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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


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10 minutes ago, Latty said:

There's over a hundred things listed as 'sold out' on FW right now, so I'm guessing it's a website issue that they're too lazy to fix.

Maybe it s Forgeworld way of making an april s fool joke 😜

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On 4/1/2021 at 7:38 PM, Apinecone said:

So reading though peoples posts I have liberally borrowed ideas to try and make a lurid haze list to try out, and finally try and charge siggy into some people.  Biggest problems I have with the list is I would have liked another unit of warriors and it is a little magic light -

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
- Host Option: General
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
Lord of Pain (150)
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
- Host Option: General
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (260)
The Masque (130)
- Host Option: General
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (340)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
Seeker Cavalcade (140)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

 
I have also considered esske, so I could finally try and combo her, siggy and the masque but feel like I would need to rework the list a fair bit more to make that work properly.  Maybe going down the supreme symberites road rather than having a seeker cavalcade in every list, but the cavalcade is one of the best things slaanesh has going just now.

From my point of view I get the impression that you're trying to get too much into one list. A big reason for the LoP is making our elite battleline. The other is his CA re-roll ability. With him + the keeper though you will find your command points will dry up quickly. From what I'm seeing your aim is to augment your mortal units into hammers (slickblades and twinsouls) and using Siggie as a double hit though double charge. Given the nature of your faster list you might enjoy a unit of Hellstriders with spears over the Masque. That would still leave you with a relatively solid backbone (twinsouls) and some units to hold the backline + your faster elements also have a battleline unit to frustrate your opponent. They would also benefit from Seeker Cavalcade.

Another way to go with to combine the Masque and LoP into a Bladebringer on seeker chariot (bit more magic and retains speed) which leaves room for another warrior unit. You lose battleline on your twinsouls but on the flip side they can go on the hunt and support the other elements (and they're quite fast).

Not a big fan of Supreme Sybarites, I'd rather pay the points for a guaranteed extra 3 CP. Far too random with 4 heroes.

Hope this helps to narrow it down somewhat, if not, you can always make several lists with a different focus!

Edited by pnkdth
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1 hour ago, pnkdth said:

From my point of view I get the impression that you're trying to get too much into one list. A big reason for the LoP is making our elite battleline. The other is his CA re-roll ability. With him + the keeper though you will find your command points will dry up quickly. From what I'm seeing your aim is to augment your mortal units into hammers (slickblades and twinsouls) and using Siggie as a double hit though double charge. Given the nature of your faster list you might enjoy a unit of Hellstriders with spears over the Masque. That would still leave you with a relatively solid backbone (twinsouls) and some units to hold the backline + your faster elements also have a battleline unit to frustrate your opponent. They would also benefit from Seeker Cavalcade.

Another way to go with to combine the Masque and LoP into a Bladebringer on seeker chariot (bit more magic and retains speed) which leaves room for another warrior unit. You lose battleline on your twinsouls but on the flip side they can go on the hunt and support the other elements (and they're quite fast).

Not a big fan of Supreme Sybarites, I'd rather pay the points for a guaranteed extra 3 CP. Far too random with 4 heroes.

Hope this helps to narrow it down somewhat, if not, you can always make several lists with a different focus!

I likely am trying to fit a little too much into a list at once, but it does also feel like I am trying to play a very fine balancing game with points we have to work with.  I have tried hellstiders a couple of times now, and honestly they end up being the unit I need to sacrifice to take the charges and never really do anything else.  Though I do like your idea of dropping the masque and the LoP for the bladebringer I can get either them on seeker chariot with an extra cp or and endless spell, or just an exalted chariot.

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25 minutes ago, Apinecone said:

I likely am trying to fit a little too much into a list at once, but it does also feel like I am trying to play a very fine balancing game with points we have to work with.  I have tried hellstiders a couple of times now, and honestly they end up being the unit I need to sacrifice to take the charges and never really do anything else.  Though I do like your idea of dropping the masque and the LoP for the bladebringer I can get either them on seeker chariot with an extra cp or and endless spell, or just an exalted chariot.

Hah, yeah, I went from a Godseeker based Seeker Cavalcade to Lurid Haze with an elite mortal presence (led by Syll'esske) to Godseeker list with Noble of Excess base (making use the Scarlet Cavalcades command trait/relic to increase morale for the mortal segment). Quite neat how you can make pretty big changes to the army without making huge changes to your unit selection just by switching your host. Lurid Haze is probably our most competitive choice (redeploy, re-rolling runs, and a stellar CA) but I also want to explore NoE (re-roll wounds on the charge) with Godseekers +1 to charge since if I can get that to work that's going to increase their output significantly.

