AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[umpac]

20 hours ago, umpac said:

From those "theories" the Kangaroos are god awful for 150 though, significantly worse shooting than Bliss seekers. Ballista seemed very lacklustre as well. 

So I just saw the warscrolls of the new Roos and turns out they're kind of nuts. 3" range in combat with potentially 2A 3+ 3+ -2 (!) 1 which can be combined with pile in shenanigans (sharks, the new wind god thingy) and mobility that makes Slaanesh look like Gotrek. 2 Wounds at 5+ though so half the toughness of Blissbarbs, 

 

4 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Seems to be a hell of a lot of fuss over the LRL release. Has anyone had a chance to look over the rumours, and if so, how's their costing looking compared to ours?

They were already good, this certainly makes them better. Hard to say by how much but some of their new stuff is good. At worst they dont use the new units but Teclis now has a heal and a teleport and their non-Teclis casters got a lot better (Contemplation, faction terrain).

[Feii]

28 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

@Feii

It is childish because you're denigrating the rules designers without knowing the background of how and why the book was designed the way it is, especially when the original point you made was, at best, inaccurate. As you point out, the key reason you see more warscroll updates for Daughters of Khaine is because their battletome is from 2018, whereas ours is from 2019. Our book came out after AoS 2.0, theirs didn't, and the rules for both reflected that. Our warscrolls are already modern, theirs needed to be modernised. That's not indicative of laziness, or inept rules designers. That's the rules designers updating one faction to bring them in line with others. Ours was already at that point, hence the fewer updates, and consider this; our book was likely slated to come out in 2020 before COVID hit. The lack of changes really shouldn't be a surprise; most of the changes come from points, Euphoric Killers, our summoning mechanic and the Locus. 

I don't agree with them removing Euphoric Killers from non-Hedonites. You'll get no argument from me there. It's obviously to encourage more Hedonites in the army, or at least give Slaves/Beasts a different role to just killing stuff - they're still great for giving us tough or cheap bodies. 

On a fundamental level, our new summoning mechanic is better for the game than our old one. The old one, while stronger in most cases, was also lazier because it completely killed any incentive to run anything but big stompy heroes and minimum battleline. Our new summoning mechanic actually rewards taking everything or at least diversifying our lists; you can still min-max it, but you're no longer punished for running Fiends and so on. Now you will really start to see lists that make use of our various non-hero elites, and invest more into taking things other than Keepers. That's not lazy or bad rules design to me. That's an improvement from a rules design perspective. 

Then we get to our Locus. This is a rule that everyone hated. I've played a tonne of games with Slaanesh and never once played against someone who didn't hate that rule. There was counterplay of course, but even the people who could get around it still didn't like facing it, and plenty of Slaanesh players - myself included - didn't like how cheap it felt to not be punished for poor positioning thanks to a silly defensive net. Like our summoning mechanic, the old version is also stronger in most cases, but it was a special rule that was near universally panned. By comparison, the new Locus has some really strong applications for locking units in place, which good positioning can really make the most out of - whether to grab objectives or just to survive - and crucially, it doesn't leave the opponent feeling helpless while a big scary monster/unit fights twice and takes their models off the board before they get a chance to strike. Again, from a design perspective, I think it's an improvement - it's certainly more tactically rewarding, if quite a bit more limited in its uses. 

As both a DoK and Slaanesh player, the point about how 'interesting' the warscrolls for Melusai are doesn't track that much with me, personally. The Blood Sisters' mortal wound rule is a cooler, more unique way of dealing mortal wounds as compared to Slickblades, but it's still just another rule that does mortal wounds. Ditto Blood Stalkers, who have less flavour to them than Blissbarb Seekers, who get to run and shoot by default. I feel that the Slickblades' speed is represented at least nominally with their re-roll charges, something that Hellstriders don't have. I also don't mind regular Seekers being the fastest of the mounted units; they're daemonic riders and more lightly armoured/armed than the others. As for your comment on Myrmidesh and Twinsouls, remember that you're comparing them to Stormcast. The basic Stormcast is a superhuman warrior clad with the finest armour and weapons. The basic Stormcast isn't comparable to a basic human like a Marauder or Freeguild Guard, they are comparable more to the elites of other armies, like Chaos Warriors, Chosen and so on. Both Myrmidesh and Twinsouls are better than Chaos Warriors, and better or comparable to Sequitors. Why is that a bad thing exactly? Remember, these units - based on warscrolls alone - are quite a bit more powerful than something like a Liberator or Chaos Warrior, they just pay too much for those abilities. 

