AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[BaronBanana]

Just now, Drazhoath said:

You cant give Glutos any Traits or artefacts because he is a special character.

Fixed

[AngryPanda]

1 hour ago, Poryague said:

Looking at both the dok and HoS. The difference is insane. DoK is just win. The disparity here makes no sense you can look at both books and it's like they didn't bother looking at the other books. This disparity happens way to often.

From what I’ve gathered, there are multiple game design teams at GW that handle the releases for AoS, 40k, and the various specialist games. From videos I’ve seen online reviewing the new HoS, the consensus is that we got the short end of the stick because our release was developed by a team that lowballs power levels. Ultimately, it’s a failure to communicate between the writers, play testers, and overall staff. 

[AngryPanda]

Has anyone play tested the Painbringers? How have they performed? I’m interested to see how they fair against armored units such as blobs of chaos warriors, ardboyz, or stormcasts; other experiences with using them are also welcome 👍 

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

Depending on how the board lays out, a mesmerizing mirror and Spellportal/cacophony from a keeper can do a LOT of first turn damage and generate a lot of DP. I don’t even have the book yet and saw that and I plan on doing it. Sigvald outflanking as an invader is likely as another option. 

Its an interesting idea, but it will be very unreliable as it requires beating bravery scores and resolving two separate spells with no bonuses to cast.

1 hour ago, Poryague said:

Looking at both the dok and HoS. The difference is insane. DoK is just win. The disparity here makes no sense you can look at both books and it's like they didn't bother looking at the other books. This disparity happens way to often.

5 hours ago, Rors said:

I have this horrible feeling that when played correctly, this book will be very pretty much dead centre of mid tier (in my opinion this is actually a good thing, and it's books like DoK that have the ballance way off - although for hedonites this seems more of a coincidence than something intended as the warscrolls, costs and abilities don't seems coherent), BUT out of the experiments with depravity, someone will find a S tier jank list that has zero narrative sense and is power gamed. The problem then becomes that any other hedonite list taken to a competitive scene will be intentionally weaker. While people are talking about a keeper or 30 demonettes for 12 depravity, I think someone will probably write a list that easily does say 9-10 every turn while also being able to pay the game and it'll be enough to break the ballance with just too much summoning as it'll be a chariot t1, chariot t2, keeper or demonettes on t3, sometimes better depending on rolls. That alone is probably enough break the points ballance of the game.

 

7 hours ago, Feii said:

on the same boat, when the rules were sppoiled I went "well, let us wait 2 years for another battletome/AoS 3 supplements/WD articles with new rules and mechanics because this is one of the most boring and uninspiring army ruleset/datasheats release in the AoS for a new army maybe ever. (and for S tier level of sculpts)   

There's certainly plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree, but I can't help but wonder why more people don't see what I see in this book. I've been playing with a couple of lists now and have found the gameplay to be very satisfying and very thematic. Just to respond to a few of the points raised:

• If your balanced "correct" way to play list is solidly mid tier then isn't that a sign of a pretty well designed book? If a hodgepodge thematic list is busted isn't that a bad thing?
• I've found the "power gamed" versions of Slaanesh to be in many ways more thematically on point than the more normal lists. I think the power gamed version of Slaanesh is a build that uses mobility to pin and torture enemy units without killing them outright, plays cat and mouse with objectives, and eventually uses all of the depravity built up to build an overwhelming advantage before finally finishing the opponent off -- all while actively looking for ways to cause pain to your own units to generate even more depravity. How is that not utterly Slaaneshi?
• I think you may be right that there will be a high tier depravity focused build, although I think it will have some natural predators as well. There should be enough bad matchups to keep it honest.
• Boring is the absolute last way I would describe the games I have played with this tome so far
• I also play DoK, and I find it strange that people here are so jealous of the DoK book when so many in the DoK thread are complaining bitterly about that tome being terrible. Personally I think it's a solid tome and I do worry about the shooting a bit, but DoK did get some very significant nerfs. The old Witch Aelf/Sister of Slaughter spam playstyle is substantially weakened.
• I'm 100% sympathetic to some of the disappointment in the new Slaanesh mortals units. Slaangors are an absolute mess, and I think the Myrmidesh also miss the mark. The Twinsouls and Sigvald are both OK -- good enough for mid tier play for sure, and they won't cripple more competitive lists that want to include them or anything. Glutos I'm really not sure about. I think he is at least in line with Twinsouls/Sigvald and very possibly better. The same goes for the Blissbarb Seekers. The Blissbarb Archers and Slickblade Seekers are both very strong. I think the Shardspeaker is solid and will be quite good if the meta shifts away from shooting some. I'd love to see some of these warscrolls brought up to snuff, but I also can't say that I agree with those of you who are saying that all of the new models are terrible on the table.

