AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Third]

4 hours ago, Enoby said:

That's really good to hear! What did you use in your list? 

As for abilities we'd like to see, after playing a bit, it might be a good idea to email the rules team. Not to complain, just to say what we'd like to see - especially on Depravity Points being used to buff  We may end up seeing these in Broken Realms style books

Played Invaders Host

• Lord of Pain (general)
• Sigvald
• Keeper (general)
• Masque
• 10x Twinsouls
• 11 Blissbarb Archers
• 11 Blissbarb Archers
• 5x Blissbarb Seekers
• 5x Blissbarb Seekers
• The Dread Pageant
• Burning Skull
• EXTRA CP

Played against Daughters of Khaine
From memory he had:

• Morathi
• Ironscale
• Bloodwrack Medusa
• 10 Blood Sisters
• 5 Blood Sisters
• 5 Blood Sisters
• 10 Blood Stalkers
• Khainite Shadowstalkers
• Khainite Shadowstalkers
• Bloodwrack Viper
• EXTRA CP

He took first turn and I never got the chance for a double. game was decided on the roll-off for turn 5 👍

Edited February 15, 2021 by Third
Math is hard apparently

[Maddpainting]

Slaangors should have both melee profiles for each model at their point cost, change my mind.

[Enoby]

42 minutes ago, Third said:

Played Invaders Host

• Lord of Pain (general)
• Sigvald
• Keeper (general)
• Masque
• 10x Twinsouls
• 11 Blissbarb Archers
• 11 Blissbarb Archers
• 5x Blissbarb Seekers
• 5x Blissbarb Seekers
• The Dread Pageant
• Burning Skull
• EXTRA CP

Total 2000, wounds 111

Played against Daughters of Khaine
From memory he had:

• Morathi
• Ironscale
• Bloodwrack Medusa
• 10 Blood Sisters
• 5 Blood Sisters
• 5 Blood Sisters
• 10 Blood Stalkers
• Khainite Shadowstalkers
• Khainite Shadowstalkers
• Bloodwrack Viper
• EXTRA CP

He took first turn and I never got the chance for a double. game was decided on the roll-off for turn 5 👍

Thanks - sounds like an interesting list! How did you find your units, anything that worked well or didn't work quite as well as you thought?

40 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

Slaangors should have both melee profiles for each model at their point cost, change my mind.

I agree, or that the claw attacks should be doubles for those who don't have a weapon 

[Klamm]

17 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Hello darkness my old friend.... S2D Are actually worse than the new Slaanesh ^^(unless you Love Nurgle and unless you are keen on Khorne Daemon Princes)

Thing is, I'm a Timmy not a Spike. I'm not disappointed because the new Hedonites book is bad (there seem to be some effective summoning tricks). I'm disappointed because it doesn't seem fun (for me). 

The points costs and lack of interesting buffs might be balanced with summoning in mind, but that's little consolation for someone who wants to build an effective mortal force without a Daemon sideboard. I like the lore behind the three Hedonite hosts, but the main tactical change they offer is how you generate Depravity. Pretty much the only benefit the allegiance gives mortals is Euphoric Killers, which is the same as S2D's aura of Slaanesh anyway.

So I'm not saying S2D is a more powerful book, just that it seems more interesting The four legions are much more mechanically distinct than Hedonite hosts and there are varied character auras/command abilities. I'm glad I already started a Slaanesh S2D force, originally intending it for Hedonites.

The thing I want more than points changes (Shardspeaker/LoP  are 150 points but Sorcerer Lord/Lord are 110? c'mon) is an alternate way of spending Depravity. Even if it's less competitive than summoning, if I can spend depravity on buffs (like Khorne Bloodtithe) it'd go a long way. I doubt that's happening soon, though. 

[JackStreicher]

@Klamm they should have provided two playstyles like they did with Seraphon:

one for summoning and one without.

sadly they didn‘t do anything creative.

[Third]

7 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Thanks - sounds like an interesting list! How did you find your units, anything that worked well or didn't work quite as well as you thought?