And that's where the disconnect comes in. Points. Let's preface this; your original post, the reason I commented, used Lumineth as a point of comparison to say how our warscrolls are dull, and that is thus indicative of lazy or inept rules designers, that Glutos is the only interesting one we have. I strongly disagree, even if we just keep it to the new mortals. Twinsouls have an alternating 'personality' bonus, boosting either their damage or durability, and force you to plan around when you want those buffs active. That's more interesting to me than just "here's this buff, use it" because it presents a tactical choice for the user. The Shardspeaker is a fragile wizard that wants to get close to make full use of their powerful offensive buff and debuff; both those abilities are amazing, but they are also dangerous to get full use out of. That's more interesting to me than just "pick a unit, that unit gets debuffed to the ground." Blissbarb Archers and Blissbarb Seekers offer surprisingly good ranged damage for what are supposed to be chaff infantry/cavalry, and are super fast to boot - they are fragile, but can cover ground quickly and their medium range means you similarly need to be aggressive to get the most out of them. Ranged units in general are also just intriguing for Slaanesh with the new Depravity system, as one unit of Blissbarbs can easily tag you two summoning points a turn without getting stuck into combat, but it comes with the trade-off of the units being more fragile than a lot of your equivalent melee options. That's more interesting to me than just sitting 30" away and rolling dice without having to actually think about positioning. Sigvald's Attacks characteristic being tied to his charge roll makes me think it represents how interested he is in fighting something; a low charge roll signifies he doesn't feel the opponent is worthy of his time, and the opposite is true of a high charge roll. It's a cool rule all around, and he gets to fight first on the charge and is one of the only models in that game that straight up ignores after-saves, which alone makes him incredibly unique. Myrmidesh and Slickblades are the most 'boring' units, but they fill their roles quite well - Myrmidesh are hard-hitting melee bruisers that are great for holding objectives, and Slickblades are fast cavalry that pack a heavy punch. Slaangors are...well, the less said about them, the better. 

Here's the thing; the warscrolls for these units (with one obvious exception) aren't inherently bad. I would also argue they aren't dull - especially the daemonic side of things. You also get really strong battalion abilities that completely change how certain units act, and our allegiances might not focus on specific units, but they nonetheless unlock cool combos that other sub-factions can't necessarily do - Sigvald in Lurid Haze, a Bladebringer with the Circlet, etc. The problem, and the reason this army is having competitive issues, is because of points. We all agree the army has a lot of over-priced units. Is that indicative of bad rules designers? I don't think so. I think it's indicative that the rules designers observed how the first Slaanesh book was on release, made sweeping changes to the summoning mechanic to encourage diversity in lists beyond Keepers and minimum Battleline (which is a huge improvement and sign of actual effort, but whatever) but were cautious of delivering another meta-breaking faction right out of the gate. I've played in two tournaments with the army so far, and even against S-tier factions I've not felt like I was completely shut out off the game from the get-go; I made mistakes that I could have corrected which could have made a difference. I don't think the army is garbage, I just think it's very different and what works and doesn't work isn't obvious yet. I felt that the army could use 'more' but only in the sense that the points do feel very tight.

I genuinely feel that people are conflating the points issue with bad rules design, and that's where I have a problem with calling out the rules designers as inept. The new Depravity shows that they gave a damn about the army, lest they wouldn't have changed it and we'd have had all these new units rendered completely moot by a hero-centric mechanic that completely neutered most of the choices in the book, and that the perceived weakness of our army - which is due more to points than anything else - is being attributed to bad design, and I think that's simply not the case. 

so many pseudo arguments not worth my time, so you agree that one rule is more flavourful and feels better but then you gotta take the reductionist path of saying it is just another rule. Everything is just another model that has some rules we should be playing with atomistic see-through cubes then representing models. 


AoS and WHFB is a top down designed games so your argument is invalid. Flavour is the most important part for this game because the creation process starts with a model and then they slap a rule on top of that. Not being able to come up with some cool rules for amazing models is just bad for customers and sculptors. I hope no sculptors will be reprimanded for low sales by the higher ups because they are killing it. 


You keep saying that you cannot criticize designers because you don't know everything - doesnt that mean you can never criticize them? Yeah It's true I don't know maybe designer's close relatives died and they werent able to focus or something I am sorry for their loss but all I can see are those rules as a customer not the background. Seriously, Slaaanesh battletome is the only extremely weak release of the last year in AoS AND WH40k. (The Gresh's disciples or whatever that was in the first BR book have been FaQued to be playable and flavourful) It is so much bellow the GW standard it is kinda unreal.    (LRL amazing,  Lizardmen amazing even if you nerf kroak + skinks + sallies, SOB arguably good has some flavour problems with the warscroll mathematical smoothing whatever they perform well can go 4-1 competitively, DOK amazing the book reads so well (prayer FaQ fed up the internal balance but what can you do, Necrons firstcodex of the 9th edition some rough edges but a nice book, Drukhari amazing book,  DG amazing book, DA too strong bad flavour imo but a strong book)

This release is just a bad thing for slaaneshi players, fans, potential players. Slaanesh is already the leats popular chaos god, it got ****** rules, ****** points, ****** battletome, ****** battalions and warscrolls in it which will directly translate into sales and their future release schedule. Furthermore people seeing the discrepancy between boooks are already hoping that the gravelords wont be written by this Bin guy.  

