Jump to content

AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion


HERO

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Carnith said:

It was Syar elves. So the buffs are kinda there on demand and nothing really there for the twinsouls to fight. 

That's fair, but personally I think it was a wasted charge - they could only lose out, and they would be better served by just standing in the way to stop it going elsewhere. I don't think it's worth ranting on twin souls for a misplay. I think this is one of the trickiest things with AoS (and this army in particular) is that sometimes it's better not to act and instead just to recalculate. If you'll get nothing going into combat, don't go - same as if you charge into two super deadly units with no strike first, it's usually a bad trade as you'll likely lose one unit and gain nothing from it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Carnith said:

He sent 10 twinsouls into cow mountain. Elf player double buffed it, and used a cp for reroll 1's and then did no damage. Mountain killed every twinsoul. Later sigvald and a summoned keeper charged the same mountain, and brought it down to 2 wounds, because of stone mage near by, mountain fights at top bracket and kills the keeper and almost kills sigvald.

The Mountain Cow is really really slow right? Better just to kite it than bother engaging it in combat. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, azdimy said:

So in Syar the stupid cow can get to a 1+ save right? Pretty sure Vince made that charge knowing very well what would happen

This is definitely one of those situations where 3 seeker chariots would be the answer. Certainly not twinsouls.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CeleFAZE said:

This is definitely one of those situations where 3 seeker chariots would be the answer. Certainly not twinsouls.

I haven't watched Vince's rant, so this only applies if the rant was along the lines of "twinsouls suck/are overpointed because they got wiped out by a buffed cow", but if that was the rant then it's not a good one. It's like saying "Morrsarr guard are bad because I used them to screen against 6 fiends and they did no damage and all died" - if a unit has a role and is not good in another area, using them in the area they're not good in will make them look bad. 

Like I said, that's only if that was the extent of the rant, but it reminds me of the MWG and Dark Artisan battle reports were they both concluded Slaanesh sucked after forgetting half the rules and playing very poorly. It's a shame to see people say the army's bad because they made poor plays. The army does have issues, but it's easy to conflate poor performance with poor rules. Moreover, it can put off new players who may otherwise enjoy the army but have been told by others that they're bad, even though the 'others' have this negative opinion because they played poorly. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

I haven't watched Vince's rant, so this only applies if the rant was along the lines of "twinsouls suck/are overpointed because they got wiped out by a buffed cow", but if that was the rant then it's not a good one. It's like saying "Morrsarr guard are bad because I used them to screen against 6 fiends and they did no damage and all died" - if a unit has a role and is not good in another area, using them in the area they're not good in will make them look bad. 

Like I said, that's only if that was the extent of the rant, but it reminds me of the MWG and Dark Artisan battle reports were they both concluded Slaanesh sucked after forgetting half the rules and playing very poorly. It's a shame to see people say the army's bad because they made poor plays. The army does have issues, but it's easy to conflate poor performance with poor rules. Moreover, it can put off new players who may otherwise enjoy the army but have been told by others that they're bad, even though the 'others' have this negative opinion because they played poorly. 

Yeah, I was particularly frustrated with MWG for this reason. I really enjoy their content but it does seem that the sheer volume of armies and games they play causes them to lose track of the finer points of some armies (they can also appear quite nonchalant and handwave rules away "as not making an impact anyway").  I think Tabletop Titan's game has thus far been the most accurate. Adrian (the HoS player) used summoning to his advantage and played to the army's strength.

I've deliberately sought out players who talk about what and how to solve it as opposed to bemoan X or Y. 2+tough for getting pumped on lore and I think Thete and Meta Slayers take on HoS was good too. Then mirror this towards the criticisms and formulate my own opinion on it. I am INCREDIBLY happy that HoS isn't some crazy S+ tier meta army because AoS needs to keep those down to a few not increase their number.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We will see.

If new Lumineth and Soulblight prove to be far more powerful than us,  then this entire idea of our faction being written for AOS 3 falls into trash.

I truly hope that is not the case, but I suspect new  Lumineth and Soulblight will be far better than we are at the moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

I haven't watched Vince's rant, so this only applies if the rant was along the lines of "twinsouls suck/are overpointed because they got wiped out by a buffed cow", but if that was the rant then it's not a good one. It's like saying "Morrsarr guard are bad because I used them to screen against 6 fiends and they did no damage and all died" - if a unit has a role and is not good in another area, using them in the area they're not good in will make them look bad. 

