AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Nasrod]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

This is spot on and proven by the general reception to Sons of Behemat. The big personalities famously decried it as the 'worst battletome/faction ever' yet actual tournament results shows it is consistently a 4-2/4-1/3-2 army, i.e. slotting comfortably into where most battletomes sit. They're just an army that requires the player to play to their particular strengths and be acutely aware of their limitations, and I see Slaanesh as no different. 

Okay, but with a month to reflect, I'm so disappointed in this battletome that I cannot begin to express it. 

But boy will I try. 

Sons of Behemat plays how you would imagine it; giant brutes that literally bully the opponent, the terrain, and even the objectives!

Bonereapers redefined the meaning of "castle" and despite having a much deserved nerf and some list building woes, end up feeling as intended. Elite, premium units that forego movement tricks for raw combat prowess. Relentless Discipline points and Hekatos ooze with intended flavor. 

Idoneth's only "bad" units are the on foot jobbers that no one cares about; people play it for awesome sea critters and all of those choices are now fantastic post Broken Realms. Aquaman didn't fight every problem with 21 eels; you can argue 21 eels was a weaker list and IDK certainly needs a nerf, but anything that pulls us away from "My army is literally 2 models and 4 sculpts" is a net positive.

Slaanesh?

Off the back of an initial half-release, saw 4 months of oppressive dominance and then ate 3 nerfs in a row, despite the fact that no army save Nighthaunt suffered more from losing Malign Sorcery artifacts, to say nothing about how the meta morphed into oppressive shooting and ranged magical threats that slammed our previously oppressive hero hammer strategy into the dirt. Our compensation when our mortal units were released 2 years late?

We're now a glass canon army penalized for killing opponents, encouraged to build in a way that allows us to survive hits, that had the only ability to feasibly allow such a playstyle removed from the army (RIP Locus; nerf number 4, by the way), while also suffering another points hike (Nerf number 5!) as a penalty for our summoning, which in and of itself was made weaker as well. That is nerf number 6 across 2 years, for you folks at home not keeping track. 

I don't want the days of "Buy 3 Keepers, get 1 free!" to return. Thermal Rider cloak is where it belongs: not in the game. Release HoS 1.0 was very unfun foe the opponent with no incentive to run anything other than heroes. And I know the army has viable builds with 2.0, likely improved once some of the points costs are made more reasonable.

But at the end of the day, HoS 2.0 will still be the only Chaos faction whose core summoning mechanic is the antithesis of their established strengths. And if you remove Depravity Points from the equation...well, they were the only flavorful ability in the book.

And Slaanesh would mourn a flavorless fight. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Nasrod

[Jaskier]

2 hours ago, Nasrod said:

We're now a glass canon army penalized for killing opponents, encouraged to build in a way that allows us to survive hits, that had the only ability to feasibly allow such a playstyle removed from the army (RIP Locus; nerf number 4, by the way), while also suffering another points hike (Nerf number 5!) as a penalty for our summoning, which in and of itself was made weaker as well. That is nerf number 6 across 2 years, for you folks at home not keeping track. 

I don't want the days of "Buy 3 Keepers, get 1 free!" to return. Thermal Rider cloak is where it belongs: not in the game. Release HoS 1.0 was very unfun foe the opponent with no incentive to run anything other than heroes. And I know the army has viable builds with 2.0, likely improved once some of the points costs are made more reasonable.

But at the end of the day, HoS 2.0 will still be the only Chaos faction whose core summoning mechanic is the antithesis of their established strengths. And if you remove Depravity Points from the equation...well, they were the only flavorful ability in the book.

And Slaanesh would mourn a flavorless fight. 

I find your post interesting specifically when viewed in the context of the various changes the faction has received since our first book dropped. Our old book was designed in a way that big, killy heroes were the only things worth running because our summoning mechanic only rewarded that kind of list. You would never see things like Fiends or a proper investment in anything besides heroes and Battleline because the book practically beat you over the head about its laser-tight focus on heroes above all. 

New Depravity is slower and you get less of it, no doubt, but to your point, our faction is actually much better prepared to deal with shooting meta than before. Three Keepers, minimum Battleline and a few other odds and ends couldn't survive shooting meta, meaning the good builds largely revolved turned into mostly Slaves or Beasts armies with a Slaanesh coating. Now that our summoning isn't tied to heroes, our lists are looking much different - instead of 3 Keepers, now you're seeing lots of Exalted Seekers, Fiends and, yes, Slaves and Beasts stuff. You're seeing more meat, more wounds and more units - more diversity - which are better equipped to survive than before; our lists are generally much tougher, meaning in theory we are going to be much better off surviving shooting meta in the long term. The reason you're still seeing Slaves and Beasts stuff is because our stuff is overpointed, not because the warscrolls suck (the swole exception being Slaangors, though at 80-100 points they wouldn't be half bad) or our allegiance abilities suck. 