Let's see how long it takes before I start going, "hmmm, maybe a Pretenders list would be more my thing..." The ever slippery slope of theorycrafting and list-building. :D

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So I think I'm closer to my final tournament list:

2000 points, Scarlet Cavalcade

Keeper of Secrets - Embodiment of Speed, Helm of the Last Rider, Paths of the Dark Prince

Contorted Epitome - Enrapturing circlet, born of damnation

11x Blissbarb Archers

5x Scourgestriders

5x Scourgestriders

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

Seeker Cavalcade

Mesmerizing Mirror

How does this look? I'm a little concerned about the survivability of the KoS as my bravery lynchpin, but having them sticking close to the slickblades lets me get good use out of the double attack CA.

 

Edited by CeleFAZE
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On 4/1/2021 at 6:38 PM, Apinecone said:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
- Host Option: General
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
Lord of Pain (150)
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
- Host Option: General
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (260)
The Masque (130)
- Host Option: General
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (340)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
Seeker Cavalcade (140)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

I do like the list and think it could perform well, but I think you may be a little hero heavy. I'd recommend swapping the LoP for 5× chaos warriors (so still on 3BL) and use the saved 60 points to turn the KoS into Glutos. This is only if you aren't super bothered about artifacts. 

You could instead dump the extra cp to upgrade the KoS into Glutos, which would lose you the rod, but if you wanted it back you could swap out the masque for a viceleader (give her the healing spell).

The reason I like Glutos so much is that he can't be sniped very easily (unlike a keeper), can't be summoned, protects the front of the army, and very importantly has a few none-CP ways to prevent battleshock. He's not necessary, but in slower lists like this not built for a super aggressive playstyle, I think it's best to drag things out for this list and summon the Keeper in later. 

 

10 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

So I think I'm closer to my final tournament list:

2000 points, Scarlet Cavalcade

Keeper of Secrets - Embodiment of Speed, Helm of the Last Rider, Paths of the Dark Prince

Contorted Epitome - Enrapturing circlet, born of damnation

11x Blissbarb Archers

5x Scourgestriders

5x Scourgestriders

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

Seeker Cavalcade

Mesmerizing Mirror

How does this look? I'm a little concerned about the survivability of the KoS as my bravery lynchpin, but having them sticking close to the slickblades lets me get good use out of the double attack CA.

 

I like the look of it :) Though do you think it might be worth having the greater daemon healing spell on your keeper? Just in case it outruns the epitome. 

Do you have a particular idea of a gameplan for this army generally? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sorrow said:

@CeleFAZE

Personally, I would drop the Blissbarb Seekers and rather look into direction of more Slickblade Seekers or Blissbarb Archers.

 

Yeah, I think Slickblades are usually better than blissbarbs. It's not that blissbarbs are bad, but rather I think their purpose is to harass and deal a little bit of damage here and there for depravity, which is all well and good but with how pricey things are it's hard to justify bringing in depravity generators over actual threat. 

By the way, how are we feeling for this poll? We may still need more time, but I was thinking we need a link to a polling site with an option to add notes to answers, so that we get a raw number and some comments to help show a general consensus. Mostly this is about communicating clearly to GW so I think we need to think about everything we're going to say. 

On one hand, from my own experience and from others' tournament experience, we're not weak. We're not in the Beasts of Chaos or Sylvaneth rutt and it's quite frustrating to see some people (not on this forum) to brush aside all wins as 'dumb luck' and all loses as definitive proof we suck. It would be inaccurate to portray the idea that we're super weak and need massive buffs, and the notion would likely be ignored. On the other hand, we do need some reductions on particular units, it's just which ones there's some disagreement with. 

I think we can all agree on Slaangors needing help, but then there's a bit on contention on Painbringers (though most in favour of a reduction), and much more contention on Twinsouls, Glutos (I don't think he needs to come down, but some think he sucks), the KoS, Sigvald, blissbarbs on foot, and likely more. 

I think we need to be clear on our message; we don't want a uniform points drop across the board. While many units may need a drop, some need it more than others - if we did a big 20% cut, Glutos would be OP  320 and Slaangors would still be bad at 110. As such, how specific should the poll be? Should it just be one basic question "Do you believe the points, generally, in the 2021 Hedonites of Slaanesh book are: 1) too high 2) too low 3) generally correct"? While that's simple it'll probably miss the nuance even with comments; for example, of two people just believe Painbringers and Slaangors are overcosted, one may vote "generally correct" because that's what they think, and the other may vote "too high" because they want to see change. 

On the other hand, too specific and no one will answer the questions. If we ask for opinions for every point in the book, we'll get far fewer answers. If we just ask about the "problem" units, then the question becomes "what are the problem units?"

Thoughts? 

