Grimghast Reapers are breaking moral of my friends

[Phetus]

Hi

First im sorry for my english :P. 
Ill start by introducing myself since i juste created my account. I played Warhammer fantasy back in 1997 to 2003, i had a Undead army and  a Dark Elves army back then. I use to play with watever i could afford so that was prety casual play. Then World of Warcraft happened. Fastfoward to 2018 im rediscovering the game as Age of Sigmar and i LOVE it !

I play with a big groupe of 8 friends and we all started AoS back in june 2018. These guys are tryhards ... if they play something they will optimise there builds, im also guilty of this. Heres what they play.

Iron Jaws
Stormcast
Flesh Eater
Sylvaneth
Fyerslayer
Slave to Darkness
Khorne
Slannesh
Maggotkin

I play Legion of Nagash and extended into Nighthaunt.

Heres the situation, I play a list with at lease 30 Grimghast Reapers then 3 unit of Dire Wolves for battleline and 1 block of 6 to9 Spirit Host then i add different Leaders from game to game. In every game the reapers are just Unkillable (4+ No rend / 6+ shrug / mutiple d3 rez), destroy everything they touch(4+ 3+ / reroll hits / -1 rend), they fly and have a move of 8 ... And to add insult to injury, i could play 60 of them if i wanted ... (if i play them as Nighaunt they lose most D3 rez but they still break everything)

Whatever they try (We make good list that can fight everyone in the groupe, avoiding metagaming eachothers) the Grims are just killing the fun of everyone in my groupe(FEC player is fine obviouly lol).

my freind tend to concede faster and seem bored of playing against me. If i play a tone down list with deathrattles I/they feel like i try let them win ...

TLDR: Me and my friend are new to the game(11 months) but play like tryhards. Grimghast Reapers seem extremly overpowered in Legion of Nagash. And my friend are losing interest in playing againts them.

Is it something that you guys are experiencing too ?

Are they broken or are we missing something here ?

I know GWS are making new 2.0 books for old army and the GHB 2019 is comming soon. So is if just becose we are in a bad period and they should fix this overtime (this year) ?

If i was playing againts more top tier armys whould the reapers be fine ? (FEC,IDK,DOK)

Id like to ear from as many of you as possible guys.
Thank you and sorry for my english again.

[Arael]

That's because they still haven't played against new heartguard berzerkers, they will miss grimghast

3+ reroll 1 save, 4+aftersave, 2 w, - 1 to be wounded - 1 to be hitted, 2"range, always strike first, fight 2x phase, unbreakable if on objective. 

[SwampHeart]

The short version of it is Grimghast Reapers aren't fun to play against, especially in LoN. They were clearly designed with NH in mind where at least once you've killed them they're dead, in LoN they're subject to full recursion which means that what is in theory a glass cannon is no longer made of glass. They're a unit that, if you want to play competitively with a goal to place, you have to find a way to deal with. Some armies have that ability, others don't. GGR aren't the worst of what's plaguing AoS right now but for new players they're a feel bad play experience. I still hate seeing 60 of them on the table now even though I know full well how to deal with LoN, just because I can beat them doesn't mean I enjoy doing so. 

[Phetus]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

The short version of it is Grimghast Reapers aren't fun to play against, especially in LoN. They were clearly designed with NH in mind where at least once you've killed them they're dead, in LoN they're subject to full recursion which means that what is in theory a glass cannon is no longer made of glass. They're a unit that, if you want to play competitively with a goal to place, you have to find a way to deal with. Some armies have that ability, others don't. GGR aren't the worst of what's plaguing AoS right now but for new players they're a feel bad play experience. I still hate seeing 60 of them on the table now even though I know full well how to deal with LoN, just because I can beat them doesn't mean I enjoy doing so. 

How do you deal with them ?

[SwampHeart]

4 minutes ago, Phetus said:

How do you deal with them ?

Alot of its managing grave site resurrection - knowing where they can be placed and how and then positioning units to either block or limit their recursion. GGR are also largely more vulnerable to volume of attacks/MWs so I take units that either output large amounts of attacks or with good MW generation. I don't really bother with trying to go after death characters most of the time, they have too much defense to be worth it so I just try to blast down the reapers (but hopefully not entirely eliminate them) and then position my models so that my opponent can't get many models back in the unit (surrounding the unit/blocking off the reach of a grave site). Its largely a ticky-tacky game of positioning and lots of measuring and re-measuring.  

