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Erdemo86

Competitive Top Tier Armys

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Posted (edited)

Ariana Grande is correct afterall, God is a Woman.

 

Edited by InSaint

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5 hours ago, prochuvi said:

I would put lon at god tier and fyreslayer tier 3 but agree with all other

Just wait until people buy build and paint 30 hearthguard berserkers from hermdar. How do you take out a unit that can absorb 120 mortal wounds, battleshock immune ? With a basic profile of 4+/4+/-/1 ... even 1200 attacks do not take out the unit. Tier 3 LOL

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6 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

 

In addition they lump all 4 LoN allegiances together. Blood and Night are far less popular and consistent performers than Grand Host and Sacrament. Lumping them all together like that skews things.

That's always been my frustration with these rankings. What is Neferata with a bunch of Blood Knights placing first constantly, or like, literally which version of death cuz there's 47 ways to play across 5 or so sub-factions with LoN. People never even write about Soulblight but it's literally in the book....

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7 hours ago, Alexonian said:

I agree with you that I don't want them to be to good, I already play slaanesh so would be happy with kharadron just being middle tier ;)

what I was getting at was that both became much better, kharadron is so bad currently though if they get the same treatment they probably would be middle tier...

I agree with you.

Personally, I don't really care exactly what competitive "tier" armies fall into.  I realize that is very important for some people and that is a perfectly valid thing to consider.  For myself it is just not the thing that drives me to pick up an army.  My main criteria for collecting an army is if the models really inspire me and I find the rules fun to play with.  I can regularly lose with a force and have fun and I can also regularly win with a force and have fun.  There are lots of things that I find interesting and fun.

I would like to see Kharadron Overlords updated because the army has fantastic models but it simply does not function well as it was designed.  When it was good it veered so heavily into the negative play experience for opponents, and now it is just in such a poor state that it is not really fun for most players to play with.  Armies should ideally be fun to both use and play against.  The more armies that fall into that space the better the game is as a whole.

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1 minute ago, Ravinsild said:

That's always been my frustration with these rankings. What is Neferata with a bunch of Blood Knights placing first constantly, or like, literally which version of death cuz there's 47 ways to play across 5 or so sub-factions with LoN. People never even write about Soulblight but it's literally in the book....

Mate these rankings don't mean anything. People are ranking factions from books they can't name a half dozen rules from.

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11 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

How do you take out a unit that can absorb 120 mortal wounds,

Inflict 121 mortal wounds?

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1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

Mate these rankings don't mean anything. People are ranking factions from books they can't name a half dozen rules from.

Guilty.

I cannot name a single rule from the Swifthawk Agents battletome...

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1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

Inflict 121 mortal wounds?

snarky and mildly funny. But not really helpful. 5/10

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Just now, Skabnoze said:

I agree with you.

Personally, I don't really care exactly what competitive "tier" armies fall into.  I realize that is very important for some people and that is a perfectly valid thing to consider.  For myself it is just not the thing that drives me to pick up an army.  My main criteria for collecting an army is if the models really inspire me and I find the rules fun to play with.  I can regularly lose with a force and have fun and I can also regularly win with a force and have fun.  There are lots of things that I find interesting and fun.

I would like to see Kharadron Overlords updated because the army has fantastic models but it simply does not function well as it was designed.  When it was good it veered so heavily into the negative play experience for opponents, and now it is just in such a poor state that it is not really fun for most players to play with.  Armies should ideally be fun to both use and play against.  The more armies that fall into that space the better the game is as a whole.

Everyone says the turtle sucks but I'll be damned if I don't buy one and run a bunch of Thralls and Reavers keeping them under it for cover like it says in the book. It's too sweet of a model not to use. Which is why I don't like competitive armies. It boils down every faction into "this 1 thing is what works" so the Idoneth Deepkin thread is dead because the army is "solved". Run eels that's it gg. 

There's no room for infantry heavy, or using turtles, or alopexes, or any of the other amazing models because they're...not eels and ergo bad. It's just such a sad way to play IMO. I mean I get it, with the technical skill mastery and all of that, but is it impossible to still use those skills and the tournament mindset but also bring a variety in army composition? I guess maybe I don't get it after all. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Everyone says the turtle sucks but I'll be damned if I don't buy one and run a bunch of Thralls and Reavers keeping them under it for cover like it says in the book. It's too sweet of a model not to use. Which is why I don't like competitive armies. It boils down every faction into "this 1 thing is what works" so the Idoneth Deepkin thread is dead because the army is "solved". Run eels that's it gg. 

