AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[swarmofseals]

@Are Verlo unfortunately you still have to end a charge within .5" of the enemy, so unless your  opponent charges something else and ends up within 3" of the Slaangors you can't set up situations like the ones you described.

[Enoby]

23 minutes ago, Geoffreyvt said:

Hi followers of slaanesh! 

I am looking towards investing in a new army and was seriously interested in the HoS, really LOVE the new mortals and their Persian vibe. So after reading the mixed reception of the new codex in this forum, I was wondering if you could help me out. 

I always did like the mortal side of chaos, and I was wondering if it is possible to play a mortal HoS army without much summoning involved. The summoning I would play around is putting something big on the field, a keeper, instead of more small deamons, like 30 deamonettes. The idea is that the mortals did cause enough satisfaction (In doing/taking damage), that a big chaos spawn appears. 

So, in this theme. Do you think it can work? Focusing on the mortals to build an army and the solely summoning to be done will be bigger monsters? 

Or do you reckon it wouldn't be playable? 

If not, I will probably look into DoK, since I love their anesthetic as well. 

Do you have tabletop simulator? Could be a good idea to give that a go and see what we're like Personally, I really like the look of our new battletome and the only real issue I see is the points (which may not be an issue). I think you can definitely start a mortal only army, but you probably would want some daemonettes to summon. That said, as we can only summon once a turn, you can probably get away with just 30 daemonettes to resummon and call it a day there 

[Are Verlo]

8 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@Are Verlo unfortunately you still have to end a charge within .5" of the enemy, so unless your  opponent charges something else and ends up within 3" of the Slaangors you can't set up situations like the ones you described.

Dang, forgot about that detail.  That ruins one of the possible uses/advantages over bullgors. But you can charge one target and set up so that the Slaangors are 2" away from a unit affected by the locus. Say your KoS charges a big unit, the Slaagors charge a nearby unit or hero and then piles in to 2" if the locus activates. 

[Enoby]

I'm wondering how the Dread Pageant will be; normally underworlds aren't great, but for 120pts they don't seem too bad under our new rules 

[Enoby]

53 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Ok, second game down. I tried this list out with godseekers:

Keeper
- retreat/charge trait
- Cameo of the Dark Prince (illegal! forgot to remove the second artifact when I tweaked the list)
Contorted Epitome
- Enrapturing Circlet (no retreats for enemies in 3")
The Masque

3x Blissbarbs
30 daemonettes
2x Slickblades

Chronomatic Cogs

I was up against a blightking heavy nurgle army. 3 units of 5 kings, 1 unit of 20, the Glottkin, Gutrot Spume, Lord of Blights, Harbinger, all in a Blight Cyst. Also an Aethervoid Pendulum and extra command point. Some notes:

1. Despite the smaller unit count of the opponent and generally higher resilience the depravity flowed pretty well. Turn 3 I summoned 30 more daemonettes and I had 18 more points going into turn 4. This was assisted greatly by having the keeper as my general with the retreat and charge trait giving me multiple d3+1 points. 
2. The new locus combined with the enrapturing circlet (no retreating) was extremely nasty. On turn 2 the big unit of blight kings were spread out in a line in the middle after killing off 2 units of blissbarbs set up as a screen. I managed to tag the unit with the keeper on one side and the epitome in the middle. The locus went off locking them in place and I killed a few with the keeper. Nurgle had to kill off the middle kings and intentionally lose half the unit in the battle shock phase in order to get 3" away from the epitome and prevent the whole unit from being frozen in place by the circlet on their turn. If they had lost one less king the unit would have been completely useless the next turn.
3. A keeper getting permanent +1 to hit off of the fane is fantastic. Seems obvious but it just felt way better all game. Also the locus makes them so annoying to deal with. I think they're the best general for godseekers.
4. Bravery 6 on the slickblades suuuucks. They do a solid damage, but multiple times I lost models I couldn't afford to lose due to a battle shock test. I honestly think chaos knights might be a better pick overall, even if it's just for the 2 extra bravery.
5. Blissbarbs were great again. Concentrating fire did a good chunk of damage and it's just so refreshing to be able to do something in the shooting phase.
6. Despite all the positive points, slaanesh felt behind pretty much all game. There were a couple moments where there was a chance, like summoning 30 daemonettes to charge and steal a back line objective, but even with the summoning they were just ground under by the nurgle army. Never enough models. Had Nurgle gotten even one double turn it would have been totally over.
7. We're really lacking a decent screening unit. I had to use 2 units of blissbarbs, but at 160 points they're too valuable to use like that. I wonder if allying in some Iron Golems from S2D might be a good idea, but the list is super tight for points. 
8. I'm finding I generally use most of my command points to auto pass bravery to ensure I get the depravity out of units
9. Again, only being able to summon once per turn is really tough. If I could have summoned two units on turn 4 I might have been able to turn the game around, but with only a single unit I just couldn't get enough done. For an army that seems to be built around summoning it's a really frustrating restriction.