@Sorrow

@AngryPanda

I know you two have shown a lot of interest in the poll specifically :) (there are many others too but many people with letters as their profile pics so their names are harder to remember - sorry :P )

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Had another tournament earlier today, this time going 2-1. List I took was;

Lurid Haze Invaders
Keeper of Secrets - 340 - Invaders General, Sinistrous Hand, Oil of Exultation, Progeny of Damnation - 340
Sigvald - 260
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - General, Feverish Anticipation, Rod of Misrule - 230
11 Blissbarb Archers - 160
11 Blissbarb Archers - 160
5 Chaos Warriors - 90
5 Slickblade Seekers - 200
5 Slickblade Seekers - 200
5 Slickblade Seekers - 200
Seeker Cavalcade - 140
1980/2000

First game was against Lumineth with Teclis and Eltharion on Scorched Earth. He took first turn but didn't do too much other than cast some very annoying spells. I was ahead on victory points for most of the game but he rolled better to burn objectives, and I made an error with choosing to attack the archers over the pikes with Sigvald and his fighting first double pile-in (from the Keeper) which led to me not winning that flank as early as I needed to. The battlefield looked pretty grim for me at the end - I basically got tabled and even lost most of my summoned stuff - but it was a darn near tie on victory points. 

Game two was against Skaven with 80 Stormvermin (!) and 2 Verminlords with a few other odds and ends, mission was Places of Arcane Power. My goal was just to snipe one of his Verminlords immediately with Sigvald, but my mates' save rolling was just out of this world good (passing 4 out of 7 6+ saves!) which eventually led to the two killing each other thanks to Death Frenzy on the next turn. I took first turn just to cap the objectives and try to snipe his heroes, but my tactic flopped when my Slickblades failed to wipe a Clanrat screen that promptly stopped my second Slickblade unit from attacking his Screaming Bell. From there, a single block of 40 Stormvermin with both forms of Death Frenzy wiped out pretty much my entire army, but crucially I prevented him from scoring any points thanks to playing conservative with my Karkadrak and Keeper (getting very lucky with the latters' save rolls, and summoning a second one to kill the second Verminlord.) 

Game three was against Coalesced Seraphon with Kroak and a Dread Saurian on Better Part of Valour. Unfortunately, the mission really decided this game before any dice were rolled - his only Battleline units were two units of 10 Skinks and 10 Saurus Knights. I out-dropped him so I took first turn and just rushed everything forward purely with the intent to kill his Battleline and thus prevent him from scoring any points. It ended up with only half of his Saurus Knight unit left alive and they couldn't get onto an objective turn one (hard to explain why but it was series of very unfortunate events) meaning the max points he could score was 4. I won the following turn roll and thus won the game by burning my three objectives for 6 points, though at that point the turn roll wouldn't have mattered as I had his army penned into his side of the board. In the end, I actually wiped out most of his army (we kept playing just to see how kill points would shake out) though I lost most of mine in turn. 

So overall thoughts are that Slickblades really are amazing, doing the heavy lifting all day, though that 5+ save just makes them fold to pretty much anything. The ambushing Sigvald and Keeper combo only really worked its charm in the first match against Lumineth, but it was also the match where Sigvald did the least. It's a scary little combo in conjunction with the 26" alpha strike potential from the Slickblades (with a Karkadrak trying to keep within 12" for Inspiring Presence) but I do feel like the list was missing out big time on some real staying power and magic defence, and as nasty as the Sigvald/Keeper duo is (fighting first on the charge, twice) I'm just not quite sure it was worth taking that over Glutos and something else instead. The question then is what to ambush, and honestly that probably ends up just being my Battleline units or, if I roll high enough, perhaps Glutos and his escort of 6 Fiends? Hard to say. 

The thing about being nearly/completely tabled in each game (even with summoning) but scratching out big wins on the mission (or a very narrow loss) is that it pretty much proves exactly my theory about Slaanesh - they are fantastic at winning games if you know what you are doing, but can crumble very quickly - and my list - it's extra fragile even in Lurid Haze (though part of that was some at times poor positioning and decision making on my part.) I think tacking Glutos and Geminids onto the list will really help offset the durability problem, and probably not at the cost of too much damage output - my Keeper didn't get to use her command ability too much, as usually I preferred using the CP for +1 save or Inspiring Presence, or she wasn't in a good spot to use it on something that could take a return blow before fighting again. I'm trying to wrangle 15 Slickblades in the battalion with Glutos and 6 Fiends with two weak heroes, or trading 5 Slickblades to upgrade the heroes so that they can actually do stuff other than just sit there and give me CP (Rod of Misrule) or DP (Fane) each turn. Shooting will be the armies' bane as usual, but what's new? 