[umpac]

7 hours ago, Feii said:

on the same boat, when the rules were sppoiled I went "well, let us wait 2 years for another battletome/AoS 3 supplements/WD articles with new rules and mechanics because this is one of the most boring and uninspiring army ruleset/datasheats release in the AoS for a new army maybe ever. (and for S tier level of sculpts) 

Have you played with the new rules? I found them infinitely more fun than the last book, night and day. I get that it's not gonna be for everyone, but it promotes a completely unique playstyle that requires more finesse and less brute force. Some stuff point costs are off, but points go up and down every 6 months anyway so they're subject to change.

5 hours ago, Rors said:

BUT out of the experiments with depravity, someone will find a S tier jank list that has zero narrative sense and is power gamed. The problem then becomes that any other hedonite list taken to a competitive scene will be intentionally weaker. While people are talking about a keeper or 30 demonettes for 12 depravity, I think someone will probably write a list that easily does say 9-10 every turn while also being able to pay the game and it'll be enough to break the ballance with just too much summoning as it'll be a chariot t1, chariot t2, keeper or demonettes on t3, sometimes better depending on rolls. That alone is probably enough break the points ballance of the game.

I mean most power lists doesn't make much narrative sense and all lists for all factions are weaker than the min-maxed top build, but I get your point. I thought there was gonna be a summoning list that were borked but I'm skeptical now. There is no way you're getting turn 1 summons since you get points in the battle shock phase (exception being if you go 2nd and opponent fed you a ton of points in his turn, which wont happened). Even by turn 2 its hard since 9-10 points per turn means you'll have 19-20 pts by the END of the turn, meaning first meaningful summons lands on turn 3.

The issue with summons is also that since they land in the end of the movement phase they might not have an impact on the game before turn 4, by which most games are already decided. Don't get me wrong, its a strong mechanic, but the current summoning rules the impact is delayed compared to before. I do think there is a of potential but I don't think it will break the game.

[swarmofseals]

11 hours ago, Panacea said:

Plague Priest: I have seen some discussion about using Plague Censer Bearers to generate depravity, but what about this guy? He has the same 3” AoE mortal wound to each unit at a 4+, but he also can chant two prayers that can help cause some damage.

 

 

Great Unclean One: I don’t know the points for this guy but maybe he could be a fun way to generate DP and soak damage? He can use the Bileblade to cause 1 wound to himself when either casting or dispelling, and his spell damages everything in a 14” line, friend or foe.

 

The Glottkin: Again, I don’t know his points, but he seems tanky enough, but I was mostly thinking of his spell Fleshy Abundance. It adds 1 wound to the models of a friendly unit within 14” until the next turn. 30 summoned 2W Daemonettes seems pretty tasty. I guess the phases don’t line up too well though, with spellcasting before the summoning, but maybe it could work? Or maybe just start with one big unit and charge headlong into the enemy to tie them up in the beginning of the game? Or is too much of a one-trick pony?

 

Also, is the Exalted Greater Demon of Slaanesh not playable? His command ability Exalted Excess of Violence is what I guess the old CA KoS had and which seem to be missed.

 

GUO isn't a bad idea, but he's really expensive and would eat up most of your allies budget. I think other options are better bang for buck personally.

Glottkin's spell is pretty unreliable. You have to have an available target, resolve the spell with no casting bonuses, and then be in a position for that unit to take a big attack. It's going to be great when it works, but I think this warscroll is too expensive (380) for it to be worthwhile for us.

