AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Yoid]

Another funny thing that I noticed, Dexcessa is wielding a different staff in the art than in the model. The one in the art looks bigger and better fit for combat, while the one in the actual model is being hold in a strange way to be used as a weapon. I wonder if the guy that build the model did it wrong (due to both twins sharing the same kit) and they got to push with it for the article (being new model monday and so). That would explain why both twins got the same tip on the staff, and why Dexcessa's staff dosn't seem that much larger or being hold properly as a weapon.

Or maybe simply the art was different...

[Enoby]

What do people think of the suspected AoS 3 rules? 

If they 'leak' is correct, we'll be hurt by:

- Losing seeker cavalcade (losing other in book battalions is not as much of an issue)

- No changes to MW shooting but charging people becomes harder 

- Capping -1 to hit (though tbh, it's probably for the best - we also don't ever stack buffs so no loss there from capping +1 to hit too)

- No depraved drove anymore

We'll be helped by:

- As we're generally quite squishy, so charge reactions can help

- We can spend CP quickly on +1 to save, attack twice, and battleshock immunity and regen all of these points back 

- Our blissbarb units will be better relatively 

- Deepstrike often comes from a battalion but ours doesn't

Edited April 23, 2021 by Enoby

[Yoid]

12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

What do people think of the suspected AoS 3 rules? 

Any suspected rule in particular? Or just the typical speculation?

-Probably a nerf to shooting, like an improved Look Out Sir.
-Probably a nerf to first turn/double turn advantage, like preventig double turn to happen between the first and second round of the game.
-Probably an improved bravery system.
-Probably an improved terrain system.

Into the unlikely/wishful thinking:

-An improved list building with more freedom in battlelines but more limitations in heroes/behemoths/elites.
-More interactivity in the shooting phase, like being back and forth the same way as the combat phase, and being able to activate non-shooting units to improve their defense (something like raising shields or hunkering down).
-An improved Command Points/Command Abilities system with more CPs to expend and more tactical decisions to make (like each army having his own 6 generic CAs and generating 2CPs a turn instead of one)
-A rework to the command trait/artifacts system to make heroes more customizable (like each hero choosing a trait and artifact, or having to pay a few extra points for traits and artifacts but having no limit, then the general having two traits, two artifacts, or an special list of traits and artifacts only for him.)
-Named characters that are generals fixed in some way (like each having some special rule/improvement while being the general that is worth enough)
-A rework to battalions that detach them from the drop wars and the CP wars, so we can make battalions be cool due to their rules and not some abstract unepic gameplay mechanics.

And probably more things that I cannot remember right now.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

36 minutes ago, Enoby said:

What do people think of the suspected AoS 3 rules? 

If the list lab video is to be believed it kinda hurts us. The loss of seeker cavalcade will make cavalry lists harder or should i say simpler but less effective to pilot. Capping debuffs also hurts lists like glutos + fiends. The buff capping I expected tho since it's done a lot to help 40k. The new objectives sound weird, mission+secondaries+one picked at list creation? It's interesting and leads to a different kind of list tailoring. I do wonder if it'll be like 40k where each battletome will ahve unique secondary objective choices. The main thing we need to wait on before coming to an opinion (if this leak is true that is) is if warscrolls are being changed to work better within this new rule set

[Yoid]

44 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

If the list lab video is to be believed it kinda hurts us. The loss of seeker cavalcade will make cavalry lists harder or should i say simpler but less effective to pilot. Capping debuffs also hurts lists like glutos + fiends. The buff capping I expected tho since it's done a lot to help 40k. The new objectives sound weird, mission+secondaries+one picked at list creation? It's interesting and leads to a different kind of list tailoring. I do wonder if it'll be like 40k where each battletome will ahve unique secondary objective choices. The main thing we need to wait on before coming to an opinion (if this leak is true that is) is if warscrolls are being changed to work better within this new rule set

Oh, those changes. Really interesting leaks.