Forgot to add, I feel like having some kind of ranged presence is nigh mandatory for Slaanesh, even if just to farm early DP. I find that you really want to be sitting around 12 come turn three, and Blissbarbs - overpriced as they are - are hands down the best way to do that. 3x5 Chaos Warriors isn't terrible, but it just doesn't do much for you really. Finding the points to fit at least one unit of Blissbarbs in just seems like a no brainer, but I'll experiment with Glutos and Geminids with more aggressive deployment to see if I can get enough that way early on. The Chaos Lord on Karkadrak did a whole load of nothing, and I genuinely wonder if he's actually worth running - even getting to a 2+ with the Lurid Haze command ability, all three of my opponents minced him when they wanted to. Again, poor positioning on my part, but today was a very bad showing for him. I'll give him another go though for my next list, as I know I didn't really set him up to succeed. 

Edited by Jaskier
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On 4/2/2021 at 10:50 PM, pnkdth said:

Hah, yeah, I went from a Godseeker based Seeker Cavalcade to Lurid Haze with an elite mortal presence (led by Syll'esske) to Godseeker list with Noble of Excess base (making use the Scarlet Cavalcades command trait/relic to increase morale for the mortal segment). Quite neat how you can make pretty big changes to the army without making huge changes to your unit selection just by switching your host. Lurid Haze is probably our most competitive choice (redeploy, re-rolling runs, and a stellar CA) but I also want to explore NoE (re-roll wounds on the charge) with Godseekers +1 to charge since if I can get that to work that's going to increase their output significantly.

Let's see how long it takes before I start going, "hmmm, maybe a Pretenders list would be more my thing..." The ever slippery slope of theorycrafting and list-building. :D

Yes it is both the upside and the downside of the lack of focus in the hedonite sub factions, it is very easy to find yourself skipping between the,.

7 hours ago, Enoby said:

I do like the list and think it could perform well, but I think you may be a little hero heavy. I'd recommend swapping the LoP for 5× chaos warriors (so still on 3BL) and use the saved 60 points to turn the KoS into Glutos. This is only if you aren't super bothered about artifacts. 

You could instead dump the extra cp to upgrade the KoS into Glutos, which would lose you the rod, but if you wanted it back you could swap out the masque for a viceleader (give her the healing spell).

The reason I like Glutos so much is that he can't be sniped very easily (unlike a keeper), can't be summoned, protects the front of the army, and very importantly has a few none-CP ways to prevent battleshock. He's not necessary, but in slower lists like this not built for a super aggressive playstyle, I think it's best to drag things out for this list and summon the Keeper in later.

This might come down to how I play but based on my current experience I really don't like summoning in a keeper.  It also removes one of the reasons to go lurid haze with siggy, as without the keeper there is no longer the threat and opportunity (even if you don't want to do it that often) of a turn 1 double activation siggy.  However I do like glutos, but I feel like if I am taking him I would want to remove sigvald and move back to godseekers or maybe swap to the faultless blades.  Not had a chance for another game yet but I have changed my list idea to this -

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
- Host Option: General
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (260)
Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (250)
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
- Lore of Slaanesh: Born of Damnation

Battleline
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Units
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (340)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)

Battalions
Seeker Cavalcade (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120


If I was to bring back in glutos and likely swap back to godseekers though faultless blades could work too I would move to something like this -

Spoiler

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (340)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Command Trait: Speed-chaser
- Artefact: Cameo of the Dark Prince
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
Glutos Orscollion, Lord of Gluttony (400)
- Lore of Pain and Pleasure: Dark Delusions

Battleline
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
11 x Blissbarb Archers (160)

Units
10 x Symbaresh Twinsouls (340)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)

Battalions
Seeker Cavalcade (140)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

There is a bit of play there, I could swap the twinsouls out for 6 fiends or turn the archers back into warriors and get an endless spell into the list.  Not had much time to think about this list though.

@Jaskier Thanks for the write ups they have been very interesting to read.

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So I finally had a chance to get some games in before another lockdown was called over here. Managed to get in 2 games with 2 different lists:

First list was:

lurid haze

Sigvald

Keeper (hand, slothful stupor, general, feverish anticipation, oil of exultation)

shardspeaker (rod of misrule)

syll'eskke (hysterical frenzy)