Plague Priest is very tasty and an interesting idea. The censers have a bit more area coverage to help them hit more units, but the added value of the Plague Priest prayers is quite nice. It's also useful to have another leader, even if a crappy one, for some battleplans.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the Masque might actually be worth considering. The model isn't going to do much of anything in combat, but having a fast hero on a small base is something that I've really wanted in some games. Being able to summon behind the enemy and threaten the backfield is really powerful, and while Keepers can often accomplish this sometimes terrain and enemy models get in the way. The Masque could get around this problem for a relatively small investment. The Contorted Epitome could also fill this role, albeit on a bigger base and with more added value.

[Yoid]

40 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

• I also play DoK, and I find it strange that people here are so jealous of the DoK book when so many in the DoK thread are complaining bitterly about that tome being terrible. Personally I think it's a solid tome and I do worry about the shooting a bit, but DoK did get some very significant nerfs. The old Witch Aelf/Sister of Slaughter spam playstyle is substantially weakened.
• I'm 100% sympathetic to some of the disappointment in the new Slaanesh mortals units. Slaangors are an absolute mess, and I think the Myrmidesh also miss the mark. The Twinsouls and Sigvald are both OK -- good enough for mid tier play for sure, and they won't cripple more competitive lists that want to include them or anything. Glutos I'm really not sure about. I think he is at least in line with Twinsouls/Sigvald and very possibly better. The same goes for the Blissbarb Seekers. The Blissbarb Archers and Slickblade Seekers are both very strong. I think the Shardspeaker is solid and will be quite good if the meta shifts away from shooting some. I'd love to see some of these warscrolls brought up to snuff, but I also can't say that I agree with those of you who are saying that all of the new models are terrible on the table.

The problem is for every little nerf they got, they also got an incredibly big buff in point costs. Every Battletome revew i have seen so far ende with "DoK are incredible powerful and Slaanesh is a joke now" from both DoK and Slaanesh players.

Meanwhile Slaanesh took only nerfs, an already cuadruple times nerfed book with an extra nerf in the point cost of every single unit thanks to the new Battletome (KoS s an excecption, even when cheaper, the nerf in the DP generation and self double activation balance it)

Sure, 40% of Slaanesh is viable. But 60% of Slaanesh is the lowest of lowest tier on unviability

You are gonna see a lot of people jealous of DoK because if we were pointed as agresively as DoK our book would bee strong. Seriously, just imagine our chariots going down 60 pts like theirs do instead of up 30 pts, our Daemonettes going down to 100pts like witch aelves, our archers being 20pts cheaper like Melusai Blood Stalkers, our infantry 20pts cheaper like Melusai Blood Sisters, our Hellstriders 30pts cheaper like Doomfire Warlocks...

DoK players may be crying about their 11/10 Battletome going down to 10/10 Battletome in their own topic. But you are not gonna see them claiming to have the point balance that we have in our 4/10 Battletome like we do with them. You can propose to any player of DoK a swap of points from their battletome to match us and they all gonna call you mad, no one would accept such a deal.

And again, internal balance of our warscrolls is perfectly fine (except for Slaangor Fienbloods) and the tome got a really fun great design of units and rules. But once you read the points, most of the units got the wrong values, only Glutos, Blissbarb Seekers and Slickblade Seekers qualify.

I will leave this here too. Remember, the Daugthers of Khaine Cauldrons are currently filled with the tears of Hedonites of Slaanesh players.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Yoid

[Gistradagis]

The whole "DoK players are crying about their new book" makes me think of that scene from the first Harry Potter movie where Dudley (DoK) is complaining about receiving like a gazillion presents, but a few less than the previous year, while Harry (Slaanesh) looks at them from his spot under the stairs.

To kinda pile in on what swarmofseals is saying, though, I do believe good builds exist, albeit we'll still somewhat feel bad about not being able to use all our toys. In all honesty, to anyone trying to make lists that "work" I recommend to just forget that Myrmidesh and Symbaresh exist, and focus on ample use of both new seekers and archers on foot for a combination of damage and DPs generation.