[PJetski]

30 Grimghast Reapers is a strong unit but it's not unstoppable. You can kill with focused fire. If you can pull the unit away more than 6" away from a hero they lose Deathless Minions.

The unit must be destroyed to respawn - sometimes it is better to leave them with 5 models than push to wipe them out entirely.

Like most large units that cannot retreat & charge, Grimghast Reapers are  weak to being pulled into combat on from a flank attack. They will get very few models into combat and their damage output is drastically lowered when only 5 models are attacking instead of 15+. Then the Grimghast player must choose to retreat and hope for a better position, or keep fighting with diminished capacity.

Finally, your friends need to learn the limitations of LON respawning units:

1. Only the general can use that command ability, and it must be used in the hero phase (before movement/shooting/etc.)

2. It can only be used if the general is within 9" of a gravesite

3. The unit must respawn wholly within 9" of that gravesite

4. The unit must respawn more than 9" from any enemy models

Kill the general, or kill the unit while you have your own units on the gravesite to deny a respawn.

[SwampHeart]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

sometimes it is better to leave them with 5 models than push to wipe them out entirely.

If the LoN has positioned his Gravesites and his characters well he can bring back 4 or more D3 models per turn. I agree this works in theory but with LoN you have to be tremendously careful about this because they can restore a unit from 5 to 30 far faster than you'd like.
 

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Like most large units that cannot retreat & charge, Grimghast Reapers are  weak to being pulled into combat on from a flank attack.

Not sure if OP is using it but most LoN players I know take the Mortality Glass Guardian of Souls specifically so they can retreat and charge their GGRs via magic. This is manageable once you know its an option, I often using cheap units like Ungors to block space for them to be placed once the spell is cast. 

[Phetus]

35 minutes ago, PJetski said:

30 Grimghast Reapers is a strong unit but it's not unstoppable. You can kill with focused fire. If you can pull the unit away more than 6" away from a hero they lose Deathless Minions.

The unit must be destroyed to respawn - sometimes it is better to leave them with 5 models than push to wipe them out entirely.

Like most large units that cannot retreat & charge, Grimghast Reapers are  weak to being pulled into combat on from a flank attack. They will get very few models into combat and their damage output is drastically lowered when only 5 models are attacking instead of 15+. Then the Grimghast player must choose to retreat and hope for a better position, or keep fighting with diminished capacity.

Finally, your friends need to learn the limitations of LON respawning units:

1. Only the general can use that command ability, and it must be used in the hero phase (before movement/shooting/etc.)

2. It can only be used if the general is within 9" of a gravesite

3. The unit must respawn wholly within 9" of that gravesite

4. The unit must respawn more than 9" from any enemy models

Kill the general, or kill the unit while you have your own units on the gravesite to deny a respawn.

 

25 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

If the LoN has positioned his Gravesites and his characters well he can bring back 4 or more D3 models per turn. I agree this works in theory but with LoN you have to be tremendously careful about this because they can restore a unit from 5 to 30 far faster than you'd like.
 

Not sure if OP is using it but most LoN players I know take the Mortality Glass Guardian of Souls specifically so they can retreat and charge their GGRs via magic. This is manageable once you know its an option, I often using cheap units like Ungors to block space for them to be placed once the spell is cast. 

They seem to have problem geting through them cuz of the mutiple D3 from Deathly Invocations. The 1CP bring them back ability hasnt been necessary yet. Engaging them with 2 unit tho i could see that maybe work. Well now that i think about it my unit of 30 Grim got charged by a Stormdrake and a unit of  Concussor(2) and i killed both concusor in 1 turn and so much happened in my favor elsewhere in the game he conceded turn 2 so maybe not the most relevent game. He also charged me from the front with both that might be very bad too ... idk

[Elmir]

GGR in themselves aren't the problem... At least they aren't in a NH (that has very mediocre to weak allegiance abilities)

It's just the interaction with LoN summoning that's problematic. LoN don't have a lot of "elite-ish" units with the summonable keyword, but when NH came out (and the dubious decision, at least from a rules pov,  was made to allow GGR to be taken in a LoN army) that changed. 

I really hope the design studio sees this and doesn't just go around increasing the points cost of a unit that's fine in one army, but bent in another. 

As for your army: try playing with a NH allegiance instead, it'll be a lot more fun for your opponent and you can still use those models. 