2x30 daemonettes

1x11 blissbarbs

supreme sybarites

mesmerizing mirror

My opponent ended up bringing sons of behemat in a stomper tribe. My daemonettes where reduced to rock fodder for the first two turns. The shardspeaker did wonders however by punishing my opponents aggressive gargant rushing and enabling the blissbarbs and syll'eskke to shred a unit early on (the new locus helped lock part of the unit out of the fight which helped). Between subvert and slothful stupor i managed to keep my opponent from using command abilities for most of the game but if I'm being honest between failing my 2+ to throw the oil into the fane and some really underwhelming combat the keeper didn't do much else besides die to the warstomper. Sigvald did a decent job at grinding down gargant units and taking hits but his damage output is way too swingy for his points. I got the mirror off on the second turn on his warstomper but got no wounds off on it and he just moved it away after the priority roll. Sylleskke ended up as the surprise mvp as I unintentionally ended up getting her reroll 1s rule to work most turns between the blissbarbs and the keeper and later 30 daemonettes summoned on turn 3. Speaking of which the summoned 30 daemonettes pulled out a close win for me by swamping his last gargant unit, stabbing two of them to death and triggering their icon in battleshock.

 

Second list was:

Godseeker host

Keeper (hand, general, speed chaser, cameo of the dark prince, paths of the dark prince)

exalted bladebringer (enrapturing circlet, hysterical frenzy)

exalted bladebringer (progeny of damnation)

2x11 blissbarbs

2x5 hellstriders with scourges

2x5 slickblades

seeker cavalcade

My opponent was lumineth running some of the new units. He didn't bring teclis so I gave my opponent first turn not realizing what some of the new stuff did and ended up with 30 ethereal wardens on one of the centre objectives immediately. I'll summarize that side of the table by saying I sacrificed a bladebringer, hellstrider unit and slickblade unit to keep them there. He also got aggressive using dawnriders and windchargers to take the other mid table objective. Using seeker cavalcade to get around lightning reflexes helped and I slaughtered the dawnriders and kept locking down and chipping at the wardens. My other hellstrider unit managed to chip away at a 10 man unit of wardens coming up to save the dawnriders and the windchargers got shredded by my blissbarbs. I also managed to kill half of a 30 block of sentinels with my keeper using paths and throwing the cameo into the fane to fly over some terrain they where hiding behind on the first turn (once again the keeper disappoints) Between Lyrior and a calligrave on the terrain piece he never ran out of command points. He aggressively placed his shrine as close to the edge of his territory he could so that he could keep the calligrave (his general) within 12" of the 30 wardens for spamming reroll 1 commands. two cathallars backed up by 5 bladelords kept battleshocks at bay but also was a 2 for 1 deal for depravity for my blissbarbs. Lyrior, the bladelords and a very effective magic phase slaughtered my keeper but my second bladebringer wrecked lyrior the following turn and my surviving slickblade and hellstriders rolled around to clearing the remaining sentinels on his back objective.  after losing everything i threw at the 30 warden block  I resorted to summoning daemonettes and throwing one of my blissbarb units at them to keep them back. The game ended with the wardens and a windmage (which i haven't mentioned before now because all it managed to do was cast the teleport spell once) )being the only units he had left while I had a unit of hellstriders, slickblades, blissbarbs and bladebringer left. The game definitely would have been different if I hadn't taken paths of the dark prince on my keeper and crippled the sentinels early on. Long story short I pulled a decisive win from being put on the backfoot early by abusing seeker cavalcade to pick apart his weaker flank and throw a bladebringer into his support heroes.

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5 hours ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, I think Slickblades are usually better than blissbarbs. It's not that blissbarbs are bad, but rather I think their purpose is to harass and deal a little bit of damage here and there for depravity, which is all well and good but with how pricey things are it's hard to justify bringing in depravity generators over actual threat. 

By the way, how are we feeling for this poll? We may still need more time, but I was thinking we need a link to a polling site with an option to add notes to answers, so that we get a raw number and some comments to help show a general consensus. Mostly this is about communicating clearly to GW so I think we need to think about everything we're going to say. 

On one hand, from my own experience and from others' tournament experience, we're not weak. We're not in the Beasts of Chaos or Sylvaneth rutt and it's quite frustrating to see some people (not on this forum) to brush aside all wins as 'dumb luck' and all loses as definitive proof we suck. It would be inaccurate to portray the idea that we're super weak and need massive buffs, and the notion would likely be ignored. On the other hand, we do need some reductions on particular units, it's just which ones there's some disagreement with. 

I think we can all agree on Slaangors needing help, but then there's a bit on contention on Painbringers (though most in favour of a reduction), and much more contention on Twinsouls, Glutos (I don't think he needs to come down, but some think he sucks), the KoS, Sigvald, blissbarbs on foot, and likely more. 

I think we need to be clear on our message; we don't want a uniform points drop across the board. While many units may need a drop, some need it more than others - if we did a big 20% cut, Glutos would be OP  320 and Slaangors would still be bad at 110. As such, how specific should the poll be? Should it just be one basic question "Do you believe the points, generally, in the 2021 Hedonites of Slaanesh book are: 1) too high 2) too low 3) generally correct"? While that's simple it'll probably miss the nuance even with comments; for example, of two people just believe Painbringers and Slaangors are overcosted, one may vote "generally correct" because that's what they think, and the other may vote "too high" because they want to see change. 