Lord of Pain did 6 wounds to Morathi, 4 of them from bouncing back
Twinsould Tanked A LOT of his output in turn two (and died, but still)
Blissbarb Seekers where as flexible as I had hoped taking points, doing bow stuff 🏹
My Keeper spiked hard and deleted 10 Blood Sisters after removing the screen with shooting, rolling 6s for both claws and having the Aqshy artifact and re-rolling to  wound for his command trait.
Dread Pageant lived up to what I expected, they are pure blenders for 120 points (also buffed them with Lord of Pain's command ability for even more fun)
Sigvald I threw away with really bad positioning, so better luck next time to mr. naked butt 😂
Blissbarb Archers where fine, but lost a unit turn 1 and turn 2, so they didn't get to do a whole lot (also lost 1 unit of Blissbarb Seekers turn 1 to poor deployment)

Only ever got about 10 DP because everything got blendered (summoned Seekers for some late game objective play), and locus had no impact in the game what so ever..

But as I said, I really really liked how the army felt like  Can't wait for my models to get here so I can start to hobby, and get some games in that is not on TTS (it's just not the same having Eidolon of Mathlann as a standin for Sigvald  ).

[Trav]

2 minutes ago, Third said:

Lord of Pain did 6 wounds to Morathi, 4 of them from bouncing back
Twinsould Tanked A LOT of his output in turn two (and died, but still)
Blissbarb Seekers where as flexible as I had hoped taking points, doing bow stuff 🏹
My Keeper spiked hard and deleted 10 Blood Sisters after removing the screen with shooting, rolling 6s for both claws and having the Aqshy artifact and re-rolling to  wound for his command trait.
Dread Pageant lived up to what I expected, they are pure blenders for 120 points (also buffed them with Lord of Pain's command ability for even more fun)
Sigvald I threw away with really bad positioning, so better luck next time to mr. naked butt 😂
Blissbarb Archers where fine, but lost a unit turn 1 and turn 2, so they didn't get to do a whole lot (also lost 1 unit of Blissbarb Seekers turn 1 to poor deployment)

Only ever got about 10 DP because everything got blendered (summoned Seekers for some late game objective play), and locus had no impact in the game what so ever..

But as I said, I really really liked how the army felt like  Can't wait for my models to get here so I can start to hobby, and get some games in that is not on TTS (it's just not the same having Eidolon of Mathlann as a standin for Sigvald  ).

Sounds cool! Did the twinsouls cause much damage?

[Third]

2 minutes ago, Trav said:

Sounds cool! Did the twinsouls cause much damage?

Not really, but they were between a rock and a hard place. Had 5 left when I got to attack with them (first turn he locked them in combat with morathi, so they retreated out and took the middle objective, hoping for the double). They killed 2½ Blood Sisters and did a few wounds to his Ironscale. He clutched like 3 6++ on the Blood Sisters and they where in their defensive stance

He mentioned that he was very impressed he had to focus them with so much to kill them propper. He has been used to everything Slaanesh just folding over when he looks at it

[Third]

Sorry for posting a lot.. 😅

.. But I guess what I really would like to get across, is that the game I had today with the new book, was honestly my most fun game with Slaanesh ever (started collecting them fall 2019). I'm overall very positive about the changes, but still sad/disappointed because they could pretty easily have made it even greater.

So if you feel a little down about the new book, cheer up a bit and give them a go.. You might be pleasantly surprised and really like their new playstyle, like I do 🥰 

[Enoby]

29 minutes ago, Third said:

Not really, but they were between a rock and a hard place. Had 5 left when I got to attack with them (first turn he locked them in combat with morathi, so they retreated out and took the middle objective, hoping for the double). They killed 2½ Blood Sisters and did a few wounds to his Ironscale. He clutched like 3 6++ on the Blood Sisters and they where in their defensive stance

He mentioned that he was very impressed he had to focus them with so much to kill them propper. He has been used to everything Slaanesh just folding over when he looks at it

 

21 minutes ago, Third said:

Sorry for posting a lot.. 😅

.. But I guess what I really would like to get across, is that the game I had today with the new book, was honestly my most fun game with Slaanesh ever (started collecting them fall 2019). I'm overall very positive about the changes, but still sad/disappointed because they could pretty easily have made it even greater.

