AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Drazhoath]

18 minutes ago, Beliman said:

From my understanding, the attack description has some issues with Gluttos CA:

• Making attacks doens't "kill" anything (because allocating wounds is not part of "making attacks").
• After finishing all attacks, then, you allocate wounds, that's what will kill the enemy unit. 

Imho:

1. Declare attacks.
2. Make attacks (hit, wound, save and determine damage). They are resolved one at time but it's not important because [point 3].
3. When all attacks are finished, enemy allocate wounds on their models until they are "slain", when that happens, it triggers Gluttos  CA .
4. You don't know the attack profile that killed the enemy unit, but you have a pool of wounds that must can't be allocated, and that is what Gluttos CA talks about. 

 

Thats what I meant

[Enoby]

If anyone needs the official rule, here it is

Many people roll attacks incorrectly (though it rarely matters), the correct way to roll on a model with 2+ weapons is:

Weapon 1 > roll hit rolls > roll wound rolls > roll save rolls > see how many fail and keep it in mind

Weapon 2 > roll hit rolls > roll wound rolls > roll save rolls > see how many fail and keep it in mind 

(Repeat for any other attacks)

Add up the failed saves and apply damage all as one. 

This is basically just to stop someone taking away from the front so the attacker can't use the rest of their attacks. 

It does leave Glutos in an odd position where his CA refers to "the attack" but with the rules as they are, we would never know what attack killed the model. 

For example, if the model with the CA on it had 5 attacks at 1 damage and 1 attack at 5 damage, and they did 10 damage to a 6 wound model. We would never know if it was one of the 1 damage attacks that finished it off or the 5 damage attack so we wouldn't know what to heal. 

[LeonBox]

9 minutes ago, Enoby said:

If anyone needs the official rule, here it is

Many people roll attacks incorrectly (though it rarely matters), the correct way to roll on a model with 2+ weapons is:

Weapon 1 > roll hit rolls > roll wound rolls > roll save rolls > see how many fail and keep it in mind

Weapon 2 > roll hit rolls > roll wound rolls > roll save rolls > see how many fail and keep it in mind 

(Repeat for any other attacks)

Add up the failed saves and apply damage all as one. 

This is basically just to stop someone taking away from the front so the attacker can't use the rest of their attacks. 

It does leave Glutos in an odd position where his CA refers to "the attack" but with the rules as they are, we would never know what attack killed the model. 

For example, if the model with the CA on it had 5 attacks at 1 damage and 1 attack at 5 damage, and they did 10 damage to a 6 wound model. We would never know if it was one of the 1 damage attacks that finished it off or the 5 damage attack so we wouldn't know what to heal. 

I'm 100% happy to be wrong on this, as had my reading been correct, it would have made a strong ability very weak. 

[Yoid]

Does anyone know what happen when a Lord of Pain is asigned a number of wounds capable of killing him? Do you got to roll them 1 by 1 because he can only bounce wounds as long as he is alive?

[Enoby]

28 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Does anyone know what happen when a Lord of Pain is asigned a number of wounds capable of killing him? Do you got to roll them 1 by 1 because he can only bounce wounds as long as he is alive?

That's a good question, and I'm sure it's been answered by an FAQ before (maybe for the Nurgle daemon prince). I can't remember which way it goes, but I *think* you roll it so you look at your wounds after all steps of the attacks and then roll one by one until he's dead or you've ran out of wounds to allocate. Otherwise you could use him as a bit of a bomb on one wound - run him into their killiest unit and deal 33% of the damage back to them. 

Though I'm not certain on this so please correct me if there's an official rule that says otherwise.

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

I'm 100% happy to be wrong on this, as had my reading been correct, it would have made a strong ability very weak. 

Hopefully the RAW ruling remains (that you heal everything), but I have a sneaking suspicion the FAQ will end up as it's nerfed version.