Im really pleased with them, it seems like there is much more than i expected to AoS 3.0. Some things may seem wrong like the CA that allow you to shoot when being charged, but im sure there will be other things to balance that, like units that charge having an innate buff, or special CA buffs for them. It sound a lot like the thing I wrote about a revamped CA system. The battalions stuff sound a lot like the revamped list building I wanted too. Removing faction battalions will encourage the presence of more army specific rules or sub-faction rules, and that may be too what I wanted about rules of battalions being more relevant.

[Sorrow]

@Yoid

Very good observation, we might actually get some new Daemons. Perhaps a new Herald or something completely different?

The more I look at Twins, the more I love them, both embody a beautiful duality of Slaanesh.

From our private conversation, the Twins seem like magnificent models for you and your girlfriend.

[Sorrow]

@Enoby

Honestly, we need to see what BR: Kragnos will bring to us, from rules for the Twins, to I hope new sub-factions. Then when we know that, if can start to predict things.

Also, I would suggest that you close the poll at the end of the month. We need that data properly analyzed and sent to GW.

[Enoby]

32 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

@Enoby

Honestly, we need to see what BR: Kragnos will bring to us, from rules for the Twins, to I hope new sub-factions. Then when we know that, if can start to predict things.

Also, I would suggest that you close the poll at the end of the month. We need that data properly analyzed and sent to GW.

We've got 329 responses so far, so I think that's a good amount  

I am wondering what people think on this - should we wait until the twins before sending anything off, or should we just send it asap? I ask because the twins may turn things around - but on the other hand we could be waiting a long time and end up missing our 'deadline'

[Yoid]

24 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

@Yoid

Very good observation, we might actually get some new Daemons. Perhaps a new Herald or something completely different?

The more I look at Twins, the more I love them, both embody a beautiful duality of Slaanesh.

From our private conversation, the Twins seem like magnificent models for you and your girlfriend.

Yes indeed, we are very excited for the twins, although I don't know if I can afford both.

Im also planning to update some of the lore on Qatieta for my next attempt into Black Library based on this Newborn event. She being born from the echo of Slaanesh within his empty palace while the god is absent was more fitting for the previous state of the story. Right now im thinking she may be born from what the Newborn discarded about himself, like if the Newborn matured into this perfect twins form assimilating all of Slaanesh glorious virtues, the leftovers were all the Slaanesh disgraceful weaknesses, and that eventually take the form of Qatieta, a KoS that embody what Slaanesh dislikes about himself and try to hide. Instead of consciously manipulative like Synessa she is actually soft and naive, to the point of moving others to their doom but in an uncosncious level that scape of her own control. Instead of wild and elegantly violent like Dexcessa she is childish and playful, showing a cruelty rooted in innocence instead of malisciousness, stepping into mortals like a kid would mindlessly step into ants. And with the weakness of love, the ultimate form of twisted obsession into other being to the point of dedicating everything in your life to serve and worship that creature, contrary to the virtue of pride wanting others be that utterly obsessed with you instead.

Or maybe they will slap me in the face for even trying to think in such a plot thread, I don't know.

[Golub87]

16 minutes ago, Enoby said:

We've got 329 responses so far, so I think that's a good amount  

I am wondering what people think on this - should we wait until the twins before sending anything off, or should we just send it asap? I ask because the twins may turn things around - but on the other hand we could be waiting a long time and end up missing our 'deadline'

I am of the opinion that it should be sent right away. If we wait, we might as well discard the results and start anew since the situation changed.

[Yoid]

11 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

I am of the opinion that it should be sent right away. If we wait, we might as well discard the results and start anew since the situation changed.

Yeah, is a criticism that is worth sending. Is not so much that we are asking for better points, but asking for better ways of approaching design in the future. Even if Kragnos fix Slaanesh there is worth in making our opinions about this current state of the game reach GW.

[AngryPanda]

4 hours ago, Enoby said:

What do people think of the suspected AoS 3 rules? 

