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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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46 minutes ago, CarkFish said:

I think my main concern is that they Tony leaks we've seen so far don't seem to hint at them reigning shooting in ... And my god it needs it .... I'm hopeful we see something substantial to curb it a touch

Absolutely, that one page on Warcom confirms you can still shoot into melee without penalty, and that's the obvious one that needs a minus to hit, so I doubt we'll see anything like move-and-fire penalties either. It's a real shame that there's not much you can do to curb shooting outside of engaging the unit in direct combat. 

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1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

Absolutely, that one page on Warcom confirms you can still shoot into melee without penalty, and that's the obvious one that needs a minus to hit, so I doubt we'll see anything like move-and-fire penalties either. It's a real shame that there's not much you can do to curb shooting outside of engaging the unit in direct combat. 

I'm a bit nervous about this too. Not even for us really (though it does suck for us, though not as much as Khorne and co.), but just for the health of the game in general. 

These worries could be totally quelled with extra rules and restrictions we haven't seen, so take it with a pinch of salt, so hope isn't lost. Terrain is our best bet, but terrain has its own issue - it's expensive and difficult to maneuver around if you have models with a lot of sticky out bits.

But still, it worries me because this was a good opportunity to address people's most common complaint - that units are taken off the board without any interaction. The fact that they chose to display nearly umchanged shooting rules is what worries me - it makes me think there are no changes. Even if they didn't want to show any new rules, I'm sure they could have shown movement (which I doubt has changed much). My worry is that they've not looked closely at what's been going on with the game at all in the last year and a bit. Without official tournaments, it may well be they've just turned a blind eye to Tzeentch and Seraphon and we have another 6 months of shooting. 

Also, how are people feeling about potential AoS wide point increases? I don't know if we'll be hit by them (though I imagine they will have already been written if we are so there's not much we can do about it now). If we're not hit by them, and things go up 25%, then Chaos Warriors may end up about 115. Still cheaper, but the gap between them and painbringers narrow. 

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1 hour ago, Enoby said:

But still, it worries me because this was a good opportunity to address people's most common complaint - that units are taken off the board without any interaction.

Well, this WarCom article was more about "Best rule-set ever". If they do one for each of the 8 things Sigmar talked in the other video, then they will eventually talk about heroic actions, beastial actions and reactive command abilities in every phase, wich are the new things that actually focus in adding interaction. I still expect defensive CAs in the shooting phase.

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On 6/2/2021 at 9:52 AM, CarkFish said:

Hi chaps .... I've been constantly changing my mind about which faction to play going into third.... I adore the Slaanesh vibe.... but.. I've heard some pretty awful things said about the ruleset.... How bad is it really?

I think it is one of the better designed battletomes (just can do with a slight reduction in unit cost and... the poor Slaangors) and its tabletop performance is strong.

A common statement is "the tome lacks synergy" but on in its the most base sense, e.g. there is little in the ways of X unit boosts Y unit or allegiances/sub-factions which focus on particular units. This is in my opinion a GOOD thing since it means at no point will you be forced into using a particular unit in a particular sub-faction. You are able to build your own synergies.

This is further enhanced by the abilities and auras in the battletome. Very few of them are conditional and at most they divide between mortal/daemon units but most of the time it is friendly model. This is also due to many abilities are actually debuffs, e.g. friendly models attacking X unit get re-rolls of 1 or enemy unit get a -1 to whatever.

What this means for the army is that there is synergy, it simply doesn't rest squarely on abusing mechanics in the list-building phase. Sure, we can do it and lean heavily into Seeker Cavalcade and it is probably our most "meta-chasing"-option for tournaments BUT most factions has this issue of one (maybe two) builds which are "the best." The synergy in HoS is something we layer ourselves, we decide which units support each other, and we decide on what unit to summon to best impact the battlefield. So if we take tactical versus strategic, then HoS is a very tactical army. We can, of course, make a clear battleplan and eventually know when and what to summon, I'm just saying it is a rewarding experience which can be as fluid as you like.

As mentioned, Lurid Haze is very popular (and for good reason, great mobility and CA). The best part about starting out is that you can change sub-faction as you please. None of your units will suddenly being unusable so you'll never get that horrible feeling "oh, I wish I was..." just because you happened to like the wrong unit in the wrong sub-faction. Personally, I'm enjoying Godseekers because of how many times that +1 charge has saved me and it helps to get footsloggers into combat quicker... Buuut, again, I can just decide on something else and play that for a session.

Oh, never let getting depravity take priority unless you're going for a play which nets you the objective. Also, don't tunnel vision on summoning a keeper, in many cases being able to plonk down 20-30 daemonettes can be a game-winning move. For some armies, one of the daemonic characters might turn the tide, and so on. Summoning is fantastic tactical asset (though limited by models you have :P).

Hope you have fun and welcome to the most fun side of chaos damnation!