[Jaskier]

Just as an addendum to what I wrote earlier, the synergy discussion with Slaanesh is definitely interesting. There's no real specific unit-hero combos like Blood Sisters with an Ironscale, or sub factions buffing specific units ala Kraith and Sisters of Slaughter. What we get instead are lots and lots of non-specific synergies. Most of our daemon heroes have a spell that can be cast multiple times which lets your whole army re-roll 1s to-hit against the target. Our big daemon hero has a command ability to let our Hedonite stuff double pile-in, which also has great synergy with things that can do 6" pile-ins. Our mortal wizard has an ability which lets your whole army add +1 on to-wound rolls against the target. Our mortal wizards have access to a spell that lets your whole army add +1 on to-hit rolls against the target based on a Bravery 'test', which synergizes with the daemon spell that reduces Bravery. Our mortal fighter hero has a command ability to let Hedonite mortals re-roll to-hit rolls. Our big mortal centrepiece hero gives out two seperate Bravery-related buffs, and provides a defensive buff in the form of a massive -1 to-hit bubble, which stacks well with things like Fiends - who also benefit strongly when fighting something debuffed with -1 to-wound from our generic mortal wizard.

These are all strong abilities, but the lack of specific combos and keyword synergies (outside of being largely restricted to Hedonites) absolutely makes them feel 'dull' as compared to everything else in the book. It's mostly just various ways to boost the armies' damage output, rather than unlocking cool new tactical options - Blood Sisters with a 2D6" run and the ability to charge afterwards are a much, much different unit to normal Blood Sisters, because they essentially morph from elite infantry into a deadly cavalry unit. I don't necessarily think it means we have weaker synergies than other armies, just ones that aren't very interesting. I can say it's fair to think the army plays a bit dull on the tabletop because of this, but I don't think it's an issue with the warscrolls individually - which I think have plenty of flavour - nor do I think it's indicative of lazy or inept rules design. There's tonnes of combos I've been trying and look forward to trying, and the book as a whole just feels like it has so much more 'freedom' now that the shackles of old Depravity are gone. I think once our points get put into a better spot than they are currently and we're able to fit in all the toys we want to fit in without list-building feeling so restrictive, I think most everyone here will be a lot happier about the book and come to find there's much more potential for writing fun and competitive lists than the old book offered. 

[Jaskier]

@Feii Flavour is subjective. I think the Slaanesh rules are plenty flavourful, and I also think the units themselves presenting interesting tactical dilemmas of how to effectively use them makes them more interesting than something that's point and click. That might be more down to playstyle, but from going 4-1 at two tournaments with DoK and just my other experiences with them, they've always felt incredibly 'point and click' to me. Not brainless, but compared to Slaanesh, not nearly as interesting. We disagree on this point, and that's fine. 

My argument is invalid because...what? In what way am I saying flavour isn't important? I literally commented in that Lumineth thread how much I like all the cool and different rules they have, and I'd like more armies to get stuff like that. What I'm saying is I think Slaanesh are perfectly comparable to other armies' in terms of rules flavour, at least from the perspective of warscrolls. Blood Sisters have a cool and unique mortal wound mechanic, whereas Slickblades have a simplistic mortal wound mechanic, but they also run and charge and, seeing as you mentioned battalions, they get access to one of the most tactically rewarding and fun abilities in the entire game, the coveted 6" pile-in. Even outside of that battalion, are they really so 'dull' compared to cavalry in other modern factions like Demigryph Knights or Gore-Gruntas? That's why I can't buy into the idea that this book was 'half-assed' or whatever, because I think that not only are they perfectly comparable to other armies, the rules designers clearly put a lot of effort into making a new Depravity mechanic that would see more than just Keepers and Chariots flying off of the shelves.

Point me to where I said you can't criticize them. I said it's childish to call them inept, refer to them as 'interns' and so on based on what I feel is a misguided belief that the army/warscrolls lack flavour compared to other books. The fact that I'm pointing out the points costs should be adjusted is itself a criticism. Implying they rushed the book or half-assed it because they don't care about the army or some other nonsense isn't constructive criticism, it's just throwing childish insults around, and that was my point. 

I also personally disagree with the perception that it's a horribly weak book and far below the curve. I don't think it's at Seraphon or Tzeentch tier, but a garbage army? Nah. I've not felt that at all in tournament matches so far - and by the by, these aren't just 'local tournaments against subpar lists', I've played against some top players in the country running incredibly strong lists. I think the army needs some points adjustments and it'll be set. As to your last paragraph, I'm sorry you feel that way about the army. I'm in the complete opposite boat. I hate to keep repeating myself, but I think the only change the book needs (besides a warscroll rewrite for Slaangors) is points adjustments. Long-term, we're in a much better place than we were with the old book thanks to the Depravity changes, and I honestly don't think that's arguable at this point, because our allegiance abilities aren't gimping non-hero units anymore. I think people will start warming to the book once they start figuring out what works and doesn't work for them - look at the initial reception to Sons of Behemat, and look how well people have been doing with them lately. Whether we follow the same curve or not remains to be seen, but in the mean-time, I think the hostile rhetoric towards the rules designers needs to chill - if I remember correctly, everyone here was super excited about the Depravity changes in particular and potential for the book until they saw the points. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[azdimy]

Will we ever see a point update for the forgeworld keeper? Now that the regular keeper CA can no longer be used on itself , the alternate could be worth bringing or summoning with updated points and summoning points

[Jaskier]

I'd say it's very likely it will get adjusted in the GHB and brought in line with the new Keeper/Shalaxi points. Dunno about warscroll changes, but presumably it will get tweaked to 12 DP as well.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

Just finished my Slickblades, The True Children of Skalig

[TimeToWaste85]

3 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Seems to be a hell of a lot of fuss over the LRL release. Has anyone had a chance to look over the rumours, and if so, how's their costing looking compared to ours?

