stacks up stupidly fast; if you can easily and reliably summon 90 Daemonettes/3 Keepers/etc in a single game, do you really care if you can only summon one unit per turn? I sure as hell wouldn't. 

Also, saying the allegiance abilities were only 'tweaked slightly' is flat out disingenuous. Old Depravity was hero-exclusive, and everyone agreed it needed to be reworked. They removed the abusive elements (chain-summoning), added an extra summon point in the Fane so games don't solely break down into keeping heroes alive, and reworked it to where everything in the game generates it - meaning our army went from being virtually mono-build to suddenly everything having a place. New Locus is also a big change because it went from being a "I made a mistake in the movement phase but oh look I rolled a 3+, too bad!" to something that actually requires smart thinking to make the most of. It's incredible with 6" pile-ins and tagging units, and it's very helpful for stopping units from using pile-ins to secure objectives. The army plays completely differently because of those two changes. You can't just shove three Keepers in your opponents face and expect to win like the old days. That in itself is proof we got a significant rework. 

If you think there's nothing in the book that is strong for it's points, I mean no offence but I'm curious about how much play-time you've really invested in the book. Off the top of my head, Slickblades are great. Glutos is fantastic. Syll'Esske is good. Dexcessa is good (Synessa is weaker at the moment, but 3.0 may change that.) Sigvald is good (he is great in Lurid Haze.) Fiends are good - they get hard-countered by shooting, but what doesn't in Slaanesh? Keepers are good - they're not unstoppable combat beasts anymore, but they remain quality all-rounder support pieces. Exalted Chariots are, in a sense, deadlier than ever with the Depravity changes. The Masque is genuinely great. The Infernal Enrapturess is a fine anti-magic hero. Daemonettes are a solid horde unit. Heck, even Blissbarbs look overpriced but, as I've explained before, they're great for Slaanesh specifically (and not so good elsewhere.) The things that are overpriced, like Myrmidesh, Twinsouls, our generic mortal heroes, etc generally aren't overpriced by much, maybe needing 20 point drops at most - with Slaangors being the big exception, obviously.

Doing a 1 to 1 comparison of points of our book to others is also a fool's game because our book is built around a summoning mechanic, whereas books like Daughters of Khaine aren't. If you told me with a straight face that our book wouldn't be overpowered if our units were priced "the way they would be if not accounting for summoning" then I would call you a liar. The book is already proving to be strong in capable hands. It's not nearly as weak as some people would have you believe. I've literally turned people's heads with how I've performed against their strong meta lists using lists that aren't meant to be super competitive, and I don't consider myself that good of a player. This book is not easy to win with, and that's why it is developing the reputation it is, but it is most certainly not weak. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Jaskier

[TimeToWaste85]

I don’t want to do a massive quote, so I’m just going to say that was fantastically well said! 

[Enoby]

Here's quite a nice buff to us in the new rules - endless spells.

Now they go in both hero phases, we generate depravity from them and have the Wheels of Excruciation which can easily cover 3 units a turn. Considering we get that in two turns, that's effectively double depravity potential. 

[Jaskier]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Here's quite a nice buff to us in the new rules - endless spells.

Now they go in both hero phases, we generate depravity from them and have the Wheels of Excruciation which can easily cover 3 units a turn. Considering we get that in two turns, that's effectively double depravity potential. 

And here I was thinking Tzeentch got the most out of that change 😅 It didn't even occur to me that this would double the value of predatory spells for us! Geminids might just start making it into all my lists now, though I have a feeling all the predatory endless spells might get some points hikes to compensate for this.

[Enoby]

10 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

This book is not easy to win with, and that's why it is developing the reputation it is, but it is most certainly not weak. 

Your entire post was fantastic but I just wanted to make a comment on this, because it rings very true to a video I watched a few days ago.

It was Slaanesh vs Skaven, Chariots vs Doomwheels (and some clan rats and guns). 

The Slaanesh player took three enrapturesses too. 

The basically charged everything into the oppinent's army, killed a lot of rats, and died a lot in return. They summoned a little bit too. They also used the Seeker Cavalcade battalion but never actually used the ability. 

Eventually the Slaanesh list lost. Which is fine, it was a 'bad' list and they knew it - they said it was more of a meme list. Absolutely fine.

But then they went on to say about how they hated the new battletome and it was weak ("nerf 3") and the enrapturess was the worst warscroll ever. 

And that made me think of Dark Artisan who also played a single Slaanesh game vs DoK, forgot practically all of their allegiance abilities, charged in blindly and prioritised attacking with a 1 wound keeper over 30 daemomettes. And then they said "yeah, this book is pretty bad"

And a MWG game where they made a lot of questionable choices, forgot Euphoric Killers was a thing, and charged things at random with no screens or plan. They decided the book was a joke book. 

That's not to say that everyone who doesn't like this book is bad. This isn't the case. But it frustrates me to no end when people play the book, mess up everything and forget the most basic of abilities, and then say the book is rubbish. It perpetuates this community zeitgeist that we have the worst book every written (you see it loads on other threads, "yeah, our book is bad, but it's no Slaanesh"), but it seems to be coming from some channels that have no clue how to play the army. 

