So, who does want Tomb Kings and Bretonnians back?

[EccentricCircle]

Actually I think Mantic actually had an underwater faction for ages before GW made the Idoneth.

As I've said above, I don't agree with the "it doesn't fit argument" since the world is so open that it has limitless possibilities. I think there is an argument to say that you can't have a death faction that is opposed to Nagash, since at present he controls all undead. However there is no reason it needs to stay that way, and from the looks of it most people don't neccersarily want Tomb Kings to be rereleased verbatim, but would prefer that the aesthetic be reimagined for the current age (with some old favourites reused perhaps). Thus there is no real reason why they couldn't "fit".

[El Syf]

Biggest problem with Tombkings I find is the line in the end times which went like this: "Settra does not serve, Settra Rules!" and subsequently became a meme, which resulted in people who had no liking of tomb kings before thinking they and Settra in particular were the coolest kids in town.

Although I played Vampire Counts in WFB so am rather biased.

 

[Kramer]

50 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Biggest problem with Tombkings I find is the line in the end times which went like this: "Settra does not serve, Settra Rules!" and subsequently became a meme, which resulted in people who had no liking of tomb kings before thinking they and Settra in particular were the coolest kids in town.

Although I played Vampire Counts in WFB so am rather biased.

 

Haha 😂 

at least you admit your bias. Reading this thread has been very interesting. It feels to me that the most comments contain a heavy bias (what fits, what doesn’t) based on their own experiences of the transition from old world to AoS. Of course it’s how opinions are formed but still... presented as fact 

for my two cents I’ll add that I still love to, and do, collect the old dogs of war models. They are mostly great sculpts and all of them ooze character.  I think most of them could weirdly still fit in AoS as well. All units from different realms, so different visuals fighting styles etc. (Although why you would bring pikes to jungle areas still baffles me 😂)

 

[Jetengine]

They bought pikes because like most european* colonists and explorers they assumed that their weapons and tactics would work anywhere.

*Fantasy spain or italy iirc.

[Bosmer Nightblade]

On 5/2/2019 at 12:54 PM, xking said:

No thanks.  We have enough stuff to update and new armies on the way.       Tomb Kings and Bretonnians  don't exist,   Greenskins and Gitmob however are in the lore, so they could get a update.

 

Also people asked GW  about bringing back Tomb Kings at an recent seminar, They bluntly said no and barely acknowledged the question.  So I wouldn't get your hopes up. 

I was at wh fest and someone asked about tomb kings. They didn't rule it out at all. Furthermore, Bretonnians can be found referenced in The Red Feast by Gav Thorpe: There's a man in there called Serleon (sir lion) who wears full plate decorated with lions, drinks red wine, speaks a language similar in construct to French, and comes from a "provan" called "Aquita" (in the old world, Aquitaine was a province in Bretonnia).

Edited May 17, 2019 by Bosmer Nightblade
Typo

[Overread]

Right now any army with knights and a knightly approach is  a nod to "Bretonnia" in most gamers eyes. So yeah they'll get shortened to being "brets" by which most mean "they are akin to them" in much the same way as Seraphon are Lizardmen. 

[dekay]

No one wants 1-1 transplant of Brets or TK to the new setting. What people want is a faction similar in theme for which they can use their old models and supplement them with visually and thematically fitting new ones. They'd also want that faction to be supported in rules and fluff and somewhat compatitive.

So anyone complaining about backwards people wanting old factions to return either never bothered to actually understand them, or maliciously overexaggerates opponents' position. 

Yes, Tomb Kings and Bretonnia won't return as they once were, but that's not what people want, right? And we see this even in this thread. 'TK can't return because Settra hates Nagash'...that's... not the problem?  Hell, the Non-Settra-Mummy-King can even plot against Nagash while ostensibly serving him to keep within the old theme while fitting the new world... Doesn't Manfred do basically that? 

Edited May 17, 2019 by dekay

[michu]

10 minutes ago, dekay said:

Non-Settra-Mummy-King can even plot against Nagash while ostensibly serving him to keep within the old theme while fitting the new world

Some people would never agree on that. They reduced Settra to "Settra does not kneel!" meme . I don't know what Lord Celestant Settrus would say about it...

[The World Tree]

An intra-death rival to Nagash would be incredible. I hope they would pursue that.

 

Tomb Kings still have points and rules, fyi. T suggest they are unsupported isn't entirely accurate.

[JPjr]

Regarding Bretonnia, can I check something... was the last time they were updated and had a new army book really 2004. I mean, not to diminish the pain and suffering that these people are obviously struggling to cope with but come on, take a hint guys. Maybe throw your energy into something more constructive and healthy...