New Depravity is a change that had to be made for the health of the army, and in the long run I see it and the new options putting our book in a much better place than it was a few months ago - we just need to see some key points drops so we aren't overpaying for stuff. Drop Myrmidesh to about the 120 mark, Hellstriders to 100-110, Blissbarbs to 100, etc and we're in business. As for the Locus, everyone and their parent hated the old rule precisely because it was unfun and, unlike what you claim, unflavourful; fighting twice and wiping out your opponents' stuff before they got a chance to fight actually runs counter to the idea of delivering pain and feeding off of it in turn. It is another change that needed to happen, and thematically the new one makes more sense - it's weaker in many cases (i.e. against monsters and heroes) and better in others (hordes) which both makes it more of a tactical tool and makes it far less frustrating for everyone involved. 

The army is also harder to use than most others by design - Slaanesh are defined by swiftness, deadliness in combat and fragility. They aren't meant to be a blunt hammer or stoic anvil, but something more unique - hence why the army has even more tools than before to debuff enemies, hinder movement and cross the table at blinding speed, and the new Depravity means we summon less but - especially once the points change - the army will start out much tougher to compensate; as I've said before, my 2019 book lists averaged around 80-90 wounds, whereas all my 2021 book lists average around 130-140 wounds. 

I can go into it more, especially with the tournament experience I've had with the army against some top players, but I maintain the changes to Depravity and Locus will long-term be better for the health of the army, especially coupled with the new units giving us some good tools that we'd otherwise have to look to other factions for, and we're only in the situation we're in because the points costs on a lot of our stuff are obviously in need of changing. The book is more flavourful and has more options than ever, and isn't monobuild with over half the roster being permanently useless because of allegiance rules - points changes are what we need, unlike the old book that clearly needed a design rework. 

My big takeaways from my two tournaments so far have been pretty wildly different thanks to running very different lists each time, but the consistent one is the Battleline situation. Chaos Warriors are great, but they're slow as hell and can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Myrmidesh will be much, much better as small units when they get their much needed cut. Blissbarbs have a great warscroll - good damage and mobility, great Depravity generators - but are way too expensive. Hellstriders are better than before; fast, tough Battleline that can screen our fast elements and be annoying, but they are also nearly 50% more expensive than before. All those units also fit into battalions, which besides Seeker Cavalcade I couldn't justify running at the moment. When we get those drops and not have to fill up on Chaos Warriors just to be efficient, our lists will start to feel much better because we'll have options to fill whatever role meeds fiing and more easily fill battalions to lower our drops and unlock more of our great artifacts (running Lurid Haze with no battalions has really made me appreciate just how incredible the Rod of Misrule really is.) 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Jaskier

[ibel]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

The reason you're still seeing Slaves and Beasts stuff is because our stuff is overpointed, not because the warscrolls suck

I totally Agree. The Warscrolls or the Rules didnt suck, the Points sucks. Everything by the Mortals and some Daemons too is to  expensice.

Drop the Points by 10 to 25% and u get B.Seekers für 180, Archer for 120 (with a Massbonus of 330 for 33) Twinsouls for 140 or Myridian for 120. So U can take in a Mortal based Army 2-3 Units more, so u can Play the MSU Play, generate easier enough DP to Play this game and the MissionPoint Game.

It would not be a FreeWin, it would not be to easy to win, it wouln`nt a GO-CHARGE-WIN-Game. But it would be okay. AND GW would sell more Minis

Edited March 22, 2021 by ibel

[TheArborealWalrus]

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

We're now a glass canon army penalized for killing opponents,

Most of what you said is right, but I don't feel like it's a penalty. I go for the kill, but if they survive I get some compensation. It's up to us to focus on winning instead of depravity. Kind of feels right, that we have to keep focused and not lose ourselves to depravity for the mission. Points are a bit high for that to be easy though ... I haven't played too many games, but the summoning definitely seems to be a mechanic the army can't survive without.

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Depravity Points from the equation...well, they were the only flavorful ability in the book.

