AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Rock Lobster]

4 minutes ago, MattyP said:

Does the seekers' soul hunters ability stack? Nothing says "until such and such phase"

It just say 'in the next combat phase' so that would be the next combat phase is when you add the plus one.

[Rock Lobster]

Just now, jackmcmahon said:

Wait, can you take one item from left and one from right side of realm artefacts if they are in same realm? (In matched play?)

yes

[jackmcmahon]

Just now, Rock Lobster said:

yes

That's how I initially read it, but always see people saying you can only take one. Figured it was erratad or faqd somewhere. Awesome this changes everything

[MattyP]

19 minutes ago, carnith said:

They say next combat phase. So if on the following turn they do not get into combat then the buff is wasted. 

It says "add 1 to attacks characteristic of this units melee weapons in the next combat phase".... So if they are in combat for 3 combat phases (doesn't specify mine or opponent's) and a model is slain each phase then they'd get  4 attacks each in 4th combat phase....right?  Doesn't say it goes away.

Edited May 30, 2019 by MattyP

[jackmcmahon]

11 minutes ago, MattyP said:

It says "add 1 to attacks characteristic of this units melee weapons in the next combat phase".... So if they are in combat for 3 combat phases (doesn't specify mine or opponent's) and a model is slain each phase then they'd get  4 attacks each in 4th combat phase....doesn't say it goes away.  Not understanding how the buff is wasted 

It says next combat phase specifically, so if they kill in first combat phase the buff is specifically for the second combat phase (next) and not the third, 4th, etc 

[MattyP]

2 minutes ago, jackmcmahon said:

It says next combat phase specifically, so if they kill in first combat phase the buff is specifically for the second combat phase (next) and not the third, 4th, etc 

Ah, ok. Gotcha thanks for explaining 

[jackmcmahon]

Oooh I see what you are saying, though.  Actually, now I think it could be read either way.  I think the way you are reading it would be stated "at the start of the next combat phase." Instead of "in the next combat phase."

Haha, damn-a day after FAQ released

[MattyP]

2 minutes ago, jackmcmahon said:

Oooh I see what you are saying, though.  Actually, now I think it could be read either way.  I think the way you are reading it would be stated "at the start of the next combat phase." Instead of "in the next combat phase."

Haha, damn-a day after FAQ released

This is my second army and played them for the first time last night and that question came up. I will have more I'm sure lol

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Rock Lobster said:

Sounds good.

I think I'll give a couple of them a little run out in a silly list Saturday next week at a 1 day tournament. My final list for the capital city bloodbath in August I wanted to use beasts of chaos in my slaanesh but am loathe to buy and paint without knowing GHB points costs this coming month so in the meantime I am going to play fun.

I am currently looking at this (no bodies, just characters):

Invaders (Ghyran)

Keeper - 360 (blade of hammerhal Ghyra) (best of the best)

Keeper - 360 (Ghyrstrike)

Bladebringer on exalted chariot - 220

Bladebringer on exalted chariot - 220

Epitome - 200 (Rod of misrule)

Character battalion - 120

5 Helstriders - 100

5 Helstriders - 100

5 Helstriders - 100

Seekers battalion - 140

Cogs - 60

1980

I dont think it is going to do very well, no bodies to hold objectives, but I like the schenanigans possible with the 6" pile in from the helstriders and there is enough CP in the list to allow a keeper and bladebringer to pair up, both attack twice and shred anything. Both keepers have a helpful killy artifact.

The invaders keeper with best of the best can be almost as killy as the pretenders keeper if you sacrifice a wound on the fane for rerolls to hit you can get 3 attacks with the claws, rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound to deal some real hurt.

Although from your post I quite like the idea of the sacrificing of an item on the bladebringer for the chance of rerolling all attacks, very tasty. I think I could change to seekers, give one of the bladebringers the cameo of the dark prince to snatch the CP turn 1 and then sacrifice it for rerolls. Disadvantages - less CP over the game, and keeper loses the reroll to wound which makes her less reliable, advantages - possibility to have reroll hits on a bladebringer for good, +1 to charge, potentially run and charge or retreat and charge on keeper. What do you guys think?