 

 

Thanks very much for these write ups - they help a lot to get an in depth look at the army

For screening, do you think it would be worth losing 5 slickblades and getting two units of chaos warriors (or some iron golems)? 
 

Also, do you think 6 fiends + Glutos would make for a tanky unit? It might suffer to armies with shooting, but on the other hand it's probably very hard to shift on armies that rely on combat only (esp with Glutos's spell). I would like to test out the army myself on tts but I really don't like using it (tbh I'm just bad at controlling it) so I'll need to wait 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Enoby

[Poryague]

 

Save	Chosen	Chosen buffed	Myrmerdish	Myrmerdish buffed
2+	5.19	8.76	3.56	5.16
3+	6.67	11.26	4.58	6.77
4+	8.15	13.76	5.6	8.39
5+	9.63	16.26	6.62	10
6+	11.11	18.77	7.64	11.61
-	11.11	18.77	7.64	11.61

 

Chosen are 140 and myrmerdish are 150.  Chosen buffed by sorcerer. Myrmerdish  buffed by lord of pain and shard bringer survived to get off plus 1 to wound.  I would say even adjusting for summoning they are 10-30ish points over.

[Grimrock]

2 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Thanks very much for these write ups - they help a lot to get an in depth look at the army

For screening, do you think it would be worth losing 5 slickblades and getting two units of chaos warriors (or some iron golems)? 
 

Also, do you think 6 fiends + Glutos would make for a tanky unit? It might suffer to armies with shooting, but on the other hand it's probably very hard to shift on armies that rely on combat only (esp with Glutos's spell). I would like to test out the army myself on tts but I really don't like using it (tbh I'm just bad at controlling it) so I'll need to wait 

My pleasure, it helps me when I organize my thoughts like this as well. I'm not really sure on the screening honestly. The army is already lacking in damage so dropping a unit of Slickblades completely might hurt it too much. The best I could come up with would be downgrading both units of Slickblades to chaos knights and making use of the 80 points that frees up for a unit of Iron Golems. One unit might not be enough of a screen, but it would help a little at least. I did have a lot of success with my last game running a big block of 15 chaos warriors as a screen but that requires a more significant list rewrite.

Fiends and Glutos would be an absolute terror for a melee army to deal with to be sure. My main problems are it's 760 points and, like you said, a shooting army would pick the fiends apart too quickly. I'm also having trouble envisioning how to use Glutos. He's super tanky and his kit gets him into combat really quickly, but once he gets there he just doesn't do enough damage to justify his points. Not enough meaningful support either. 

[Poryague]

13 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

My pleasure, it helps me when I organize my thoughts like this as well. I'm not really sure on the screening honestly. The army is already lacking in damage so dropping a unit of Slickblades completely might hurt it too much. The best I could come up with would be downgrading both units of Slickblades to chaos knights and making use of the 80 points that frees up for a unit of Iron Golems. One unit might not be enough of a screen, but it would help a little at least. I did have a lot of success with my last game running a big block of 15 chaos warriors as a screen but that requires a more significant list rewrite.

Fiends and Glutos would be an absolute terror for a melee army to deal with to be sure. My main problems are it's 760 points and, like you said, a shooting army would pick the fiends apart too quickly. I'm also having trouble envisioning how to use Glutos. He's super tanky and his kit gets him into combat really quickly, but once he gets there he just doesn't do enough damage to justify his points. Not enough meaningful support either. 