Unfortunately true. Depravity rewards you for playing with your food which is absolutely a Slaanesh thing, but  the additional hits on 6s feels more like a Khorne ability than a Slaanesh one (to me). I don't have any better ideas that don't also step on one or more of the other god's abilities, but depravity is a good fit.

Alright, I've got two questions. Question 1: I've seen multiple people talk about getting depravity at the end of the turn but it explicitly states that you get them in the battleshock phase. That happens in both player turns. Am I missing something or was it just a case of poor word choice?

2: So this is a question of focus. We have some of the fastest cavalry in the game, but comparatively slow infantry. Should we just focus on the cav and leave the slow pokes behind or try for a mixed approach? I feel like ignoring the fast cav altogether would be a mistake. I've been messing about with percentages of points spent on both and haven't quite reached a conclusion. About 50% has had an alright feel, but like many others have said I usually feel like I'm missing a unit or battalion.

I've gotten off track  - Question 2: How focused on our cavalry should we be at list construction? What percentage of points should be spent on these speedsters? (I'm counting anyone moving 12" up as a part of this too)

[Enoby]

3 hours ago, Nasrod said:

Okay, but with a month to reflect, I'm so disappointed in this battletome that I cannot begin to express it. 

But boy will I try. 

Sons of Behemat plays how you would imagine it; giant brutes that literally bully the opponent, the terrain, and even the objectives!

Bonereapers redefined the meaning of "castle" and despite having a much deserved nerf and some list building woes, end up feeling as intended. Elite, premium units that forego movement tricks for raw combat prowess. Relentless Discipline points and Hekatos ooze with intended flavor. 

Idoneth's only "bad" units are the on foot jobbers that no one cares about; people play it for awesome sea critters and all of those choices are now fantastic post Broken Realms. Aquaman didn't fight every problem with 21 eels; you can argue 21 eels was a weaker list and IDK certainly needs a nerf, but anything that pulls us away from "My army is literally 2 models and 4 sculpts" is a net positive.

Slaanesh?

Off the back of an initial half-release, saw 4 months of oppressive dominance and then ate 3 nerfs in a row, despite the fact that no army save Nighthaunt suffered more from losing Malign Sorcery artifacts, to say nothing about how the meta morphed into oppressive shooting and ranged magical threats that slammed our previously oppressive hero hammer strategy into the dirt. Our compensation when our mortal units were released 2 years late?

We're now a glass canon army penalized for killing opponents, encouraged to build in a way that allows us to survive hits, that had the only ability to feasibly allow such a playstyle removed from the army (RIP Locus; nerf number 4, by the way), while also suffering another points hike (Nerf number 5!) as a penalty for our summoning, which in and of itself was made weaker as well. That is nerf number 6 across 2 years, for you folks at home not keeping track. 

I don't want the days of "Buy 3 Keepers, get 1 free!" to return. Thermal Rider cloak is where it belongs: not in the game. Release HoS 1.0 was very unfun foe the opponent with no incentive to run anything other than heroes. And I know the army has viable builds with 2.0, likely improved once some of the points costs are made more reasonable.

But at the end of the day, HoS 2.0 will still be the only Chaos faction whose core summoning mechanic is the antithesis of their established strengths. And if you remove Depravity Points from the equation...well, they were the only flavorful ability in the book.

And Slaanesh would mourn a flavorless fight. 

It's a shame you feel that way, though I would argue against that we're flavourless.

With the other armies you mentioned, all of their flavour is immediately obvious in their battletome. SoB have the flavour of big giants, and so they have giant warscrolls that have 35 wounds and decent damage. Ossiarchs want to tank, so they have an easy way (though not as easy as before) to get a 3+ rr save. Idoneth want sea creatures, so they have a way to make eels fantastic on the charge which combos with their ASF tide.

All of these armies have very obvious ways to play, and the combos/best units are simple, effective, and worked out within a month or so. 

So what does Slaanesh do? 