If they 'leak' is correct, we'll be hurt by:

- Losing seeker cavalcade (losing other in book battalions is not as much of an issue)

- No changes to MW shooting but charging people becomes harder 

- Capping -1 to hit (though tbh, it's probably for the best - we also don't ever stack buffs so no loss there from capping +1 to hit too)

- No depraved drove anymore

We'll be helped by:

- As we're generally quite squishy, so charge reactions can help

- We can spend CP quickly on +1 to save, attack twice, and battleshock immunity and regen all of these points back 

- Our blissbarb units will be better relatively 

- Deepstrike often comes from a battalion but ours doesn't

The loss of battalions is bittersweet, but to be brutally honest we didn’t have many good battalions to begin with (Seeker Cavalcade and Supreme Sybarites excluded). Beastmen and Sylvaneth need a complete redo, their books are just a mess. 
 

What I’ve heard from past leaks is that shooting will now require a unit to stay stationary to gain the benefits, otherwise the shooting unit will suffer from some sort of debuff or will be unable to shoot. Like anything that’s a rumor, this needs to be taken with a grain of salt as it’s pretty old. 
 

Overall, I actually think this is going to work out for us in the long term. Most of the other armies in the game seem to be losing a lot more then us, assuming the rumors are true; in theory this buffs HoS as we will be facing against opponents on more equal footing.
 

With the changes to CP, I’m interested to see how the Rod of Misrule will interact within the army. Having the ability to give a +1 save to a unit via Lurid Haze, then cast Mystic Shield (going to be changed to +1 save) is going to make Glutos Lurid Haze lists surprisingly tanky; generating a minimum of 2 cp a turn seems pretty awesome. 

Mentioning Glutos, capping at -1 to hit/wound makes him much more viable as a big platform that moves forward to debuff everything in range, and the Shardspeaker also gets some more viability (assuming they bring down his points). 
 

At this point, I’m just crossing my fingers that we get point reductions/balances that are fair. 
 

32 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I am wondering what people think on this - should we wait until the twins before sending anything off, or should we just send it asap? I ask because the twins may turn things around - but on the other hand we could be waiting a long time and end up missing our 'deadline'

Speaking of which, I think we should send it out beginning of May; no need to wait for the Twins. We already waited for the Lumanith release to drop, and we saw that their release seemed far more balanced. I have little hope that the twin release is going to change the problems that HoS had on release, and sending it out early May would be optimal. 

[Sorrow]

I agree, we should send it out at the very beginning of May.

Anything beyond that is a waste of survey. In truth, I think that whoever wanted to take a survey, probably has already done that. Now, there is good possibility that some people take the survey and simply troll us. I did saw someone write something like that on /tg/, so maybe a few more days and close it.

 

[Jaskier]

Having watched that video, my main takeaway is I won't be able to stack -4 to-hit and -3 to-wound against my Fiends anymore 🥺

In all seriousness, I love everything I'm reading. We need some clarity on certain things, but making the game more tactical (even just the act of scoring changing to be like 40k is a big deal) and trying to give each army a stronger baseline to work with (the new CP system in theory, generic battalions potentially replacing faction battalions, etc) all sound like positive changes overall. 

Side-note, AoS Coach did a Slaanesh video a few days ago, and his guest (who is a playtester) mentioned he can't wait to see how Slaanesh players react to the rules for the Newborn Twins - it sounds like they're going to have some crazy rules! Seeing that size comparison was quite enlightening, they are really darned big after all. 

[Sorrow]

I do not want to get onto the hype train only to be disappointed, but the Twins should be absolute monsters in terms of power.

I mean, they are literally children of Slaanesh walking the Realms, what other Chaos God has accomplished that?

[AngryPanda]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

Having watched that video, my main takeaway is I won't be able to stack -4 to-hit and -3 to-wound against my Fiends anymore 🥺

In all seriousness, I love everything I'm reading. We need some clarity on certain things, but making the game more tactical (even just the act of scoring changing to be like 40k is a big deal) and trying to give each army a stronger baseline to work with (the new CP system in theory, generic battalions potentially replacing faction battalions, etc) all sound like positive changes overall. 