On the other hand, too specific and no one will answer the questions. If we ask for opinions for every point in the book, we'll get far fewer answers. If we just ask about the "problem" units, then the question becomes "what are the problem units?"

Thoughts? 

@Sorrow

@AngryPanda

I know you two have shown a lot of interest in the poll specifically :) (there are many others too but many people with letters as their profile pics so their names are harder to remember - sorry :P )

Personally, I think we should still have the poll. I’m seeing people have success with Slaanesh, particularly using our new calvary. In fact,  most of the winning armies I’ve read about or witnessed are building their lists around Slickblades, which speaks to how effective they are. Occasionally you’ll see a unit or two of Blissbarbs thrown into the mix, but the majority of succeeding armies usually center around taking a multitude of 5 man squads of Slickblades in Godseekers or Luird Haze. 
 

On the contrary, it’s rare to see an army take any of the foot-slogging mortals. Sigvald and Glutos are exceptions, as they’re decently priced for what they do, and it seems people have found some general success with them on the table. However, I’ve yet to see someone bring a group of Painbringers and say that they preformed positively, or for someone to say that their Shardspeaker was a wise return on investment. Twinsouls have had mixed results, some people swear by them while others feel they need a point adjustment. Lords of pain suffer from the weakness that they’re only able to buff mortals, and being that the prime candidate for said buffs are the above mentioned Painbringers and Twinsouls, they’re also a controversial pick as they lack a role in most armies. Blissbarbs are strange in that they have some utility; they don’t do much damage and are very easy to kill, but they generate depravity somewhat consistently if they are not dealt with. 
 

And everyone knows how bad fiendbloods are. 
 

Overall, it’s poor army and book design if the majority of players are flocking to a single unit or two to build lists around, while the other options are ignored. It’s the ripple effect caused by imbalance within the battletome; people are going to naturally gravitate towards bringing units they feel will make a healthy return in investment and keep away from units that are overpriced or badly written. 

From what I’ve read, experienced, and seen, I think we should have a poll that asks GW to have painbringers brought down in points, for Fiendbloods to be reworked via their warscroll, and to have the other mortal units (besides slickblades and our named characters) re-examined for point costs. Shardspeakers could come down by a decent amount, and Lords of Pain will probably be a lot more reasonable at 120 pts. 

 

Edited by AngryPanda
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5 hours ago, Enoby said:

If we just ask about the "problem" units, then the question becomes "what are the problem units?"

I think if we do any blanket point drops we'll be too strong (like you said). To be fair on the coming points, I haven't used the daemon half of the army much, so my knowledge on what's needed there is, shall we say, lacking. But here are my "problem units" worth including in the poll.

Painbringers, blissbarb archers, twin souls, slaangors (although they need a rule clarification/re-wright more), lord of pain, and sharspeaker.

The maybe could do with a change list is ... well most of the lesser daemon heroes. I've never heard of anyone taking a herald on foot. Actually haven't even heard of anyone summoning one. It's a shame because their rules are pretty good. It's just hard to find 130pts spare. Not sure if they actually need it, but perhaps someone else has some ideas on them and others.

Regardless, happy Easter everyone!

(or non denominational weekend! whichever takes your fancy)

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1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

Personally, I think we should still have the poll. I’m seeing people have success with Slaanesh, particularly using our new calvary. In fact,  most of the winning armies I’ve read about or witnessed are building their lists around Slickblades, which speaks to how effective they are. Occasionally you’ll see a unit or two of Blissbarbs thrown into the mix, but the majority of succeeding armies usually center around taking a multitude of 5 man squads of Slickblades in Godseekers or Luird Haze. 
 

On the contrary, it’s rare to see an army take any of the foot-slogging mortals. Sigvald and Glutos are exceptions, as they’re decently priced for what they do, and it seems people have found some general success with them on the table. However, I’ve yet to see someone bring a group of Painbringers and say that they preformed positively, or for someone to say that their Shardspeaker was a wise return on investment. Twinsouls have had mixed results, some people swear by them while others feel they need a point adjustment. Lords of pain suffer from the weakness that they’re only able to buff mortals, and being that the prime candidate for said buffs are the above mentioned Painbringers and Twinsouls, they’re also a controversial pick as they lack a role in most armies. Blissbarbs are strange in that they have some utility; they don’t do much damage and are very easy to kill, but they generate depravity somewhat consistently if they are not dealt with. 
 