I like the idea of the speedy godseekers keeper, but the builds I have seen with the fire cloak etc concern me as there are no offensive items of worth in Aqushy or in the seekers artifacts and the keeper feels like it will flub attacks after jumping screens. Anyone had any experience with this? I could just have a non-flying keeper who can run and charge or retreat, but without the fly that retreat and charge or run and charge is not nearly as valuable.

 

I think the list looks solid, I've been tinkering with something similar in Godseekers but I'm probably not going to want to pony up the cash for a second keeper any time soon. You could try dropping the seekers battallion and cogs to upgrade one unit of Helstriders to 30 daemonettes if you're really worried about bodies, or just make sure you focus your first summon on grabbing as big of a unit as possible. 

The speed keeper is definitely swingy, but I've found double piling usually helps even it out. Haven't had a ton of games though so it might turn out to be too risky in the end. You could always do the reroll hits to the keeper on the first turn and the bladebringer the next turn since she might have issues charging turn 1 anyway. 

[jackmcmahon]

27 minutes ago, MattyP said:

This is my second army and played them for the first time last night and that question came up. I will have more I'm sure lol

ive got 5 games before book and about 7 post book and still manage to mess something up every game.

[Rock Lobster]

17 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

I think the list looks solid, I've been tinkering with something similar in Godseekers but I'm probably not going to want to pony up the cash for a second keeper any time soon. You could try dropping the seekers battallion and cogs to upgrade one unit of Helstriders to 30 daemonettes if you're really worried about bodies, or just make sure you focus your first summon on grabbing as big of a unit as possible. 

The speed keeper is definitely swingy, but I've found double piling usually helps even it out. Haven't had a ton of games though so it might turn out to be too risky in the end. You could always do the reroll hits to the keeper on the first turn and the bladebringer the next turn since she might have issues charging turn 1 anyway. 

Thats true, going with the sacrifice turn 1 gives a 5/6 chance of really killing somehing that needs dying turn 1. It just means the rest of the keepers are quite floppy, no real weapons.

I am on the fence about swapping out the 2 exalted chariots for a 3rd keeper and either losing he cogs for an enrapturess, or taking 2 more endless spells to be a nuisance such as the mirror and geminids, or command points, or a little 80 point exalted hero who just sits behind the fane making sure I keep a character alive and giving me +1 on my command point roll from battalion.

I wouldn't drop the battalion on the hellstriders as that 6" pilein allows you to really mess with people. Imagine someone frustration when in your turn you park 6" away from 20 sequitors on a corner, then pile in to just inside 3" with the first model, then he will only get to attack with 2 guys and you have locked a 400 point unit in combat for his entire turn for just 100 points. That is valuable for tying stuff up while the keepers are elsewhere. You can get 3 of those annoying units for the cost of 1 daemonette unit.

[Enoby]

Anyone found a solid way to deal with Hearthguard beserkers? They seem very tough to kill and do a load of damage back so we can't safely stay in combat with them.

[jackmcmahon]

51 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Anyone found a solid way to deal with Hearthguard beserkers? They seem very tough to kill and do a load of damage back so we can't safely stay in combat with them.

Have not played vs them. 

Here is my guess anyway: go for their support.  Possibly tie them up with weak units until you've taken enough of their other units out to focus them down with a huge force.

  If it's for games where you know each other's faction before going into game: endless spells.

Purple sun to "slay" and go around their 4+ fnp

Geminids /boc horn to debuff them

Non-predatory spells to lock them into a non-strategic area.

[CB42]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

Anyone found a solid way to deal with Hearthguard beserkers? They seem very tough to kill and do a load of damage back so we can't safely stay in combat with them.

You can kill anything other than 20+ Hearthguard berzerkers; don’t even try to kill them. Play keep away.

If they’ve got 600 points in 30 H Zerkers with a 4” move, don’t fight them - play keep away. Mortal wounds won’t help much with their 4+ shrug. I actually recommend sending in a Keeper early on against their Vulkites or something to fight then die and generate a ton of depravity, then use that depravity to summon a bunch of 10 man Daemonette squads. Run and move these squads 3.1” away strung out in an 18” line from the H Zerks and that’ll slow them down. If you have endless spells like Prismatic Palisades or soulsnare shackles, use these as well to slow them down. Anywhere where the H Zerks are not, you can go fight and kill. Squads of 15 H Zerks are doable, but difficult to bring down - I killed 12 with a Keeper of Secrets and then double activating 12 Seekers into them, so I threw a ton of dice at the board and only ended up killing a dozen.