Like I said, that's only if that was the extent of the rant, but it reminds me of the MWG and Dark Artisan battle reports were they both concluded Slaanesh sucked after forgetting half the rules and playing very poorly. It's a shame to see people say the army's bad because they made poor plays. The army does have issues, but it's easy to conflate poor performance with poor rules. Moreover, it can put off new players who may otherwise enjoy the army but have been told by others that they're bad, even though the 'others' have this negative opinion because they played poorly. 

Sorry, it was a busy week and I realized I had not probably given as full of context at the time of writing. The situation was that the mountain goat was in the way. If he avoids it, it comes and kill them anyways, so he must attempt to kill it to get to the objective. 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sorrow said:

We will see.

If new Lumineth and Soulblight prove to be far more powerful than us,  then this entire idea of our faction being written for AOS 3 falls into trash.

I truly hope that is not the case, but I suspect new  Lumineth and Soulblight will be far better than we are at the moment.

If objectives gets a bigger focus and non-behemoth characters get harder to target with shooting/magic HoS could come out as a winner. We're fast enough to pick fights and get at important leaders, leaders like the shardspeaker would be easier to place without getting shot up, and summoning is going to be (and already is) great for objective grabbing/holds. If "look out, sir" ends up being like a 2+ shrug over to the next unit it wouldn't just be good for protection but to feed depravity to different units. Combining something like this with the fane means we'd get DPs rolling quick. This could be why we're paying a summoning tax on our units. I also like how the new Locus ability has panned out.

I'm not disagreeing on the general perception that HoS are over-costed as a result of overcompensating from the last book. Either there needs to be a slight points reduction or there's something we don't know about in the upcoming 3rd edition. Maybe both.

Edited by pnkdth
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi!

Has anyone ever tried creating lists based on PD generation?
I can't really imagine what it might look like.

Already I think it will be in Godseeker.
One or two KOS +  two or three Blissbarb seekers units ...

I find it hard to make a slaanesh list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

Hi!

Has anyone ever tried creating lists based on PD generation?
I can't really imagine what it might look like.

I've created most of my lists to emphasize DP gen but if you wanna go nuts try out depraved drove with a billion small units and ram an endless through them turn 1. 

Most of my early lists started with 2 KoS and 3 archers in Godseeker. I've moved more towards hellstriders and seekers in Cavalcade after some testing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, umpac said:

I've created most of my lists to emphasize DP gen but if you wanna go nuts try out depraved drove with a billion small units and ram an endless through them turn 1. 

Most of my early lists started with 2 KoS and 3 archers in Godseeker. I've moved more towards hellstriders and seekers in Cavalcade after some testing.

And after your tests what did you deduce?
Do PD generate quickly?
Which list turns best?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had another tournament today, ran Lurid Haze Invaders with Glutos, the mercenary Mega-Gargant, a Shardspeaker, 6 Fiends, 30 Chaos Warriors (1x20 and 2x5) and Geminids. Won my first game against Ironjawz by a hair, got tabled in my second against a snake/Morathi DoK list, and my third was a loss on Knife to the Heart against Gloomspite Gitz. There were three seperate occasions today where I started my turn on 11 Depravity points which was super frustrating! The Mega-Gargant did a lot of work, generally just soaking up a tonne of damage and usually killing his worth in points, which was amusing because I mostly took him for a potential extra -1 to-hit debuff that I ended up not getting too much mileage out of (that and because it's a sick model!) If I were to make the list better I'd absolutely drop the big Chaos Warriors unit down to 15 or even 10, change the Shardspeaker to a Sorcerer Lord and purchase a CP; not having any CP until turn two (because of the Warstomper) wasn't so bad, but I found myself one CP short in more than a few crucial situations. The army felt very slow which is quite bizarre for Slaanesh, so I might upgrade the 5-strong units to Hellstriders or something.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Iron Fist said:

And after your tests what did you deduce?
Do PD generate quickly?
Which list turns best?

So far I've had the most success with cavalcade lists. Some hot takes from 10-15 or so games I've played:

- You reliably get 12 DPs by turn 3 and usually have some stockpiled to get good summons turn 4 and 5 as well. Sometimes you get 12 by turn 2 but that is only if your opponent lets you. Its still pretty match up dependent but less so then with our last book.

- Godseeker is my preferred sub. Tons of front loaded DP generation and summons are FAR more potent with +1 charge. I tend to lean into summon-reliant lists though so I have a lot of play style bias.