What looks most promising to me is Godseekers and Lurid Haze. The first using the Seeker Cavalcade for a drops-efficient list with a neat activation wars trick, the second to pull a more traditional list but hide a couple juicy pieces like Sigvald or even a Keeper for ambush while you play a more methodical list (still seekers here and there, but probably no battalion and then some Chaos Warriors and/or Dameonettes, and Blissbarb Archers).

All in all, I still sincerely hope GW will come (sooner rather than later) and say "alright, yeah, was a bit of a swing and miss with the points prices, here's a generalized reduction on like 60% of the book."

[Rachmani]

Well, Point changes will heavily depend on how they'll treat Seraphon, LRL etc. 
My Gut feeling is that, apart from Painbringers, Slaangors & maybe Twin Souls I'd rather have point changes to the top dogs than changes to our units.

I understand the argument, that some of our rules look uninspired - although I'm not necessarily of that opinion - but I kinda feel that we got one of the better books in terms of feel & play style.

We weren't Hedonites of Slaanesh if we could play like Orruks or DoK.
Where would be the fun in that?

[whispersofblood]

The points are definitely on the Conservative side. But, I think we are talking about 10 points here or there. Actually I think bliissbarb seekers should be 200 and Slickblades 180. But we shall see.

[ibel]

37 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The points are definitely on the Conservative side. But, I think we are talking about 10 points here or there. Actually I think bliissbarb seekers should be 200 and Slickblades 180. But we shall see.

But 10 or 20 Points für 8 of my 9 Units in Army are very important. 

A Army of Myrmidon/Painbringers is aktually to expensive. With Point reduze u can take 2 Painbringers or so more. Thats a different game then.

[Magnus The Blue]

The more I think of it the more I think Glutos is seriously under costed.  He's point for point probably the hardest to kill caster in the game (18w, 3+, -1 to hit, 5++ and healing), 2 cast with +1 to cast, massive radius debuff, decent if situational command ability and solid spell.  He's even reasonable fast with re-roll charges and run and charge (from turn 2).  His combat damage is rock solid too, although it does bracket badly.  Also provides a solid summoning base which is definitely going to be a big part of our late game.   Add in the situational bravery help and late game cast bonuses and he's a utility powerhouse.

Biggest disadvantage is probably the large base which without flying is going to be a pain but since he's mostly a support model, not a massive deal.

[Enoby]

10 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

The more I think of it the more I think Glutos is seriously under costed.  He's point for point probably the hardest to kill caster in the game (18w, 3+, -1 to hit, 5++ and healing), 2 cast with +1 to cast, massive radius debuff, decent if situational command ability and solid spell.  He's even reasonable fast with re-roll charges and run and charge (from turn 2).  His combat damage is rock solid too, although it does bracket badly.  Also provides a solid summoning base which is definitely going to be a big part of our late game.   Add in the situational bravery help and late game cast bonuses and he's a utility powerhouse.

Biggest disadvantage is probably the large base which without flying is going to be a pain but since he's mostly a support model, not a massive deal.

Yeah the more I look at Glutos, the better he seems. It's easy to gloss over the fact he has 18 wounds and a 3+ save, with a 5++ save for a while. Not to mention the -1 to hit is a large aura. That makes him tankier than Nagash for half the cost! 

Also, a big point that's hard to appreciate without playing is that his -1 to hit is "enemy units within 12". That means you give a -1 to hit to models just toeing 12" rather than wholly within. 

I reckon using things like the gemnids or the cogs with him (as he's likely to get them off) would allow him to provide massive utility for the whole army. 

Edit: and he gets look our sir and can benefit from cover, unlike most other 18 wound models (he's not a monster or a behemoth). The Fane is rules-wise an obstacle btw, so standing him behind it with some other people around him gives him -1 to hit against shooting and +1 save.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Enoby

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, ibel said:

But 10 or 20 Points für 8 of my 9 Units in Army are very important. 

A Army of Myrmidon/Painbringers is aktually to expensive. With Point reduze u can take 2 Painbringers or so more. Thats a different game then.