Wherever they don’t have 20+ H Zerks, fight them and hold those objectives. If any heroes leave themselves exposed, kill those first. But accept that anything that gets charged by the H Zerks will do nothing and then just die, and play around that fact.

[Darkfine]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:08 PM, Rentar said:

The trick here is to remember that, during a charge, models move one at a time. It is not the unit that moves, but the models.

So, with this sentence in 4 parts:

1. Roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move.
2. On a 2+ that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
3. If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move,
4. but do not allocate the mortal wounds until after all models from this unit have moved.

Seems simple enough. 

Step 1: Move 1 model.
Step 2: Determine number of enemy units within 1" of that model.
Step 3: Roll a d6, on a 2+ that enemy units suffers D3 mortal wounds BUT DO NOT YET ALLOCATE THESE WOUNDS. Suffering and allocating wounds are two separate steps.
Step 4: If there are more models to be moved, repeat steps 1-3 until there are no more models within this unit. Once there are no more models within this unit to be moved, proceed to step 5.
Step 5: Allocate the mortal wounds rolled for in step 3.

Example:

X  X  X  X  X  O  O  O  O  O [X and O represent enemy models from X unit and O unit, each 1" apart.]


               Y1  Y2  Y3 [Y represent models from the chariot unit]
 

Roll for charge.

Step 1:
X  X  X  X  X  O  O  O  O  O
                        Y2

               Y1         Y3   
Step 2: A model from both X and O are within 1" of Y2.
Step 3: Roll a d6 for X, roll a D6 for O. For each 2+, roll a D3 to determine mortal wounds suffered.
Step 4: Go back to step 1.
Step 1: 
X  X  X  X  X  O  O  O  O  O
               Y1    Y2

                              Y3   
Step 2: While Y2 is within range of both X and O, Y1 (the model which just moved) is only within 1" of X.
Step 3: Roll a d6 for X. If 2+, roll a D3 to determine mortal wounds suffered.
Step 4: Go back to step 1.
Step 1: 
X  X  X  X  X  O  O  O  O  O
               Y1    Y2     Y3
Step 2: While Y2 is within range of both X and O and Y1 is within 1" of X, Y2 (the model which just moved) is only within 1" of O.
Step 3: Roll a d6 for O. If 2+, roll a D3 to determine mortal wounds suffered.
Step 4: No more models to be moved, so step 5.
Step 5: Allocate wounds.

 

Roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model (this is not a dangling participle, and therefore the earlier segment should not be construed as referring to any model of the unit as a whole, as will be clarified later. It clearly refers to "the" as the aforementioned "a model") from this unit finishes a charge move (referring specifically to the the model). On a 2+ that enemy unit (referring to each individual enemy unit) suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this unit (this, therefore the chariot unit) has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move (i.e. repeating the first sentence), but do not allocate the mortal wounds until after all models from this unit have moved.

To clarify with regards to the "the model"

<<Roll a dice for each enemy unit>> <<that is within 1" of>> <<a model from this unit>> after <<the model from this unit>> <<finishes a charge move>>.

Each segment in parentheses is a different segment of the sentence. You cannot argue that <<a model from this unit>> refers to ANY model, because if so, the "the" in <<the model from this unit>> no longer refers to anything, and becomes a dangling participle, which is no longer grammatically sound. Were that to be the correct interpretation, then both the "a" and "the" would be replaced with "any". While I would never say that Games Workshop never makes a grammatical error, I would definitely argue that, absent a clarification to the negative, we should always take the most grammatical interpretation as correct (and if there are at least two equally correct interpretations, then the one that makes more sense should be chosen).

If anyone wants to continue this dispute, please explain how exactly the "the" is not a dangling participle should we consider the "a" as referring to "any model from this unit".

Sorry I ducked out on this but life happened!

In your example you are arbitrarily changing “a model” to “that model”.

The rule is fairly explicit in its use of “a model”.