And everyone knows how bad fiendbloods are. 
 

Overall, it’s poor army and book design if the majority of players are flocking to a single unit or two to build lists around, while the other options are ignored. It’s the ripple effect caused by imbalance within the battletome; people are going to naturally gravitate towards bringing units they feel will make a healthy return in investment and keep away from units that are overpriced or badly written. 

From what I’ve read, experienced, and seen, I think we should have a poll that asks GW to have painbringers brought down in points, for Fiendbloods to be reworked via their warscroll, and to have the other mortal units (besides slickblades and our named characters) re-examined for point costs. Shardspeakers could come down by a decent amount, and Lords of Pain will probably be a lot more reasonable at 120 pts. 

 

Yeah I definitely agree the poll should go ahead - I think it's important for the game as a whole to look at how much impact we can have as a community. 

1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

Overall, it’s poor army and book design if the majority of players are flocking to a single unit or two to build lists around, while the other options are ignored. It’s the ripple effect caused by imbalance within the battletome; people are going to naturally gravitate towards bringing units they feel will make a healthy return in investment and keep away from units that are overpriced or badly written. 

I agree that the points have made some units unfavourable and thus not used (e.g. painbringers), but at least it's mostly the points rather than one unit being used because it combos the best. At least this is an easy fix - I'd be much happier to take a LoP for 120pts.

So, how are these for some questions:

1) Generally, how do you feel about the points cost in the Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome 2021?

A) A significant number of units are overcosted

B) Most units are correctly pointed

C) A significant number of units are undercosted 

D) I don't have a strong opinion either way

2*) Do you feel "X unit" is correctly pointed?

A) Yes I feel they are correctly pointed

B) No I think they are too highly costed 

C) No I think they are too cheaply costed 

D) I don't have a strong opinion either way

3) Have the points cost impacted your choice to play Hedonites of Slaanesh 

A) No, I play them regardless

B) Yes, I chose to play them because of their points cost

C) Yes, I chose not to play them because of their points cost but would have played otherwise

D) No, I do not play them regardless of points cost

E) No, something else stops me from playing Hedonites of Slaanesh but I would play with that fixed

F) I have no strong opinion

4) How do you feel about the rules of the book regardless of the points cost

A) I strongly like the rules

B) I like the rules

C) I have no opinion either way

D) I dislike the rules

E) I strongly dislike the rules

5) Would you like to see a Warscroll rewrite for the Slaangors, or do you believe a points cost would suffice

A) I would like to see a warscroll rewrite

B) I think posts changes would suffice

C) I think the warscroll and points for the Slaangor are good

D) I have no strong opinion

---

The question is then what units we should include; I think the easiest way would probably be just to include all of the new mortal models. It's not that all daemons are perfect, but rather people seem to have more issue with the mortals. 

* this question would be repeated for the 10 mortal warscrolls

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3 hours ago, Enoby said:

I agree that the points have made some units unfavourable and thus not used (e.g. painbringers), but at least it's mostly the points rather than one unit being used because it combos the best. At least this is an easy fix - I'd be much happier to take a LoP for 120pts.

I agree, and echoing what’s been said I also feel a point reduction to Glutos would be sort of overkill; he’s a good unit that can fit within certain lists but not others. If slickblades were too receive point adjustments, I can see them going down 10-20 points at most, but otherwise I’m pretty content with what they bring to the table.

It’s the majority of on-foot mortal units need to be re-examined, and beginning with them is a good place to start; thankfully it’s not an issue with their warscrolls but rather their points. 

 

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

The question is then what units we should include; I think the easiest way would probably be just to include all of the new mortal models. It's not that all daemons are perfect, but rather people seem to have more issue with the mortals. 

I can take a look at the questions soon tonight to see how I can add or try to give deeper analysis; from what I’ve read I like what’s being asked so far. It will be hard to analyze all the Daemon and mortals at once, and as mentioned it would probably be best to start with a reexamination of the mortal point costs.
 

The biggest benefit that Daemons have over mortals is that even though some may be overpriced (herald on foot), you can instead summon, effectively earning free units without having to deal with the crazy point costs; for list building you can focus on the mortal units which are unable to be summoned and then use the DP to bring in Daemons that are tailored towards what you’re fighting or the scenario. I would never spend 150 pts for a Infernal Entrapturess, but I’d gladly spend only 7 DP to summon one against a caster-heavy list. 

Edited by AngryPanda
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2 hours ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

So I know Lurid Haze is amazing, but has anyone noticed that a Faultless Blades Pretenders Host using a Seeker Cavalcade can pile in 9”? It gives you an extra 3” on top of the bonus 3” from the Cavalcade. 