It's easy to say "well it doesn't combo and has very little internal synergy to dictate lists, unlike most other armies in the game." This, for the most part, is true. However, Slaanesh does have an internal running theme taken from it's GHB2018 days. To make it clearer, let's look at some of our abilities found in our warscrolls:

- 2 spells to stop the opponent using command abilities, and one of these stops a hero from running or charging too

- an easy 12" -1 to hit 

- a unit that has an inbuilt -1 to hit and -1 to wound

- a spell that does -1 to wound

- a spell that halves move, run, and charge on a unit

- two spells (one endless) that reduce bravery 

- one endless spell that punishes movement and positioning

- a reliable way to get a 6" pile in on our best units, meaning we can protect them but also mess up the opponent's pile in

- our locus stops pile ins (which is really really strong on the right target)

- nearly all of our 'buffing' spells are actually faux debuffs, for example rr 1s or +1 to wound targets an enemy unit

- a -1 to cast and a force reroll of a cast available from our units

- an artifact that is given to the opponent to debuff them

- an artifact that gives -1 attacks to enemies

- our summoning is better the longer a unit is kept alive

With all of these abilities, I think it's quite clear the intended theme was to debuff and draw out a fight. Personally, I think they could have lent into the theme harder on some units, but debuffing is a tricky on to balance as it can become quickly unfun. 

From experience with Slaanesh 2018, I think we're meant to move to a playstyle more akin to then. A finesse army designed to drag out the fight - forcing the opponent to make unoptimal plays, or stopping them playing at all in some cases. Unlike 2019, we're not meant to run up and throat stomp the enemy to death, but unlike other battletomes, we're still not meant to buff ourselves. 

Whether you enjoy this or not is subjective, and I do think the battletome has other issues (with the most prominent being points), but I think the playstyle of the battletome is the flavour. Prolonging the pain and sending the enemy into a stupor is on theme, it's just a very unique and difficult playstyle. It's very understandable why channels like MWG perform poorly with the army because it plays so differently and isn't very intuitive compared to what they normally play.

It's best to think of this battletome as a buffed 2018 Slaanesh than a nerfed 2019 one. If 2019 set us up to be a glass canon, then 2021 sets us up to be a fragile torturing device. 

[ibel]

1 hour ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Am I missing something or was it just a case of poor word choice?

It is a poor of words. U make DP in both Battelshock Phase of each Player (so TWO times in One Turn).

But lets be honest against a good Player U make 3-4 in his BTPhase, so u had to make 7-8 in Your Phase. I try too make 9-11 in my Turn 1 and 2 because in Turn 3 and 4 there are not that many Units an the Field to make some DP, and U really want a Keeper or 30 Daemonetts in Turn 2 and another Keeper or Maybe 20 Daemonetts in turn 3. (normaly my Plan is too Summon a Keeper or 30 Dämonetts in Tunr 2 and than a keeper or 20-30 Dämonetts in Turn 3 and than 10 Dämonetts in Turn 4, and it works, but i lose still. No Chance against a T1-T2 Army)

1 hour ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

So this is a question of Focus

good Point. For me U must make this Choice and U MUST go 80-90% on fast or 80-90% not. So thats the 2 Options. And Glutos O if u Play mortals, Always take Glutos  

[Enoby]

For anyone curious, the first like 5-10 mins of this video discuss the battletome after a match. It's quite a nice look as the Slaanesh player was initially hesitant about the battletome. 

Note, they get the rules wrong for Sigvald when they said it in this video, but they played him correctly so it was likely a slip of the tongue

 

 

 

[Sorrow]

Remember, rules are temporary, models are forever!

We can brag that we have some of the most beautiful models GW ever made.

Though I must admit that I did expect a Black Library novel for our faction.

[PiotrW]

Hey guys, if you don't mind, I have a few Hedonites questions - because I got myself the new battletome out of curiosity, as well as some models (kind of going for a "Slaves to Darkness feat. Hedonites of Slaanesh" army at the moment).

1. I'm assembling the Blissbarb Archers - beautiful models, but so fiddly... 😵 Anyway: what base size should the homunculus have? The assembly booklet has him on a 28mm base, but there are 10 x 28mm + 1x 25mm bases in the box. And the box art also shows him on a 25mm, if I'm seeing correctly...

2. I have a leftover (and unassembled) Chariot / Hellflayer from the Shadow & Pain box. I'm wondering: what is better, a Chariot or a Helllflayer? Also, does anyone here have the assembly instructions for a Chariot? The booklet in S&P has only the instructions for a Hellflayer...

3. I'm wondering about the Hedonites' summoning. Specifically, how often do they get a chance to summon something? How easy is it to accumulate enough Depravity?

BTW. Am I understanding the rules correctly that you get DPs for *any* units on board getting wounded, including your own units?

And on a more general note: any interesting backstory ideas for Hedonites you guys came up with?

[AngryPanda]

39 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

And on a more general note: any interesting backstory ideas for Hedonites you guys came up with?