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Looking at these new rules, I have some hot takes:

- Heroic actions look good for us; we can get our keeper hitting and wounding on 2s no problem, and we can heal them nicely as our heroes have good bravery (good for Glutos and Sigvald tbh as they can struggle to heal) 

- Monstrous actions are good; Dexcessa's speed and fly means they can get into a faction terrain piece no problem and destroy it. The other ones are also nice but situational

- Invaders is looking really good; we have three generals, and that means we may be the only faction that can benefit from having a general on the field (big command bubble) and also having a general slain for Heroic Leadership simultaneously

- Our battleshock problem matters a lot less now, if issuing a command from a unit leader can be the same commands as we currently have

- Only loser is Synessa if units can just use all commands on themselves anyway. However, I think this is very important to sit back and see the full rules; there would be no point at all giving heroes a larger range for commanding if units could just command themselves anyway, so I think there's a good chance that the generic commands are different for heroes and units. At least Synessa can heal herself, and I'm going to guess benefit from cover judging by the LoS change

Overall, it looks interesting for us. Especially for Dexcessa as a cheap seek and destroy missile for faction terrain (considering that they're cheap and can use heroic inspiration too, so they're not too easy to take down)

 

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Thing to not though ranges increased for generic command abilities they are wholly within range vs within range like they are now. also chaos warshrine will be able to use commands upto 18 inches. Heroic actions as written can happen in your hero phase and your opponents same for monster actions in the charge phase. Meaning you can do more things in each person's phases.

Edited by Poryague
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The lurid haze alpha strike will be strong

-sigvald goes in, pops finest hour and lurid haze buff for all his buffs, fights twice due to keeper baby sitter, 10 slickblades tie something else up and keeper makes a charge if it can

-turn 2 either sigvald dies and you move buffs to keeper and give it finest hour or sigvald carries on

repelling this will require likely half to 3/4 of opponents forces giving you time to set up rest of board. If you can also fit dexcessa in she would be 2nd or 3rd turn threat aswell

 

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8 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

-sigvald goes in, pops finest hour and lurid haze buff for all his buffs, fights twice due to keeper baby sitter, 10 slickblades tie something else up and keeper makes a charge if it can

I wonder if we'll be keeping the generic re-roll 1s CAs? If so Sigvald will be extremely difficult to stop with a 1+ armour save, re-rolling natural ones and with a 4++. 

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Some of The points make a bit more sense with these rules or they would if DoK didn't get ridiculous across the board point reductions. Points went up on all reprinted models in BR Kragen I can kinda understand it with these rules. But again why the hell was DoK reduced. I can actually see point cost go up for a lot of armies.

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Just now, Poryague said:

Some of The points make a bit more sense with these rules or they would if DoK didn't get ridiculous across the board point reductions. Points went up on all reprinted models in BR Kragen I can kinda understand it with these rules. But again why the hell was DoK reduced. I can actually see point cost go up for a lot of armies.

I think DoK was meant to come out in 2020 alongside BR: Morathi, so their points may have not been adjusted - or we can hope!

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21 minutes ago, MothmanDraws said:

-sigvald goes in, pops finest hour and lurid haze buff for all his buffs, fights twice due to keeper baby sitter, 10 slickblades tie something else up and keeper makes a charge if it can

Slight issue is that you can't teleport via Lurid Haze and use Finest Hour in the same go as you won't be there on the hero phase :( that said, you can use it turn 2 and it's very rare for Sigvald to just die, and we can still use other heroic abilities.

That said, depending on generic commands I think we could be looking really nice and creative after AoS 3 :) And if these new generic battalions interact with commands and give new commands then Synessa could be a nice take

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10 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think DoK was meant to come out in 2020 alongside BR: Morathi, so their points may have not been adjusted - or we can hope!

Unless there book was meant to come out a lot sooner which is believable. These new general rules would have been worked on at the same time. In our book some points make and The point increases in kragnos make sense. Now that we have seen some new rules. There are units that are still over costed but not as many.

Another interesting thing foot heroes ( rules as written in what they showed) can heal each hero phase. Sigvald could heal each hero phase as an example. So foot heroes can just heal when needed in hero phase so you need to kill them before the next hero phase starts. Limiting factor being 1 hero can do a hero thing.

Edited by Poryague
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3 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Another interesting thing foot heroes ( rules as written in what they showed) can heal each hero phase. Sigvald could heal each hero phase as an example. So foot heroes can just heal when needed in hero phase so you need to kill them before the next hero phase starts.

The Masque just shrugging as her unique ability stops being unique

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21 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

 

I wonder if we'll be keeping the generic re-roll 1s CAs? If so Sigvald will be extremely difficult to stop with a 1+ armour save, re-rolling natural ones and with a 4++. 