Save	Kos	Glutos	Glutos rr hit from LoP
2+	4.36	5.21	6.61
3+	5.69	7.51	9.53
4+	7.03	9.81	12.44
5+	8.36	12.1	15.36
6+	9	13.98	17.75
-	9	14.19	18.03

 

Gluto does do more damage then a kos is more survivable offers more to the army. With a lord of pain ca he shoots way past a kos. You can also activate him again with kos.

[Rivener]

Yeah, Glutos and the KoS aren’t anywhere near killy enough for their points- they are support pieces. Boy they’re expensive, though. 

 

[Enoby]

9 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

My pleasure, it helps me when I organize my thoughts like this as well. I'm not really sure on the screening honestly. The army is already lacking in damage so dropping a unit of Slickblades completely might hurt it too much. The best I could come up with would be downgrading both units of Slickblades to chaos knights and making use of the 80 points that frees up for a unit of Iron Golems. One unit might not be enough of a screen, but it would help a little at least. I did have a lot of success with my last game running a big block of 15 chaos warriors as a screen but that requires a more significant list rewrite.

Fiends and Glutos would be an absolute terror for a melee army to deal with to be sure. My main problems are it's 760 points and, like you said, a shooting army would pick the fiends apart too quickly. I'm also having trouble envisioning how to use Glutos. He's super tanky and his kit gets him into combat really quickly, but once he gets there he just doesn't do enough damage to justify his points. Not enough meaningful support either. 

Yeah that makes sense - though I've never been a fan of chaos knights. Maybe you'd had better luck with them, but they always felt too swingy with a lance and like they didn't have enough purpose with the swords. I think they need support, such as a sorcerer or chaos lord for the double pile in. I don't think they'd manage to be the hammer of the army. 

I'm wondering if Syll'Esske's CA would become a good one with the slickblades. Not in godseekers, but in invaders - they'd remove their battleshock problem at least, which is good. Actually, tbh I think Syll'Esske's CA is going to be super super useful in general to ensure that we never have to spend more than one CP on saving a unit from battleshock

Yeah, it'd have to be a big investment - the focus of the list, and I don't know if it has the strength for that. Certainly not against shooting spam, but I think there's some potential. Even if it's just the unit of 3 fiends. I think it'd be worth giving a try at the least - thankfully I have quite a few fiends anyway, so I don't have to buy any to make the list

His combat isn't awful - he does an average of  10.5 damage against a 4+ save and provides some battleshock immunity later on. I think his spell will be great for shutting something down, and his CA actually works kinda nicely with fiends

[Grimrock]

23 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Save	Kos	Glutos	Glutos rr hit from LoP
2+	4.36	5.21	6.61
3+	5.69	7.51	9.53
4+	7.03	9.81	12.44
5+	8.36	12.1	15.36
6+	9	13.98	17.75
-	9	14.19	18.03

 

Gluto does do more damage then a kos is more survivable offers more to the army. With a lord of pain ca he shoots way past a kos. You can also activate him again with kos.

Are you giving the keeper an artifact and command trait for those calculations? There's no way I'd be paying points for a naked keeper, so there's not much use in considering one without at least the permanent +1 to hit from the fane. I know Glutos can grab it once on the first turn, but after that he'll likely be too far away to get the buff. 

Regardless, like @Rivener said they're both going to be primarily support pieces. I like the keeper's kit for that more though, the locus makes them incredibly difficult to handle and the command ability to attack twice can be amazingly powerful on the right unit. Glutos is tanky, but he offers very little meaningful support for the rest of the army despite his wall of text.  Also the biggest issue I've run into so far is a lack of significant damange, not resilience. I'm not saying he's awful or anything, but being tanky and killing a unit of liberators every turn just doesn't seem like enough for 400 points. Maybe I jut need to give him a shot and see how it goes.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Grimrock

[Poryague]

The army is to much glass and does not hit hard enough. One way to play that stands out is pinning and harrasing units. Use daemon heroes to pin units. A kos can pin a more dangerous unit and chip at it. Glutos can slow down a dangerous unit. archers grab objectives shoot anything in range maybe kill some foot heroes , shoot at soft unit, support fire for a daemon hero is pinning a unit. Then our slower or more squishy combat units come in to help.