Well, their f***ing wind-cat-spirit has a base move of 24”, destroys faction terrain on a 2+...I got that far and moved away. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by TimeToWaste85

[umpac]

13 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Well, their f***ing wind-cat-spirit has a base move of 24”, destroys faction terrain on a 2+...I got that far and moved away. 

I dont get the fuss about it to be honest. Yeah its fast and has some solid utility in its ability to provide -1 hit and reduce pile-in range but it has very bad damage output (4.5 wounds vs 4+) unless you use the Searing winds ability to proc some mortal wounds, but then you're putting him well within charging distance which is a big risk and it still not good dmg output. The only thing that stands out to me as "overpowered" is that he can move 12" in BOTH shooting phases, but I assume it's unintended and will be addressed in the FAQ'd. 

As Slaanesh I would much rather fight Fox-Sonic-Wind-Furry than Avalor or a no-name Goat-Cow-Mountain. For 300 they are also forced to either take out Teclis or be really light on bodies and I welcome both. I guess destroying faction terrain can be devastating to our summoning since LRL can snipe heroes very easily but you can just play around it by screening it. Im much more worried about Teclis getting a healing and teleport spell.

Edited March 27, 2021 by umpac

[TimeToWaste85]

31 minutes ago, umpac said:

I dont get the fuss about it to be honest. Yeah its fast and has some solid utility in its ability to provide -1 hit and reduce pile-in range but it has very bad damage output (4.5 wounds vs 4+) unless you use the Searing winds ability to proc some mortal wounds, but then you're putting him well within charging distance which is a big risk and it still not good dmg output. The only thing that stands out to me as "overpowered" is that he can move 12" in BOTH shooting phases, but I assume it's unintended and will be addressed in the FAQ'd. 

As Slaanesh I would much rather fight Fox-Sonic-Wind-Furry than Avalor or a no-name Goat-Cow-Mountain. For 300 they are also forced to either take out Teclis or be really light on bodies and I welcome both. I guess destroying faction terrain can be devastating to our summoning since LRL can snipe heroes very easily but you can just play around it by screening it. Im much more worried about Teclis getting a healing and teleport spell.

Well, we’re currently costed the way we are (depending on what you read) based on summoning cost. If they can remove every body that can summon AND remove the terrain that can summon...it’s a bit disturbing. Our costs really hurt at that point. 

[Feii]

58 minutes ago, umpac said:

I dont get the fuss about it to be honest. Yeah its fast and has some solid utility in its ability to provide -1 hit and reduce pile-in range but it has very bad damage output (4.5 wounds vs 4+) unless you use the Searing winds ability to proc some mortal wounds, but then you're putting him well within charging distance which is a big risk and it still not good dmg output. The only thing that stands out to me as "overpowered" is that he can move 12" in BOTH shooting phases, but I assume it's unintended and will be addressed in the FAQ'd. 

As Slaanesh I would much rather fight Fox-Sonic-Wind-Furry than Avalor or a no-name Goat-Cow-Mountain. For 300 they are also forced to either take out Teclis or be really light on bodies and I welcome both. I guess destroying faction terrain can be devastating to our summoning since LRL can snipe heroes very easily but you can just play around it by screening it. Im much more worried about Teclis getting a healing and teleport spell.

To be fair people claiming that 24 movement split into 2 phases (Stronger than a singular 24) per your turn is not imba is a little bit absurd. Especially with the possibbility of smaller boards in the 3rd ED.


This is 24 Movement innate abilty you dont stack a spell and a CA on top of it he just does it. The XYZ-creep is kinda ridiculous. 

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Well, their f***ing wind-cat-spirit has a base move of 24”, destroys faction terrain on a 2+...I got that far and moved away. 

It is worth considering that a lot of the cool stuff are from leaders, which means if a LRL player wants it all the army will be tiny. Not ideal in a game about scoring objectives. Sevireth the wind dude is 300pts, I think, which is a big investment in utility and harassment (which is something the army isn't lacking in). Same deal with the rest of the army, if you try to do it all you quickly run out of points. Initial impressions can be misleading before we actually see some lists. Looks solid though.

It also be funny to land a Pavane of Slaanesh on him. 24 on a 5+ MWs. Dance, dance, like the wind! 

It is also interesting to ponder what might be in store for us when the Broken Realms relevant to Slaanesh hits. Could it even be something relating the newly awakened shard of Slaanesh? It is very much a part of Morathi's ascension and the on-going story, after all. I doubt it'll be the next one up but it could be a part of its climax and launch us into a 3rd edition. Or one of the two, or neither.

Could the Shard of Slaanesh be our next super-unit? GW do seem to like to release those centrepiece units lately.