I hope not, I'm just getting 2018 depravity points ruling flashbacks

That said, if it remains, it's probably the best healing CA in the game. Even just on Glutos himself, he does enough damage so he can finish a small unit off and heal 5 or 6 wounds afterwards - and it takes a lot of effort to deal 5 or 6 wound to him.

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

That's a good question, and I'm sure it's been answered by an FAQ before (maybe for the Nurgle daemon prince). I can't remember which way it goes, but I *think* you roll it so you look at your wounds after all steps of the attacks and then roll one by one until he's dead or you've ran out of wounds to allocate. Otherwise you could use him as a bit of a bomb on one wound - run him into their killiest unit and deal 33% of the damage back to them. 

I believe that's how it is (magmadroth and great unlcean one has something like that):

Once the number of wounds allocated to a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place a slain model to one side – it is removed from play.

You can't allocate more wounds that his health/wounds.

[Jaskier]

13 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I believe that's how it is (magmadroth and great unlcean one has something like that):

Once the number of wounds allocated to a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place a slain model to one side – it is removed from play.

You can't allocate more wounds that his health/wounds.

The way I played it in my tournament yesterday is you just roll all the dice (say he had 10 wounds allocated to him, roll all 10 at once) to see if you ignore/reflect any wounds, and the rule can reflect up to how many wounds he had at the start of the attack sequence, so if he had all 5 Wounds he could reflect a total of 5 back, and if he 3 he could reflect 3 back and so on. Managed to kill an entire Varanguard just by reflecting 5 mortal wounds back at them 😄

Edited March 8, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Managed to kill an entire Varanguard just by reflecting 5 mortal wounds back at them 😄

That sadly reminds me of the fact that Varanguard have worse shields than Chaos Warriors. 

[Beliman]

7 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

The way I played it in my tournament yesterday is you just roll all the dice (say he had 10 wounds allocated to him, roll all 10 at once) to see if you ignore/reflect any wounds, and the rule can reflect up to how many wounds he had at the start of the attack sequence, so if he had all 5 Wounds he could reflect a total of 5 back, and if he 3 he could reflect 3 back and so on. Managed to kill an entire Varanguard just by reflecting 5 mortal wounds back at them 😄

For the sake of rolling fast, we play like that too.

Technically (and tediously), we need to allocate wounds one by one until the enemy is slain (and removed from play) and the wound's pool is discarded.

 

[Yoid]

15 minutes ago, Beliman said:

For the sake of rolling fast, we play like that too.

Technically (and tediously), we need to allocate wounds one by one until the enemy is slain (and removed from play) and the wound's pool is discarded.

 

Well, if that is the case, you can roll whathever number of wounds he have remaining, like first roll 5, lets say he ignores 2, then roll 2, if he ignores 1, then roll 1 again until all wounds are done or he die. Is not as slow as doing the wounds 1 by 1 all the time.

[zombiepiratexxx]

Question, if you summon a Keeper(or any Daemon Wizard I suppose) to the battle do you then get to pick a spell from the Lore in the book when you summon them? Or do you just stick with what is on the Warscroll as it wasn't included in your army list at the beginning? 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Question, if you summon a Keeper(or any Daemon Wizard I suppose) to the battle do you then get to pick a spell from the Lore in the book when you summon them? Or do you just stick with what is on the Warscroll as it wasn't included in your army list at the beginning? 

You get to pick a spell from the lore, yes

[Enoby]

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

[Gistradagis]

8 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

Well, we do pretty much know that the DoK book was meant to come earlier, closer to BR: Morathi. So the theory does have some credibility; we did discuss it briefly after our book came out and we all were shocked about our points values.

[Yoid]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

If that is the case, they should have waited for a General's Handbook to do the edition jump, just to balance the points of every army in the same way at the same time. Otherwise it just leads to pain, confusion, unfairness and rage. A bad move from GW when the answer about how to do it well was just right there in their summer annual release.