My army is going to be based with a sandy-beach theme, with the ocean effects made from resin, hobby water gel to simulate ripples in the water, and some traditional shells, starfish, and skulls scattered in. The lore is that these followers are worshippers or descendants of Slaanesh’s 6th circle, The Circle of Indolency; wherever they travel a warm and soothing beach always appears underneath their feet. This warmth strengthens those blessed with Slaanesh, but is hazardous to anyone else, as the beaches will put those unfortunate enough to spend too long in proximity into a coma. 

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

1. I'm assembling the Blissbarb Archers - beautiful models, but so fiddly... 😵 Anyway: what base size should the homunculus have? The assembly booklet has him on a 28mm base, but there are 10 x 28mm + 1x 25mm bases in the box. And the box art also shows him on a 25mm, if I'm seeing correctly...

Welcome aboard

Blissbarb's are very finicky and their bases are labled incorrectly in the instruction booklet (I reckon a last minute change). The correct base size for the archers is 32mm and the homonculous is 25mm

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

2. I have a leftover (and unassembled) Chariot / Hellflayer from the Shadow & Pain box. I'm wondering: what is better, a Chariot or a Helllflayer? Also, does anyone here have the assembly instructions for a Chariot? The booklet in S&P has only the instructions for a Hellflayer...

I personally prefer the chariot (can be some cheap battleline), or a vessel for a herald. Unfortunately I lost my instructions for the chariot If they pop up again I'll send them over 

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

I'm wondering about the Hedonites' summoning. Specifically, how often do they get a chance to summon something? How easy is it to accumulate enough Depravity?

We summon a lot, but it's not anywhere near as overwhelming as last time I reckon you could happily expect at least 30 points in a game without really trying for it, which translates to about 800 ish points for free over the course of a game. As you summon once per turn, I think summoning early (even if you don't quite have the points for what you want) is the best option. Summoning is a massive source of utility - Keepers get to choose a spell from the lore and can use their CA. As a bit of a trick, summoning one in just so it's in range for that can be a big game changer. 30 daemonettes put in some nice work too, as well as being objective grabbers. 3 fiends are a nice monster/hero hunter or clutch wall if needed.  

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

BTW. Am I understanding the rules correctly that you get DPs for *any* units on board getting wounded, including your own units?

Yes, you get DP for any unit This includes allies, which can be a big help. Guessing by your profile, but you play Skaven which can be an ally - you might have some interesting results working with them. Allies are not necessary, but are more useful to us compared to other armies thanks to the depravity point change. 

It can also be useful to hurt your own units, chipping off unimportant wounds from heroes with the fane.

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

And on a more general note: any interesting backstory ideas for Hedonites you guys came up with?

I developed quite a long story for my Wendigo Slaanesh army, but I don't want to fill up the thread

A link to the army is here:

 

And a small background is here:

Ghurenheim was once a proud city. A strong bastion of Order against the wilds of Ghur. Now the city stands as a testament to the corruption of Chaos.

What started as a drip of poison within the grand city turned into a torrent of bile that tore the city asunder in a flash flood of violence and psychosis. This carnage was masterminded by a pair of lovers, whose names are cursed forevermore. 

Togetherness, love, justice, and metamorphosis were what was preached by them. Cannibalism, obsession, zealotry, and mutation were what was practised. They lead their followers as mothers, and guided them to better themselves; they preached love to their children. They told them of what kindness they had in store for the citizens of Ghurenheim, and their followers believed them. They told them that their forms were imperfect, and they changed themselves through violent transmorphication. They told them that their thoughts would be best in their motherly embrace, and they surrendered their will. They told them their bodies only held back true love, and they made their last walk into the open mouth of Hell. 

The accursed lovers attacked with both martial might and a mastery of dark magic. One of the couple had a hunger for flesh that could not be sated, and the other wished to grow their fleshwood forest. Together, they fed into their madness, driving one another deeper, and in doing so corrupted their followers so much so that what attacked Ghurenheim could barely be described as human. 

The Leviathan was born through this conglomerate of solipsism and obsession. Only one living mortal saw the apotheosis that befell the two accursed lovers. Whatever they became, it was quickly torn from the mortal plain and thrown into whatever abyss birthed it. 

Ghurenheim was left wounded. The mad cultists and beastmen who worshipped the accursed lovers dispersed without their goddesses to guide them.

For a time, it seemed Ghurenheim could recover.

But the abyssal fiend could not let its prize go. It could not slumber in the depths forever, and so it plotted its return. Leaving a carefully laid trail of ‘gifts’ and promises, its corruption seeped into the minds of mortals.

