AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[nissefika]

 I have mathhammer almost all warscrolls here is what i have learnd. 

Sigvald has a low output 

Shardslash (5A) 4.63 Dpp= 0,0178  Shardslash (7A) 6.48 Dpp= 0,0249  Shardslash (12A) 11.12 Dpp= 0,0427

SLICKBLADE SEEKERS Dpp= 0,0548 clear winner. 

BLISSBARB SEEKER  Total Dpp= 0,0489 Range Dpp = 0,296 this is really good, I also play KH and only thunders (when they spend there gold) beat them. Ironclad has range Dpp =0,0221 and Endrinriggers has range Dpp = 0,0233 

Blissbarb Archers also beat most of KH, Total Dpp= 0,0380 Range Dpp = 0,0278

Daemonettes is also good unit, with Dpp= 0,0423, this make all other foot slaanesh melee unit uintresting and i dont see why i would buy SYMBARESH or Myrmidesh. And what the hell happen to Slaangors, why did they i even relesee this unit. 

Hellriders is not very good but i think one or two units with 5 maybe working as they are fast, and cheaper then other seekers with a 4 save. but they are two expansiv for building arme around them. 

I dont realy see why i would play with a Keeper of Secrets they have Dpp= 0,0244, sure C-A but they need other (WW12") unit to activet and I feel that is gooing to be hard but I could be wrong. 

For heroes i feel Exalted Charot is the best option. its hard to math that unit but i end up with Dpp= 0,0396. May be lord of pain to gets Slick- seeker to reroll hits. 

My rule in this meta is if you cant get atleast 1 plus to cast it is pointless to take units that is 100% wizards. So i dont think I am going to buy any wizards.

The strong point in the arme is DP so at the moment I am planing to max out that. So am I guessing I need choas warriors? is that best why I feel that ruing  

*Sorry for repeting some of the points above and all numbers here could be wrong or some atleast. 

[Rivener]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

I strongly advise against emailing GW without any actual play experience. If you take the time to test and send them thoughtful and well detailed feedback there is a good chance they will listen.

Some of you may not know me, so I'd like to point to one of my older posts:

I can't give a lot of detail, but my involvement has increased since then and I can say with a great deal of confidence that the team is very open to and is eager to receive well thought out feedback.

............

No other battletome has summoning potential that even comes close to what Hedonites can do. I acknowledge that not everyone may want to play a summoning army, but for better or worse that is what Hedonites are right now. No other faction can realistically summon 1000 points of reinforcements in a game like Slaanesh can, and as a result the warscrolls must be overcosted to compensate for the summons.

............

Crunching the numbers shows clearly that some of the warscrolls are not good enough compared to other options within the faction. Slaangors and Hellstriders are probably the most obvious culprit. I'll definitely be passing along this feedback quickly because it's clearly not an external balance problem.

This is a fantastic thing to hear, and I appreciate your coming on the thread to lend your insight. 

My fear is that the logic to deliberately overcost the warscrolls is not appropriate given that there are many, cheaper, sources of depravity. I appreciate the challenge; you cannot overprice the warscrolls as you’ll also need to overprice StD, BoC, and allied warscrolls. Obviously you can’t do that as it would then impact other armies.

The line is a thin one to walk, I readily admit. Yet I think it’s evident that there are some warscrolls, not all, but some, that are not walking that line. 

[Poryague]

Save	Bullgor twin axe	Bullgor great axe	Slangor	Slangor charge
2+	4.31	4.83	2.22	3.11
3+	5.86	6.25	3.19	4.44
4+	7.41	7.67	4.15	5.78
5+	8.95	9.08	5.11	7.11
6+	10.5	9.33	5.78	8
-	10.75	9.58	5.78	8

 

This is bullgors vs slangor and slangor is using euphoric killers.  Bullgors are a shock troop I don't know what slangor is doing. 

Solutions.

1. Increase claw rend or damage maybe both. 

2. The points come down to maybe 110 maybe 100.

[The Red King]

As a BoC dabbler, bullgor aren't even that good (generally you have to find SOME outside buffs to make them good) in a faction that already struggles. So if you cant compare favorably to bullgors you're in trouble.