[AngryPanda]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

That’s a good point, and that would indicate that GW is “downsizing” AoS to be smaller on the tabletop. Which means games would be faster, less bloated with models, and could save money in the long term for newbies and veterans alike. 
 

1 hour ago, Yoid said:

If that is the case, they should have waited for a General's Handbook to do the edition jump, just to balance the points of every army in the same way at the same time.

Which I also agree with. If it is true that GW developed our battletome in favor of the new handbook, then it means we have to wait longer until our units are more reasonably priced, and even with the point increases we still wouldn’t know if our army is balanced. 

[umpac]

On 3/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Mandollies said:

Other than the final game on the final turn did I summon FYI.

Very interesting to see how Archaon performs in the new Slaanesh. Am I understanding it right that you only summoned something in 1 out of 3 games? Was the games over too fast or did you just not generate enough DP?

On 3/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Mandollies said:

I had used them up to get +1 Save to Archaon in the Combat and the Shooting phases from Lurid Haze

Intoxicating Pall sadly only works in the combat phase.

[ibel]

7 hours ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

Sounds logicel and would explain the high Point Cost. If the new AoS 3.0 in 3-4 Monat raise ALL Point Cost in AoS it will be okay. Itas okay to Play against the Tzeenth Host with 3 Flammer and 1 Exalted Flamer less, ist okay against the KO witout the Speel in the Bottle and 10 Thunderer, ist okay to Play against a Serra without the Atropath Bearer (just with kroak with pls become 460-480 Points... or so) an a Bastilladons. All okay.

 

by the Way, I do the MathHammer. Sickblades and Blissbarb Archers vs. BloodSister/BloodStalkers.

It`s nerlly even without Buffs so the Feeling is Right. These Units are good. Good to Play.

So my List would propably consist out of Glutos O. Sickblades and Blissbarb Archers.

[Mandollies]

1 hour ago, umpac said:

Very interesting to see how Archaon performs in the new Slaanesh. Am I understanding it right that you only summoned something in 1 out of 3 games? Was the games over too fast or did you just not generate enough DP?

Intoxicating Pall sadly only works in the combat phase.

Yep; only summoned in the last game; the first two ended Turn 3 and I had over 12 Depravity by that stage. The last game was about 14 or 15 at the end of turn 5.

As for Intoxicating Pall; I was told after I posted the report; but it only mattered in the first game and instead I would have done reroll 1's with the generic Command Ability and it would be fairly similar outcome iirc with the dice rolls - that said; always up for having mistakes pointed out

Edited March 9, 2021 by Mandollies

[umpac]

9 hours ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Yeah I saw the same rumor on facebook and it seems plausible. It's pretty weird way to go about it but it's not the first time a book is released with future core rule changes in mind. and suffers for it.  Even if it's true though the internal balance is still pretty whack. Blissbarb seekers are an absolute steal at 180 if you compare them to the foot version and Slickblades blows all other combat units out of the water, but maybe they'll see an increase in cost if and when 3.0 and all new points drops.

[Lucentia]

I think it's very plausible that the DoK book was planned for a much earlier release, though putting it closer to BR:Morathi would be odd given how much copy-paste material is shared between those books.  (Though it seems like BR:Teclis and Lumineth 2 are similarly conjoined, so maybe they just want people to double dip on books, idk.)

But whether that's true or not I'm not sure if it can be tied to Hedonites following newer design principles for the speculated next edition, I suppose we'll see what the points look like for whatever the next time is, but I don't know that Lumineth 2 is going to bring matching point rises for the older Lumineth stuff, for example.

[azdimy]

I believe hedonites is the first tome where gw applied a unit point hike because of our summoning capability. They were heavy handed with it especially as our summoning has been seriously toned down with 1 unit per turn max and almost zero chance to summon turn 1. My preference would have been to see a point cost for the fane and the terrain to be required to be on the battlefield for us to be able to summon. This would have opened the book to more varied lists and made our battelines more appealing rather than choosing s2d or boc battlelines because they are far cheaper than our options in this book

[Sorrow]

As @Yoid said, there were far better ways of handling this issue.