It makes the, what... 8 year Tomb King vigil seem positively sensible.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by JPjr

[Overread]

Hey we waited many years for new Starwars films and for Lord of the Rings to get a move that went all the way start to finish

And some of us are still waiting on the next Game of Thrones book

 

We might not be patient but we are darned dogged in hanging on

[dekay]

14 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Regarding Bretonnia, can I check something... was the last time they were updated and had a new army book really 2004. I mean, not to diminish the pain and suffering that these people are obviously struggling to cope with but come on, take a hint guys. Maybe throw your energy into something more constructive and healthy...

It makes the so far 8 year Tomb King vigil seem positively sensible.

 

 

That is technically correct, but Brets were still availible for sale up to 2015 I think? Sure, we can blame their newer fans for their lack of research and choosing a high risk faction, but it's not like every person who misses their model line was their avid collector since early 2000's.

[Clan's Cynic]

On 5/17/2019 at 3:14 PM, JPjr said:

Regarding Bretonnia, can I check something... was the last time they were updated and had a new army book really 2004. I mean, not to diminish the pain and suffering that these people are obviously struggling to cope with but come on, take a hint guys. Maybe throw your energy into something more constructive and healthy...

It makes the, what... 8 year Tomb King vigil seem positively sensible.

  



The theme of heavily armoured, mounted knights wielding lances is a timeless and iconic fantasy image. Bretonnia ever existing in WHFB or not, I'm sure we'd still see very similar requests. Hell, looking at that one artwork of  what appear to be Free Guilds we may just end up with something between them and the old Empire. 

Like others have said, it's less Bretonnia specifically and more the theme of knights. I think everybody here accepts Bretonnia with a capital B is never coming back. Hell, the Sisters of Battle were last properly updated in 2003. Low and behold at what's now coming to 40k.

I'm sure the usual suspects would instantly change their tune if Daddy GW said "they're cool again guys!" and  without a shred of irony talk about how they always thought they were an awesome idea to bring into the Mortal Realms. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[Deepkin]

On 5/17/2019 at 7:27 AM, Jetengine said:

They bought pikes because like most european* colonists and explorers they assumed that their weapons and tactics would work anywhere.

*Fantasy spain or italy iirc.

Except in real life, the original Spanish conquistadors didn't bring many pikes, and instead relied on good old swords and shields (rodeleros) along with some guns and crossbows, because real-life Euros weren't dumb and knew pikes did not work well in rough terrain.

[swarmofseals]

I know that this is a bit out there, but I would re-introduce Tomb Kings as the first cross-GA battletome. The book would contain two allegiance packages:

• One faction of Order aligned TK that have generally regained more of their pre-curse consciousness, led by Settra and maybe Khalida (which could require some explanation or a ret-con). Focused on Hysh.
• One faction of Death aligned TK that are led by Arkhan, or possibly a different or new character. Focused on Shyish.

Completely scrap all of the finecast kits and the really old plastic kits, so we start with the following:

• Tomb Guard
• Necropolis Knights/Sepulchral Stalkers
• Warsphinx/Necrosphinx

Most "big" releases have been getting in the 7-10 kit range including terrain and endless spells/invocations, so I'll limit myself to that:

• Skeleton infantry/archers dual kit
• Skeleton chariots kit
• Melee/ranged Ushabti dual kit
• Necrolith Colossus/Hierotitan dual kit
• Liche Priest/Warlock hero blister
• Settra/Arkhan hero kit
• Khalida (or other secondary hero) blister
• Endless Spells/Invocations
• Casket of Souls/Suns terrain piece

If they let me have a 10th kit I'd probably go for the screaming skull catapult.

Each of the kits would be designed such that it could be assembled to reflect either of the two factions with things like headswaps, shield swaps or various decorative bits.

Both allegiances would have access to the full roster of units, except the only the Death side would have the Necrolith Colossos while the Order side would get the Hierotitan. Most of the warscrolls would have wording that would change their functionality depending on whether they have the DEATH or ORDER keyword.

The Order faction would be a priest faction with no wizards, while the Death faction would be the opposite. 

Overall the book would be written to push new design space and show off how subtle rules changes can alter the playstyle of a faction dramatically. The kits would be designed to create a stunning, fully fleshed out army that would be appealing to as wide an audience as possible while also maintaining an element of "backwards compatibility" so that they appeal to folks still playing  8th edition, for example. 