So it's all about stopping the opponent from moving and soften the enemy units then come in for the kill. This would also generate dp. The main problem is points to pull it off with the right combination of units. Also there are armies this won't work with to well. 

[Poryague]

8 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Are you giving the keeper an artifact and command trait for those calculations? There's no way I'd be paying points for a naked keeper, so there's not much use in considering one without at least the permanent +1 to hit from the fane. I know Glutos can grab it once on the first turn, but after that he'll likely be too far away to get the buff.

Regardless, like @Rivener said they're both going to be primarily support pieces. I like the keeper's kit for that more though, the locus makes them incredibly difficult to handle and the command ability to attack twice can be amazingly powerful on the right unit. Glutos is tanky, but he offers very little meaningful support for the rest of the army despite his wall of text.  Also the biggest issue I've run into so far is a lack of significant damange, not resilience. Maybe I jut need to give him a shot and see how it goes.

I didn't give kos something because there a lot of choices depending on what you want the kos to do and which host. Obviously if hard focus on killing you can close the gap like by giving kos +1 attack for the claws.  Then rr to hit from a lord of pain on Glutos would be hard to close the gap on.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Poryague

[Poryague]

 

 

13 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Are you giving the keeper an artifact and command trait for those calculations? There's no way I'd be paying points for a naked keeper, so there's not much use in considering one without at least the permanent +1 to hit from the fane. I know Glutos can grab it once on the first turn, but after that he'll likely be too far away to get the buff. 

Regardless, like @Rivener said they're both going to be primarily support pieces. I like the keeper's kit for that more though, the locus makes them incredibly difficult to handle and the command ability to attack twice can be amazingly powerful on the right unit. Glutos is tanky, but he offers very little meaningful support for the rest of the army despite his wall of text.  Also the biggest issue I've run into so far is a lack of significant damange, not resilience. I'm not saying he's awful or anything, but being tanky and killing a unit of liberators every turn just doesn't seem like enough for 400 points. Maybe I jut need to give him a shot and see how it goes.

Save	Kos +1 to hit	Glutos	Glutos rr hit from LoP	Kos +1 attack on claws
2+	5.17	5.21	6.61	5.54
3+	6.75	7.51	9.53	7.22
4+	8.33	9.81	12.44	8.9
5+	9.92	12.1	15.36	10.58
6+	10.67	13.98	17.75	11.22
-	10.67	14.19	18.03	11.22

 

Looks like +1 attack on the claws does more to close the gap.

[AngryPanda]

In my previous posts, I had said that there was nothing in the release that seemed to interest me much, and that I will be holding back from purchasing the battletomb because I felt the mortal release is a disappoint. Since then, I've given a few days to think, and watch some videos on the subject (The Honest Wargamer and Reroll Ones on Youtube), and read some Goonhammer articles reviewing the battletomb. I've also taken the time to look over the statistics that are being posted here and on various places throughout web, and have done some point/dps comparisons. 

This release has sparking a number of mixed emotions. Some people are thrilled, and are claiming that there's a lot to be excited about; others are on the complete opposite of the spectrum and are very upset. There is such a division in opinions, that this actually might be one of the most divided releases I've seen in AoS. As a disclaimer, I am no established authority on the matter; I do not run tournaments or work closely with those that balance the game. However, I have been wargaming for 10+ years as a casual and sometimes tournament gamer, and I feel that I've built enough experience to make some confident assessments based on instinct and my knowledge of the game. 

This being said, there are some disclaimers I wish to establish:

- Math is a wonderful tool that can used as evidence, but it is no way proof that something is under or overperforming. There are many, many other factors to consider in order to determine if something is over or underpowered for its points. Some considerations include, but are not limited to: battalions, allegiance abilities,  synergy capabilities between other units and heroes, subfaction benefits, and special rules on the warscrolls. Blightkings are a great example. On paper, they don't seem powerful, and by themselves they're not. However, with battalion bonuses they go from being a meh unit to being a fantastic battleline. Khorne is another example, as many of his units have average warscrolls, but once you include the number of easy +1 stackable attack buffs and +1 to hit/wounds the army can receive, this changes very quickly. A 10 man bloodwarrior unit will decimate low-armored targets due to numerous stackable buffs that aren't represented on the warscroll. Math gives us an insight, but is far from the full truth. 

