So, who does want Tomb Kings and Bretonnians back?

[MarkK]

Voted Bretonnians, but I'd like to see them back as a mortal and vampire Death faction, led by redone blood knights. Could give Death a fairly low model count army, which would suit my painting speed!

[flamingwalnut]

Ok, so I voted for both Tomb Kings and Dogs of War, but what I really want is just for those basic ideas to BE some of the new fleshed out ideas of new factions.

The constructs of the Tomb Kings were fantastic! I was tempted to get them a few times over. Ironically I probably would have had a Tomb Kings force had a friend of mine been interested in ONLY them....and then they didn't play anyways. Oh well. 

The Dogs of War thing was a random vote, really, because they already have a feel of that in Grand Alliance Order. I WOULD like a Free Cities tome idea, and a themed general to lead them all would be awesome. (the Paymaster, in this case)

Just my thoughts. At this point, I am rarely disappointed by what GW does as a whole. They are making great models, fun lore, putting forth creative ideas and trying to put the hobby and story first. All of these are great, and I only wish for that to continue.

[Joseph Mackay]

Tomb Kings and Bretonians didnt sell well, you can blame the player base for not buying them as the main reason theyre gone. the cries for them to come back are only a very vocal minority. some might try to blame gw for not 'supporting' the armies enough, but you dont pour money, time and resourses into something that isnt selling

Egyptian skeletons and King Arther era knights cannot be protected by copyright, for starters theyre too generic in visual appearance and use subjects that cant be owned by anyone. after the whole Chapter House thing a few years ago, gw has tried to do everything they can to stop people profiting off their ip and designs. ive seen people try to argue that nothing in aos is protectable as everything is 'generic' or inspired by something else, however the way the law works differs with your opinion. Ironjawz and Bonesplittaz as orcs are very unique visually for example. 'orcs' may be generic but these 2 are not

Bretonians are also covered by 2 different aos factions now anyway, so they are never coming back. Flesh-Eater Courts lore heavily hints at them being Bretonians, and Stormcast Eternals basically fill the knights in shining armour role but turned up to 11 with bird creatures and reptilian cats instead of horses

[Thiagoma]

I voted for Tks.

 

Tks under Settra, would be a day 1 purchase to me.

[Inquisitorsz]

As much as I like the egyptian theme... it's not really "AoS-like" 
It's a little bit too "normal" as far as Egyptian mummies go anyway. 
I like them. I just don't think they fit in to the AoS world very well.   

That being said, same can be said for basic vampires and skeletons, yet they exist. I think we'll see a soulblight update before any tomb kings. That's for sure.  
If they could come up with a way to have the Egyptian mummy theme and still be unique and fit into AoS lore then we might see TK back, but I doubt it.  
I'm still planning to do an Egyptian themed stormcast army at some point... like Thousand Sons but in AoS.  

As for Brettonains.... same problem really. They weren't very popular back in WFB for the same reasons. Mounted knights look cool but don't work very well and don't make much sense against armies with cannons, muskets, warpfire etc.... And AoS has more of that now and less of the traditional fantasy tropes.  
So Brettonians are even harder to fit into the AoS style.   
Perhaps you could do a small elite army of questing knights riding all sorts of fancy monsters. But really, Stormcast pretty much cover everything that Brettonians ever would, without the need of peasant militia . Maybe a vampire update could give them a slight nod by having some sort of royal family battalion? 

Orks and Grots.... who knows. I think they probably have enough now between bonesplitters, ironjaws and gloomspite. But I'm not familiar enough with the greenskin range to know whats missing.  

Dogs of war... we'll they were even more fringe than TK and Bretts. It's basically an army of random things. Just like Mixed Order now... I don't think it needs it's own faction at all.  Let's get the free people/free cities stuff sorted out first.  

[JackStreicher]

Bretonnians?

maybe as a faction for free people!

 

[svnvaldez]

I would not like Tomb Kings and Bretonnians to come back. I'd rather GW focus on the all the armies listed on https://ageofsigmar.com/factions/ getting an AOS2 update.

[RuneBrush]

I'd actually prefer to see "nods" towards some of those armies rather than them being playable as an army in their own right.  So maybe a chariot type unit added to Death, a Knightly contingent for one of the Order Armies (although as one person suggested, Soulblight would be amusing).  It would allow people with old armies to use their classic models whilst offering people without a cool more modern (and plastic) alternative.

When the Oubliette got opened during Soul Wars, it also opened the opportunity for lots of World that Was and Age of Myth characters to come back to life after being held there by Nagash - it wouldn't surprise me that we'll start to see miniatures coming out for this in the next year or so (bearing in mind it takes between 2 and 5 years for a model to be produced).