I haven't played any games yet so take this with a pinch of salt. The Units I think are slightly overpriced are Slickblades, Lord of Pain, Hellstiders, (Bladebringers)Hellflayers, and Exalted Chariots. Twinsouls I think might be correct, Blissbarb Seekers and bizarrely Seeker chariots seem slightly too cheap to me. 

Painbringers are actually a good elite infantry unit, I'm just not sure 2 wound infantry are good at playing the game such as it is. But, if you compare them to other 2 wound infantry they are definitely head and shoulders above many elites, and are mostly self sufficient. And, if I was to play them it would be in Nobles of Excess, and the army would be about infantry. 20 Painbringiners in the battalion is 740 points for 20 wounds behind a 4+ with mv 6, and can fish for MWs, that isn't unreasonable. I think you need a DP engine though to get the summoning going before turn 3, and you need some way to get pressure on the enemy early. 

So clearly I think there is a viable build there, I think if you are playing competitively it is hard to look passed the opportunity to finally use Fiends, Glutos is a fantastic model and you can easily. 

glutos - 400
2x harps - 300 (Good at generating DP, since they can do dmg to enemy wizards just by being on the table)
The Masque - 130 (good for summoning)
Viceleader - 130 (Heal spell for Glutos)
20 marauders - 160
20 Marauders - 160
10 Daemonettes - 110
6 fiends - 360
Supreme Sybarites - 150
Mesmerizing Mirror - 60 (Generating massive amounts of DP)

1960

I think this is a strong list to build from, and would fit probably best into Lurid Haze.

[Sorrow]

I managed to get some test games with our new rules. Played against Tzeentch, OBR and Skaven. Lost against Tzeentch and OBR, won against Skaven. Stole a few list ideas from you guys, my thanks to @Enoby  @swarmofseals.  That being said,  I did made mistakes during deployment against OBR, things could have gone a bit differently if I did not mess that up.

Overall, my concerns have been somewhat mitigated, we are solid mid-tier army.  The new Hedonites play very much into strategic trapping and pinning down targets and denying your opponents chance to engage you unless conditions favor us greatly.  Control of table is crucial.

Glutos is excellent, no issues there.  Worth every point.

Sigvald is better than Light of Eltharion, he is a amazing beatstick well worth his cost. He is slow and has no meaningful synergy with the rest of army.

LoP, Shardspeaker and Syll'Esske are all worth their cost. More than pleased.

Blissbarb Archers, Blissbarb Seekers and Slickblades Seekers are great. Position Seekers properly in Lurid Haze and they are great.

Sadly, the units that appeal to me greatly, Myrmidesh and Symbaresh are really not that good.  Their overall stats are simply not worth the cost. 

Slaangors are a joke.

 

[Rachmani]

Good to hear! 
It's important to test stuff out first. But then again you always said you would. 

I'm pretty sure one general's handbook in, we will be more than fine. (Fine meaning, "the place most armies should be, to make games fun & engaging". F*** Seraphon. =D)

[Silphid]

Summoning seems strong, but extra cost baked in units seems high. I think long term, summoning DP costs should go up and pts per unit down, to reduce abuse.

As it stands, looking to be as competitive as possible, could we not run the hedonite alliegeance ability of summoning, but use mostly S2D units for their lower point cost? Sure you lose locus (which a mortal themed army wouldnt have anyway) and exploding 6’s, but for that loss, you get more bang for your buck in S2D units, which will all generate Depravity points for summoning, without the summoning tax baked in Hedonite-specific units. I would run painbringers as chaos warriors , melee-converted blissbarb archers for marauders, etc, Glutos as himself or a warshrine, and fuel the summoning.

Doesn’t that make sense, again, if you are looking at optimizing power?

 

[Rors]

7 hours ago, umpac said:

I mean most power lists doesn't make much narrative sense and all lists for all factions are weaker than the min-maxed top build, but I get your point. I thought there was gonna be a summoning list that were borked but I'm skeptical now. There is no way you're getting turn 1 summons since you get points in the battle shock phase (exception being if you go 2nd and opponent fed you a ton of points in his turn, which wont happened). Even by turn 2 its hard since 9-10 points per turn means you'll have 19-20 pts by the END of the turn, meaning first meaningful summons lands on turn 3.