[PiotrW]

8 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

My army is going to be based with a sandy-beach theme, with the ocean effects made from resin, hobby water gel to simulate ripples in the water, and some traditional shells, starfish, and skulls scattered in. The lore is that these followers are worshippers or descendants of Slaanesh’s 6th circle, The Circle of Indolency; wherever they travel a warm and soothing beach always appears underneath their feet. This warmth strengthens those blessed with Slaanesh, but is hazardous to anyone else, as the beaches will put those unfortunate enough to spend too long in proximity into a coma. 

Oh, nice! Interesting idea...

8 hours ago, Enoby said:

Blissbarb's are very finicky and their bases are labled incorrectly in the instruction booklet (I reckon a last minute change). The correct base size for the archers is 32mm and the homonculous is 25mm

Exactly! This is weird... Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

8 hours ago, Enoby said:

I personally prefer the chariot (can be some cheap battleline), or a vessel for a herald. Unfortunately I lost my instructions for the chariot If they pop up again I'll send them over 

I'd be grateful - I'd prefer to have choice as to what to assemble.

8 hours ago, Enoby said:

We summon a lot, but it's not anywhere near as overwhelming as last time I reckon you could happily expect at least 30 points in a game without really trying for it, which translates to about 800 ish points for free over the course of a game.

Oh! And here I thought that hoping to get 12 DPs to summon a Keeper would be hoping for too much...

8 hours ago, Enoby said:

Yes, you get DP for any unit This includes allies, which can be a big help. Guessing by your profile, but you play Skaven which can be an ally - you might have some interesting results working with them.

At this point, I'm starting to think that I play *everything* aside from Destruction... 😵  Too much cool stuff to collect...

Anyway, Skaven can't be allied with Hedonites, at least in Matched Play. Not sure whether the Allies lists are applicable in Open / Narrative games...

8 hours ago, Enoby said:

I developed quite a long story for my Wendigo Slaanesh army, but I don't want to fill up the thread

I'll definitely take a look!

Oh, and another question: the Slaves to Darkness units with Mark of Chaos. If I give , say, some Chaos Warriors the Slaanesh keyword, will they count as regular Hedonites units? Is it even useful to include such units in a Hedonite army? Is there any distinction in fluff between Slaanesh-worshipping Slaves and "true" Hedonite units?

And another fluff question: can Chaos daemons enter the Realms on their own or do they need to be summoned? I know they can be fielded normally in the game, but speaking storywise, are there daemons that freely roam the Realms or do they need cults etc. to  open the way for them?

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

At this point, I'm starting to think that I play *everything* aside from Destruction... 😵  Too much cool stuff to collect...

Anyway, Skaven can't be allied with Hedonites, at least in Matched Play. Not sure whether the Allies lists are applicable in Open / Narrative games...

Oops, you're right! I never really tried but I always thought you could - maybe it was the mention of Plague Monks being taken in lists, which have the Nurgle keyword too

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

Oh, and another question: the Slaves to Darkness units with Mark of Chaos. If I give , say, some Chaos Warriors the Slaanesh keyword, will they count as regular Hedonites units? Is it even useful to include such units in a Hedonite army? Is there any distinction in fluff between Slaanesh-worshipping Slaves and "true" Hedonite units?

So, if you gives a Slaves to Darkness model the Slaanesh mark (and if you take the Depraved Drove battalion and give Beasts of Chaos the Slaanesh mark), they become part of the Slaanesh army and so get access to artifacts, command traits, and battleline status - and don't count towards allies. 

However, there is a big 'but', and that is while they do have the Slaanesh keyword, they don't gain Euphoric Killers as they don't have the Hedonites keyword. This means non-Hedonite Slaanesh units tend to lack damage. However, they're still very useful for cheap battleline, screening, bodies for objectives, and cheap depravity. 

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

And another fluff question: can Chaos daemons enter the Realms on their own or do they need to be summoned? I know they can be fielded normally in the game, but speaking storywise, are there daemons that freely roam the Realms or do they need cults etc. to  open the way for them?

I *think* (but I don't know if it's ever been officially confirmed, this is just based on stories and lore snippets) that daemons usually need to be summoned, but there are a few exceptions:

- When enough of something is happening that the veil breaks (what our depravity points are meant to show)

- Sometimes daemons interact with people regardless of being summoned (e.g. Glutos's daemon prince); this isn't just limited to talking and the daemon can exercise some of its power 

Another big point is that, unlike 40k and Fantasy, daemons stick around a lot longer without help. They're not quite indefinite, and do get weaker over time (unless they're sacrificed to or find another way to keep themselves going), but you could have an army of daemons exist in reality for years. 

