AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

I'm still trying to work out how his - ah - thigh cape works! I can only assume he never spreads his legs that wide in battle.

(yes yes I feel dirty typing that)

Who knows? I mean, this setup must give him great manoeuvrability and freedom!

[Yoid]

Slickblades deal around 10 wounds vs 4+ save (counting both exploding 6s and MW on 6s) you can round it up to 11 wound being extremely picky with the decimals, but that's it. They hit quite vanila compared to other units in the same price range without any extra tankiness. I gues you can count the 20 wounds as being tanky nowadays.

Blissbarb Seekers give you same tankines for less points.

I can see Slickblades performing well in a seeker cavalcade to always strike first with the pile in shenanigan, but they are not really that good statwise.

The big winner for me are Daemonettes, same cost as ever, same stats as ever, but now generate DP. Just think on that big blobs of cheap 30 Daemonettes with exploding 6s into 3 hits and sharkspeakers giving +1 to wound. Once you hit 12 DP you may summon another blob of 30 if you need to refill the troops or summon a Keeper if your troops are still healthy to instantly double fight. This seems like an incredible cost-efficient list to do.

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Slickblades deal around 10 wounds vs 4+ save (counting both exploding 6s and MW on 6s) you can round it up to 11 wound being extremely picky with the decimals, but that's it. They hit quite vanila compared to other units in the same price range without any extra tankiness. I gues you can count the 20 wounds as being tanky nowadays.

I think 10 wounds isn't too bad, esp when compared to the other things they can do with the battalion - they do about 2 more damage than Eltharion (even when he charges), but are much faster and less susceptible to spells plus can get access to better ASF. 

I think they're one of the units I'm most excited to try the more I look at them - lots of cheeky combos I think. 

[Fyrenn]

 

6 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

Who knows? I mean, this setup must give him great manoeuvrability and freedom!

I mean, i think it's sound.  looks like the 'cape' has a front and back. from the front it goes between his legs, so no matter how he stretches, his front bits are covered.  He loves excess, but not THAT much excess... apparently.

[Gistradagis]

Just now, Fyrenn said:

 

I mean, i think it's sound.  looks like the 'cape' has a front and back. from the front it goes between his legs, so no matter how he stretches, his front bits are covered.  He loves excess, but not THAT much excess... apparently.

He leaves some things up to imagination, which sometimes exceeds reality :^)

[Neverchosen]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

On the other hand, I think the stats of the units are all workable and it's the price that's throwing people off. Imagine if Painbringers were 100pts for 5, they'd seem a tonne better and I think people would be more upbeat about their rules.

I think we're costed so high as we're paying for our summoning through model cost and they don't want a repeat of 2019 where our summoning was crazy good and just plain unfun. If we try this army out and the summoning is underwhelming or the feel just isn't there, then I think we'll have a much better case to stand on and best thing is that points are by far the easiest thing to fix. I almost think the cost is set at the upper limit and ready to come down, unless we come off as very OP

I remember a similar reaction to FEC were people just looked at the points in a vacuum and complained about the price of the units without considering the regeneration and summoning of the army being balanced against them. If I start up a Hedonite army I will be running the things I like and summoning the rest (I would go archer heavy and grab some Slaangors). Hopefully I will be able to still use my S2D alongside them and I will not care if I loose every match because I will enjoy my little demon worshippers!

Edited February 13, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Enoby]

Just now, Neverchosen said:

I remember a similar reaction to FEC were people just looked at the points in a vacuum and complained about the price of the units without considering the regeneration and summoning of the army being balanced against them. If I start up a Hedonite army I will be running the things I like and summoning the rest (I would go archer heavy and grab some Slaangors). Hopefully I will be able to still use my S2D alongside them and I will not care if I loose every match because I will enjoy my little demon worshippers!

I'm in the same boat really - the meta I'm in is super super casual anyway (Slaves to Darkness without marauders are too strong kind of casual) so I like that we have a wide variety of things including some weak stuff (well, weak without buffs); maybe it's an unpopular opinion, but the ability to play what feels like a complete army without it being powerful is quite nice. By that I mean that, in our old book, unless I had at least one keeper it felt like we were playing half a battletome (missing the biggest parts of our allegiance) and the entire Slaanesh allegiance was basically sixes are extra hits. In this, it feels I can play something relatively easy going and still taking advantage of my full army without feeling like I'm being cheesy or wiping a player off the board with a keeper they can't deal with 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Ah, dang. I'm still going to get and play Slaangors, but I do feel a little sad they seem to be lacking in comparison with other Beasts options. But at the end of the day: Live fast, die young, and leave a horned and crab-handed junkie corpse.