The issue with summons is also that since they land in the end of the movement phase they might not have an impact on the game before turn 4, by which most games are already decided. Don't get me wrong, its a strong mechanic, but the current summoning rules the impact is delayed compared to before. I do think there is a of potential but I don't think it will break the game.

You got me thinking about stupid ways to try and Max out Turn 1 summons and I think I'd go with 6 ungors units (60 points a unit) and a Bray shaman with burning head (in the slanesh betallion.

Then take 6 spawn  (50 points a spawn) and a chaos sorcerer in the slaves slanesh betallion. Add in a crusher Ally and use the fane to wound them.

You still have roughly 700 points left over to do whatever you want with. And will easily get 9 depravity and could go higher if you also want to wound the characters and bubble them closer so the flaming skull hits more. I'm not saying this is competitive, just seeing how crazy one can get.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Rors
had a better idea

[Klamm]

I guess it's encouraging that basically everything from the first Hedonites Battletome has been rebalanced and improved. I hope that when Slaanesh gets its third book (hopefully not soon, just coz I'm disappointed doesn't mean I want GW to start dropping three books in three years), there will be a similar improvement to the mortal half. In that vein, I've been thinking about a way to spend depravity aside from summoning, basically inspired by the Bloodtithe table for Khorne, 

Here's an example of such a system. I'm not a game designer so I'm sure this isn't up to the standards of real rules writers, just ideas for some thematic and tactically satisfying abilities. 

 

Spoiler

 

Moods of Depravity

As cries of pain and pleasure fill the air, Slaanesh's hosts are often overcome waves of emotion. Whether this is a boon from their god or simply the energy of a raucous crowd, it is hard to say. 

At the start of the hero phase, you can use 1 or more Depravity points to receive 1 Mood from table below. The effect lasts until the start of the next hero phase. You can only receive a reward if you have enough Depravity points to pay its cost. If you choose a reward, after resolving its effects your Depravity total is reset to zero.

1 PT.  Bliss of Submission

The song of Slaanesh soothes manic Hedonites into compliance. 

You receive 1 command point.

2 PTS.  Regal Contempt 

Exasperated by cloying sycophants, Hedonite champions shy from the limelight. 

Subtract 1 from hit rolls for shooting attacks that target friendly SLAANESH HEROES that are not MONSTERS. You cannot use command abilities this hero phase. 

3 PTS.  Roiling Insecurity

Slaanesh's heroes shout desperate orders as the fear of failure sinks in. 

Extend the range of command abilities used or spells cast by friendly SLAANESH HEROES by an additional 6". If a friendly SLAANESH HERO benefits from Roiling Insecurity they cannot be chosen to pile in and fight until the end of the combat phase. 

4 PTS.  Fickle Fancy

Frustrated devotees of pleasure abandon their stations in search of more interesting enemies to fight. 

D3 friendly SLAANESH units can retreat and charge. If a unit affected by Fickle Fancy rolls a charge number greater than their leadership characteristic, they cannot be selected as the target of a command ability until the next hero phase. 

5 PTS.  Laceration Lust 

Slaanesh's followers slice the flesh of their enemies with glee, adding a few bites and scratches for good measure.

Select one weapon profile of a friendly SLAANESH unit and improve its rend characteristic by 1. At the end of the combat phase, the unit you selected suffers D3 mortal wounds.

6 PTS.  Manic Paroxysm

Hedonites are seized by a joyous frenzy that threatens to tear their bodies apart. 

D3 friendly SLAANESH units can be selected to pile in and fight at the start of the next combat phase. They cannot fight again in that phase unless an ability or spell allows them to fight more than once. At the end of the combat phase, roll a D6. On a 4+, choose one unit that benefited from Manic Paroxysm and it suffers D6 mortal wounds. On a 1, 2 or 3, your opponent chooses which unit that benefited from Manic Paroxysm suffers D6 mortal wounds. 