- Lurid Haze is great, maybe even stronger than Godseeker but it depends on play style and list. You definitely need something that can properly utilize the redeploy, like Sigwald, for it to be better than other options. If you don't have a clear plan in mind with the ambush it's pretty lack luster. Also the best choice if you really need CPs and face a lot of alpha shooting (but low drop lists like DoT or KO can easily force you to go first anyway). Much harder to get a lot of DP from and it isn't front loaded like in Godseekers.

- Seekers cavalcade is the best battalion. 6" pile ins helps a ton with survivability if you want to draw out combats. Slaanesh is stronger in the late game and Cavalcade helps us get there. Also solid vs stuff like Fangs of Sotek to get around their Parting Shot. Its also much more reliable than charging since you are basically getting 1D6+6 "charge" instead of 2D6. Kind of an anti-combo with the new Hellstrider rules but oh well.

- I've found single Keeper lists to be the best. 2 Kippers eats too much CP and are too expensive but armies with 0 lacks damage and reliable Locus. I like running 1 keeper with either Masque or some other hero for very reliable Locus (4+ 3+ is about the same as 2+) to shut down big units of scary stuff and when it dies you usually have enough DP to get it back in your next move phase.

- Other units that stand out are the new seeker units. They seem reasonably priced and go into Cavalcade. Just very solid all around. Good speed, decent damage unsupported and great damage with KoS CA, has tons of utility and sneaky tricks in Cavalcade, good amount of wounds, access to MWs. The Blissbarb version have long threat range and provide some MW output (though they only put 1.33 MWs per units so nothing mind blowing...). Better at 2.9" pile in shenanigans since they can still shoot at the unit they mess with.

- Glutos has been ok in my games. I don't see myself including him in lists moving forward but that might change. He's a tank in an army without tanks so he definitely has a role but I find he often takes wounds early, loses his priest and then dies to mortal wounds. He can take a beating but he also gets bracketed very harshly. His 5 course meal abilities are cool but ranges are short and limited to certain key words. The best stuff is of course in the last turns when the game is already decided for the most part. In games he lived he struggles to impact the game enough to justify the 400pt price tag. I liked him as a mobile summoning base but the fane is enough to have a big summoning foot  print anyway. 

Edited by umpac
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, umpac said:

Kippers eats too much CP and are too expensive but armies with 0 lacks damage and reliable Locus. I like running 1 keeper with either Masque or some other hero for very reliable Locus (4+ 3+ is about the same as 2+) to shut down big units of scary stuff and when it dies you usually have enough DP to get it back in your next move phase.

You can only attempt to locus a unit once so the locus does not get more reliable with two heroes, just like in our previous book

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ve been keeping up with the tournament data that’s been being published via Goonhammer and BoLS since the battletome dropped, and the stats aren’t looking too hot. Take a look at this: 

 

Tournament Data Results

 

Hedonites have not breached the top 10 of most winning armies since the release, nor within the top 10 of most played armies. This is not good, considering that every new release within AoS has seen at least a decent spike in win and play rates within tournaments (even if it’s for a brief period of time). This is a single source, but it’s been pretty consistent for the past couple of months with other tournament reporting sources. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I’ve been keeping up with the tournament data that’s been being published via Goonhammer and BoLS since the battletome dropped, and the stats aren’t looking too hot. Take a look at this: 

 

Tournament Data Results

 

Hedonites have not breached the top 10 of most winning armies since the release, nor within the top 10 of most played armies. This is not good, considering that every new release within AoS has seen at least a decent spike in win and play rates within tournaments (even if it’s for a brief period of time). This is a single source, but it’s been pretty consistent for the past couple of months with other tournament reporting sources. 

Which tournament was allowing the new battletome pre-FAQ?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I’ve been keeping up with the tournament data that’s been being published via Goonhammer and BoLS since the battletome dropped, and the stats aren’t looking too hot. Take a look at this:

I would not put to much thought into this, many tournament organizers have not allowed our new tome until the faq drops

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, azdimy said:

You can only attempt to locus a unit once so the locus does not get more reliable with two heroes, just like in our previous book

Nice catch, don't know how I missed it since the rules very clearly states you can only target 1 unit even if the first attempt fails. Edited my post for clarification.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Which tournament was allowing the new battletome pre-FAQ?

I’ve been looking through the data, it really depends cause they’re private events; some don’t allow playing the army until the FAQ drops, while other smaller tournaments have allowed its use. I’m using the data from best cost parking and FLG; from my local meta HoS have also been having a hard time. 
 

Slaanesh did decent here coming in at 4th

 

Slaanesh at 6th (fitting)

 

Slaanesh at 13th


There’s a handful of others towards the end of February and very beginning of March, but the results are similar. Once we go into March we don’t really see many playing HoS, and it could be indicative of not allowing pre-FAQ armies to play, but it could also be evidence that interest in the army is scarce. 