There's no room for infantry heavy, or using turtles, or alopexes, or any of the other amazing models because they're...not eels and ergo bad. It's just such a sad way to play IMO. I mean I get it, with the technical skill mastery and all of that, but is it impossible to still use those skills and the tournament mindset but also bring a variety in army composition? I guess maybe I don't get it after all. 

I am guilty of getting really excited at the Idoneth model reveals but then disappointed by the army rules - despite elves just being so yucky as a thing.  For me I think it is mainly that the army is so heavily driven by Namarti.  If you want to play just mainly fish then half the army drops out - including most of the heroes.  And then the final thing that did me in was the rules for the Allopex.  I don't hate them - I just am not excited by them at all.  They don't really do anything interesting.  I like the Turtle, I like the Eels, the lord on big sea-horse is at least interesting, but those sharks are just really dull.  The shark models are great though.

Seriously GW, how do you manage to make people riding big flying sharks a boring thing?  You guys should get a trophy for that accomplishment...

I'll probably put together a small force at some point just because they look neat, but I had a hard time reading the book to find a gameplay hook that was interesting to me.  But, not every army needs to be for everyone and at the end of the day these are still a bunch of yucky elves.

Edited by Skabnoze

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

snarky and mildly funny. But not really helpful. 5/10

Sorry man, but as a goblin when we go for low-hanging stuff it has to be REALLY low...

Edited by Skabnoze
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2 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I am guilty of getting really excited at the Idoneth model reveals but then disappointed by the army rules - despite elves just being so yucky as a thing.  For me I think it is mainly that the army is so heavily driven by Namarti.  If you want to play just mainly fish then half the army drops out - including most of the heroes.  And then the final thing that did me in was the rules for the Allopex.  I don't hate them - I just am not excited by them at all.  They don't really do anything interesting.  I like the Turtle, I like the Eels, the lord on big sea-horse is at least interesting, but those sharks are just really dull.  The shark models are great though.

I'll probably put together a small force at some point just because they look neat, but I had a hard time reading the book to find a gameplay hook that was interesting to me.  But, not every army needs to be for everyone and at the end of the day these are still a bunch of yucky elves.

I like the Namarti equally as much as the sea creatures LOL. I like infantry anyway, the other stuff is just cool cherries on top. The allopexes...charge and eat stuff I think, after you weaken them with shooting. Kind of like a Khorgorath i guess but not as killy. 

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Just now, Ravinsild said:

I like the Namarti equally as much as the sea creatures LOL. I like infantry anyway, the other stuff is just cool cherries on top. The allopexes...charge and eat stuff I think, after you weaken them with shooting. Kind of like a Khorgorath i guess but not as killy. 

I get it.  The Namarti thing is not something wrong with the army - just a personal thing for me.  I wanted an army of crazy sea creatures and not elf infantry.  I could probably convert them up into something I liked more.

And as I said, I don't think the Allopex is bad.  Nothing about the warscroll would prevent me from using it.  I just wanted something more?  What that means I don't honestly really know.  They are just kinda boring to me.  But that does not mean the army is not great for other people.  My opinion of an army should in no way impact anyone else's.  Don't listen too much to this dumb git.

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9 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

I think gloomspite are not as good isoneth, fyre dwarves, Lon etc..but better then the khorne/Nurgle/seraphons of the world. So I gave it the benefit of the doubt. Mangler Squigs alone push me his over the edge for me. I’ve seen them do some ridiculous things. Boingrot Bounderz at 100 for 5 is an insane value. I hope they don’t change in points, as it’s really the one thing that makes them tournament competitive. So naturally I’m building an all Spiderfang Army to be a special snowflake and prove people wrong 😅

Cheers, thanks for the explanation mate 👍

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3 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Just wait until people buy build and paint 30 hearthguard berserkers from hermdar. How do you take out a unit that can absorb 120 mortal wounds, battleshock immune ? With a basic profile of 4+/4+/-/1 ... even 1200 attacks do not take out the unit. Tier 3 LOL

So easy as kill the hero who is close,who have around 5 wounds with save of 4 or 5. So it is VERY easy to kill them and then 120 points for 10 wounds with save of 5 and 6++  is garbagge.