Edited March 27, 2021 by pnkdth

[AngryPanda]

I want to play an army that will be challenging but balanced for my opponent, unique and flavorful to play, and also fun to collect and build lists with. The models are fun to collect, and the book is somewhat unique, but it does feel weak. 
 

On a related note, back in October I was super exited about the Deathwatch release for 40k, and I purchased the Star Collecting! box of Vanguard Primaris Marines and painted them in a woodland forest camo theme. The book aged very poorly (2017-2020), and unlike every other SM faction that received the new primaris units, we received none; Deathwatch were arguably the most neglected imperial army within 40k.
 

You would think they would receive a nice and well-deserved, much needed update to breath life back into the faction.

When the book dropped, I and many DW players were super disappointed: they essentially gutted an already outdated and struggling army, and replaced it with a hollow shell of a book. They got rid of Special Issue Ammunition (which they lied and said that they were going to include it), they removed the benefits of taking  multiple models within a squad (pushing players to create “monosqauds” that are extremely unfaithful to the lore), and failed to give us a super doctrine. 
 

Months later, the DW have yet to do well in any tournaments. In fact, they’ve actually went down in effectiveness! I know it’s the covid and tournaments haven’t been super common, but 40k is more popular then AoS in terms of competitive play, and the books been out for a long time and there’s been enough data at this point to come to some conclusions. Linked below is the Goonhammer meta watch that recently went over the data: 

 

Goonhammer Metawatch for March 2021

 

The reason I mentioned Deathwatch is because GW has made some crappy design choices in the past when it came to building new codexes or battletomes. Sometimes, they’re afraid of making bold choices (which they may believe will break the game, but this is speculation), and they mess up and give us products that are underwhelming. 
 

Sadly, many within the DW community took it with a grain of salt and approached it with “positivity” by glancing over all the problems the book had, and didn’t want to take action. A lot of players have left, and now the army and book are in another state of disarray just a few months after release, which is just sad. 
 

Sadly, I now have the same feeling towards Hedonites of Slaanesh. 
 

Now, the good news is that it’s not as an extreme case as Deathwatch. The warscrolls and rules have me excited, and although they do lack some uniqueness/flavor, it isn’t as overarching. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is synergy within the army, especially within the sub-allegiances and from heroes. The issue is the point costs, which mostly everyone within the community has agreed are pretty absurd. 
 

Games workshop is stubborn with its decisions, and often refuses to make corrections or admit to being incorrect even when mistakes are clearly made. The recent FAQ should of changed Fiendbloods, which I truly believe are the worst unit in AoS; the lack of change indicates the decision to make them this weak was on purpose. Which is strange, considering the Fiendblood in Dread Pageant has stats that are theoretically what we’re originally planned for the units debut in AoS. 
 

I agree that we wait for the Lumineth, but if the release is superior then ours, then I highly suggest we organize some respectful means of communicating our displeasure with the release. 

[Feii]

10 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I want to play an army that will be challenging but balanced for my opponent, unique and flavorful to play, and also fun to collect and build lists with. The models are fun to collect, and the book is somewhat unique, but it does feel weak. 
 

On a related note, back in October I was super exited about the Deathwatch release for 40k, and I purchased the Star Collecting! box of Vanguard Primaris Marines and painted them in a woodland forest camo theme. The book aged very poorly (2017-2020), and unlike every other SM faction that received the new primaris units, we received none; Deathwatch were arguably the most neglected imperial army within 40k.
 

You would think they would receive a nice and well-deserved, much needed update to breath life back into the faction.

When the book dropped, I and many DW players were super disappointed: they essentially gutted an already outdated and struggling army, and replaced it with a hollow shell of a book. They got rid of Special Issue Ammunition (which they lied and said that they were going to include it), they removed the benefits of taking  multiple models within a squad (pushing players to create “monosqauds” that are extremely unfaithful to the lore), and failed to give us a super doctrine. 
 

Months later, the DW have yet to do well in any tournaments. In fact, they’ve actually went down in effectiveness! I know it’s the covid and tournaments haven’t been super common, but 40k is more popular then AoS in terms of competitive play, and the books been out for a long time and there’s been enough data at this point to come to some conclusions. Linked below is the Goonhammer meta watch that recently went over the data: 

 

Goonhammer Metawatch for March 2021

 

The reason I mentioned Deathwatch is because GW has made some crappy design choices in the past when it came to building new codexes or battletomes. Sometimes, they’re afraid of making bold choices (which they may believe will break the game, but this is speculation), and they mess up and give us products that are underwhelming. 
 

Sadly, many within the DW community took it with a grain of salt and approached it with “positivity” by glancing over all the problems the book had, and didn’t want to take action. A lot of players have left, and now the army and book are in another state of disarray just a few months after release, which is just sad. 
 

Sadly, I now have the same feeling towards Hedonites of Slaanesh. 
 

Now, the good news is that it’s not as an extreme case as Deathwatch. The warscrolls and rules have me excited, and although they do lack some uniqueness/flavor, it isn’t as overarching. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is synergy within the army, especially within the sub-allegiances and from heroes. The issue is the point costs, which mostly everyone within the community has agreed are pretty absurd. 
 