So if you feel a little down about the new book, cheer up a bit and give them a go.. You might be pleasantly surprised and really like their new playstyle, like I do 🥰 

Your write ups are very helpful and I think it's very important to hear people's played experiences in addition to theory crafting

Is there any unit in the list you'd not take again or take less of?

1 hour ago, Klamm said:

Even if it's less competitive than summoning, if I can spend depravity on buffs (like Khorne Bloodtithe) it'd go a long way. I doubt that's happening soon, though. 

58 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

they should have provided two playstyles like they did with Seraphon:

one for summoning and one without.

sadly they didn‘t do anything creative.

This is actually something I'd consider writing in about early on. Not as a complaint, but rather as something you'd like to see. This is something I can easily see being in an additional book (like Wrath of the Everchosen, Broken Realms, or even White Dwarf); it wouldn't be any time soon, but it could happen and is much more likely to happen if enough people ask for it

[swarmofseals]

5 minutes ago, Enoby said:

This is actually something I'd consider writing in about early on. Not as a complaint, but rather as something you'd like to see. This is something I can easily see being in an additional book (like Wrath of the Everchosen, Broken Realms, or even White Dwarf); it wouldn't be any time soon, but it could happen and is much more likely to happen if enough people ask for it

I can say for sure that I will be providing this feedback directly to the design team!

[Enoby]

Just now, swarmofseals said:

I can say for sure that I will be providing this feedback directly to the design team!

Me too (after the book's come out and I've read it all)  I think, after the Syll'Esske host came out in White Dwarf, we should be optimistic that they're happy to listen; the Syll'Esske host was a bit OP with our old mechanics, but in general it was them listening to us that we wanted some ways to use mortals

[Third]

19 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Is there any unit in the list you'd not take again or take less of?

Not really, so units I didn't use, that I don't see myself using basically ever is an easier question for me to answer

• Slaangors... (snip)
• Painbringers (maybe)
• Shardspeaker (maybe)
• Hellflayer
• Viceleader
• Contorted Epitome (maybe)

This is based on how exciting and/or strong I find the rules  

[swarmofseals]

I think Slaanesh may be the first army in a long time to really, really want to use all 400 points of allies. I want:

• Be'lakor
• 1-2 units of Plague Censers
• as many Iron Golems or Untamed Beasts as I can manage

Iron Golems/Untamed Beasts are the perfect unit to tank chip damage from Plague Censers. Unlike Chaos Spawn they can actually do some work and they can take 1-2 wounds before losing a model and thus worry less about battleshock.

I'm probably going to try something like 2x censers and 4x warbands to start and see how much I wish that the warbands were Be'lakor.

[azdimy]

7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I think Slaanesh may be the first army in a long time to really, really want to use all 400 points of allies. I want:

• Be'lakor
• 1-2 units of Plague Censers
• as many Iron Golems or Untamed Beasts as I can manage

Iron Golems/Untamed Beasts are the perfect unit to tank chip damage from Plague Censers. Unlike Chaos Spawn they can actually do some work and they can take 1-2 wounds before losing a model and thus worry less about battleshock.

I'm probably going to try something like 2x censers and 4x warbands to start and see how much I wish that the warbands were Be'lakor.

While maxing out allies may make a lot of sense in this book the 1 in 4 limitation may make it quite difficult to bring 6 allies units

[swarmofseals]

5 minutes ago, azdimy said:

While maxing out allies may make a lot of sense in this book the 1 in 4 limitation may make it quite difficult to bring 6 allies units

Ahh I had forgotten it's both 400 points and 1 in 4! I use allies so rarely XD

[azdimy]

Fun fact: my Slaanesh collection went up by 500pts without purchasing anything yet

[Klamm]

48 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I can say for sure that I will be providing this feedback directly to the design team!

Oh cool, great to hear!

I'm trying to modulate my feelings about the battletome. Definitely a bit disappointed but I can have fun in another allegiance, and then there's a chance points/warscroll adjustments (looking at Slaangor with that one) could happen. Also, can't fault the models! 

This is a very egopomp move, but I did call my Slaanesh warriors Hedonytes... in 2018. 