13 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I don't think that the old WHF armies were that much more expensive than AOS armies to be honest.  I've seen people field their old armies and the model count seems fairly close if not identical to the AOS equivalents in many cases.  

The cost used to vary massively between armies - some you were talking a couple hundred pounds, others couple easily run three or four times that if  you were looking at a tournament ready army (bearing in mind this is a few years ago now).  If memory serves I'm sure that some lists would comfortably veer into the thousands.

I think for AoS we're in a much better position when starting an army - we've start collecting boxes and most things available in plastic to begin with and it's much easier to play a small point game than it used to be 😊

[Yokai]

11 hours ago, Overread said:

AoS is a totally different kettle of fish and I can't see GW retiring AoS armies now. Sure some old sculpts will get retired and liekly replaced; but GW aren't going to remove skaven from AoS, nor Khorne, nor orks etc.... We have lost armies, but lets also not forget most of the big losses were in teh early days when AoS was basically a marketed as a boutique line of models. GW was making their own "reaper" style line only one that would allow them to axe many smaller armies now and then and just keep adding smaller new ones all the time. That's why they liked the Grand Alliance approach because in their marketing it meant the game had 4 armies. AoS today is utterly utterly different in concept and structure. 

Retiring entire armies in AoS won't happen "now", but if a certain army does poorly in the long run I am fairly sure it will be consolidated into another army with a few units surviving here and there (similar to how Arkhan became a mortarch in the Legions of Nagash, and the Spiderfang Grots got rolled into Gloomspite Gitz). It's just good business practice.

[Overread]

6 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

As much as I like the egyptian theme... it's not really "AoS-like" 

Except Egyptian is what a lot of Nagash units are themed after; heck we've just had new terrain (in white dwarf) shown which has a distinct Egyptian theme (with gryph hounds). In fact we get it so often every time one of those things leaks the TK fans arise up with their hopes. 

 

As for normal and such lets not forget Daughters of Khaine have Greek mythology critters and "regular mundane fantasy" things are all over the place. Most of GW's marketing was purely in name changes to things (aelves instead of elves). Others are simply twists on themes - we've got slayers who are dwarves who live in caves but instead of dry dead mountains they hang out in the volcanoes. Meanwhile KO are simply the Spirit of Grungari taken from one loan airship that goes against the rules of the Guild, into a whole race who uses skyships. Heck the only reason we didn't have skyships in Classic fantasy was because they were too big for the table (they appeared in Man O War, which is super old and classic stuff). 

 

 

 

 

Also I agree that big AoS armies don't have to be as big as some of the bigger Fantasy armies. I recall skaven being particularly huge in terms of the number of slave rats you needed and that was before you got to adding your clan rats on top. I think the major difference though is that with AoS you can get started with 1 box of models (skirmish). You can also get started with 1 getting started boxed set or one of their many duel army boxed sets. Ergo the game scales much better into lower point values and GW has worked hard to market games that are smaller scale. They are breaking the back of the concept of their hobby being too expensive to get started with.
Old Fantasy you needed 1K points to really get started and ideally 2K for fun proper matches. That's a big investment in time and money to get too. I think many started and then just burned out before they got anywhere. Which added to its other issues at the time and made getting new gamers a problem. AoS has tackled that on multiple fronts and even if we see point values lowering (or the base game raising to 3K) GW has established several cultures for people to get into their game on the cheap. GW knows that once they've hooked you on Shadspire/Skirmish then its only a matter of gradual build up till you've got 500points - 1K points etc... And whilst you're building up you've got those smaller games and fanbases to keep you entertained and playing the hobby - not isolated at home buildng building building.

[Clan's Cynic]

10 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Tomb Kings and Bretonians didnt sell well, you can blame the player base for not buying them as the main reason theyre gone. the cries for them to come back are only a very vocal minority. some might try to blame gw for not 'supporting' the armies enough, but you dont pour money, time and resourses into something that isnt selling

Egyptian skeletons and King Arther era knights cannot be protected by copyright, for starters theyre too generic in visual appearance and use subjects that cant be owned by anyone. after the whole Chapter House thing a few years ago, gw has tried to do everything they can to stop people profiting off their ip and designs. ive seen people try to argue that nothing in aos is protectable as everything is 'generic' or inspired by something else, however the way the law works differs with your opinion. Ironjawz and Bonesplittaz as orcs are very unique visually for example. 'orcs' may be generic but these 2 are not

 Bretonians are also covered by 2 different aos factions now anyway, so they are never coming back. Flesh-Eater Courts lore heavily hints at them being Bretonians, and Stormcast Eternals basically fill the knights in shining armour role but turned up to 11 with bird creatures and reptilian cats instead of horses