EDIT: I'll note that while I did end up cutting some cool units, I focused on cutting things that are redundant from a gameplay perspective. Sepulchral Stalkers cover the deepstrike/mobility plan just fine, rendering Tomb Scorpions, Scarab Swarms, and Carrion unnecessary. Horse archers and Horsemen are largely redundant with chariots, and chariots are far more iconic (and easier to design in a way that can be built to two different aesthetics with relatively minor changes). Necrotects and Tomb Heralds are unnecessary.

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by swarmofseals

[The Golem]

10 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

The theme of heavily armoured, mounted knights wielding lances is a timeless and iconic fantasy image. Bretonnia ever existing in WHFB or not, I'm sure we'd still see very similar requests. Hell, looking at that one artwork of  what appear to be Free Guilds we may just end up with something between them and the old Empire. 

You are making me think that sometimes I wish GW unified the Order Serpentis and the Order Draconis to create a cavalry army composed of aelf knights. They would have a 'seelie & unseelie' or 'yin-yang' theme and would belong to either one of two knighthood orders: the court of the Dragon and the court of the Serpent*.
Those courts would have different philosophical and moral values (not 'good vs evil', more like 'idealist vs pragmatic') and yet they would be similar, sharing the same desire for martial accomplishment. Their codes of honor would share a common ground and their knights would be both rivals and brothers in arms. On the battlefield, when they would be close to a unit of the opposing court, they would fight with redoubled efforts as to show their nearby rivals that they are the best knights.

*Instead of going after Dragon & Serpent courts, it could also be more interesting to create new ones (like sun & moon for example) so that we could mix draconis and serpentis in both courts. Would be interesting to see some drakespawn knights painted as idealistic and chivalrous guys along with some grim and pragmatic Dragon Blades painted with a darker color scheme instead of the classic white & blue from WHFB. Lot of conversion potential!

Well, that's just a silly wish of mine for the future of the aelf knights in AoS. But I wonder if it would please the Bretonnian fans (or even at least some of them) if GW went that way with the orders draconis & serpentis: take the heavily armoured monted knight and combine it with existing minis which don't have any battletome at the current time.

[Huanchi]

11 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I know that this is a bit out there, but I would re-introduce Tomb Kings as the first cross-GA battletome. The book would contain two allegiance packages:

• One faction of Order aligned TK that have generally regained more of their pre-curse consciousness, led by Settra and maybe Khalida (which could require some explanation or a ret-con). Focused on Hysh.
• One faction of Death aligned TK that are led by Arkhan, or possibly a different or new character. Focused on Shyish.

Completely scrap all of the finecast kits and the really old plastic kits, so we start with the following:

• Tomb Guard
• Necropolis Knights/Sepulchral Stalkers
• Warsphinx/Necrosphinx

Most "big" releases have been getting in the 7-10 kit range including terrain and endless spells/invocations, so I'll limit myself to that:

• Skeleton infantry/archers dual kit
• Skeleton chariots kit
• Melee/ranged Ushabti dual kit
• Necrolith Colossus/Hierotitan dual kit
• Liche Priest/Warlock hero blister
• Settra/Arkhan hero kit
• Khalida (or other secondary hero) blister
• Endless Spells/Invocations
• Casket of Souls/Suns terrain piece

If they let me have a 10th kit I'd probably go for the screaming skull catapult.

Each of the kits would be designed such that it could be assembled to reflect either of the two factions with things like headswaps, shield swaps or various decorative bits.

Both allegiances would have access to the full roster of units, except the only the Death side would have the Necrolith Colossos while the Order side would get the Hierotitan. Most of the warscrolls would have wording that would change their functionality depending on whether they have the DEATH or ORDER keyword.

The Order faction would be a priest faction with no wizards, while the Death faction would be the opposite. 

Overall the book would be written to push new design space and show off how subtle rules changes can alter the playstyle of a faction dramatically. The kits would be designed to create a stunning, fully fleshed out army that would be appealing to as wide an audience as possible while also maintaining an element of "backwards compatibility" so that they appeal to folks still playing  8th edition, for example. 

EDIT: I'll note that while I did end up cutting some cool units, I focused on cutting things that are redundant from a gameplay perspective. Sepulchral Stalkers cover the deepstrike/mobility plan just fine, rendering Tomb Scorpions, Scarab Swarms, and Carrion unnecessary. Horse archers and Horsemen are largely redundant with chariots, and chariots are far more iconic (and easier to design in a way that can be built to two different aesthetics with relatively minor changes). Necrotects and Tomb Heralds are unnecessary.

 

sign me up for this. i love this idea.

I guess your Settra/Arkhan is a Chariot Kit?