Again, this isn't to say "if you don't like the army, git gud scrub" but more to bring attention the fact that a lot of the negative opinions of Slaanesh come from people who don't play the army, and it's important to not fall into the trap of a self fulfilling prophecy. The first batrep player did this - they thought "well Slaanesh is trash anyway, may as well not try and then confirm that they're bad when I inevitably lose" - and then they lost and said the army sucks. It would have been much more constructive if they'd have said "I think the reason I lost was because of X".   

[Poryague]

43 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Our summoning is slower, but it's also not conditional on heroes alone, meaning our faction went from 'herohammer only' to actually allowing for diverse builds as I've been observing in tournament lists. If you have a problem with our Locus and Depravity being weaker, take it up with 99% of the AoS player-base, because virtually everyone hated how stupid and strong they were. The new versions are fine. 

How does it not make sense? I've played plenty of games with the new book, and I'm pretty handily getting 30+ Depravity each game - and that's with lists that aren't built around abusing the mechanic. If Blissbarbs dropped to 100 points per grouping, you'd never not take three units of them because those three units spread out would easily give us 6+ Depravity points alone on the first turn. That's exactly the reason why units in our book are priced the way they are, because the moment you drop them down too much, you get a situation where our summoning stacks up stupidly fast; if you can easily and reliably summon 90 Daemonettes/3 Keepers/etc in a single game, do you really care if you can only summon one unit per turn? I sure as hell wouldn't. 

Also, saying the allegiance abilities were only 'tweaked slightly' is flat out disingenuous. Old Depravity was hero-exclusive, and everyone agreed it needed to be reworked. They removed the abusive elements (chain-summoning), added an extra summon point in the Fane so games don't solely break down into keeping heroes alive, and reworked it to where everything in the game generates it - meaning our army went from being virtually mono-build to suddenly everything having a place. New Locus is also a big change because it went from being a "I made a mistake in the movement phase but oh look I rolled a 3+, too bad!" to something that actually requires smart thinking to make the most of. It's incredible with 6" pile-ins and tagging units, and it's very helpful for stopping units from using pile-ins to secure objectives. The army plays completely differently because of those two changes. You can't just shove three Keepers in your opponents face and expect to win like the old days. That in itself is proof we got a significant rework. 

If you think there's nothing in the book that is strong for it's points, I mean no offence but I'm curious about how much play-time you've really invested in the book. Off the top of my head, Slickblades are great. Glutos is fantastic. Syll'Esske is good. Dexcessa is good (Synessa is weaker at the moment, but 3.0 may change that.) Sigvald is good (he is great in Lurid Haze.) Fiends are good - they get hard-countered by shooting, but what doesn't in Slaanesh? Keepers are good - they're not unstoppable combat beasts anymore, but they remain quality all-rounder support pieces. Exalted Chariots are, in a sense, deadlier than ever with the Depravity changes. The Masque is genuinely great. The Infernal Enrapturess is a fine anti-magic hero. Daemonettes are a solid horde unit. Heck, even Blissbarbs look overpriced but, as I've explained before, they're great for Slaanesh specifically (and not so good elsewhere.) The things that are overpriced, like Myrmidesh, Twinsouls, our generic mortal heroes, etc generally aren't overpriced by much, maybe needing 20 point drops at most - with Slaangors being the big exception, obviously.

Doing a 1 to 1 comparison of points of our book to others is also a fool's game because our book is built around a summoning mechanic, whereas books like Daughters of Khaine aren't. If you told me with a straight face that our book wouldn't be overpowered if our units were priced "the way they would be if not accounting for summoning" then I would call you a liar. The book is already proving to be strong in capable hands. It's not nearly as weak as some people would have you believe. I've literally turned people's heads with how I've performed against their strong meta lists using lists that aren't meant to be super competitive, and I don't consider myself that good of a player. This book is not easy to win with, and that's why it is developing the reputation it is, but it is most certainly not weak. 

I meant the host got little change  not the allegiance. I know allegiance got a massive change. Far as points go I never said anything about lowering the blissbarbs down to 100 point that would be excessive. I would 10 to 20 points lower depending on the unit.  I have not seen any unit that would require a 60 point drop outside slaangor which don't seem to have a good place currently. Also some units are in a very good point cost.

Comparing to other books is fair. In what world does a shard speaker cost as much as a bloodwrack shrine even taking in summoning and new aos into consideration. The closest equivalent to a shardspeaker is a chaos sorcerer and that 110. We do have units that compare to other books quite well within chaos. 

Some issues with the book will get better with new aos3. Aos 3 seems to be giving us the missing synergies and plays as long as you manage cp. It's clear with the twins and some models in slaanesh aos 3 was taken into consideration for pointing.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Poryague

[Poryague]

This will add some interesting mechanics.

[Sorrow]

Those rules do suggest that AoS 3. rules could lean our way, let us hope we stay on that course.