[Poryague]

Chaos sorcer is 110

Shardspeaker is 150

They both are force multipliers but 1 is much worse then thee other. 

Change shard to buff hour units with the spell and Ability or the ability buff our units and the spell range is increased to 18. 

[Poryague]

2 minutes ago, The Red King said:

As a BoC dabbler, bullgor aren't even that good (generally you have to find SOME outside buffs to make them good) in a faction that already struggles. So if you cant compare favorably to bullgors you're in trouble.

The bullgor on there own are significantly stronger then slangor using euphoric killers and there charge mechanic. You better off taking bullgors they seem to fill the same roll better. 

[SorryLizard]

I would note that 'we are the only faction able to realistically summon 1000pts' and 'artificially increase the points costs to account for summoning' becomes mildly circular. Higher points costs means less summoning needed to reach 1000pts afterall

I did like the Fomoroid Crusher + Spawn thing people were talking about.

Get a few spawn to stand near a piece of terrain at the back of the board. Fomoroid Crusher stands near the terrain and hits it with the ability. The spawn take a few wounds. Generate depravity. Repeat each turn so you get a healthy Depravity flow for a few turns. Messes with the 'overpricing in book units' balancing but is still a funny piece of tech in the backpocket.

[uratourist]

Would Sigvald then not be a worthwhile first purchase? I was between him, the shardspeaker, and the archers

[Klamm]

I appreciate that the overcosting of units might be offset by summoning potential, though it sucks for people who were planning mortal armies only. 

What I would like to see (forlorn wishlisting here) is changing depravity into something akin to a Khorne blood tithe system, where you can spend it on summons or bonuses. That way you're either making up for expensive units with additional summons or getting buffs that will allow them to fight as well as the cost implies. 

I'm cool with a mid-tier army I just don't wanna be forced to do Daemons lol. 

 

[Overread]

3 minutes ago, Klamm said:

I'm cool with a mid-tier army I just don't wanna be forced to do Daemons lol. 

Honestly I think avoiding demons means going for a Slaves to Darkness army with allies rather than going for one of the dedicated god armies. I'd always imagine that the dedicated god armies are nearly always going to want to bring some demons along. Perhaps in the future after many more models are added they'll be able to split in a more effective manner along those lines. Potentially, depends if GW sees that vision or if they intend you to stick with mixed mortal and demonic forces in them.

[Poryague]

Save	Auralan sentinel 18in 120p	Auralan sentinel 120p 36in	Auralan sentinel 18in 120p 5+mw	Auralan sentinel 120p 36in 5+mw
2+	2.5	2.22	3.89	3.61
3+	2.92	2.5	4.17	3.75
4+	3.33	2.78	4.44	3.89
5+	3.75	3.06	4.72	4.03
6+	4.17	3.33	5	4.17
-	4.17	3.33	5	4.17

 

 

Save	Blood stalkers 24in140p	Namarti 18in 120	Namarti 9in 120	Skinks 120p 16in
2+	2.78	0.42	1.25	0.37
3+	3.33	0.83	2.5	0.74
4+	3.89	1.25	3.75	1.11
5+	4.44	1.67	5	1.48
6+	5	2.08	6.25	1.85
-	5	2.5	7.5	2.22

 

 

Save	Blissbarb 160 18in	Blissbarb seeker 180 18in copy
2+	2.22	2.08
3+	3.33	2.5
4+	4.44	2.92
5+	5.56	3.33
6+	6.67	3.75
-	6.67	3.75

Damge wise compared to some other archers the foot bows are ok. Far as armor our foot bows are the only one who can't get a 5+ save. Only ours in this list run and shoot.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Poryague

[Yoid]

49 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Chaos sorcer is 110

Shardspeaker is 150

They both are force multipliers but 1 is much worse then thee other. 

Change shard to buff hour units with the spell and Ability or the ability buff our units and the spell range is increased to 18. 