To say “within 1” of any model from this unit after any model from this unit finishes a charge move” doesn’t work as it implies game states that can’t exist.

Regardless of anything else, chariots A, B and C are still “a model from this unit”.

There is plenty of precedent for GW to use the term “charging model” or “model finishing a charge”.

So either whoever penned this felt like being excessively wordy to the games detriment (a likely scenario) or every charge does indeed trigger a check.

[Rentar]

12 minutes ago, Darkfine said:

Sorry I ducked out on this but life happened!

In your example you are arbitrarily changing “a model” to “that model”.

The rule is fairly explicit in its use of “a model”.

To say “within 1” of any model from this unit after any model from this unit finishes a charge move” doesn’t work as it implies game states that can’t exist.

Regardless of anything else, chariots A, B and C are still “a model from this unit”.

There is plenty of precedent for GW to use the term “charging model” or “model finishing a charge”.

So either whoever penned this felt like being excessively wordy to the games detriment (a likely scenario) or every charge does indeed trigger a check.

Please specify what game states you are referring to and how exactly "the" is no longer a dangling participle under the understanding you are working under.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rentar

[Darkfine]

A game state where in you can have enemy models within 1” of a model from a charging unit before legally performing the charge move ie. “charging out of combat”.  Now, an argument could be made that what I’m positing could also lead to that game state until you consider how the rule is written.  

On to participles and their attempts to hang on.  

It differentiates the two subjects of the sentence.  On the one hand you have “a model from this unit(A,B,C) and on the other you have “the charging model”.   If “a model” refers to any chariot then we still need to identify which model is forcing the trigger check (the one performing the charge).

The last sentence of the rule further reinforces the thought.

Again I’ll point out, models “A and C” do not cease to be “a model from the unit” while model “B” is performing a charge move.

There are a few ways to clearly write “After this model completes a charge move roll a dice for each enemy unit with 1 inch”.

I play Nurgle, that particular rule pops up a lot.  

Just for clarity, I don’t own any chariots and regardless of how the rule works I am not going to.  The model looks silly and the unit isn’t a hero.  That said the rule is poorly phrased at the very least.

[Dr.E]

17 hours ago, carnith said:

@Enoby try them with the +1 dmg artifact from realm of light. They are great at character assassination and had one kill a cygor in one go

Wow, I haven't thought of this before. Thanks for the enlightenment! I'd like to try this someday.

[Rentar]

3 hours ago, Darkfine said:

A game state where in you can have enemy models within 1” of a model from a charging unit before legally performing the charge move ie. “charging out of combat”.  Now, an argument could be made that what I’m positing could also lead to that game state until you consider how the rule is written.  

On to participles and their attempts to hang on.  

It differentiates the two subjects of the sentence.  On the one hand you have “a model from this unit(A,B,C) and on the other you have “the charging model”.   If “a model” refers to any chariot then we still need to identify which model is forcing the trigger check (the one performing the charge).

The last sentence of the rule further reinforces the thought.

Again I’ll point out, models “A and C” do not cease to be “a model from the unit” while model “B” is performing a charge move.

There are a few ways to clearly write “After this model completes a charge move roll a dice for each enemy unit with 1 inch”.

I play Nurgle, that particular rule pops up a lot.  

 Just for clarity, I don’t own any chariots and regardless of how the rule works I am not going to.  The model looks silly and the unit isn’t a hero.  That said the rule is poorly phrased at the very least.

Look, the initial "a" is an indefinite article, which is used to introduce "a model", and then the definite article "the" is used to refer to the same "model" that was introduced, which is why it's a "the" rather than another indefinite article such as "any" or another "a".

Since "the" is a definite article, and has no other possible frame of reference, it must be referring to the prior indefinite "a" article.

Go run it by a linguist if you must.

[SwampHeart]

14 hours ago, Enoby said:

Anyone found a solid way to deal with Hearthguard beserkers? They seem very tough to kill and do a load of damage back so we can't safely stay in combat with them.