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Phetus said:

Hi

First im sorry for my english :P. 
Ill start by introducing myself since i juste created my account. I played Warhammer fantasy back in 1997 to 2003, i had a Undead army and  a Dark Elves army back then. I use to play with watever i could afford so that was prety casual play. Then World of Warcraft happened. Fastfoward to 2018 im rediscovering the game as Age of Sigmar and i LOVE it !

I play with a big groupe of 8 friends and we all started AoS back in june 2018. These guys are tryhards ... if they play something they will optimise there builds, im also guilty of this. Heres what they play.

Iron Jaws
Stormcast
Flesh Eater
Sylvaneth
Fyerslayer
Slave to Darkness
Khorne
Slannesh
Maggotkin

I play Legion of Nagash and extended into Nighthaunt.

Heres the situation, I play a list with at lease 30 Grimghast Reapers then 3 unit of Dire Wolves for battleline and 1 block of 6 to9 Spirit Host then i add different Leaders from game to game. In every game the reapers are just Unkillable (4+ No rend / 6+ shrug / mutiple d3 rez), destroy everything they touch(4+ 3+ / reroll hits / -1 rend), they fly and have a move of 8 ... And to add insult to injury, i could play 60 of them if i wanted ... (if i play them as Nighaunt they lose most D3 rez but they still break everything)

Whatever they try (We make good list that can fight everyone in the groupe, avoiding metagaming eachothers) the Grims are just killing the fun of everyone in my groupe(FEC player is fine obviouly lol).

my freind tend to concede faster and seem bored of playing against me. If i play a tone down list with deathrattles I/they feel like i try let them win ...

TLDR: Me and my friend are new to the game(11 months) but play like tryhards. Grimghast Reapers seem extremly overpowered in Legion of Nagash. And my friend are losing interest in playing againts them.

Is it something that you guys are experiencing too ?

Are they broken or are we missing something here ?

I know GWS are making new 2.0 books for old army and the GHB 2019 is comming soon. So is if just becose we are in a bad period and they should fix this overtime (this year) ?

If i was playing againts more top tier armys whould the reapers be fine ? (FEC,IDK,DOK)

Id like to ear from as many of you as possible guys.
Thank you and sorry for my english again.

Weird question, but are you playing the battleplans? They are THE great equalisers in AoS in my mind. 

[Phetus]

15 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Weird question, but are you playing the battleplans? They are THE great equalisers in AoS in my mind. 

Yes we are

[Phetus]

21 minutes ago, Elmir said:

GGR in themselves aren't the problem... At least they aren't in a NH (that has very mediocre to weak allegiance abilities)

It's just the interaction with LoN summoning that's problematic. LoN don't have a lot of "elite-ish" units with the summonable keyword, but when NH came out (and the dubious decision, at least from a rules pov,  was made to allow GGR to be taken in a LoN army) that changed. 

I really hope the design studio sees this and doesn't just go around increasing the points cost of a unit that's fine in one army, but bent in another. 

As for your army: try playing with a NH allegiance instead, it'll be a lot more fun for your opponent and you can still use those models. 

I played them a couple of time in NH and they feel very strong still( not as strong for sure). NH si not as good a brining them back so theres less of a feel bad sentiment for sure. On the other hand theres a small combo i like to run that gave me most of my games as NH. (Dreadblade Harrow + Teleport a unit for a CP + Ruler of the spirit host and a block of 9 Spirit host) i also run the cogs.

[InSaint]

Ah just wait a little.

The new Slannesh might absolutely decimate your 30 Grimghast.  Not only can they make you strike last, they have an 18" wholly within spell that allows them to roll a dice for EVERY MODEL in the unit and on a 6, it does D3 Mortal Wounds. You are looking at 5xD3 Mortal Wounds.

Absolutely brutal against hordes.

Edited May 6, 2019 by InSaint

[Phetus]

1 minute ago, InSaint said:

Ah just wait a little.

The new slannesh might absolutely decimate your 30 Grimghast.  Not only can they make you strike last, they have an 18" wholly within spell that allows them to roll a dice for EVERY MODEL in the unit and on a 6, it does D3 Mortal Wounds. Absolutely brutal against hordes.

thats cool im all for counters but in AoS is this what i should expect, that army is good vs this army and thats it ? so bad matchup are very bad and good matchup a very good. just thinking that the game might be developed that way makes me gag a little ...