Edited by AngryPanda
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:

I’ve been looking through the data, it really depends cause they’re private events; some don’t allow playing the army until the FAQ drops, while other smaller tournaments have allowed its use. I’m using the data from best cost parking and FLG; from my local meta HoS have also been having a hard time. 
 

Slaanesh did decent here coming in at 4th

 

Slaanesh at 6th (fitting)

 

Slaanesh at 13th


There’s a handful of others towards the end of February and very beginning of March, but the results are similar. Once we go into March we don’t really see many playing HoS, and it could be indicative of not allowing pre-FAQ armies to play, but it could also be evidence that interest in the army is scarce. 

Ok, so, I am not here to push back against the impression/feeling that HoS is in a difficult spot after the new BT.

However, I am pretty confident that no relevant conclusions can be drawn from tiny events (at a time when events are already very rare) and I think you are correct when you say that people who *want* to play new HoS are waiting for the FAQ and don't see the point in taking an old book to a tournament.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I finally got to try our new book. 

2v2 2230 a side (1150 a person)

My list was 

Exalted Bladebringer

-Cameo

-d3 mw on the charge

Heal spell

Shardspeaker 

-Dark Delusions

30 daemonettes

11 archers

5 slick blades

Geminids

 

My partner was a friend getting back into the game with his Skryre and had an arch warlock, engineer, 10 acolytes and 2x20 clanrats and sine weapon teams.

Our opponents were Dok (cobra kai snake list, snake on chariot, 10 melee, 2x5 ranged, avatar, hag queen, melee snake hero) and boc (shaman, 30 gor, 10 bestigor, tzan shaman and 6 skyfyres)

We set up with me against the DoK player and the Skaven vs BoC. 

Farming depravity went super well. I had 24 summoning points by turn 3. But, even massively duffing the dok player with geminids, IU was pretty much tabled. We got double turned 2 -> 3. I almost killed the dok heroes, I killed the snakes using +1 to wound on the melee snakes, and with the chariot and the daemonettes and stopping the snakes from piling in, I was able to survive the turn 2 combat, but on their turn 2, I was unable to really survive and just get grinded down by the snake on cauldron. Most of my CP was just pushed into keeping units from running. 

By the time our turn 3 came around, I summoned a keeper... who didn't do much, but we were ending our game there at this point. 

Ultimately... I'm still leaning on points decreases. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

Ok, so, I am not here to push back against the impression/feeling that HoS is in a difficult spot after the new BT.

However, I am pretty confident that no relevant conclusions can be drawn from tiny events (at a time when events are already very rare) and I think you are correct when you say that people who *want* to play new HoS are waiting for the FAQ and don't see the point in taking an old book to a tournament.

I fully agree.

Tournament data for new armies is really hard to judge when it comes down to army power and player interest. For example, our LE battletome sold out in a few hours worldwide and Sigvald has been in and out of stock, and I've also seen a good chunk of our new models on social media; it's no concrete judgement, but I'd say there's a good amount of interest in our army overall.

However, tournament interest is harder to discern; obviously there are a lot of events who won't allow a pre FAQ battleltome in full stop, and many events that won't allow unpainted armies in (and new models take a while to paint compared to a new battletome for old models), and many tournament players listen to the online consensus which is currently negative. As such, it's really hard to tell initially if the army has a lot of painting interest but little gameplay interest, a lot of gameplay interest and very few tournaments allowing us pre FAQ or many people not being able to bring their new unpainted models. Unfortunately a lot of people look no further than someone else's opinion, and declare the army is terrible without even reading the book or playing a game. That's not to say there aren't issues, but I think the vocal 'faces' of AoS being negative towards the book has probably turned off a lot of people from trying the book in a tournament at all.        

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Enoby said:

Unfortunately a lot of people look no further than someone else's opinion, and declare the army is terrible without even reading the book or playing a game. That's not to say there aren't issues, but I think the vocal 'faces' of AoS being negative towards the book has probably turned off a lot of people from trying the book in a tournament at all.        

This is spot on and proven by the general reception to Sons of Behemat. The big personalities famously decried it as the 'worst battletome/faction ever' yet actual tournament results shows it is consistently a 4-2/4-1/3-2 army, i.e. slotting comfortably into where most battletomes sit. They're just an army that requires the player to play to their particular strengths and be acutely aware of their limitations, and I see Slaanesh as no different. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...