[Jaskier]

Gonna be combining One-Eyed Grunnock with a Keeper, Sigvald and 2x5 Slickblade Seekers in Seeker Cavalcade under Lurid Haze rules for my next tournament. I've played two different kinds of defensive lists and not enjoyed my time, so I figure going for all out aggression is going to be more up my alley play-style wise. I don't mind being made to go first as an ambushing Sigvald, Slickblades with 6" pile-ins and a Keeper running up (or ambushing if I roll high enough to pair it with Sigvald) to support them with Excess of Violence should give me tonnes of early game pressure - and the Warstomper will be hanging around just to soak up as much damage as possible. The other thing I've noticed about Lurid Haze is that ambushing your generals makes it incredibly easy to get the bonus Depravity points for Invaders super early on. I just wish Hellstriders were back to 110 or 100 points, as they'd improve so many of my lists if I had the points to run them over Chaos Warriors (including cutting my drops down by three in Seeker Cavalcade!)

Edited March 23, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

24 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Gonna be combining One-Eyed Grunnock with a Keeper, Sigvald and 2x5 Slickblade Seekers in Seeker Cavalcade under Lurid Haze rules for my next tournament. I've played two different kinds of defensive lists and not enjoyed my time, so I figure going for all out aggression is going to be more up my alley play-style wise. I don't mind being made to go first as an ambushing Sigvald, Slickblades with 6" pile-ins and a Keeper running up (or ambushing if I roll high enough to pair it with Sigvald) to support them with Excess of Violence should give me tonnes of early game pressure - and the Warstomper will be hanging around just to soak up as much damage as possible. The other thing I've noticed about Lurid Haze is that ambushing your generals makes it incredibly easy to get the bonus Depravity points for Invaders super early on. I just wish Hellstriders were back to 110 or 100 points, as they'd improve so many of my lists if I had the points to run them over Chaos Warriors (including cutting my drops down by three in Seeker Cavalcade!)

This sounds like a really interesting list. What's your plan for bodies on objectives, or is it just to kill everything else on them while chaos warriors hold? 

Do you think the warstomper is worth it over two more units of Slickblades? 

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

This sounds like a really interesting list. What's your plan for bodies on objectives, or is it just to kill everything else on them while chaos warriors hold? 

Do you think the warstomper is worth it over two more units of Slickblades? 

You've pretty much got it down. I could make a much better list (especially with Lurid Haze) if I ran some Marauders instead, but I've just got no interest in following that particular flavour of the month, so until Hellstriders/Myrmidesh/Blissbarbs/etc get some cuts then I'll probably just be sticking with Warriors. A Keeper behind Sigvald and 2x5 Slickblades with a wild Grunnock on the side is a lot of fast hitting power, but we'll see how that goes in practice of course. 

Grunnock is...interesting. In theory a 35 4+ save monster isn't that hard to put down, but it's just the fact that one model can absorb so much punishment that can really throw opponents off. I would wager 10 more Slickblades and an 80 point headroom would definitely be better, especially in Seeker Cavalcade, but for the time being I'm committed to running Grunnock after building and painting him this past week. If I was to run that many Slickblades, I'd have to run Syll'Esske (so 15 + Syll'Esske) to solve the Bravery problem, or fit Glutos in somehow (though unless you ambush him, he isn't keeping up with those Slickblades.) I'll try the Grunnock variation at least up to my next GT, but the GT after will probably be Glutos or Syll'Esske and more Slickblades instead of him just to be as competitive as possible. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

You've pretty much got it down. I could make a much better list (especially with Lurid Haze) if I ran some Marauders instead, but I've just got no interest in following that particular flavour of the month, so until Hellstriders/Myrmidesh/Blissbarbs/etc get some cuts then I'll probably just be sticking with Warriors. A Keeper behind Sigvald and 2x5 Slickblades with a wild Grunnock on the side is a lot of fast hitting power, but we'll see how that goes in practice of course. 

Grunnock is...interesting. In theory a 35 4+ save monster isn't that hard to put down, but it's just the fact that one model can absorb so much punishment that can really throw opponents off. I would wager 10 more Slickblades and an 80 point headroom would definitely be better, especially in Seeker Cavalcade, but for the time being I'm committed to running Grunnock after building and painting him this past week. If I was to run that many Slickblades, I'd have to run Syll'Esske (so 15 + Syll'Esske) to solve the Bravery problem, or fit Glutos in somehow (though unless you ambush him, he isn't keeping up with those Slickblades.) I'll try the Grunnock variation at least up to my next GT, but the GT after will probably be Glutos or Syll'Esske and more Slickblades instead of him just to be as competitive as possible. 