[SwampHeart]

6 minutes ago, InSaint said:

Ah just wait a little.

The new Slannesh might absolutely decimate your 30 Grimghast.  Not only can they make you strike last, they have an 18" wholly within spell that allows them to roll a dice for EVERY MODEL in the unit and on a 6, it does D3 Mortal Wounds. You are looking at 5xD3 Mortal Wounds.

Absolutely brutal against hordes.

Assuming you play against LoN GGRs you're never casting it. Nagash has +3 to unbind, but even if it goes off you're talking about at best 12 dead models after the death save (and that assumes you rolled 15 MWs). Slaanesh can deal with GGRs through speed and they do a better job of managing grave sites but I wouldn't count on that spell for much. 

[Phetus]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Assuming you play against LoN GGRs you're never casting it. Nagash has +3 to unbind, but even if it goes off you're talking about at best 12 dead models after the death save (and that assumes you rolled 15 MWs). Slaanesh can deal with GGRs through speed and they do a better job of managing grave sites but I wouldn't count on that spell for much. 

i can see that . Also even if nagash is not there, that means Arkhan is so thats +2 to unbind.

[InSaint]

The Infernal Enraptress and Fiends say hi 😘

Anyway, the battletome is so new, we should wait and see how they perform.

Edited May 6, 2019 by InSaint

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, InSaint said:

The Infernal Enraptress and Fiends say hi 😘

Anyway, the battletome is so new, we should wait and see how they perform.

I love the tome and think it has great legs (pun intended) but the Enrapturess and Fiend provide defense but don't help you get your casting through (both have adverse affects when the enemy casts, not when he unbinds).

Back to the point of the topic - your friends will either learn to deal with Reapers or they'll stop playing, that's basically the long and short of it. 

[ledha]

23 hours ago, Phetus said:

TLDR: Me and my friend are new to the game(11 months) but play like tryhards. Grimghast Reapers seem extremly overpowered in Legion of Nagash. And my friend are losing interest in playing againts them.

Playing in a optimised way isn't funny anymore when the other guy optimize better and more than you, and there is always someone who is better than you at this game.

A arm race in a game such as age of sigmar NEVER end well.

You just all have to learn to control yourselves and not play with only optimised lists

Edited May 7, 2019 by ledha

[Phetus]

1 minute ago, ledha said:

Playing in a optimised way isn't funny anymore when the other guy optimize better and more than you, and there is someone who is better than you at this game.

A arm race in a game such as age of sigmar NEVER end well.

You just all have to learn to control yourselves and not play with only optimised lists

thats sad ... cuz thats what might happen. We are used to play game that ways (naming 1 MTG for exemple). Casual play is boring to us. I think i got some interesting anwser tho and will wait and see what happens with GHB2019.

[Dead Scribe]

If you and your group are truly a competitive group then part of being a competitive player is learning how to deal with everything in the game.  If your group is in danger of quitting because they cannot overcome something in the game, I would question if they were truly competitive players and not more casual players.

Either way, groups have interpersonal dynamics.  If the game is not fun then its not worth playing, and in the GW universe that seems to mean each group has to come up with their own hard and fast rules on what is and is not allowed for the health of the group overall.

My group is primarily competitive overall but even we get stressed and burned out from basically playing the same type of lists over and over again after almost two years.   We've also had a lot of attrition lately with players selling their stuff and moving on because while they understood HOW to play the game, it stopped being fun for them.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Dead Scribe

[Skabnoze]

23 hours ago, Phetus said:

thats sad ... cuz thats what might happen. We are used to play game that ways (naming 1 MTG for exemple). Casual play is boring to us. I think i got some interesting anwser tho and will wait and see what happens with GHB2019.

Optimizing for fun with your friends should not be described as casual.  Hardcore, casual, fluff players, etc are all just divisive labels and not terribly useful.  Everyone plays these games for somewhat different reasons and none of those reasons are wrong.  There is no "right" or "best" way to play these games.