Games workshop is stubborn with its decisions, and often refuses to make corrections or admit to being incorrect even when mistakes are clearly made. The recent FAQ should of changed Fiendbloods, which I truly believe are the worst unit in AoS; the lack of change indicates the decision to make them this weak was on purpose. Which is strange, considering the Fiendblood in Dread Pageant has stats that are theoretically what we’re originally planned for the units debut in AoS. 
 

I agree that we wait for the Lumineth, but if the release is superior then ours, then I highly suggest we organize some respectful means of communicating our displeasure with the release. 

To be fair DW being SM army specialized in not dealing with SM but xenos will make you weaker because up to 40% of the field can be SM in a tournament. 

I think DW is in a much better spot than Slaanesh they just need to rework special issue ammunition for primaris gear or rework the stratagem to cost 1 CP and to not change the weapon type to Heavy 1. Also DW has 240ish separate rules altogether. Great psychic powers and good squads, which cannot be said about slaanesh. (and their best squads cost $$$$) 

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

Now, the good news is that it’s not as an extreme case as Deathwatch. The warscrolls and rules have me excited, and although they do lack some uniqueness/flavor, it isn’t as overarching. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe there is synergy within the army, especially within the sub-allegiances and from heroes. The issue is the point costs, which mostly everyone within the community has agreed are pretty absurd. 
 

Games workshop is stubborn with its decisions, and often refuses to make corrections or admit to being incorrect even when mistakes are clearly made. The recent FAQ should of changed Fiendbloods, which I truly believe are the worst unit in AoS; the lack of change indicates the decision to make them this weak was on purpose. Which is strange, considering the Fiendblood in Dread Pageant has stats that are theoretically what we’re originally planned for the units debut in AoS. 
 

I agree that we wait for the Lumineth, but if the release is superior then ours, then I highly suggest we organize some respectful means of communicating our displeasure with the release. 

Yeah, I also think a points reduction will do us a world of good simply by how more units/bodies contribute to DP and summoning. 

Fiendbloods are just confusing. They don't add anything new to the army, they're inefficient against other units, and could have just been left out to be put in the BoC book whenever that arrives.

[AngryPanda]

2 hours ago, Feii said:

To be fair DW being SM army specialized in not dealing with SM but xenos will make you weaker because up to 40% of the field can be SM in a tournament. 

I think DW is in a much better spot than Slaanesh they just need to rework special issue ammunition for primaris gear or rework the stratagem to cost 1 CP and to not change the weapon type to Heavy 1. Also DW has 240ish separate rules altogether. Great psychic powers and good squads, which cannot be said about slaanesh. (and their best squads cost $$$$) 

Honestly, I just think a point reduction would solve a lot of the problems the Slaanesh book has. If everything was reasonably costed, we’d be B or A tier; S tier would still belong to Seraphon, KO, and Idoneth (which are 100% going to receive a nerf). Lurid Haze is pretty potent, especially with Sigvald or something else that’s nasty infiltrating from the side of the board. Godseekers with Slickblades/other calvary or chariots in a Seeker Cavalcade are hands down one of the best calvary-based forces in the game. Glutos is good for castles or some “fun” lists (Archaon and Glutos tag team is gonna rock the tournament scene). The ability to summon means I can always bring in an Infernal Entrapturess at 7 DP to mess with spell caster armies like Lumineth; I can also drop a unit of fiends or Daemonettes to cause damage and hold objectives respectively. 

It’s mostly the foot slogging mortals that need the most attention via point decreases. Fiendbloods need a rework or buff to their warscroll, and maybe a point decrease; there’s no exception to the rewrite of the rules. 
 

In my opinion, Deathwatch are worse because even though they have great psychic  powers, they lack the powerful special rules that other SM chapters have, which have made SM’s at the top of the competitive scene. Particularly, super doctrines and general strategems that would be useful in most situations that are available to other SM chapters; DW strats are only useful against the handful of Xenos in an otherwise Imperium dominated meta. If they brought back SIA via paying additional points to purchase, it would make the faction a lot more unique, essentially becoming a super doctrine in itself; but as it stands they’ve been performing very poorly compared to other SM armies who have superior rules and abilities. 
 

As an example, why take DW Eradicators in a mixed squad when you can take them as Salamanders that are much better, or why take a DW eliminators when you can take them as Raven Guard? Why go DW melee when Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves are far more rewarding to that play style? Sure, these mixed squads would be troops, but you can just buy the cheap tactical or Primaris marines by themselves to fill those slots, and then spend the rest of your points on all the Killy stuff. You’re even penalized in some cases for taking mixed squads, as nobody would keep outriders or assault intercessors in the same squad as normal intercessors. DW lack the incentive to bring mixed squads because they lack rules that make them comparable to other armies, and along with the lack of flavor, has fundamentally crippled an already bleeding army.

I believe that once Slaanesh gets some point reductions (if or whenever this will happen), we will be in a much better spot and the battletome will have a chance to shine. However, there needs to be an organized and coherent petition or emails sent in order for this to happen, as I believe GW only makes changes like this if the community responds in abundance, which I’m all for so long as it’s done respectfully and not with pitch forks. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by AngryPanda

[Sorrow]

In my opinion,  Myrmidesh, Symbaresh and Slaangors are the ones that need to be reevaluated and/or buffed up.