Side-note, AoS Coach did a Slaanesh video a few days ago, and his guest (who is a playtester) mentioned he can't wait to see how Slaanesh players react to the rules for the Newborn Twins - it sounds like they're going to have some crazy rules! Seeing that size comparison was quite enlightening, they are really darned big after all. 

To be honest, I’m perfectly content with Fiends being capped at -1 hit/wound. These two modifiers combined after AoS 3 is released will be the best debuff combo you can achieve; a 6 man unit infiltrating in with Lurid Haze can cause a lot of problems (especially with +1 to their save). Especially considering that the limiting of negative modifiers is going to be consistent across the game, it will make Fiends relatively unique as they’ll be one of the only units to reliability have both -1 modifiers. 
 

I am also liking everything I’ve read so far, I want the game to be more tactical and not be determined by who wins the roll off for turn priority. Everyone’s going to have those games where going first or getting the dreaded double, or even triple, turn can determine the outcome and make an otherwise engaging game into a feel bad one; having a way to limit this and make the game more balanced/rewarding for both players is going to make the game overall more enjoyable and thought provoking. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by AngryPanda

[Jaskier]

Oh don't worry, the -4/-3 was a gimmick anyway  I do agree that Fiends having both -1s natively is a pretty big deal, they're a fairly self-sufficient unit in that sense, especially as they'll pretty much never have to worry about Battleshock. It's also why I'd never bother with units of 3, as getting that -1 to-wound is a bloody big deal. 

[Overread]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

I do not want to get onto the hype train only to be disappointed, but the Twins should be absolute monsters in terms of power.

I mean, they are literally children of Slaanesh walking the Realms, what other Chaos God has accomplished that?

Based on game and lore balance I would imagine that they are close to the power of the gods we have from the Mortal Realms. So the chaos corrupted form of the Lumineth god twins - one for combat one for magic. 

That said hints of the new lore from the upcoming expansion book suggest that they might be more in line with an ancient Slaan in terms of power (remembering that ancient Slaan are about the most powerful creatures save the Chaos Gods and one or two godbeasts). With the bonus that as they are creatures of Chaos they are technically near impossible to kill - kill them and they are reborn within the teeming mass of Chaos that is Slaanesh.

 

Their real strength will be providing a degree of unity to Slaanesh as a force. Hither too Slaanesh has been divided into 3 groups; which war with each other as much as the other races. This held Slaanesh back. A pair of united leaders would at least contain the internal battles and provide a sense of unity. Sure Slaanesh is still chaos, the worshippers will still fight each other; but along smaller lines now not huge divided legions all the time.  

 

They also know where their parent is; they know the weaknesses in the magics and it seems that the forces of Slaanesh are going to come down hard on the realm of Shadow

[LeonBox]

I don't wanna be Mr. Negative Ninny, but I'm actually not all that blown away by the Twins. Not only are they heavily drawing from existing Keeper assets, but they don't look all that different. I know, I know, they're twins. But the main difference between the two seems to be one has a slightly longer staff. 

[Yoid]

34 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I don't wanna be Mr. Negative Ninny, but I'm actually not all that blown away by the Twins. Not only are they heavily drawing from existing Keeper assets, but they don't look all that different. I know, I know, they're twins. But the main difference between the two seems to be one has a slightly longer staff. 

Well, I bet they were design as a single model, then GW cannot decide wich one was the named version and wich the generic version, or wich one to discard, and they simply make two characters.

The main difference for me is the face anyway. Im probably gonna build both like Synessa but one with Dexcessa's face. Not a fan of the whip-rope-whathever, if it dosn't have clear rules, I may just give both the two upper hands of Synessa and the two lower hands of Dexcessa, then both will be using two staffs. Dexcessa's fin make the silhouette  of the model busy and unreadable, and make the shoulders and neck not visible from behind, so im probably gonna give both the wing-like fin. Im happy with them being design this way because then we can customize both as we please, and people are liking one and the other for different reasons.