So I'm gonna do whatever weird vision board thing I did last time in hopes for a Bloodtithe-style Depravity table. 

[Grimrock]

Ok, third game down and probably the last until I actually have the book. I tried this out for pretenders:

Keeper
- Strength of Godhood, Strongest Alone
- Silverslash
- Progeny of Damnation
Infernal Enrapturess
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot
- Born of Damnation

3x11 Blissbarbs
10 Myrmidesh
2x5 Chaos Knights
2x Iron Golems

Slaanesh has been doing decently for me so I decided to ramp up the difficulty and try fighting Tzeentch. The list was a changehost with a Lord of Change, Blue Scribes, Fateskimmer, 20 pink horrors, 6 flamers, 3 flamers, 1 exalted flamer, 3 screamers, 10 brimstone horrors. Not generally viewed as a particularly competitive list, but it is flexible. The scenario was shifting objectives. Some notes from the game:

1. The iron golems were great. They were absurdly tanky for their points and generated a decent amount of depravity while also being total throw away units to hold objectives. I think they're one of the best ally choices we have based on what our book is lacking
2. Chaos knights were... ok. Tanky and fast enough, but no real damage to speak of. Like @Enoby said, just not quite good enough
3. Myrmidesh were tanky and did good damage, but oddly speed 6 felt too slow for the army. I had to deploy a little further back to avoid an alpha strike from the flamers, but that meant the myrmidesh spent two turns working their way to an objective. Tzeentch was able to just ignore them or feed them chaff until turn 3 
3. Tzeentch prioritized the Blissbarbs early to cut off depravity. The Blissbarbs were too squishy to stand up to even mediocre shooting and, combined with their bravery of 6, were pretty much all gone at the end of round 1. They're great against melee armies, but against an opponent with ranged attacks that knows their value don't expect the Blissbarbs to last long
4. The list was about as resilient as I could make it, but in the end it wasn't good enough. Tzeentch ranged attacks and magic were used to focus down targets and actively avoid generating unnecessary depravity. This game I only got to summon 30 daemonettes turn 3 and 10 more on turn 4. 
5. Slaanesh had absolutely no answer to the 20 teleporting pink horrors. They followed the shifting objective, deleted a unit a turn, and  gained control of the objective by auto charging using destiny dice. There was one chance to do some damage with the 30 summoned daemonettes, but they failed their re-rollable charge the turn they came in and that was about it
6. Honestly the game only lasted until round 4 because there was no double turn. If at any point tzeentch had gotten a double turn it would have been over. This is particularly true at the beginning of round 2. If there was a double turn there then there would have been too many dead slaanesh units to generate more than a handful of depravity points from then on.

What I'm really struggling with is there are no battalions to get Slaanesh down to 1-2 drops outside of the pleasurebound warband from S2D. This means that there's a good chance we'll always be forced to go first against a competitive list, and then a round 2 double turn pretty much ends the game. Too much dies over a double and after that there just isn't enough left to generate the depravity needed to use summoning effectively. This is the biggest flaw of the book I've found so far, and the only possible solution I can think of is finding ways to hurt your own units and generate a large amount of depravity on turn one. The Fomoroid Crusher or Plague Censer Bearers mentioned by others are good ways to do this, but honestly.... I just don't really like the idea. I'm already not particularly happy that I'm feeling compelled to reach for S2D units to shore up weaknesses present in a brand new book, but having to go completely outside of the Slaanesh keyword and grab allies feels even worse. Not much more I can say, but I'm hopeful someone else will find some answers I'm missing. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Grimrock

[AngryPanda]

20 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Ok, third game down and probably the last until I actually have the book. I tried this out for pretenders:

Keeper
- Strength of Godhood, Strongest Alone
- Silverslash
- Progeny of Damnation
Infernal Enrapturess
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot
- Born of Damnation

3x11 Blissbarbs
10 Myrmidesh
2x5 Chaos Knights
2x Iron Golems

Slaanesh has been doing decently for me so I decided to ramp up the difficulty and try fighting Tzeentch. The list was a changehost with a Lord of Change, Blue Scribes, Fateskimmer, 20 pink horrors, 6 flamers, 3 flamers, 1 exalted flamer, 3 screamers, 10 brimstone horrors. Not generally viewed as a particularly competitive list, but it is flexible. The scenario was shifting objectives. Some notes from the game:

1. The iron golems were great. They were absurdly tanky for their points and generated a decent amount of depravity while also being total throw away units to hold objectives. I think they're one of the best ally choices we have based on what our book is lacking
2. Chaos knights were... ok. Tanky and fast enough, but no real damage to speak of. Like @Enoby said, just not quite good enough
3. Myrmidesh were tanky and did good damage, but oddly speed 6 felt too slow for the army. I had to deploy a little further back to avoid an alpha strike from the flamers, but that meant the myrmidesh spent two turns working their way to an objective. Tzeentch was able to just ignore them or feed them chaff until turn 3 
3. Tzeentch prioritized the Blissbarbs early to cut off depravity. The Blissbarbs were too squishy to stand up to even mediocre shooting and, combined with their bravery of 6, were pretty much all gone at the end of round 1. They're great against melee armies, but against an opponent with ranged attacks that knows their value don't expect the Blissbarbs to last long
4. The list was about as resilient as I could make it, but in the end it wasn't good enough. Tzeentch ranged attacks and magic were used to focus down targets and actively avoid generating unnecessary depravity. This game I only got to summon 30 daemonettes turn 3 and 10 more on turn 4. 
5. Slaanesh had absolutely no answer to the 20 teleporting pink horrors. They followed the shifting objective, deleted a unit a turn, and  gained control of the objective by auto charging using destiny dice. There was one chance to do some damage with the 30 summoned daemonettes, but they failed their re-rollable charge the turn they came in and that was about it
6. Honestly the game only lasted until round 4 because there was no double turn. If at any point tzeentch had gotten a double turn it would have been over. This is particularly true at the beginning of round 2. If there was a double turn there then there would have been too many dead slaanesh units to generate more than a handful of depravity points from then on.

What I'm really struggling with is there are no battalions to get Slaanesh down to 1-2 drops outside of the pleasurebound warband from S2D. This means that there's a good chance we'll always be forced to go first against a competitive list, and then a round 2 double turn pretty much ends the game. Too much dies over a double and after that there just isn't enough left to generate the depravity needed to use summoning effectively. This is the biggest flaw of the book I've found so far, and the only possible solution I can think of is finding ways to hurt your own units and generate a large amount of depravity on turn one. The Fomoroid Crusher or Plague Censer Bearers mentioned by others are good ways to do this, but honestly.... I just don't really like the idea. I'm already not particularly happy that I'm feeling compelled to reach for S2D units to shore up weaknesses present in a brand new book, but having to go completely outside of the Slaanesh keyword and grab allies feels even worse. Not much more I can say, but I'm hopeful someone else will find some answers I'm missing. 

From what I am gathering from your experience, as well as others who’ve been experimenting with the new tomb, it feels like a lot of the mortal stuff could use a decrease in point costs. Painbringers could be brought down to about 120-130ish range. I have a feeling that (hopefully) in the next month or two, based on feedback and play testing, we’re going to get a faq that gives a decent decrease to some of our units.  

Edited February 15, 2021 by AngryPanda

[Overread]

A thought for those looking for a point decrease - don't forget summoning. It might be good to keep track of your summoning rates because as much as you might want points to go down, it might also be that summoning costs need to go up to counterbalance that. Otherwise those looking to run mortal heavy lists will be pushing for cheaper armies whilst those running demon summoning focused lists might well be already doing very well and not in need of lowering points; that doing so could muck up the balance if done in isolation. 