If im not mistaken Chaos Sorcerer Lord buff an ally (single ally) Shardspeaker debuff an enemy (Potentially multiple units on your side buff). Shardspeaker got more survability too as the save increase from 5+ to 3+ when you cast a spell. (You can count that as having some extra wounds)

I really like the Shardpeaker, im sure if GW make her buff an ally it would be mortal only. But as it is you can buff Daemons too. You can debuff an enemy unit with Viceleader/Bladebringer and Shardspeaker to have your whole army rr1s and +1 to wound and -1 to be wounded by it. That is huge value. (Syll'Esske also work for the rr1s)

[Poryague]

7 minutes ago, Yoid said:

If im not mistaken Chaos Sorcerer Lord buff an ally (single ally) Shardspeaker debuff an enemy (Potentially multiple units on your side buff). Shardspeaker got more survability too as the save increase from 5+ to 3+ when you cast a spell. (You can count that as having some extra wounds)

I really like the Shardpeaker, im sure if GW make her buff an ally it would be mortal only. But as it is you can buff Daemons too. You can debuff an enemy unit with Viceleader/Bladebringer and Shardspeaker to have your whole army rr1s and +1 to wound and -1 to be wounded by it. That is huge value. (Syll'Esske also work for the rr1s)

Sorcerer lord is a 4+ all the time. So I would say on average sorcerer lord is more survivable.  

Even if she can tag a single unit with the debuff you have to be dangerously close. Range is the issue. 

Yes sorcerer lord buff mortals only but the buffs are strong. Point at a unit rr all saves the spell rr hit and wounds. Is much stronger then a +1 to w or -1 to w. Also there is a 40 point gap. So targeting 1 hedonite unit should be OK 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Poryague

[umpac]

17 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Damge wise compared to some other archers the foot bows are ok. Far as armor our foot bows are the only one who can't get a 5+ save. Only ours in this list run and shoot.

The big difference is in the support. Unbuffed skinks are a joke, but skinks are WAY better shooting than Blissbards because they can have +1 to hit, proccing mortals and shooting in the enemy charge phase. Blood stalkers are meh until they start shooting twice. Blissbards only have a battalion to buff them, and while a free shot goes a long way, 450pt character tax is a deal breaker.

[Yoid]

2 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Sorcerer lord is a 4+ all the time. So I would say on average sorcerer lord is more survivable.  

Even if she can tag a single unit with the debuff you have to be dangerously close. Range is the issue. 

Yes sorcerer lord buff mortals only but the buffs are strong. Point at a unit rr all saves the spell rr hit and wounds. Is much stronger then a +1 to w or -1 to w. Also there is a 40 point gap. So targeting 1 hedonite unit should be OK 

Im still seeing it as fair. Sorcerer Lord buff different units that need those buffs to really shine. Meanwhile Sharspeaker can buff a unit of 30 Daemonettes + a Keeper as an example. Both will do a good job with +1 to wound and -1 to be wounded. Daemonettes with exploding 6s into 3 hits and 3+ to wound are amazing blenders, the other nearby unit like a KoS getting the buff too is a nice addition.

Yes Shardspeaker is slow and got short range, that is her weak spot. She can run every turn anyway as nor the spell or ability is negated while runing.

Im fine with Shardspeaker having down-sides and up-sides. Maybe she goes down in points with time but i still like her ahs she is now.

If you want the Chaos Sorcerer Lord so much you can play a heavy STD list, no euphoric killers to you, but better DP generation in the point per model value. Im not saying he is bad or anything, im saying they do two different things for they both different armies that seems similarly powerful in my mind once you add up everything.

[Benkei]

Somehow I don't remember the fluff where the elegant and decadent warriors of Slaanesh are just average but make up for it summoning demons. Sad to see Sigvald being mediocre again but happy our Archers and Slickblades are at least good if expensive af

[Silphid]

But S2D sorceror only buffs S2D units. So adding such a sorceror in an otherwise hedonite list is pointless, isn’t it? Or am I not getting something?