It only extends pile in move, not the range from which you can pile in, unlike Cavalcade (which is a massive difference). It's not terrible but not great either and doesn't combo well with Cavalcade.

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23 hours ago, Enoby said:

 

On 4/3/2021 at 2:59 PM, CeleFAZE said:

So I think I'm closer to my final tournament list:

2000 points, Scarlet Cavalcade

Keeper of Secrets - Embodiment of Speed, Helm of the Last Rider, Paths of the Dark Prince

Contorted Epitome - Enrapturing circlet, born of damnation

11x Blissbarb Archers

5x Scourgestriders

5x Scourgestriders

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Slickblade Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

5x Blissbarb Seekers

Seeker Cavalcade

Mesmerizing Mirror

How does this look? I'm a little concerned about the survivability of the KoS as my bravery lynchpin, but having them sticking close to the slickblades lets me get good use out of the double attack CA.

 

I like the look of it :) Though do you think it might be worth having the greater daemon healing spell on your keeper? Just in case it outruns the epitome. 

Do you have a particular idea of a gameplan for this army generally? 

My thoughts were to have the striders and slickblades form something of a murderball with the keeper, rushing up to dismantle a vulnerable flank, while the blissbarb seekers work to eliminate problem heroes to kick the support out from under my opponent. With their movement and the ability to run and shoot, I think it's actually better to focus-fire with a couple units to go for fully eliminating a prime target when possible, (on average against a hero with look-out-sir we're getting around 2 mortals and 3 -1 rend wounds from 2 units, that only goes up with acquiescence) and only throwing out a spread of shots for depravity when there isn't a strategically juicy hero, easily bracketed monster or small unit in range. The blissbarb archers are there solely for early depravity generation and to maybe sit on an objective and provide fire support for summoned daemonette blobs. If there's a situation where I'm facing an obvious centerpiece threat like Teclis, Archaon, or Nagash I'd probably try to rush for doing as much damage to it on turn 1 between the archers and the ranged seekers as possible, or more likely in the case of Archaon trying to eliminate his support pieces before they get the chance to buff him.

I'm of two minds with the KoS healing spell. On the one hand, all my heroes are daemons, so the inherent limitation doesn't affect it much, but on the other hand flight on a keeper is a really hard thing to pass up, and I already have the hand for some amount of innate healing. I want it in the thick of things to provide morale support to my slickblades (and blissbarb seekers where possible), but a canny opponent with certain options (like LRL) can block me from doing so on foot with the right units.

I like to make room for the mirror in most lists where I can viably summon it, as it can really be an excellently disruptive piece that forces a choice of two bad outcomes on my opponent: move where I want you to, or take mortals and feed me depravity. Its ability to damage heroes is just a bonus, as I've never had much luck with that aspect of it, but with the new depravity rules it doesn't really need it to do work.

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In addition what's been said about our mortal footsloggers I'd like to see Fiends drop in points as well. They're competing with our arguably best unit (with seeker cavalcades) and while they do add utility and their own special rules so do the Slickblades. I'd like to see them go down to 160 (-20) and have daemonettes drop down to 100 (-10).

At this point most players are arriving at the same conclusion. The book is not bad it has just over-costed units. Being able to toy around with more of the battalions and points not running away with basic units such as blissbarbs would go a long way in levelling up this army by making a wider set of builds viable.

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@CeleFAZE sounds pretty similar to the Lurid Haze list I'm thinking about running:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Lurid Haze Invaders Host (Host of Chaos)

Leaders
Sigvald, Prince of Slaanesh (260)
- Host Option: General
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (230)
- General
- Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
- Artefact: The Rod of Misrule
- Host Option: General
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (150)
- Artefact: Oil of Exultation
- Host Option: General

Battleline
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
5 x Hellstriders with Claw-spears (140)
5 x Hellstriders with Claw-spears (140)

Units
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Slickblade Seekers (200)
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (180)
5 x Blissbarb Seekers (180)

Battalions
Seeker Cavalcade (140)

The exalted seekers just provide so much wound density, and chaos warriors are just really efficient backfield battleline.  The combo with Sigvald in Lurid Haze is obvious, and I like the Enrapturess for some backfield shooting/depravity generation.  The Lord on Kark is a bit of a left-field choice, but even without Euphoric Killers he's still an excellent fighty character that can run with one of the unit of Slickblades to give them a bit more oomph.  And with the Lurid Haze command trait, he can get up to a 2+ save!

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2 minutes ago, Drazhoath said:

Sry for asking but I dont understand the advantage of the Seeker Calvacade🤔

I mean, for charges I must reach the target unit in  1/2 inch.

They're eligible to fight within 6", meaning they don't have to charge if they end their movement within 6", and can't be selected as a target until you pile in with them.

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