I've played against the build twice now - lost the first one, won the second. Just like @CB42 says you avoid the Deathstar and deal with the rest of the army - Vulkites are an absolute farm for DP and FS support characters are very flimsy. I think if you just stay focused on the mission and really just manging the impact of their 600 point bomb you'll win that match up more often than not. As an aside I've also found my Great Bray Shaman very useful in this match up as his warscroll spell (Devolve) is excellent for pulling apart synergy driven combos and letting you clean house. 

[Rock Lobster]

15 hours ago, Enoby said:

Anyone found a solid way to deal with Hearthguard beserkers? They seem very tough to kill and do a load of damage back so we can't safely stay in combat with them.

Go for the seeker battalion for the 6" pile in. Have 3 units of 5 hellstriders filling out your core. In your turn, make a snake with your 5 hellstriders pointed at the corner of the enemy unit and move or run to within 6". In combat pile in to 2.999999". They then get to pile into you 3" - since you have only 1 model at the front and you are hitting a corner probably only 2-3 models max can fight. As long as you keep your banner bearer a the front you are 10W with a 4+ sv and bravery 8. You will stick around to prevent them doing anything other than retreating in their turn. In your next turn do the same again and watch them rage. Turn 1 they will do nothing anyway, Turn 2-4 you can force them to be useless while you clean up the rest of the army. Turn 5, you are winning on points or have killed the rest of the army and can combo charge your whole army in for fun.

[Kramer]

At launch there was a backlash for not having mortals... I finally got the book and am still really excited to build a mixed and a mortal list. 

Anybody else going full (or close to full) mortal list? 

[Rock Lobster]

23 minutes ago, Kramer said:

At launch there was a backlash for not having mortals... I finally got the book and am still really excited to build a mixed and a mortal list. 

Anybody else going full (or close to full) mortal list? 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the GHB points costs, there may be good options after that. Slaves to darkness are currently very poor, the lowest win % in stats of any of the big factions with lots of kits, just 25%. So at the moment very overcosted for what they do.

Also there is good odds of eventually getting a slaves to darkness book, there could be some great stuff in there. Right now I would not commit to it unless I know where they stand or you will lose a lot of games compared to using beasts of chaos allies who are really solid.

[Midjithero]

43 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Go for the seeker battalion for the 6" pile in. Have 3 units of 5 hellstriders filling out your core. In your turn, make a snake with your 5 hellstriders pointed at the corner of the enemy unit and move or run to within 6". In combat pile in to 2.999999". They then get to pile into you 3" - since you have only 1 model at the front and you are hitting a corner probably only 2-3 models max can fight. As long as you keep your banner bearer a the front you are 10W with a 4+ sv and bravery 8. You will stick around to prevent them doing anything other than retreating in their turn. In your next turn do the same again and watch them rage. Turn 1 they will do nothing anyway, Turn 2-4 you can force them to be useless while you clean up the rest of the army. Turn 5, you are winning on points or have killed the rest of the army and can combo charge your whole army in for fun.

Do you think the Masque is good for this situation as well?  Have her pile in a corner of the unit to avoid, retreat and pole back in shenanigans?!?

[Rock Lobster]

10 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

Do you think the Masque is good for this situation as well?  Have her pile in a corner of the unit to avoid, retreat and pole back in shenanigans?!?

Yes, good shout. Masque would be great for this, the 5+ 4+ makes her very durable and no risk of battleshock + heal D3. The key is you need enough survivability so that you dont get nailed in their turn and free the unit up so dont pile in and attack or you will take a lot of hits and with fewer wounds could get sniped with an endless spell or normal spell.

The key is surviving your opponents phases correctly and positioning based on liklihood. If the enemy has little magic damage and shooting you can be a little more cavalier, perhaps on weak units pile in and get some attacks in for free and you will survive into their next combat phase. Against armies with some shooting and mediocre magic damage you will likely die in their shooting phase so position your units assuming the unit will not move but could still make a charge. Against armies with strong magic or damage abilities in the hero phase the strategy may not work as they can delete your unit and then theirs breaks free to move and charge. However they can tank a lot of mortal wounds so it may be worth it still. If the masque has only taken 1 wound in the previous combat phase, that means the enemy has to do 8 wounds to nail her. Thats 4 typical endless spells or 2 pendulum equivalents plus a magic missile on average. If she takes that kind of damage rather than it going into your keepers, that is really nice.