Edited February 14, 2021 by Silphid

[Enoby]

54 minutes ago, uratourist said:

Would Sigvald then not be a worthwhile first purchase? I was between him, the shardspeaker, and the archers

Well he's the best looking unit in the game, and I think he performs well

[Grimrock]

Ok, second game down. I tried this list out with godseekers:

Keeper
- retreat/charge trait
- Cameo of the Dark Prince (illegal! forgot to remove the second artifact when I tweaked the list)
Contorted Epitome
- Enrapturing Circlet (no retreats for enemies in 3")
The Masque

3x Blissbarbs
30 daemonettes
2x Slickblades

Chronomatic Cogs

I was up against a blightking heavy nurgle army. 3 units of 5 kings, 1 unit of 20, the Glottkin, Gutrot Spume, Lord of Blights, Harbinger, all in a Blight Cyst. Also an Aethervoid Pendulum and extra command point. Some notes:

1. Despite the smaller unit count of the opponent and generally higher resilience the depravity flowed pretty well. Turn 3 I summoned 30 more daemonettes and I had 18 more points going into turn 4. This was assisted greatly by having the keeper as my general with the retreat and charge trait giving me multiple d3+1 points. 
2. The new locus combined with the enrapturing circlet (no retreating) was extremely nasty. On turn 2 the big unit of blight kings were spread out in a line in the middle after killing off 2 units of blissbarbs set up as a screen. I managed to tag the unit with the keeper on one side and the epitome in the middle. The locus went off locking them in place and I killed a few with the keeper. Nurgle had to kill off the middle kings and intentionally lose half the unit in the battle shock phase in order to get 3" away from the epitome and prevent the whole unit from being frozen in place by the circlet on their turn. If they had lost one less king the unit would have been completely useless the next turn.
3. A keeper getting permanent +1 to hit off of the fane is fantastic. Seems obvious but it just felt way better all game. Also the locus makes them so annoying to deal with. I think they're the best general for godseekers.
4. Bravery 6 on the slickblades suuuucks. They do a solid damage, but multiple times I lost models I couldn't afford to lose due to a battle shock test. I honestly think chaos knights might be a better pick overall, even if it's just for the 2 extra bravery.
5. Blissbarbs were great again. Concentrating fire did a good chunk of damage and it's just so refreshing to be able to do something in the shooting phase.
6. Despite all the positive points, slaanesh felt behind pretty much all game. There were a couple moments where there was a chance, like summoning 30 daemonettes to charge and steal a back line objective, but even with the summoning they were just ground under by the nurgle army. Never enough models. Had Nurgle gotten even one double turn it would have been totally over.
7. We're really lacking a decent screening unit. I had to use 2 units of blissbarbs, but at 160 points they're too valuable to use like that. I wonder if allying in some Iron Golems from S2D might be a good idea, but the list is super tight for points. 
8. I'm finding I generally use most of my command points to auto pass bravery to ensure I get the depravity out of units
9. Again, only being able to summon once per turn is really tough. If I could have summoned two units on turn 4 I might have been able to turn the game around, but with only a single unit I just couldn't get enough done. For an army that seems to be built around summoning it's a really frustrating restriction.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Grimrock

[Geoffreyvt]

Hi followers of slaanesh! 

I am looking towards investing in a new army and was seriously interested in the HoS, really LOVE the new mortals and their Persian vibe. So after reading the mixed reception of the new codex in this forum, I was wondering if you could help me out. 

I always did like the mortal side of chaos, and I was wondering if it is possible to play a mortal HoS army without much summoning involved. The summoning I would play around is putting something big on the field, a keeper, instead of more small deamons, like 30 deamonettes. The idea is that the mortals did cause enough satisfaction (In doing/taking damage), that a big chaos spawn appears. 

So, in this theme. Do you think it can work? Focusing on the mortals to build an army and the solely summoning to be done will be bigger monsters? 

Or do you reckon it wouldn't be playable? 

If not, I will probably look into DoK, since I love their anesthetic as well. 

[azdimy]

10 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Ok, second game down. I tried this list out with godseekers:

Keeper
- retreat/charge trait
- Cameo of the Dark Prince
Contorted Epitome
- Enrapturing Circlet (no retreats for enemies in 3"
The Masque

3x Blissbarbs
30 daemonettes
2x Slickblades

Chronomatic Cogs

What battallion did you run to get that second artefact?