One thing that I really really like about the model is the upper right hand of Synessa that is hold in a mantra-like gesture.

For some reason people find the KoS inspiration as something wrong, but the current KoS is like a mini-slaanesh design-wise. I really like the twins being basically a GW version of the Exalted Keeper of Secrets. And since the game is moving around god-like models in every army more and more, this will probably open the door for the other three chaos gods to make their own exalted greater daemons/sons in the coming years.

[pnkdth]

5 minutes ago, Yoid said:

For some reason people find the KoS inspiration as something wrong, but the current KoS is like a mini-slaanesh design-wise. I really like the twins being basically a GW version of the Exalted Keeper of Secrets. And since the game is moving around god-like models in every army more and more, this will probably open the door for the other three chaos gods to make their own exalted greater daemons/sons in the coming years.

That's where I'm at as well. It is a more regal version of the keepers, floating above the rest. Their wings/fins/things? gives them even more dark angelic presence wearing them as if a fine robe or dress. I'm cautiously optimistic on additional rules but those in the know seem to be excited. 

[MothmanDraws]

I think the fall back will be useful on alot of slaanesh stuff, Blissbard archers will likely want to be at max range from threats so might be able to keep a little more distance, or stand and shoot for extra few depravity on the chargers before being killed. 

The +1 save on myrmidesh might help them work well as an anvil, 3+ re rolling with possibly negatives from glutos/fiends/shardspeaker and mystic shield, if we see a meta shift to some grindier 2-3 turn combats the tankier painbringers might also help the shardspeaker be close enough to use its abilities. 

As for opponents, the fall back and stand and shoot might not hurt key units we have are so fast anyway its likely not going to be an issue (sigvald should be averaging between 9-12" seekers can run fast enough to just start their charge close). Stand and shoot might actually help us get more depravity spread around if all ranged units start plinking us as we go in. Falling back with keeper or other daemons could be neat as well, if we fall back and they still barely get charge off they are likely in a very spread out spot making locus scary if it triggers. 

While the caps will hurt glutos+fiends builds, what we are attacking into also wont be as crazy buffed up.

 

On the twins and other stuff, I would actually like to see them get a new depravity mechanic, let them spend depravity in smaller chunks to hand out buffs to units around them, with the idea of them channelling the depravity to drive worshipers further, Would be useful for small amounts of depravity here and there, and would make the built in extra points cost on units not feel as bad if you can super charge them. Also works thematically as a twisted version of aether quartz from lumineth.

[Carnith]

I'm really interested in seeing how these rumors bear out for the rest of the game. There are some huge implications if these are all true. 

I want to see what comes of the rumors for generic battalions and if it'll make our archers better or daemonettes better. 

I can't remember where I was reading it (could've been on TGA and I'm just forgetting), but AOS Coach had a playtester on who said he couldn't wait for players reactions to the twins, but I've been told this guy was also someone who said the Slaanesh Tome was very actually good and people just need to play different.

[AronQ_]

Hello friends! Maybe this daemon on birth of Newborn illustration  New Herald models? Kinda look cool, hope so.

Edited April 24, 2021 by AronQ_

[Carnith]

It does make me wonder, why did the protean form of Slaanesh end up making twins? 

In terms of power, if we're moving to generic battalions, my initial idea of a battalion that was the two of them and they get some buffs might not work, unless those types of battalions are relegated to open play and narrative. 

So now I guess I wonder what do they do? Are they keeper power size (so 300-400) or will they be Teclis and Morathi power each since they direct shards of a Chaos god and the closest I think we will get to seeing a chaos god on the table? Or are they together the power of Teclis/Morathi/Nagash? 

 

I can't wait for previews (and I hope they do proper previews). I would hate to find out the night before new zealand preorders when they get spoiled in Italian and we pretty much know what they do minus points.