[Neverchosen]

13 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Slaves to Darkness without marauders are too strong kind of casual

Wait my army would do well somewhere? 😮

I think it is ironic that people get so up in arms about power-creep but when a new army is released with balanced and well mediated rules they get even more upset. I can say that Hedonites look downright scary next to my S2D army and would have fun fighting my BCR. Are they as powerful as Lumineth or KO no and for that I am glad. Both of those armies seem really fun and interesting but I am put off by how powerful they are. Am I sad that Slaangor aren't an auto include ruleswise, somewhat but I also look forward to seeing them find their niche in Hedonites and BoC, even if it is redundant or underwhelming. They look fantastic and will find a place in the army even if it is one better served by something else. People tell me to play Archaon or Marauders but I am trying to find points for either some Varanguard or a Soulgrinder because that's what I'd rather build and paint. Also for the Beastclaw army I am just beginning to build, I am getting Gnoblars, not because they are good but because they are cute and funny.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Neverchosen

[JackStreicher]

18 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

Hopefully I will be able to still use my S2D alongside them

Can somebody confirm that the new Allegiance ability won‘t work on S2D anymore?

[Enoby]

Just now, Neverchosen said:

Wait my army would do well somewhere? 😮

I think it is ironic that people get so up in arms about power-creep but when a new army is released with balanced and well mediated rules they get even more upset. I can say that Hedonites look downright scary next to my S2D army and would have fun fighting my BCR. Are they as powerful as Lumineth or KO no and for that I am glad. Both of those armies seem really fun and interesting but I am put off by how powerful they are. Am I sad that Slaangor aren't an auto include ruleswise, somewhat but I also look forward to seeing them find their niche in Hedonites and BoC, even if it is redundant or underwhelming. They look fantastic and will find a place in the army even if it is one better served by something else. People tell me to play Archaon or Marauders but I am trying to find points for either some Varanguard or a Soulgrinder because that's what I'd rather build and paint.

I'm not sure how, but it's the one place I've seen Chaos Chosen be called "super OP" and chaos warriors did something

Yeah, that's how I feel about it too. I'd much rather this than we became a meta faction again and we saw #ShelveSlaanesh again. 

That said, 10 Twinsouls are much stronger than I thought. When they rr hits and wounds (from the battalion), they do an average of 24 damage against a 4+ save. Considering the keeper lets them pile in twice, that is a very scary blender. 32 damage against 5+ save hordes is brutal too.

[Jaskier]

Euphoric Killers is Hedonites only, and quite a few other buffs were changed to only affect Hedonites (such as those provided by Syll'Esske.) It sucks, no doubt, but I can see why they did it - they priced all the units in the book with Depravity in mind, whereas Slaves units obviously can't be because they're accessible by four (or more?) other factions. They made sure the units in this book got all the attention in the form of synergies and buffs to compensate. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Jaskier

[Overread]

Just now, Jaskier said:

Euphoric Killers is Hedonites only, and quite a few other buffs were changed to only affect Hedonites (such as those provided by Syll'Esske.) It sucks, no doubt. 

Yet at the same time I think its the right path for the army in general. It's better that Hedonites stands on its own with its own models and style rather than ends up splicing in big chunks of models from other forces. Now perhaps we might find a way to let allies gain some additional bonuses in time, but I do like how the rules encourage you to use pure army models over allies. It stops a degree of min-maxing within armies that could otherwise plague the game. 

That said I do appreciate the pains for those who have built allied forces up and are now looking at those allies and thinking that they aren't as good as they once were. That said I think good allies before will still be good allies now, just not "as good" as before and perhaps you have to think more about niches and what those allies bring to the army. 

 

Also for some, eps if you've painted/converted, you might easily use some as counts-as for pure hedonite models now and then. 

[Jaskier]

Yeah I edited my post to clarify, but I'm perfectly happy with the direction they went, even if it obviously isn't ideal for Slaves-centric Slaanesh lists. Slaanesh has the only summoning mechanic that is directly tied to how efficient a unit is in terms of both defense and offense (because unlike Khorne, the units need to survive harmed, not be destroyed) which means you could feasibly get into a situation where the Slaves units end up being too good in a Hedonites list despite remaining mediocre elsewhere, i.e. the Grimghast Reaper effect, which would necessitate either changes to the Slaves units themselves (which would adversely affect all the other factions that can use them) or the Slaanesh mechanics (which would adversely affect Slaanesh lists that don't use them.) They did the right thing. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Jaskier

[Yoid]

The problem with Twinsouls is they aren't gonna crack a 3+ save without rend, is too easy to give rerolling 1s to a 3+ save unit with the generic command ability and make them useless. But Twinsouls are incredible (if not the best) damage dealers vs hordes. Is funny how the article in warhammer community said just the opposite of what they are.

Meanwhile Painbringers got the rend and the MWs to deal with 3+ save enemies. I like that they fullfil two distinctly field roles.