So basically Sigvald becomes the seeker missile duelist he was always meant to be, his own personal Death Star that MUST be dealt with and in this edition, in Lurid Haze, buffed properly is a steal at 260, right? Glad mine is painted. People were saying he wasn’t worth it when first released, and now he looks like the strongest thing in our book, played and supported correctly. I am going to have SO much fun watching him smash everything he can before getting troll-stomped. Lol

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2 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Unless there book was meant to come out a lot sooner which is believable. These new general rules would have been worked on at the same time. In our book some points make and The point increases in kragnos make sense. Now that we have seen some new rules. There are units that are still over costed but not as many.

Another interesting thing all foot heroes ( rules as written in what they showed) can heal each hero phase. Sigvald could heal each hero phase as an example. So foot heroes can just heal when needed in hero phase so you need to kill them before the next hero phase starts.

Only one heroic action per turn. So only 1 of your heroes can heal, and then you are loosing the chance to do any of the other actions. You can do them both in your turn and the enemy turn tho.

Except the dispell one that should be casting an extra spell instead (poor Synessa) I think the other three heroic actions are quite good in different situations.

Dexcessa and Synessa having access to both heroic and monster actions is a good buff. Their average damage goes up with stomping/titanic duel. Watch out for Roar too, good that they can shut down enemy CAs but enemy monsters can now shut down our KoS CA too.

Synessa unlimited range CAs is gonna be useless unless there are special CAs for heroes that unit champions cannot perfom. Otherwise it will only affect non-hero chariots.

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6 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

The Masque just shrugging as her unique ability stops being unique

She can of course do this twice now… And with all of her buffs is practically unkillable. Or, she can do the attack one and the heal one in the same turn. Another character who greatly improved in usability

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1 minute ago, Yoid said:

Only one heroic action per turn. So only 1 of your heroes can heal, and then you are loosing the chance to do any of the other actions. You can do them both in your turn and the enemy turn tho.

Except the dispell one that should be casting an extra spell instead (poor Synessa) I think the other three heroic actions are quite good in different situations.

Dexcessa and Synessa having access to both heroic and monster actions is a good buff. Their average damage goes up with stomping/titanic duel. Watch out for Roar too, good that they can shut down enemy CAs but enemy monsters can now shut down our KoS CA too.

Synessa unlimited range CAs is gonna be useless unless there are special CAs for heroes that unit champions cannot perfom. Otherwise it will only affect non-hero chariots.

They did say new command abilities and reaction type commands. So we still have missing information.

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4 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Synessa unlimited range CAs is gonna be useless unless there are special CAs for heroes that unit champions cannot perfom. Otherwise it will only affect non-hero chariots.

I'm guessing there is - or even ones attached to battalions. Why? Well, what's the point of heroes having different command ranges if 90% of units don't need them to command.

That said, it does give us unlimited range +1 to save still, which is nice. 

I reckon things like charge reactions will be unit commands, and inspiring presence (and the other strong generics) will be hero commands, and battalions may give extras.

Edited by Enoby
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1 minute ago, Poryague said:

I do think we are missing a good heroic action for wizards heroes. Maybe a reroll an attempt to cast 1 more spell something.

I feel the same. Wasted oportunity. But it seems like every battletome will have his own heroic actions too, so maybe when Slaanesh get an update someday...

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I would like to see like a command reaction evasive maneuver -1 to shooting attacks. Even if it's tied to being within some range of terrain as a restriction. Your not just gonna stand there and get shot your going to try to evade.

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Hey guys, long time lurker but i haven’t actually written anything yet. I don’t know if the new rules were already been pointed out but i want to try and give a breakdown from the top of my inexperience with slaanesh ( i will play my first game with slaanesh next week hopefully). 

So, starting off, i think it’s safe to say that we could be the best chaos faction around ( i play mainly tzeentch) with hero-centered builds, sure, losing supreme sybarites sucks but still. Also, now we have the potential to generate command points similar to seraphon if not better, so Invaders is by a long stretch our best subfaction ( RAW three generals means three extra cp’s per turn and if we lose one it’s not that big of a deal cause we can generate extra cp on a 2+ followed by another 2+ from the rod of misrule). When it comes to units, i think Dexcessa is the clear winner by far (said by someone who gave himself the specific task to make synessa work, so sad) the ability to give her +1 to wound and +1 save means that she’s rapidly becoming our best cost-effective unit in the tome, not to mention exploding sixes and the double activation from the keeper. Also, if an FAQ clarifies whether she actually is a greater demon or not, you can smash units into oblivion with effectively impact hits, or you can swing without worry too much about retaliation thanks to the locus and the ability to shut down commands for a turn. The other unit that surprised me was the herald on exalted chariot, in invaders pretty good, but in godseekers she can become an absolute monster with that +1 wound and save and amazing healing potential between spells and heroic actions and that +1 to wound is something that most slaanesh heroes desperately need. All in all, i think that from a very strong mid/high tier we can easily become top 5 or even top 3 among the best armies in the game.

what do you guys think?

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