 

Notes

• I made it last a single hero phase like with bloodtithe, but the nature of the abilities might be more suited to last until YOUR next hero phase, idk. 
• Bliss of Submission is an ability lifted directly from the Khorne bloodtithe
• Regal Contempt would basically be a way of keeping your little support heroes safe from shooting in the early turns, but the lack of command abilities is too much of a drawback to use in later ones. Non-monsters because not everything in the book needs to benefit Keepers.
• Roiling Insecurity is another boost to those small hero spells and command abilities. The drawback is probably lesser.
• Fickle fancy is a thematic run and charge which is probably better on Daemons due to the bravery thing. It'd be very good but risky on Slickblades, since they only have bravery 6 and you might want the LoP ability on them. 
• Laceration lust. Extra rend is really good so it might be too powerful, the mortal wounds are an attempt at balancing that (as is the fact it only works on one weapon profile). 
• Manic Paroxysm, Okay, I know the activation wars thing is something GW is stamping down on. Thing is, if there's one army that SHOULD be able to fight first it's Slaanesh. And this one at least comes with risks, the opponent might be able to assign D6 mortal wounds to the unit(s) affected. D6 might be too much but these are just ideas. 

I tried to make the abilities thematic by including a downside, starting at debuffs to hero abilities and ending with mortal wounds. In terms of depravity cost, I started from the Khorne system of 1 - [god number], but it's hard to say how that would immediately fit into the existing balancing of depravity summoning. Either way, the rewards should be a little cheaper than summoned units. Extra rend is nice but it's not 300 points of Daemonettes nice. 

Like the Bloodtithe, I went with the keyword SLAANESH rather than HEDONITE. Slaves to Darkness or Beasts of Chaos units absolutely deserve to benefit from SOMETHING in the allegiance. I also took 

I know Khorne players dislike the fact you lose excess Bloodtithe when you select an ability. Perhaps that would also be an unfun limitation for Slaanesh's table, but I feel like Depravity point generation is somewhat easier than Bloodtithe generation (damaging vs destroying units). Anyway, this system means you're really choosing between summoning or using the table. 

 

 

While there are some costing issues with the new mortal Slaanesh units, Depravity abilities would be something I'm even more excited to see. 

I don't know how likely it is since only Khorne has this system while Tzeentch and Nurgle don't, but then the latter two also get some additional mechanics (Nurgle's cycle, Tzeetnch's destiny dice and agendas). Slaanesh's allegiance is comparatively dull. Not terrible, just... austere. Locus and Euphoric Killers are good but they're passive abilities. Depravity points are the part of the allegiance you actually play for, the thing that the three hosts change up. I just want an option to not play Slaanesh as a summoning army (which means running S2D for now but hey, one day). 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Klamm

[Poryague]

7 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Its an interesting idea, but it will be very unreliable as it requires beating bravery scores and resolving two separate spells with no bonuses to cast.

 

There's certainly plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree, but I can't help but wonder why more people don't see what I see in this book. I've been playing with a couple of lists now and have found the gameplay to be very satisfying and very thematic. Just to respond to a few of the points raised:

• If your balanced "correct" way to play list is solidly mid tier then isn't that a sign of a pretty well designed book? If a hodgepodge thematic list is busted isn't that a bad thing?
• I've found the "power gamed" versions of Slaanesh to be in many ways more thematically on point than the more normal lists. I think the power gamed version of Slaanesh is a build that uses mobility to pin and torture enemy units without killing them outright, plays cat and mouse with objectives, and eventually uses all of the depravity built up to build an overwhelming advantage before finally finishing the opponent off -- all while actively looking for ways to cause pain to your own units to generate even more depravity. How is that not utterly Slaaneshi?
• I think you may be right that there will be a high tier depravity focused build, although I think it will have some natural predators as well. There should be enough bad matchups to keep it honest.
• Boring is the absolute last way I would describe the games I have played with this tome so far
• I also play DoK, and I find it strange that people here are so jealous of the DoK book when so many in the DoK thread are complaining bitterly about that tome being terrible. Personally I think it's a solid tome and I do worry about the shooting a bit, but DoK did get some very significant nerfs. The old Witch Aelf/Sister of Slaughter spam playstyle is substantially weakened.
• I'm 100% sympathetic to some of the disappointment in the new Slaanesh mortals units. Slaangors are an absolute mess, and I think the Myrmidesh also miss the mark. The Twinsouls and Sigvald are both OK -- good enough for mid tier play for sure, and they won't cripple more competitive lists that want to include them or anything. Glutos I'm really not sure about. I think he is at least in line with Twinsouls/Sigvald and very possibly better. The same goes for the Blissbarb Seekers. The Blissbarb Archers and Slickblade Seekers are both very strong. I think the Shardspeaker is solid and will be quite good if the meta shifts away from shooting some. I'd love to see some of these warscrolls brought up to snuff, but I also can't say that I agree with those of you who are saying that all of the new models are terrible on the table.