If our melee infantry above was fixed, I am absolutely happy with the state of Hedonites.

[Feii]

I dont think the point cuts will do it  I agree with Vince that Slaanesh is in a way the second worst book out rn (the last one getting an update soon) 

 

[herohammer]

7 hours ago, LeonBox said:

Seems to be a hell of a lot of fuss over the LRL release. Has anyone had a chance to look over the rumours, and if so, how's their costing looking compared to ours?

Honestly pretty similar for the new stuff. The unfortunate thing is that they didn’t change any of the costs on the older stuff which remains too good for its points for the most part cows and cowboys aside of course. The LRL players have already decided for the most part, particularly on other forums, that most of the new stuff would need to go down in points to be worth it over spamming archers and spearmen with teclis and a cathalar.

[Sorrow]

@Feii

They are not going to rewrite the entire battletome for years to come. We all know this.

The best we can do is petition for cost and/or stats change on some units.  I said my piece, our melee infantry needs to be better.  If we achieve that, I guarantee to every one of you that we  will rise to top tier armies. 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Sorrow

[Feii]

Also I would like to say that Slaaneshi book being very simple means the learning curve is low. When it comes to LRL it is possible the hardest book to learn in the game rn but it allows a steep learning curve which translates into good winrates for people who put the reps in. 

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, Feii said:

Also I would like to say that Slaaneshi book being very simple means the learning curve is low. When it comes to LRL it is possible the hardest book to learn in the game rn but it allows a steep learning curve which translates into good winrates for people who put the reps in. 

I would disagree here. Yes, we have fewer base rules to memorise, but we need to be used well to make the most of our rules. 

For example, another faction may have more rules that are like "+1 to hit for x unit within y" of a hero", or adding two spells together to make a combo. These are kind of complex, but read about them and use them once, and that's usually the limit to the complexity. 

Other books like Lumineth have a wide array of rules which can be hard to remember, but basic combos are simple and then the aetherquarts (and new pile in stuff) are where the complexity comes in.

We don't have much to memorise, but Slaanesh is far from simple. Memorisation is the most simple part of an army, and in game tactics the hardest part. Slaanesh has a lot of gameplay decisions that make up its strategy, and it's why you see so many inexperienced Slaanesh players lose. Most armies in AoS can get away with 'combo up, smash face'. Slaanesh requires a careful hand because it doesn't offer help when it comes to unlocking the army's potential. 

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, Feii said:

Also I would like to say that Slaaneshi book being very simple means the learning curve is low. When it comes to LRL it is possible the hardest book to learn in the game rn but it allows a steep learning curve which translates into good winrates for people who put the reps in. 

Completely disagree. LRL is for the most part fairly straightforwards and self-sufficient. Command/magic is about buffing units and there's very little interactions between characters and auras. Teclis adds easy and reliable magic and then shooting/MWs does the rest. In a tough spot, pop an aetherquartz. MWG do well with LRL so it can't be that tough. You can create more complex lists but most people won't. Those who chase the meta rarely wants something complex, after all. Since complex and/or swingy tactics doesn't win consistently and make a poor/unexpected match-up more likely. Striving for reliable lists in a dice game in order to get 3-5 wins in a row versus a wide range of opponents creates a player who think and play different than most of us. Indeed, for the vast majority of players the local meta will dictate choice and army over the wider tournament meta.

Which is why I disagree with Vince on what he defines as good design. Not all army books have to be obvious what they want you to do. I would even argue that if you are able to tell the story of a unit without bloating the warscroll with tons of additional rules then that is great design. Currently I think we have enough, for example, the Twinsouls. A fairly simple warscroll but using them successfully will hinge on your ability to maximise their alternating abilities. Glutos is another unit which plays into the sequence of game to max out potential. Then there are plenty of debuffs and tricks you can pull to further make you army either tougher or even faster. Finally there's summoning which is the 1st trap I think most new players will fall into, namely, to farm DPs for the sake of DPs and at the expense of their battle plan. 

The theme is controlling the tempo through speed or abilities (-1s, locus, summoning, Glutos, Sigvald) over the course of the game. Most people who's actually went in and tested the army have come to a similar conclusion that it always feels like we lose out on one or two units or that battalion being just outside of our reach. That can be easily solved by shaving some points off our units. I really cannot see how people reach the conclusion that the entire battletome is a poorly designed mess and require a total rewrite. 

TL;DR: We all end up preferring different armies and like with most things in life we will find a way to decide for X and Y reasons that the army we prefer right now is either 1) the most awesome 2) super tactical 3) etc etc. I am probably wrong in the eyes of another who consider LRL to friggin' perfect and HoS a piece of trash. I still won't switch over to LRL. I think there's lots of interesting synergies and variants to figure out for HoS. If you don't, then you shouldn't. You should play with the army you enjoy, no matter what I or anyone else say.