- Buffing isn't the only factor to consider, there's also debuffs. Many armies have the ability to debuff stats or outright deny abilities that other armies will use, and it's important to consider that when looking at base stats, they will be altered for better or worse. Tzeentch is hard to play against because of it's strong shooting, magic, and ability to provide very strong debuffs. Expect to have units debuffed or have their abilities nullified within our army. 

- Playtesting is very important, and I absolutely agree that it is necessary to test before making any final decisions. The biggest challenge with playtesting however, is that sometimes it's in a controlled environment and is unable to account for many different factors. Usually, GW would use tournament data, but because of the past year's turbulence many important events were cancelled. The winter FAQ Should have helped alleviate the many problems that BoC and Sylvaneth have (both under preforming armies). The FAQ brought very little change and players were upset; GW's reasoning was that there was little to no tournament data to use as a base for the changes. 

With this considered, my opinions are very mixed. As a mortals player, I have to say I am let down, and I do believe there needs to be some reasonable point adjustments based on the factors I've included above, but there are a couple mortal units that stand out. However, Daemon players are going to be happy with what they've received, and there will be competitive builds using Daemon units. I've hid the content because it's a lot, but it essentially outlines my feelings towards the release. This is what I've gathered with some careful analysis over the past couple of days: 

Spoiler

 

Units/Design that is strong or well-made:

- Most of the Daemon units are very solid and can be used effectively. The Locus of Diversion (prevents pile ins), mixed with the ability to generate additional attacks on 6s, makes Daemons of Slaanesh a force to be reckoned with. Add in battalions, subfactions, and WTs, etc. and Daemon players are going to be very happy. Especially considering their spell lore is still decent and very much useable. 

- Depravity generation is strong, and one can easily generate enough points to summon in big units of Daemonettes, Fiends, Daemon heroines, KoS, or whatever you fancy 

- Summoning is powerful (even if it means only summoning once per turn), and I guarantee that our summoning mechanic is easily going to be a main focus in competitive play; especially considering how powerful Daemon units are 

- Good support for our heroes 

- Powerful endless spells 

- Sigvald and Glutos are powerful heroes that will also be seeing the tabletop, both in casual and at a tournament level. Especially the Lord of Gluttony and his buffs/debuffs; Sigvald can target whatever you want removed. Just be careful, as he only  has a movement of 6 inches and 6 wounds.

- Slickblades are good. The biggest problem with Slickblades is that they're too fast, which is ironic because that's supposed to be their strength. They're not going to be receiving any buffs from most heroes or abilities because very likely they'll be out of range, and their +5 save makes them weak against shooting and prolonged combat; their low bravery also means they're weak to battleshock. The best unit to bring along will be the Bladebringer for the reroll 1's to hit spell. Thankfully, being able to cause mortal wounds on 6's while generating an additional attack will make them good at outflanking or hitting vulnerable targets; they might need a small point decrease but they're overall decent at being an independent outflank unit; especially considering they're 4 wounds and very fast. The battalion is very costly and will require you to build an army around using it, and doesn't really give a good benefit for what you need to invest. It's better to take them outside the battalion. 

- Blissbarbs also have a lot of potential. They are very expensive, but after reconsideration I can see why. Shooting is a luxury, and using Blissbarbs will require us to build an army around using them. Taking small units of 11 each won't do us any good. Instead, the best way to utilize them would be to take them in a max squad of 33 in the Depraved Carnival battalion, and taking a smaller one or two squads on the side. They would throw out a minimum of 66 shots, and with allegiance abilities will allows us to generate attacks, and you can snipe Katakros, Lord Kroak, or anything you feel will cause you trouble; especially considering you'll be able to shoot in the hero phase. It's expensive and requires us to screen with Daemons, but it can work well if the army is strategically built. Maybe a small point drop on them is necessary, but with summoning, this has the potential to kick a lot of butt. Just watch out for shooting and flanking units, as Blissbarbs will drop like flies. The OBR catapult will absolutely obliterate this unit, and there's little you can to to stop it. 