[EccentricCircle]

14 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I know that this is a bit out there, but I would re-introduce Tomb Kings as the first cross-GA battletome. The book would contain two allegiance packages:

• One faction of Order aligned TK that have generally regained more of their pre-curse consciousness, led by Settra and maybe Khalida (which could require some explanation or a ret-con). Focused on Hysh.
• One faction of Death aligned TK that are led by Arkhan, or possibly a different or new character. Focused on Shyish.

Completely scrap all of the finecast kits and the really old plastic kits, so we start with the following:

• Tomb Guard
• Necropolis Knights/Sepulchral Stalkers
• Warsphinx/Necrosphinx

Most "big" releases have been getting in the 7-10 kit range including terrain and endless spells/invocations, so I'll limit myself to that:

• Skeleton infantry/archers dual kit
• Skeleton chariots kit
• Melee/ranged Ushabti dual kit
• Necrolith Colossus/Hierotitan dual kit
• Liche Priest/Warlock hero blister
• Settra/Arkhan hero kit
• Khalida (or other secondary hero) blister
• Endless Spells/Invocations
• Casket of Souls/Suns terrain piece

If they let me have a 10th kit I'd probably go for the screaming skull catapult.

Each of the kits would be designed such that it could be assembled to reflect either of the two factions with things like headswaps, shield swaps or various decorative bits.

Both allegiances would have access to the full roster of units, except the only the Death side would have the Necrolith Colossos while the Order side would get the Hierotitan. Most of the warscrolls would have wording that would change their functionality depending on whether they have the DEATH or ORDER keyword.

The Order faction would be a priest faction with no wizards, while the Death faction would be the opposite. 

Overall the book would be written to push new design space and show off how subtle rules changes can alter the playstyle of a faction dramatically. The kits would be designed to create a stunning, fully fleshed out army that would be appealing to as wide an audience as possible while also maintaining an element of "backwards compatibility" so that they appeal to folks still playing  8th edition, for example. 

EDIT: I'll note that while I did end up cutting some cool units, I focused on cutting things that are redundant from a gameplay perspective. Sepulchral Stalkers cover the deepstrike/mobility plan just fine, rendering Tomb Scorpions, Scarab Swarms, and Carrion unnecessary. Horse archers and Horsemen are largely redundant with chariots, and chariots are far more iconic (and easier to design in a way that can be built to two different aesthetics with relatively minor changes). Necrotects and Tomb Heralds are unnecessary.

 

This is a really well thought out way to do it. I would love to see this happen!

[Veles]

15 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Each of the kits would be designed such that it could be assembled to reflect either of the two factions with things like headswaps, shield swaps or various decorative bits.

I like this idea. I think the paragraph above is unnecessary. You can easily achieve this result with different colorschemes.  

Also, “Scarab Swarms” can be incorporated as an endless spell.

Other than these two points I would totally buy the entire army done this way.

[Fulkes]

Looking at the options in the poll, I feel like Dogs of War coming back to give access to mercenary units of various races is the most likely option as it allows GW to let you take units from completely different factions (like destruction in your order) into your army which allows GW to sell you more stuff.

Brets are pretty much cemented as being FEC now in flavor and without a figure like the Lady for a group of Free People to latch onto we're not likely to see a return of those guys. 

Tomb Kings have the second highest chance of coming back, but we'll have to wait and see if Nagash will control them or not if it actually happens.

[michu]

2 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

and without a figure like the Lady for a group of Free People

In Spear of Shadows there are Demigryph Knight orders that consider Alarielle their godess. They even have warcry "For the lady of leafs!".

[Fulkes]

2 minutes ago, michu said:

In Spear of Shadows there are Demigryph Knight orders that consider Alarielle their godess. They even have warcry "For the lady of leafs!".

That could end up leading interesting places, but I feel like the old Brets are never coming back. We'll likely get a spin off of the Free People that plays similarly, but that lore flavor isn't coming back and it's really the flavor people bought into so I don't know if just bringing back the models would be enough to bring those old players back.

[michu]

I think people can recreate that flavor by themselves?  And honestly if  that adition to Freeguild would be noble knights that fight evil for their goddess then it couldn't be more bretonnian.

[Fulkes]

11 minutes ago, michu said:

I think people can recreate that flavor by themselves?  And honestly if  that adition to Freeguild would be noble knights that fight evil for their goddess then it couldn't be more bretonnian.

True, true, I just don't think it's enough for most people for GW to go "we gave you diet Brets so go have fun". Then again, I've mainly only been exposed to the saltiest of Bret players so that might be a bias on my part.

[michu]

TBH if knight orders as separate faction are going to return they will not be like world-that-was Bretonnians either way.