[Enoby]

34 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Ok, third game down and probably the last until I actually have the book. I tried this out for pretenders:

Keeper
- Strength of Godhood, Strongest Alone
- Silverslash
- Progeny of Damnation
Infernal Enrapturess
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot
- Born of Damnation

3x11 Blissbarbs
10 Myrmidesh
2x5 Chaos Knights
2x Iron Golems

Slaanesh has been doing decently for me so I decided to ramp up the difficulty and try fighting Tzeentch. The list was a changehost with a Lord of Change, Blue Scribes, Fateskimmer, 20 pink horrors, 6 flamers, 3 flamers, 1 exalted flamer, 3 screamers, 10 brimstone horrors. Not generally viewed as a particularly competitive list, but it is flexible. The scenario was shifting objectives. Some notes from the game:

1. The iron golems were great. They were absurdly tanky for their points and generated a decent amount of depravity while also being total throw away units to hold objectives. I think they're one of the best ally choices we have based on what our book is lacking
2. Chaos knights were... ok. Tanky and fast enough, but no real damage to speak of. Like @Enoby said, just not quite good enough
3. Myrmidesh were tanky and did good damage, but oddly speed 6 felt too slow for the army. I had to deploy a little further back to avoid an alpha strike from the flamers, but that meant the myrmidesh spent two turns working their way to an objective. Tzeentch was able to just ignore them or feed them chaff until turn 3 
3. Tzeentch prioritized the Blissbarbs early to cut off depravity. The Blissbarbs were too squishy to stand up to even mediocre shooting and, combined with their bravery of 6, were pretty much all gone at the end of round 1. They're great against melee armies, but against an opponent with ranged attacks that knows their value don't expect the Blissbarbs to last long
4. The list was about as resilient as I could make it, but in the end it wasn't good enough. Tzeentch ranged attacks and magic were used to focus down targets and actively avoid generating unnecessary depravity. This game I only got to summon 30 daemonettes turn 3 and 10 more on turn 4. 
5. Slaanesh had absolutely no answer to the 20 teleporting pink horrors. They followed the shifting objective, deleted a unit a turn, and  gained control of the objective by auto charging using destiny dice. There was one chance to do some damage with the 30 summoned daemonettes, but they failed their re-rollable charge the turn they came in and that was about it
6. Honestly the game only lasted until round 4 because there was no double turn. If at any point tzeentch had gotten a double turn it would have been over. This is particularly true at the beginning of round 2. If there was a double turn there then there would have been too many dead slaanesh units to generate more than a handful of depravity points from then on.

What I'm really struggling with is there are no battalions to get Slaanesh down to 1-2 drops outside of the pleasurebound warband from S2D. This means that there's a good chance we'll always be forced to go first against a competitive list, and then a round 2 double turn pretty much ends the game. Too much dies over a double and after that there just isn't enough left to generate the depravity needed to use summoning effectively. This is the biggest flaw of the book I've found so far, and the only possible solution I can think of is finding ways to hurt your own units and generate a large amount of depravity on turn one. The Fomoroid Crusher or Plague Censer Bearers mentioned by others are good ways to do this, but honestly.... I just don't really like the idea. I'm already not particularly happy that I'm feeling compelled to reach for S2D units to shore up weaknesses present in a brand new book, but having to go completely outside of the Slaanesh keyword and grab allies feels even worse. Not much more I can say, but I'm hopeful someone else will find some answers I'm missing. 

Thanks for the write up  I am wondering if we should focus more on our tanky units like Twin Souls (which could have dealt decent damage to the horrors in a large unit) and making them battleline with the Lord of Pain (not in pretenders mind). I think the Iron Golems are a good should mind, with how cheap they are they can sit on objectives and keep them. 

From what I can tell of your list, I think you lacked sufficient damage and threat to push on the Tzeentch damage dealers and horrors, giving them ample opportunity to kill your units at their leisure. I think you could drop the chariot and enrapturess for some Twin Souls, and swap out the chaos knights for the glaives again in small units so they're less bothered by bravery; I think like we both agree, Chaos Knights just kind of crash into the unit and then do nothing - they're not a waste of points exactly, but they don't fill in the role of fast DPS and are more like fast chaff to tie things up. 

I'd like to try against a Tzeentch list (I know one player) as I'm not sure how things would work in practise, but I think Twin Souls and Glutos could help a bit with tanking their mortal wounds and providing good threat. With low saves, I think the Twin Souls win over the Myrmidesh against Tzeentch and the Slickblades can pick them apart. 