Sure if people dont know how play then fyreslayers with save of 2 and 999999 bufs are t1 but for people who know play then only kill heroes and they are t3 

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7 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Just wait until people buy build and paint 30 hearthguard berserkers from hermdar. How do you take out a unit that can absorb 120 mortal wounds, battleshock immune ? With a basic profile of 4+/4+/-/1 ... even 1200 attacks do not take out the unit. Tier 3 LOL

While I agree that 30 hgb is pretty much impossible to kill, that is still not the same as impossible to deal with. First, 30 hgb is not 600p unit, It is 980p minimum (600 for unit, runefather 100, 140 for bsmith and 140 for lord of the lodge, not counting runemaster 'cause he will likely be mending the pizza oven). 980p for single unit (since the heroes don't do much by themselves) that has 4 move. What happens to hgb after someone throws one of those "half all your movement" spells at them or throws one of the many wall endless spells in their face? What happens to hgb when someone starts to "bubble wrap" them with cheap expendable units like clanrats (there's no need to charge the unit, just slow it down by placing units near it)? What happens to hgb when dok player sends morathi to fight them? All of these methods do one thing: Slow the unit down to crawl. Aos has only like 2 or so scenarios where hgb shine because there are so few objectives to hold, but they can't be in 2 places at the same time, you deal with hgb by not focusing on them. They are simply too slow to be dictating who fights who. If skaven player slows 1000p worth hgb with 360p worth of clanrats and some endless spell, that player can use the rest of his/her 1600p to deal with the rest of the fyreslayer forces.

Not saying that 30hgb isn't underpriced or really really good (broken), but it is really easy to shut down single unit that has nothing else going for it than awesomu powar in melee and is really slow. And of course, armies with good snipers will blow those heroes protecting them out without any real problems. Finally, only real spell protection fs have is 50/50 banner that either works, or doesn't (not that it matters when wall endless spell forces you to slowly go around it).

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@angrycontra

Just to add an important addition that would affect your whole "block them with stuff" point above:

- Hermdar Hearthguard wants to deepstrike onto, or as near as possible to, a center objective and stay there for the whole game. They can tank out most heavy-hitters in the game, and can one-shot most horde units if those horde units charge in or get charged in any kind of reasonably effective widespread engagement. 

So blocking their movement is not a solution, nor is slowing their approach with expendable units, since only the most tarpitty of tarpid units can hope to survive the first engagement. If the Hearthguard has double-pile in, and were on the offensive, they'll get a free 3" movement from their second pile-in after having wiped a unit, which is 1" less than their normal movement :D

So don't get blindsided by their poor movement values. That's really not how they'll get ya, and they won't alpha strike either, as they're much better off getting half-way there, run their support stuff into range and just camping it out.

 

 

They're probably not impossible to deal with, mind you, but they're not a problem solvable with chaff-delays or movement blocking. It'll take them one, or two if you really put in the work, rounds to get to that center objective, and there's not much you can do to stop that. The wildcard factor will be how we handle dealing with the rest of the map while the fyreslayers tough it up in the middle :)

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23 hours ago, angrycontra said:

While I agree that 30 hgb is pretty much impossible to kill, that is still not the same as impossible to deal with. First, 30 hgb is not 600p unit, It is 980p minimum (600 for unit, runefather 100, 140 for bsmith and 140 for lord of the lodge, not counting runemaster 'cause he will likely be mending the pizza oven). 980p for single unit (since the heroes don't do much by themselves) that has 4 move. What happens to hgb after someone throws one of those "half all your movement" spells at them or throws one of the many wall endless spells in their face? What happens to hgb when someone starts to "bubble wrap" them with cheap expendable units like clanrats (there's no need to charge the unit, just slow it down by placing units near it)? What happens to hgb when dok player sends morathi to fight them? All of these methods do one thing: Slow the unit down to crawl. Aos has only like 2 or so scenarios where hgb shine because there are so few objectives to hold, but they can't be in 2 places at the same time, you deal with hgb by not focusing on them. They are simply too slow to be dictating who fights who. If skaven player slows 1000p worth hgb with 360p worth of clanrats and some endless spell, that player can use the rest of his/her 1600p to deal with the rest of the fyreslayer forces.

Not saying that 30hgb isn't underpriced or really really good (broken), but it is really easy to shut down single unit that has nothing else going for it than awesomu powar in melee and is really slow. And of course, armies with good snipers will blow those heroes protecting them out without any real problems. Finally, only real spell protection fs have is 50/50 banner that either works, or doesn't (not that it matters when wall endless spell forces you to slowly go around it).

I think the fact that great buffs aren’t “wholly within” and the same unit can claim multiple objectives. I think there are scenarios where there so influencial on large parts of the board that it feels like they are in more then one place.