Units/Design that probably will need point adjustment or buffs:

- Painbringers have a good defense, can do decent damage and provide some needed buffs to mortals, but they're slow, thus vulnerable to shooting and mortal wounds. In combat they'll shine, but they're easy to snipe at five wounds. A point drop to the range of 100-120 would be far more reasonable.

- Shardspeakers have the same issue as Painbringers, but more so. A +5 save and 6 inches movement is not good, especially considering you have to be very close to use her abilities. She needs to be screened, and that won't prevent her from being sniped. Her abilities are also not guaranteed, and although they won't use command points, they're somewhat hard to pull off. 

- Painbringers suffer from the same issues above: slow and overpriced. Very vulnerable to shooting and mortal wounds, and don't have a lot of attacks; the mortal wound output and additional attacks from 6s don't help much. The reroll to save is nice, but against rend which is increasingly common in todays meta, the 150 point price tag is going to make it a challenge for them to earn their points back. The battalion for them and the Twinsouls is also lackluster: +1 to wound on a charge isn't consistent and will only help the first round of combat. A decrease in to 100-120 point on their warscroll is far more reasonable. 

- Twinsouls suffer from the same issues as painbringers, and although they may have higher damage output, the lack of rend makes them better against chaff. They're not bad, just overpriced by a lot. 170 points for a 5 man 2 wound unit? They're so easy to snipe and kill with anything you throw at them. There have been comparisons to Chosen, but Chosen have the ability to provide a fantastic buff to StD units around them, and are to be used as support units for blocks of marauders/chaos warriors around them. Twinsouls are designed to cause damage, and don't provide synergy buffs. Best use is with something screening them to prevent retaliation. They'd be far more reasonable at 140-150 points. 

- The Masque and Shalaxi are weak, need some point reductions to make them attractive 

Units/Design that will need a rework or decent point adjustment:

- Mortal spell lore is just bad, and really needs to be re-examined. I don't see any reason to take or use any of the spells listed. 

- Slaangor Fiendbloods: I truly believe they are the worst unit in the game. Low damage potential for their point cost, low survivability, and little to no synergy within the book or outside armies. Unlike the Painbringers/Twinsouls that at least get a battalion, the fiendbloods have none! They offer no synergy with BoC because lack of keywords, and also need to footslog across the board like every other infantry unit in the game. They're a  waste of 140 points both in casual and competitive; the only redeeming factor is that they are three wounds and will at least generate six depravity points once they're predictably destroyed. My recommendation? Huge point decrease, or big bonuses/changes to their warscroll. Even with buffs from both the painbringer and shardspeaker they're going to underperform. 

 

I apologize for the long post, there's just a lot to unpack. Overall, I just think we need some decent point decreases within a good portion of the mortal range, and maybe a few of the Daemons as well. The only unit I feel needs a total rework/massive decrease is the Fiendbloods because of how little they contribute to the army.  Regarding emailing GW, I do think a concrete and respectful email is perfectly ok because as mentioned, point decreases would really make these units shine a lot more; the biggest concern is what to do with the Fiendbloods. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by AngryPanda

[Poryague]

Almost forgot about the everchosen book there are additional modifiers for each host. Some of those may be useful. Like invaders command ability to get +1 to save in combat once per turn and the ability to come in from a board edge.

God's seeker command ability of if you charge unmodified 6 to save rolls in combat kicks back a mortal wound.

Pretenders ca ignore the first 2 wounds in combat once per turn

Edited February 15, 2021 by Poryague

[Enoby]

A bit of a half formed idea for a tanky list in Slaanesh:

Invaders Host (Lurid haze) 

90 Exalted hero of chaos (someone has to stand around headbutting the fane for daemons)

150pts Lord of Pain (general) with the Lurid artefact and command trait

150pts Lord of Pain with rod of misrule 

200pts Syll'Esske (general, also I feel I spell this name differently each time) 

340pts 10 Twin Souls

340pts 10 Twin Souls

340 pts 10 Twin Souls 

160(?) for the Syberite Battalion

160(?) for the nobles Battalion

50 extra CP

87 wounds

1980pts

Hopefully we'll start the game with 5 CP (possibly six) and two drops, and will generate about 3 a turn.