[Are Verlo]

Fist up a disclaimer: as a non-native speaker, plese excuse the stale writing.

Well I think folks are dismissing the one, two (or even three) things the Slaangors have going for them.

First up: they have range 2" on all their attacks and come with 40mm bases. That means it fairly easy to get a them to "fight in ranks". That means they will be able to coordinate their charges with other units. E.G its so easy to get 2x 3 slaangors and a chariot to engage the same target at a narrow front. 

 

The second, and in my eyes the most important advantage they have over the bullgors is the way their 2" reach works with the new locus of diversion. If they (the slaangors) engage a unit with reach 1", the fiendbloods can simply not be attacked back because of the "no pile-ins".

 

Lastly, as a slight bonus, a big herd of Slaangors can deal quite a few mortal wounds to hero hanging near a charget unit. If the Slaangors get a single model within 3" of the hero during charge or pile-in. they can roll for obsessive violence for the whole unit, not just the models within 3" of the hero and allocate the wounds to the hero, while using their attacks to target a different unit.

 

The Slaangors are a unit that rewards tactical movement and positioning. So I´ll happily give them a go 🙂

[Grimrock]

5 minutes ago, azdimy said:

What battallion did you run to get that second artefact?

Ah shoot,  I had a seeker cavalcade in a different version of the list but dropped it for more blissbarbs. Of course I forgot to remove the second artefact while I was at it. Well, the points still stand I guess. I probably would have dropped the cameo off the keeper and just fed wounds into the fane instead. Good catch!

Edited February 14, 2021 by Grimrock

[Klamm]

13 minutes ago, Geoffreyvt said:

If not, I will probably look into DoK, since I love their anesthetic as well. 

I didn't know Morathi were providing anaesthetic, the god of murder is getting soft under new management. 

Sorry, seriously, I'm also in the camp of wanting to make mortal heavy, summon light Slaanesh work. There are some decent mortal units but are maybe expensive for what they do and you have limited buffing capabilities compared to DoK. From the mathhammer people are doing, it looks like Slickblade Seekers are an alright attacking unit. Shardspeaker has some useful abilities, and Blissbard Archers are decent battleline (though their main strength is generating depravity). So you could definitely make a list out of mortals, I'm gonna do that. Dipping into Slaves to Darkness is valid, you won't benefit from euphoric killers but you can get some survivable units. 

30 Daemonettes is generally going to be better for objectives than a Keeper but they are good fighters with solid command abilities so yeah, don't see why not.  Oh btw for now ignore Slaangors, they're not good. Maybe one day.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Klamm

[Poryague]

35 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Im still seeing it as fair. Sorcerer Lord buff different units that need those buffs to really shine. Meanwhile Sharspeaker can buff a unit of 30 Daemonettes + a Keeper as an example. Both will do a good job with +1 to wound and -1 to be wounded. Daemonettes with exploding 6s into 3 hits and 3+ to wound are amazing blenders, the other nearby unit like a KoS getting the buff too is a nice addition.

Yes Shardspeaker is slow and got short range, that is her weak spot. She can run every turn anyway as nor the spell or ability is negated while runing.

Im fine with Shardspeaker having down-sides and up-sides. Maybe she goes down in points with time but i still like her ahs she is now.

If you want the Chaos Sorcerer Lord so much you can play a heavy STD list, no euphoric killers to you, but better DP generation in the point per model value. Im not saying he is bad or anything, im saying they do two different things for they both different armies that seems similarly powerful in my mind once you add up everything.

It's not about wanting the sorcerer lord it's about the purpose of the piece. They both support pieces. With the way the shard works it would have to come down in points significantly to make more sense. 

Summoning is just OK its nothing to be supper excited about. Your not seeing stuff summoned until probably round 3 unless you lean into it. Only 1 unit is showing up a turn once you have dp its more strategic now which is good and a much better play experience. It seems some units are being pointed based off of the old allegiance abilities.