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I would like to put Seraphon to the god tier because one guy sweeps my local meta and seems unbeatable.....

It’s confusing that Seraphon didn’t do well in tournaments according to the statistics from HWG

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1 hour ago, frostfire said:

I would like to put Seraphon to the god tier because one guy sweeps my local meta and seems unbeatable.....

It’s confusing that Seraphon didn’t do well in tournaments according to the statistics from HWG

Seraphon had a lot of tricks but does not hold up in a head on fight assuming even skill and luck. Deny skins taking objectives and snipe whatever enables battalions as most depend on 1 model to get any real benefit. 

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On 5/11/2019 at 6:17 AM, Mayple said:

@angrycontra

Just to add an important addition that would affect your whole "block them with stuff" point above:

- Hermdar Hearthguard wants to deepstrike onto, or as near as possible to, a center objective and stay there for the whole game. They can tank out most heavy-hitters in the game, and can one-shot most horde units if those horde units charge in or get charged in any kind of reasonably effective widespread engagement. 

So blocking their movement is not a solution, nor is slowing their approach with expendable units, since only the most tarpitty of tarpid units can hope to survive the first engagement. If the Hearthguard has double-pile in, and were on the offensive, they'll get a free 3" movement from their second pile-in after having wiped a unit, which is 1" less than their normal movement :D

So don't get blindsided by their poor movement values. That's really not how they'll get ya, and they won't alpha strike either, as they're much better off getting half-way there, run their support stuff into range and just camping it out.

 

 

They're probably not impossible to deal with, mind you, but they're not a problem solvable with chaff-delays or movement blocking. It'll take them one, or two if you really put in the work, rounds to get to that center objective, and there's not much you can do to stop that. The wildcard factor will be how we handle dealing with the rest of the map while the fyreslayers tough it up in the middle :)

I think the best way to block them are endless spells or others.

I didn't played against the new fyreslayer, but i blocked 10 evocators one time by simply putting my three khorne judgment in front of them and on their side, not letting enough space for them to cross the endless judgments, and blocking them near a unpassable scenery.

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11 hours ago, frostfire said:

I would like to put Seraphon to the god tier because one guy sweeps my local meta and seems unbeatable.....

It’s confusing that Seraphon didn’t do well in tournaments according to the statistics from HWG

There's a guy in my area who runs Ironjawz with the pig battalion and a bunch of command points that always does extremely well in tournaments. Its a super strong alpha strike that can easily table you top of turn 1 if you don't deploy well. I always roll my eyes whenever HWG talks about how poor Ironjawz are. I get what the stats show but its so utterly different from my personal experience I have a hard time accepting it. 

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Posted (edited)

KhaineTec presents

Will it blend? - Hearthguard Berzerkers

Yes, DoK famous blender is able to blend them. But with great difficulty and losses.

DSC_0029_1.JPG.f3bb86461c06ba40e64fe10baaf6600a.JPG

Edited by InSaint
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14 hours ago, Forrix said:

There's a guy in my area who runs Ironjawz with the pig battalion and a bunch of command points that always does extremely well in tournaments. Its a super strong alpha strike that can easily table you top of turn 1 if you don't deploy well. I always roll my eyes whenever HWG talks about how poor Ironjawz are. I get what the stats show but its so utterly different from my personal experience I have a hard time accepting it. 

I completly understand where you're coming from, in my Group we Play not very hard or competitive, but we all like to win for sure.

 

But we all have a Hard Time playing against Free People (yeah really). With all that Shooting, even with most times we win on objectives.

 

But I cannot find a way to Play my normal Skaven List or my new Fyreslayers List to work against that build. And it's the same build every game.

 

When I played Skaven with Shooting and the WLV and Shackles, etc,.. I won by turn 2.

 

Problem is, for me it's not a fun way to Play.

 

I like a bit of back and forth in my games.

 

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I took the Honest wargamer stats and made a quick graph of their AOS 2.1 vs AOS2.2 comparison for 6 May 2019 table leaving out the "non army" armies and got to this.

image.png.f51d21d71455cd29720ae858c946522b.png

One can prob with certainty say Daugters to Idoneth are pretty solidly top tier with win ratios over 60% which is way too high, second tier is probably skaven to Beastmen which might need slight point adjustments, Tier 3 with Bonesplitters to Seraphon who prob need slight point drops, and last tier of armies not even competing, luckily most of them still will get new books but it does show Gloomspite and NH where pretty shafted in their bbooks.

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