The hope is to use a mixture of the Lurid Haze's +1 to save, 5++ on the Syberites, and battleshock immunity from Syll'Esske to keep everything around and summon in more units over time. It's very CP heavy, but not all CP need to be used at once, and RRs will be provided on a need to basis. 

Alternatively, scrap the nobles battalion for either another LoP (though I don't think you'll need one) or a Shardspeaker for some more casting. 

If they have the 5++ save and the 3+ save, a unit of 6 charging Morrsarr Guard do about 8 damage, killing 4 of the 10. 

In addition, with their buffed save, unbuffed Archaon does about 7 and a bit damage against them, killing 3 and a bit of the 10. 

The list would struggle to do damage against high saves (3+ or better), so it may be worth turning one of the Twin Souls unit into a Painbringer unit. Painbringers with a 3+ rr is very nice, but lacks MW protection and does less damage.

Hopefully with Syll'Esske, they would lost nothing to battleshock and they would generate a lot of DP. 

Probably wouldn't bother with teleporting unless the opponent has left a massive defensive hole. or I think I can tie up the army 

 

[Overread]

I think the problem with trying to make the army "mortals or demons" is that if you're going to have summoning and if you're going to bake some of that cost into the points, then the mortals will always appear overcosted because they are expected to summon up demons to bolster their points. Far as I can tell the only way to counter that would be to give mortals alone a 2 point cost, one for demon armies and one for a mortals only army. However that in itself doubles the workload to balance the army and can create complications of its own, including the fact that the non-demon summoning force might appear more attractive simply because you can put more models down to start with. 

Another option would be to give models two costs, but only apply one if they are taken as allies in another army. That opens up the option for mortal players to build a Slaves to Darkness army and splice in the allied hedonite models for flavour. This balances out the fact that the mortal units won't be joining a summoning force, but doesn't end up dividing your hedonite army into two halves. 

A third option is to use hedonite models as counts-as in a Slaves to Darkness army. Eg playing with Chaos Warriors but using the Hedonite models instead of the Chaos Warrior model. Which would allow you to use more Hedonite models visually since, as allies, you're capped to a  limited number of points. 

[Jaskier]

Glad to see some here are waking up to how useful Syll'Esske is now. An 18" Battleshock immunity bubble is pretty much tailor made for mortal-heavy lists, particularly for Slickblades. The tournament build I'm planning out features them in Invaders (the best place by far to play Syll'Esske) with a CP farm (Rod of Misrule + Glory Hog) to fund theirs and a Keepers' command abilities.

Also, yes, can we please hold off on sending rules feedback about an army none of us have actually played any proper games or really got to grips with yet? If the people who complained about Seraphon and KO at release (and before you try to change history, there were loads) did the same, what kind of message would that have sent to GW? Look where those armies are now. Our faction mechanics have been completely redesigned, and our units are obviously priced with the summoning changes in mind. Summoning is Slaanesh' main mechanic, whether we like it or not, so trying to argue that our units shouldn't be priced with it in mind is just foolhardy. 

You want my advice, having seen this kind of pessimism for every single new book GW has released for the past 10 years I've been playing competitively? Wait. Play a bunch of games. Try things. You'll find - as is almost always the case - that most of your pessimism is unjustified. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

7 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Glad to see some here are waking up to how useful Syll'Esske is now. An 18" Battleshock immunity bubble is pretty much tailor made for mortal-heavy lists, particularly for Slickblades. The tournament build I'm planning out features them in Invaders (the best place by far to play Syll'Esske) with a CP farm (Rod of Misrule + Glory Hog) to fund theirs and a Keepers' command abilities.

 

Yeah, the more I look at it, the better Syll'Esske seems. 200 points for a 18" battleshock bubble that guarantees my depravity? Yes please. They're not even that bad in combat. 

[Poryague]

32 minutes ago, Enoby said:

A bit of a half formed idea for a tanky list in Slaanesh:

Invaders Host (Lurid haze) 

90 Exalted hero of chaos (someone has to stand around headbutting the fane for daemons)

150pts Lord of Pain (general) with the Lurid artefact and command trait

150pts Lord of Pain with rod of misrule 

200pts Syll'Esske (general, also I feel I spell this name differently each time) 

340pts 10 Twin Souls

340pts 10 Twin Souls

340 pts 10 Twin Souls 

160(?) for the Syberite Battalion

160(?) for the nobles Battalion

50 extra CP

87 wounds

1980pts

Hopefully we'll start the game with 5 CP (possibly six) and two drops, and will generate about 3 a turn.