Dok had small changes that brought some rules in line with wholly within  rules. They had all point drops across the board for rules that simply made the book behave as other books.

Almost all key units to the army had 10 to 70 point drop.

Mindrazer no longer requires a bravery check it works on charge with -1 rend and +1damage so the gets cranked to 2 damage rend 1 on charge casting value went to 8 to cast.  Heall you can get unit of witch aelves to rend  2  2 damage. 

The command traits and artifacts changed slightly it was only 3 of them.

Vince Venturella does a good job explaining it. Basically DoK is and has been strong with high offense  and defense now with more bodies.  Some list could see more then 200 points free up to get more stuff. It's night and. Day between the books. There was no brining DoK to fat middle it feels like it shot to the top with good rule design and aggressive on pointing. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Poryague

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, Silphid said:

Summoning seems strong, but extra cost baked in units seems high. I think long term, summoning DP costs should go up and pts per unit down, to reduce abuse.

As it stands, looking to be as competitive as possible, could we not run the hedonite alliegeance ability of summoning, but use mostly S2D units for their lower point cost? Sure you lose locus (which a mortal themed army wouldnt have anyway) and exploding 6’s, but for that loss, you get more bang for your buck in S2D units, which will all generate Depravity points for summoning, without the summoning tax baked in Hedonite-specific units. I would run painbringers as chaos warriors , melee-converted blissbarb archers for marauders, etc, Glutos as himself or a warshrine, and fuel the summoning.

Doesn’t that make sense, again, if you are looking at optimizing power?

 

From my experience you can do this but the S2D units are significantly lacking in offensive output. You trade the ability to do more damage up front for higher grade depravity generation. My instinct from the few games I played is that it'll come out about the same in the end, but it's hard to be sure at this point. It would take a lot more play testing to really get a clear picture.

[Silphid]

Good thing is hedonites can be good stand-ins for S2D models, so I might end up testing both a;ternatives to see what I like. I mainly see the benefit of S2D sorcerors which are much better in my opinion to hedonites small leader equivalent, and marauders are a good screen/threat to go along.

[Sorrow]

22 hours ago, Cambot1231 said:

Was very pumped to go in on this release.  Love the aesthetics was a little hesitant with how detailed the models are and the time needed to paint properly.  But without effective rules and price jump out of pocket its a no go. Maybe we'll see what the second hand market looks like in half a year and an already rumored new battletome coming next year.

Did not heard anything about that.

New Hedonite battletome next year?

I mean, I would love it if we get a third wave of new models, that would be pure joy.

But that is incredibly unfair to other factions.

[Feii]

I think we could expect Slaanesh to escape or at least fully manifest Their herald. Would expect it to have a model too. 


Also that would be a nice way to get Malerion out of the mist of Ulgu. To be fair it doesnt need to be a battletome could be just a Broken realm 2.0 warscroll and rules type of  a supplement. 

[Sorrow]

24 minutes ago, Feii said:

I think we could expect Slaanesh to escape or at least fully manifest Their herald. Would expect it to have a model too. 


Also that would be a nice way to get Malerion out of the mist of Ulgu. To be fair it doesnt need to be a battletome could be just a Broken realm 2.0 warscroll and rules type of  a supplement. 

I would love to see the Newborn as a actual model.  From lore point of view, it would have to be far more powerful than anything else we currently have. Also, really fantastic model that would make even Sigvald/Glutos/KoS pale in comparison.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Sorrow