Bretonnians didn't sell because they hadn't received a new model in about thirteen years prior to being squat'ed. Their Army Book was equally ancient. The metal kits also had the Blood Knight problem of being VERY expensive, even by GW standards. I still saw plenty of Bretonnian armies in my time, it's just over a decade had passed without Bretonnian players actually having anything to buy. Tomb Kings sold fine when they had an Army Book that wasn't utter rubbish. I sure saw more of them in WHFB's life time than I ever did Beastmen. If Stormcast didn't get a single new model for thirteen years, would you say the same thing if GW squat'ed them? How many people were playing Dark Eldar and Wood Elves until they received a range overhaul? 

Egyptian Skellingtons with things like Bone Giants and the other larger kits are more 'IP protectable' than Nagash's current range of generic zombies/skeletons/rotting wolves. 

Claiming that FEC are Bretonnians is like saying Deepkin are the new High Elves. Just because they slap a few 'generic medieval' sounding names on their units and the lore says they imagine themselves as thriving medieval kingdoms doesn't make them Bretonnia. Nobody who actually likes Bretonnian thinks "gee whizz I may have lost my heavy shock cavalry, the appearance of knights and peasants, units that're almost entirely on foot and now play as a summonable horde army, but the lore says they have noble courts so it's practically the same!

I don't see people complaining about Slaves to Darkness despite being a 1:1 copy/paste from Warriors of Chaos. Darkoath are looking to be generic barbarians/marauders. Tomb Kings could be copy/pasted over to Age of Sigmar with very little effort and I'm sure if GW did that, the same people dying on the hill of "I never want to see them! WHFB bad!" would instantly change their tune if GW decided otherwise.

Bretonnians are obviously never coming back, but I would still like to see them reimagined in some form, IE my Soulblight/Blood Knight post above.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[Dirtnaps]

1 hour ago, xking said:

You can have a skeleton Army with some Egyptian themes, Nagash still has some Egyptian aspects to his aesthetic. ( he loves his upside down pyramids too)

But I don't think tomb Kings will ever return, some of the characters could come back, but they won't be what they once were, and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even be skeletons.

As someone who actually wants TK back, I agree with you. I don't think TK are ever coming back, but I do think a faction with similar elements/themes will come in the future whether or not old TK characters are apart of that faction isn't really important to me. I mean there's sort of already a faction that is similar to them  lore wise with the  Katophrane from the tidbits we've been drip fed regarding them, there just needs to be some kind of event that gets them brought out of Shadespire in the narrative and we're good to go.

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

Except Egyptian is what a lot of Nagash units are themed after

Yep. I don't understand why, with how GW had shown over and over again in AoS that they can turn up a theme to 11, people don't believe GW could capture a uniquely-their-own look for TK that has a feel like the old days but is totally 100% AoS.

[Jetengine]

I dont necessarily want the Tomb Kings back (Ie: As they were) but the 8th edition plastic kits were very nice and deserve to be released. Literally those kits and two Resin heroes are a viable faction.

[Veles]

TK were really seen because of poorly designed rules (same as beastmen) and a huge aesthetic gap between design of elite unit and old basic troops. I’ve been playing WFB for many years but stopped actively participating by the time of 8^th edition. That being said, TK elite models that were released around that time were absolutely stunning. Before that I never considered them as an option for myself (mainly because current VC line was much better as far as the sculpting goes) however; the new kits totally change my mind. I did purchase multiple new kits but unfortunately before I had a chance to assemble and paint them “The End of Times” happened and GW dropped the faction all together. It is really a shame. TK could have fit perfectly in new “multiverse/realm” setting. All skeleton/golem army – yes please. There is and always be a demand for an Egyptian style of armies in war gaming community. Unopened box with Sphinx on eBay is going for $150 with multiple bids.

Dogs of War is another interesting choice but I think it can be done with current Free People rules. The only thing that GW need to release for them are a unit of halflings and Birdmen.   

[Overread]

Just a point - Skaven from the Old World and Skaven of AoS are basically 100% identical. About the only difference is that they've now got gnawholes to drill through the fabric of reality and don't just have to drill through the ground itself. Otherwise attitudes, technology, themes, etc.. They are just Old World Skaven with a big injection of having MORE of it all (more rats, more tech, more open, more war, more warpstone!)

 

 

And yeah Bretonianns were an old army left to languish with very few new kits. It's the same with nearly any wargame; when the company stops posting material about them and stops adding new things and stops updating the rules the army suffers. Those who already have the army stop buying more and just buy into other armies or leave and new people don't get inspired to start them and see an uphill struggle and older models so just never catch on. I think with GW doing more of their community pages that iwll help a lot when some armies don't get updates for ages; but with the Generals Handbook alone there's a means for GW to update every single army with something newish every year even if they don't get a single new model. 