The hope is to use a mixture of the Lurid Haze's +1 to save, 5++ on the Syberites, and battleshock immunity from Syll'Esske to keep everything around and summon in more units over time. It's very CP heavy, but not all CP need to be used at once, and RRs will be provided on a need to basis. 

Alternatively, scrap the nobles battalion for either another LoP (though I don't think you'll need one) or a Shardspeaker for some more casting. 

If they have the 5++ save and the 3+ save, a unit of 6 charging Morrsarr Guard do about 8 damage, killing 4 of the 10. 

In addition, with their buffed save, unbuffed Archaon does about 7 and a bit damage against them, killing 3 and a bit of the 10. 

The list would struggle to do damage against high saves (3+ or better), so it may be worth turning one of the Twin Souls unit into a Painbringer unit. Painbringers with a 3+ rr is very nice, but lacks MW protection and does less damage.

Hopefully with Syll'Esske, they would lost nothing to battleshock and they would generate a lot of DP. 

Probably wouldn't bother with teleporting unless the opponent has left a massive defensive hole. or I think I can tie up the army 

 

This the best way to get shardspeaker within range. Also get glutos across the board quick. If you run glutos with fiends well they can just appear in range and now you have a debuff on that makes -2 to hit fiends unit in your enemies face as well as debuff to enemy spell casts. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Poryague

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

22 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

You want my advice, having seen this kind of pessimism for every single new book GW has released for the past 10 years I've been playing competitively? Wait. Play a bunch of games. Try things. You'll find - as is almost always the case - that most of your pessimism is unjustified. 

The period of mourning that follows initial rules leaks is as inevitable as the dawn

[Rivener]

39 minutes ago, Jaskier said:Our faction mechanics have been completely redesigned, and our units are obviously priced with the summoning changes in mind. Summoning is Slaanesh' main mechanic, whether we like it or not, so trying to argue that our units shouldn't be priced with it in mind is just foolhardy. 

The issue remains that Hedonite warscrolls cannot be deliberately overpriced with summoning in mind. StD and BoC marked units can, and will, be used in their stead. The only way forward is getting Hedonite warscrolls into a condition where they are competitive with existing depravity alternatives.

[Jaskier]

49 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, the more I look at it, the better Syll'Esske seems. 200 points for a 18" battleshock bubble that guarantees my depravity? Yes please. They're not even that bad in combat. 

Exactly; they're more than twice as good in combat than they used to be because they got rid of the silly split activation which made them a horrible target for Excess of Violence. Now with the new Locus they can easily get their new +1 to hit and wound and just smack things silly with all their attacks twice over. I'm over the moon with their changes. 

@Rivener those units also don't get Euphoric Killers, Locus or any of the amazing Hedonite-keyword synergies in the book. Ergo, yes, they can overprice certain units relative to others because not doing so would lead to obvious imbalances once supporting abilities and allegiance rules are taken into account. Chaos Warriors are the tankiest unit we can get for the points, but they also have horrible damage output. They're good for DP generation (I'm running at least 15 in many of my lists) and filling an anvil role, but at some point you still have to kill stuff and our Hedonite units all do it much better for the points. This is why diverse lists - which are anathema to our old book - will be key, and why focusing on synergies when building your list is critical. Syll'Esske for example goes from a poor to a great choice depending on how you structure your list. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jaskier

[Rivener]

The only notable offensive buffs in the army are +1 to-hit (dark delusions), +1 to-wound in combat (Shardspeaker), and RR1’s to-hit, which can be done with warscroll daemon hero spells.
They’re all keyword agnostic, so Marauders, Depraved Bestigors, Gors, Bullgors, Chosen, and yes, Chaos Warriors, lose exploding 6’s but the difference simply isn’t great enough to make up for the existing warscroll cost imbalances.

Edit: Full rerolls to-hit are huge too, and are provided by the Lord of Pain which is key worded to Hedonite Mortals. StD get full rerolls to-hit and to-wound, though, with Warshrines and Sorcerers.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Rivener