It sounds like your group might be missing the forest for the trees here.  I am not going to tell you exactly how to play any particular game, but it is worth having the discussion with your group as to what everyone enjoys doing and try to put your emphasis into that.  If everyone wants to play the most top-tier competitive thing possible in this game then they should not be very prone to quitting when someone dumps a stupidly powerful list onto the table and they have a hard time beating it.  Not every army is going to compete at the top level of the game, and many armies that do compete at that level will not have a wide variety of builds for that narrow type of competition.  You will also have to accept that the landscape of what is competitive changes rapidly and if you want to stay on top of things then you will have to be willing to change what models you use and potentially rotate armies as just about every army goes through patches of being fairly strong or relatively weak.

But from your description I don't think your crew really wants to play pure competitive.  It sounds to me more like you guys want to have some sort of middle ground area where you can have tough games but use whatever factions really appeal to the various members.  That is a great way to play the game, but it requires people in your play group to be able to recognize when something is a negative experience for your opponent and adjust what you are doing.  If you are playing the game to have an enjoyable time with your friends then that should be your goal - not trying to put something on the table to curb-stomp the opponent.  If your group is trying to practice for attending top-tier tournaments then that is one thing - and you will have to be exposed to these sorts of lists.  But not everyone finds that to be a fun way to spend much of their time.  If your group is not really going to go out of their way to travel to all of the big tournaments, and people find that fighting against the really top-tier stuff is a cause for burn-out, then try to modify your behaviors in the group so that everyone is having a good time.  Groups that don't figure out how to maximize enjoyment for most of the members will suffer from burn-out (this is true for any game).  Groups that last a long time usually do so because most of the members have positive experiences and enjoy the activity of meeting and playing games.

Basically, this is a game of toy soldiers you play with your friends and it is often useful to regularly examine exactly what you and your friends want to gain from spending money and time playing with little plastic toys.  Then try to do your best to fulfill that desire for all of the members of your play group.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Skabnoze

[ryoku]

You play a similar list to my Legion of Sacrament army, and I the only Death player out of about 12 in our group. I also had a similar experience at first.  After a few games, my group of friends (and some coaching from me on how to counter grave sites and horde armies) began to turn the tables on me. I also dropped them down to 20 for some games to get around the initial NGE. The last couple of games have been nail biters of which I was starting to lose by the later battle rounds. I had this experience initially with the VLoZD, too.

GGR are a really great unit, especially in LoN, but they have easy weaknesses, too. Their re-rolls go away on small units (they hit on 4s), they have a hard time being the "anvil and the hammer" at the same time (the spirit hosts really help with that when you run min 3xdogs), and they are susceptible to MWs. They may be immune to rend, however it does not help vs spells or units lacking rend anyways, and is less effective vs multiple damage wounds. Then there is controlling the grave sites and targeting support heroes.

With discussion in our play group, we always try to balance our armies against each other so that both sides have fun, unless of course its tourney practice or a more serious campaign.

[Saxon]

On 5/7/2019 at 2:40 AM, InSaint said:

Ah just wait a little.

The new Slannesh might absolutely decimate your 30 Grimghast.  Not only can they make you strike last, they have an 18" wholly within spell that allows them to roll a dice for EVERY MODEL in the unit and on a 6, it does D3 Mortal Wounds. You are looking at 5xD3 Mortal Wounds.

Absolutely brutal against hordes.

GW loves to increase the nonsense each army can do every time they release..... 

[Saxon]

2 hours ago, ryoku said:

You play a similar list to my Legion of Sacrament army, and I the only Death player out of about 12 in our group. I also had a similar experience at first.  After a few games, my group of friends (and some coaching from me on how to counter grave sites and horde armies) began to turn the tables on me. I also dropped them down to 20 for some games to get around the initial NGE. The last couple of games have been nail biters of which I was starting to lose by the later battle rounds. I had this experience initially with the VLoZD, too.

GGR are a really great unit, especially in LoN, but they have easy weaknesses, too. Their re-rolls go away on small units (they hit on 4s), they have a hard time being the "anvil and the hammer" at the same time (the spirit hosts really help with that when you run min 3xdogs), and they are susceptible to MWs. They may be immune to rend, however it does not help vs spells or units lacking rend anyways, and is less effective vs multiple damage wounds. Then there is controlling the grave sites and targeting support heroes.

With discussion in our play group, we always try to balance our armies against each other so that both sides have fun, unless of course its tourney practice or a more serious campaign.

I play freeguild and death. 30 x crowwbowmen = 60 shots hitting and wounding on 4's base which can be buffed with the general. If you do hold the line with the great company you can shoot twice in a round providing they don't move and the reapers charge your meatshields.