 

Honestly the way I see Free Peoples is that they might well up being just like Dogs of war- loads of subarmies pushed together. The only difference being they are a full army not parts of an army. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Overread

[lare2]

None of the above. May they all rest in peace. 

[EccentricCircle]

Its interesting that you often see people saying that the Greenskinz are just generic Orcs, and don't really have anything to set them apart as factions.

I guess at this point that is true, since the idea of the burly greenskinned orc is so pervasive across various fantasy works due to Warcraft and such. However its quite ironic since GW literally invented Greenskins in the first place and everyone else just copied them.

I'd not thought about it, but the idea of the freeguilds is actually quite similar to the idea of Dogs of War. They are more or less small militias or mercs defending their cities. It would be quite cool to have paymaster models for them, or some smaller warbands themed around various unusual freeguilds.

As a side note I very nearly included Chaos Dwarves on the list, but left them off in the end since they do have a current range, even if having proper plastic models from GW would be better than the forge world stuff that's currently available. Maybe they will get an update at some point, but i'm not going to hold my breath!

[Barbossal]

I have always had a place in my heart for Kislev. I know we'll never get them back l, but some inspiration would be a ton of fun

[EccentricCircle]

Oh yeah, you could totally make a Kislevite Free city of some sort with the right minis.

[azmodan]

22 hours ago, ledha said:

The problem is that 1% of the people who annoy us daily with "bring back tomb king please" would actually play the army if GW bothered to release it.

 

Sisters of battle for w40k are test for that.

If SoB fails they will be scared to try it with TK.

Besides the old world is dead. Kislev, and empire would be ridiculus. 

Every faction is so over the top in fluff that normal people would be hard to fit. 

AoS is not Fantasy setting. It is heavy heroic heavy magic setting. So many  normal mortal faction... I just dont see it.

But 1 faction for all mortals would be interesting.... after everything else have proper 2.0 battletome and update.

Slaves to darkness are a mess.

Skeleton models are so old they can buy cigarettes and alkohol legalny.

DoK need rebalance.

Aos 2.0 realeses are most balanced GW products for like last 10 years. After we got rewamp for every army iam open for something new.

But for now... I just want them to continue what they are doing becouse it is awesome.

 

[Tonhel]

16 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Bretonnians?

maybe as a faction for free people!

 

I really love this! I remember your CAD Vampire knights. What do you think about contactin "Last Sword Miniatures". They also have a 3D printing service, they made some great miniatures.

I would love to see your designs in real miniatures!

Their post about 3D printing service.

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Its interesting that you often see people saying that the Greenskinz are just generic Orcs, and don't really have anything to set them apart as factions.

It’s funny but they said the same thing for about more than halve of the skaven range, and now look where we are.

even the most generic clanrats are showing their unicness (although they might be the most generic battleline in the whole game now, since they technically lost and didn’t loose their special ability)😂😅

49 minutes ago, azmodan said:

But for now... I just want them to continue what they are doing becouse it is awesome.

Definitely, hoping the dispossessed will be soon in line.

(god I could kill-slay just to see this guys back on the battlefield)

[Overread]

I think part of the issue is that the Old World often focused more on some factions than others. Skaven did quite well all told for an evil race, but even then it was mostly focused on the handful of leaders/heroes that they had. Meanwhile the same is true of orks and the like - most were only shown during war times from the point of view of a war leader/hero. In addition they were often fleshed out as "generic bad/evil force" for the heroic stories of the good guys. 

 

AoS has somewhat shattered things a lot more and it seems that GW is FAR more keen to develop more factions with their own stories, heroes, leaders and the like. Heck the Inferno and Novella short stories are a HUGE thing when we get tales where we see the world from the view of Nurgles Loyal and Pure Knights; from the views of Barbarians who seek the favour of their Dark Gods, but at the same time will not slave themselves ot any god who cannot prove themselves to them. 

[Dirtnaps]

1 hour ago, azmodan said:

Every faction is so over the top in fluff that normal people would be hard to fit. 

AoS is not Fantasy setting. It is heavy heroic heavy magic setting. So many  normal mortal faction... I just dont see it.

Except regular old people are mentioned throughout the lore and novels, so they definitely do in fact fit and have a place in the setting otherwise why would they even bother writing them in? 

If this isn't a fantasy setting I don't know what is, it's got a realm system similar to D&D's planes, it has orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves, dragons, undead, knights, magic... what else do you want?