It'll be interesting regardless I think, especially for tripping players up into poor targeting. 

Also, our FAQ is up - and it doesn't hurt us

The Syll'Esske host was changed rather than removed, and now reads:

‘Add 1 to the number of depravity points you receive in 
the battleshock phase if a friendly Syll’Esske is on the 
battlefield and is within 6" of at least 1 other friendly 
Syll’Esskan Host Daemon unit and at least 1 friendly 
Syll’Esskan Host Mortal unit.’

And the others mean we can use Wrath of the Everchosen and Glutos's command ability is good

[TimeToWaste85]

Wording looks like if 5 battleshock tests lead to 5 points...Syll’Eske Host brings it up to 6. With the limitations of no command ability, no magic item, it’s not worth it.  
Now, if it was on each battleshock test, making it go from 5 to 10 (in the theoretical example I gave)...now we’d be cooking. 
Too limiting, as it is currently. 

[Enoby]

15 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Wording looks like if 5 battleshock tests lead to 5 points...Syll’Eske Host brings it up to 6. With the limitations of no command ability, no magic item, it’s not worth it.  
Now, if it was on each battleshock test, making it go from 5 to 10 (in the theoretical example I gave)...now we’d be cooking. 
Too limiting, as it is currently. 

It is pretty poor at the moment, though maybe the battalions could be something, but I'm surprised they let us keep it at all. It could definitely be better but I was fully expecting "Can I use the Syll'Esske host in matched play?"

"No."

[azdimy]

26 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Wording looks like if 5 battleshock tests lead to 5 points...Syll’Eske Host brings it up to 6. With the limitations of no command ability, no magic item, it’s not worth it.  
Now, if it was on each battleshock test, making it go from 5 to 10 (in the theoretical example I gave)...now we’d be cooking. 
Too limiting, as it is currently. 

Not sure how you read it that way. All it says is when you receive depravity points you get 1 more if sylleske is alive and within 6in of at least 1 other deamon unit and 1 mortal unit. So the max you get is 1 dp in your turns for losing artifacts,  command traits and other factions abilities which generate more dps. This is the death of the sylleskhan host with this rewritten allegiance ability

Edited March 23, 2021 by azdimy

[Jaskier]

I don't mind what they've done with Syll'Esskan Host, doubling Depravity with the new system would have been dumb. The extra Depravity each turn is basically the equivalent of each other Hosts' unique way of getting extra Depravity, just easier. You lose artifacts and command traits but get some decent exclusive battalions and a bonus D3 or D6 command points at the start of the game.

I'm just happy my Daemonsteel Contingent is legal again, because Soul Grinders in that battalion are going to be freaking incredible with new Depravity And now I get to mix some new toys in and not have to run a bunch of unnecessary heroes! 

[Yziel]

Soulgrinders and Demonsteel is super interesting. The look really cool (the rules, the model is super ugly xD) and they seem effective.

I need to get into TTS so I can test stuff like this, it would be a massive conversion project to make multiples

[Enoby]

6 minutes ago, Yziel said:

Soulgrinders and Demonsteel is super interesting. The look really cool (the rules, the model is super ugly xD) and they seem effective.

I need to get into TTS so I can test stuff like this, it would be a massive conversion project to make multiples

I know, 16 wounds, 3+ save, hitting on 3s... it seems really good for 210 points with our new Depravity rules. Don't like the model much at all, but like you I'd like to experiment with its rules. 

[ibel]

So the Faq is out and... i am done with Hedonits. Bye Bye and go to the gravejard. Mode Luck next time. Bye guess

(Sry but they are not abel to play. Not with this points. Sry)

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, ibel said:

So the Faq is out and... i am done with Hedonits. Bye Bye and go to the gravejard. Mode Luck next time. Bye guess

(Sry but they are not abel to play. Not with this points. Sry)

Just so you know, I don't think ever in the history of AoS has a month after FAQ been used to balance things. These FAQs are to clear up misunderstandings and mistakes, e.g. Glutos's CA clarification. They are not to balance things, no matter if it was the most broken or useless thing in the game. 

If we are going to get changes for balance, they would have always been in the GHB so it's not hopeless, it was just never going to happen now