Also,  if our Hedonites are designed for AOS 3, would not DoK be designed with same direction in mind?  Because DoK definitely got better rules treatment than we did.  Anyway, we will know soon as Lumineth 2 battletome and rules are up.  

Like others said already, we have a problem of internal balance, not just external.

[Gistradagis]

1 hour ago, Sorrow said:

As @Yoid said, there were far better ways of handling this issue.

Also,  if our Hedonites are designed for AOS 3, would not DoK be designed with same direction in mind?  Because DoK definitely got better rules treatment than we did.  Anyway, we will know soon as Lumineth 2 battletome and rules are up.  

Like others said already, we have a problem of internal balance, not just external.

That IS true. The whole AoS 3.0 edition theory makes sense, cuz the same happened with 40k and points, but it does not explain the terrible internal balance of our book, and the amount of non-bo that we have. And, unfortunately, that can't be fixed with a General's Handbook or an FAQ.

[Popisdead]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:31 PM, Fyrenn said:

I think if they intend the depraved dove to be updated, it would probably be done around the same time - but :shrug:.  I assumed with the warscroll, something like brayherd or warherd would be easily added to give it some degree of functionality if they're not able to make major changes.

I feel either way on this.  They could have easily added Brayherd to the scroll.    Such high hopes given the Dread Pagaent one.... so much excitement to have it ripped away and left only wanting.  Guess they got the "slaanesh" feel of that release 😉

On 3/4/2021 at 2:09 AM, Third said:

Azyr is a hot mess and should be taken as such.. Sadly.. 

Hot mess is a kind reaction to it.  AoS has been getting poor attention this past year (arguably longer, it is noticeably degrading).  Granted I guess it remains to be seen what the next year, and possibility of AoS 3.0 bringing.  I know 40k players go on and on when AoS gets a launch year.  Hopefully gaming picks up with vaccines rolling out.  We may see a great return to gaming in person with an exciting new edition.

On 3/4/2021 at 6:44 AM, Enoby said:

I think they'd be usable at 80-90 points as a cheap shock troop, akin to Chaos Spawn in that you put them in there to get in the way and provide extra bodies to tie things up. They are pretty quick so they have that over chaos warriors

80 was the number I thought of.  Give them the Brayherd keyword and make them 90 and I would take them.  

2" reach seems so oddly rare (maybe?) and 6 for 160-180 points would be interesting to see.  It wouldn't make them good it would just extend them to more usable.  

On 3/4/2021 at 7:58 AM, azdimy said:

It sure feels that way. I know the 6 wounds for our seeker chariot is thematic but it does make them so fragile as well!

the issue I'm having with Seeker Chariots you want them in the battalion and also to be heroes (which you cannot) to get both retreat and charge, a couple more wounds and the ability to stop a pile in.  If anyone wanted a concrete complaint and argument about lack of synergy in the book that's (one of) mine.

 

19 hours ago, Enoby said:

Here's a wild and likely unfounded rumour I've just heard (apparently from the 'playtesters') - the DoK battletome was meant to come out before our own, around the same time as BR Morathi and ours was meant to be out in January. Our points are high on "purpose" as a new standard for armies in AoS 3, a bit like they did with 40k 9e. 

Unlikely to be true but some speculation thrown in there

The last year, so much has been thrown off.  I would fear the higher points are more due to their guessing and missing the mark over AoS 3.0 but who knows.  It's as valid a thought as any.  GW was on a weekly steamroller of releases and the issues around covid have left us with only the idea we can speculate.

Points are handled differently between AoS and 40k.  40k it seems like Chapter Approved is the defacto way.  AoS is more traditionally BattleTomes.  I wonder if this will change.  Perhaps we are on the cusp of a matching style of releasing and pairing the games?