[Gistradagis]

40 minutes ago, Overread said:

A thought for those looking for a point decrease - don't forget summoning. It might be good to keep track of your summoning rates because as much as you might want points to go down, it might also be that summoning costs need to go up to counterbalance that. Otherwise those looking to run mortal heavy lists will be pushing for cheaper armies whilst those running demon summoning focused lists might well be already doing very well and not in need of lowering points; that doing so could muck up the balance if done in isolation. 

To be fair, I'd say the vast majority of players would happily take that trade.

It all feels very dramatic because Slaanesh just got both updated AND their mortal "faction" release, but this new iteration of the army seems to practically punish you for wanting to play with your new toys (overcosted units, no Locus of Distraction (not even for Sigvald!? He has 0 interaction with both armies, no buffs for you, no Locus or impact on the opponent), battalions that make little sense and have harsh unit taxes, etc) and instead declares that you'll either live or die by summoning, whether you like it or not.

So while the update makes Slaanesh way more fun to play, it also feels extremely restrictive in what type of list you can actually have fun with (seekers and/or daemons basically).

Edited February 16, 2021 by Gistradagis

[Overread]

The other thing to consider is that GW might not consider full mortal hedonite armies to be how the army should play. Part of army design is creating a concept for the army to follow and a structure for it. It helps to underpin the design and balance. So arguments that the army "doesn't work without demons" might fall on deaf ears if that's the whole point of the army. 

GW might well expect players who want a mortal army to splice into Slaves to Darkness and then add hedonites there; rather than trying to make the god army into a non-demon force. 

[Gistradagis]

19 minutes ago, Overread said:

The other thing to consider is that GW might not consider full mortal hedonite armies to be how the army should play. Part of army design is creating a concept for the army to follow and a structure for it. It helps to underpin the design and balance. So arguments that the army "doesn't work without demons" might fall on deaf ears if that's the whole point of the army. 

GW might well expect players who want a mortal army to splice into Slaves to Darkness and then add hedonites there; rather than trying to make the god army into a non-demon force. 

That's a fair point, but it then begs the question: why release mortal Hedonites that do not work well, be it by themselves or with daemons? I'd be totally a-okay with the faction basically telling me that you can play mortals, but always in a mixed lists to cover the "holes" those units have. But right now, it's more like Seekers and archers are good enough to fit in most lists, while half the heroes, all the battalions and all the infantry fit in 0 lists and punish you for trying to make them work.

I totally get a unified vision/mechanic for the faction. While it would have been cool for it to be like Seraphon, as some people are commenting, with a sub-faction based around DPs factories and summoning, while the other rewards more field presence from your list, it's also fine to be told that the book is meant to be used in its entirety when list-building, no matter the sub-faction/Host. But then we need for this to be achievable. Why does Depraved Carnival tax you with 3 whole heroes, with 2 options where neither makes sense as a complement to the archers and their playstyle? For Nobles of Excess, ironically, it would fit to have a tax of a Lord of Pain and/or Shardspeakers, mechanically, but instead it consists of the 2 chief unplayable units by themselves, with an ability that you'll get off perhaps once, perhaps twice in the entire game. Exalted Speed-Knights are interesting, but it's a battalion that takes 1180 points at its minimum, but neither of its 3 units are battleline, so you're left with almost no building space, and still needing heroes.

This is basically what I mean, with how it feels like most of the new range of stuff seems to punish you for trying to use it. I've been playing around with Slaanesh, both with list-building and actual games, and I'm both very happy with the changes to the faction itself (DPs are more interesting, the new Locus is so tactic and fun to try and use with imagination and skilfully), but saddened that most of my lists are daemons + some seekers in either no battalions or the old ones.

I guess my question is, what was the design space for the new mortals? Were the battalions meant to work, and something went wrong between design and rules/points? Did they get rules written in a vacuum, but then later on got taxed in points and battalions due to the strong summoning? With the feedback that's starting to pour in, was this the aim of the team? Or did they expect lists of mortals/mixed units? I mean, both Myrmidesh and Symbaresh were so hyped, and are so beutiful, and yet are very clearly the worst offenders of "these are useless as they stand."

Edited February 16, 2021 by Gistradagis