Also Painbringers rerolling save is good vs no rend or -1 rend. While Twinsouls 5++ is good vs -2/-3 rend and MWs. They both are distinctly tanky. I can see myself using boths in my casual group. I play mostly vs Nighthaunt and Stormcast, so the Twinsouls wil blend the elusive ghosts while the Painbringers open the cans to smack the Stormcasts.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

13 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

Wait my army would do well somewhere? 😮

I think it is ironic that people get so up in arms about power-creep but when a new army is released with balanced and well mediated rules they get even more upset. I can say that Hedonites look downright scary next to my S2D army and would have fun fighting my BCR. Are they as powerful as Lumineth or KO no and for that I am glad. Both of those armies seem really fun and interesting but I am put off by how powerful they are. Am I sad that Slaangor aren't an auto include ruleswise, somewhat but I also look forward to seeing them find their niche in Hedonites and BoC, even if it is redundant or underwhelming. They look fantastic and will find a place in the army even if it is one better served by something else. People tell me to play Archaon or Marauders but I am trying to find points for either some Varanguard or a Soulgrinder because that's what I'd rather build and paint. Also for the Beastclaw army I am just beginning to build, I am getting Gnoblars, not because they are good but because they are cute and funny.

Get out of my brain.

[Neverchosen]

11 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Get out of my brain.

[Envyus]

I was also thinking what if 3.0 came with a points hike for all armies. If most things rose in price would not a lot of these prices make more sense?

Edited February 13, 2021 by Envyus

[JonnyTheKing]

1 minute ago, Envyus said:

I was also thinking what if 3.0 came with a points hike for all armies

This was my thought until I read the DoK point drops

[Enoby]

Just now, Envyus said:

I was also thinking what if 3.0 came with a points hike for all armies

Tbh, I'd like it if all armies took a leaf from this book and toned themselves down. AoS would be a better place with books where all warscrolls are decent and what matters most is how you play them, rather than spamming one unit over and over. It could well be a new design philosophy that previous power levels of certain units are unsustainable. 

[Grimrock]

51 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I think it is ironic that people get so up in arms about power-creep but when a new army is released with balanced and well mediated rules they get even more upset. 

Well I'm not sure where this book will fall, but I think the problem that upsets people is consistency. If people believed GW was going to turn over a new leaf and kick power creep to the curb then I'm sure pretty much everyone would be ecstatic. The problem is there's always the next broken army book one or two releases later. Usually when a nice, balanced, book comes out it just means people are going to be stuck with an uphill battle for the next few years.  

[Carnith]

There is a lot right with this book... and some really bizarre steps. Slaangors? What happened there? My BoC friend is saying he'd rather play bulls than them. The 20 point different in archers is also an issue for nearly twice the wounds? Something doesn't seem right. Archers feel like they have to go in the shoot twice battalion, but its 3 5 wound heroes, which never bodes well. Also symbaresh, the dude has a whip and there are zero rules for the whip?

Seekers are pretty decent with both having a place. I'd rather spend the extra points for archer seekers to go hold an objective and ping some unit for depravity. Slickblades with some neat double pile in might be good as well with epitome stopping enemies from attacking her until she's attack. 

Not fixing some issues with the daemons, but actually nerfing them and keeping them the same points feels bad. Epitome only rerolls her casting, not dispelling or unbinding. Enrapturess up in points but nothing with depravity anymore. Keeper nerf. Weird syll'esske change where he only again buffs mortals but you need demons near as well. If they increased the points cost of everything because of summoning (which we already had to begin with) then why not just make it harder to summon and keep points of what we plan to take lower? 

I know pre-order day is tomorrow for me... but I'm on the struggle bus here with actually wanting to buy a lot of things. I'll have to play with some list ideas before I commit. The high prices on both kit and points in game add to the difficulty. 

[Icarion]

I get that points look high in comparison to similar units in other battletomes, but that is a false equivalence.

In addition to more mundane allegiance abilities like exploding 6's, Slaanesh now has one of the easiest summoning points mechanics in the game to achieve.

One of the most appealing options in summoning here is a unit of 30 demonettes, for 12 DP. With the proliferation of large threat range, shooting units in the army, its not unreasonable at all to expect 24+ dp over the course of a game. That's more than 600 extra points a slaanesh army can bring to the table with relative ease.

Nothing in the this game is free, you pay for allegiance abilities in the points costs of your units, and so the higher points for these mortals seems perfectly fine, considering the ease with which you'll be brining in summoned units.

[azdimy]

33 minutes ago, Athrawes said:

Nothing in the this game is free, you pay for allegiance abilities in the points costs of your units, and so the higher points for these mortals seems perfectly fine, considering the ease with which you'll be brining in summoned units.

To some extent but  i can bring 5 chaos warrior for nearly half the cost of 5 painbringers or twin souls and generate the same amount of depravity with them without paying the in battletome tax

[Rivener]

4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

To some extent but  i can bring 5 chaos warrior for nearly half the cost of 5 painbringers or twin souls and generate the same amount of depravity with them without paying the in battletome tax

This exactly. Depravity does (and absolutely should) work on all units, friendly or otherwise. That means the units in this book cannot be intentionally overpriced just to hem in summoning- it’s literally not possible without a fundamental restructuring of every markable chaos unit.

Thus, summoning and the HoS units must both be fairly costed. Right now there may be an imbalance with overly cheap summons (though we don’t know this with any certainty whatsoever), and there is a clear, mathematically demonstrable imbalance with the pricing of the warscrolls.

No one needs to take my word for it; just look at some of our allies warscrolls and their costs. These units are directly comparable to existing, cheaper, better units that are themselves bad in the context of their own books let alone the game at large.