Edited March 27, 2021 by pnkdth

[Jaskier]

Just to echo a few things in here; 

Slaangors unfortunately aren't likely to receive a warscroll update anytime soon. Getting warscroll rewrites in FAQs just isn't common, especially not so soon after a release. Similarly, we were never going to get points changes in our first FAQ. There's also a chance we won't see points changes in the GHB depending on if it's still scheduled for release this year, as it may well have already gone to print before any conclusive data can be drawn about how Slaanesh is performing. That's not indicative that GW doesn't like the army, that just means we might have to wait a bit for whatever changes we might need. 

Points are the problem. We have synergies (if not as 'interesting' as for some other factions) and we have good warscrolls, allegiance rules, etc. Our allegiance rules are in a much better place than they were - not necessarily stronger, but also not so restrictive in terms of what works and doesn't work for us - and those are the kind of things that typically don't get changed outside of brand new battletomes, whereas points get adjusted every year. Hence, the short-term might not look so great to some (it looks fine to me) but long-term everything is looking up, because the points will inevitably change, whether it's this year or next (and you can blame COVID for any inaction on GW's part.) Heck, even Slaangors won't look so terrible if they drop to 80-100 points.  

I also share the sentiment that Slaanesh are by no means a 'simple' army. Slaanesh by its very nature is an army that isn't designed to be a blunt hammer (Khorne) but also doesn't have strong shooting/magic (Tzeentch) or high resilience (Nurgle.) Slaanesh' defining characteristic has always been speed, and many elements of the army fill the typical 'glass cannon' role, though the army also has lots of ways to pin enemies in place or debuff them. Their summoning mechanic is also more complex than any of the other Chaos Gods' factions, operating on units being damaged but not destroyed, which can present difficult tactical choices to someone looking to generate as many summoning points as they can. The only comparable one is Khorne in terms of having to choose between summoning units or getting Blood Tithe abilities, but the actual generation aspect is much simpler. By all rights, Slaanesh should be (and in my opinion, are) the hardest of the four main Chaos factions to play well at a high level, because they don't excel in the ways that other armies typically do. Slaanesh can't just steamroll an army like Warclans do. Slaanesh can't just shoot an opponent off the table like Kharadrons do. Slaanesh can't just survive anything that gets thrown at them like Fyreslayers do. That doesn't mean they're weak, it justs means your path to victory isn't as 'simple' as it is for other factions - it usually involves playing more to the mission, leveraging our summoning for late-game objective grabs, etc which Slaanesh does very well. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Jaskier

[Feii]

9 hours ago, pnkdth said:

Completely disagree. LRL is for the most part fairly straightforwards and self-sufficient. Command/magic is about buffing units and there's very little interactions between characters and auras. Teclis adds easy and reliable magic and then shooting/MWs does the rest. In a tough spot, pop an aetherquartz. MWG do well with LRL so it can't be that tough. You can create more complex lists but most people won't. Those who chase the meta rarely wants something complex, after all. Since complex and/or swingy tactics doesn't win consistently and make a poor/unexpected match-up more likely. Striving for reliable lists in a dice game in order to get 3-5 wins in a row versus a wide range of opponents creates a player who think and play different than most of us. Indeed, for the vast majority of players the local meta will dictate choice and army over the wider tournament meta.

Which is why I disagree with Vince on what he defines as good design. Not all army books have to be obvious what they want you to do. I would even argue that if you are able to tell the story of a unit without bloating the warscroll with tons of additional rules then that is great design. Currently I think we have enough, for example, the Twinsouls. A fairly simple warscroll but using them successfully will hinge on your ability to maximise their alternating abilities. Glutos is another unit which plays into the sequence of game to max out potential. Then there are plenty of debuffs and tricks you can pull to further make you army either tougher or even faster. Finally there's summoning which is the 1st trap I think most new players will fall into, namely, to farm DPs for the sake of DPs and at the expense of their battle plan. 

The theme is controlling the tempo through speed or abilities (-1s, locus, summoning, Glutos, Sigvald) over the course of the game. Most people who's actually went in and tested the army have come to a similar conclusion that it always feels like we lose out on one or two units or that battalion being just outside of our reach. That can be easily solved by shaving some points off our units. I really cannot see how people reach the conclusion that the entire battletome is a poorly designed mess and require a total rewrite. 

TL;DR: We all end up preferring different armies and like with most things in life we will find a way to decide for X and Y reasons that the army we prefer right now is either 1) the most awesome 2) super tactical 3) etc etc. I am probably wrong in the eyes of another who consider LRL to friggin' perfect and HoS a piece of trash. I still won't switch over to LRL. I think there's lots of interesting synergies and variants to figure out for HoS. If you don't, then you shouldn't. You should play with the army you enjoy, no matter what I or anyone else say.

Vince doesn't include warscrolls in his battletome design chart.  


It kinda baffles me that you start your comment with saying that you  donm't agree with LRL being more complicated to play then you TLDR it with "I like this army more" your taste is a subjective thing and more power to you if you enjoy playing something and dedicate yourself to mastering an army but at the same time it is not an argument for which army is more complicated to play.  Playing an easier to play army isn't a bad thing ffs, I don't understand why people keep taking it personally and try to be tough guys "My army is super hard to play tooo!!!" ffs