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Lord Veshnakar

What would it take to balance Daughters of Khaine?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

We should be enthusiastically waiting for the remaining factions to join the good.

Because this isn't happening and you know it. Not everyone is getting a Skaven, FEC, or DoK tier book. Yes some things need to be brought up but not everything that's been released since is on the same level as these three book. It is absolutely asinine to suggest people want DoK toned down out of jealousy of having a good book. A 100 point hag increase + a 30 point Witch increase is a result of a 200 point increase in most DoK lists which is actually a pretty reasonable approximation of where those things should be costed. 

If GW had shown that they are capable of getting most books at the BoK and FS level I might agree with you but they haven't. So some books need to be brought up but others need to be toned down. No one wants to wait 2 years for their army to get updated only to find out they didn't draw the lucky straw and get the next FEC. 

Edited by SwampHeart

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2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Because this isn't happening and you know it. Not everyone is getting a Skaven, FEC, or DoK tier book. Yes some things need to be brought up but not everything that's been released since is on the same level as these three book. It is absolutely asinine to suggest people want DoK toned down out of jealousy of having a good book. A 100 point hag increase + a 30 point Witch increase is a result of a 200 point increase in most DoK lists which is actually a pretty reasonable approximation of where those things should be costed. 

If GW had shown that they are capable of getting most books at the BoK and FS level I might agree with you but they haven't. So some books need to be brought up but others need to be toned down. No one wants to wait 2 years for their army to get updated only to find out they didn't draw the lucky straw and get the next FEC. 

IDK are close, SCE are close. FEC, Skaven, LoN, BoC, HoS, FS, GG are all excellent books. Nurgle is not far off, BoK, and NH trail behind obviously so. NH can probably be fixed with points, as can a 

If we include the close to a great books that is 10 good books not including DoK. 

Nobody wants to wait for anything, but the better solution is the better solution regardless of if people are prepared to wait or not. There is no alpha is breaking the back of DoK only to have to fix it with a new book later. 

I'm not advocating for no changes. I've clearly outlined some point changes myself. But, try and write a list with what people are suggesting. Ask the people who play DoK and play all the missions and they will tell you that honestly you will have a battletome that can't play the game effectively and you will have one less counter faction against some of the most abusive lists out there. 70 witches is a gatekeeper build, I don't think people understand what is out there if you take away that build from the meta.

Asinine or not, there is no reason to want to nerf one of many. Especially as DoK's power is closer to the norm than the lack of power of other battletome factions. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

FEC, Skaven, LoN, BoC, HoS, FS, GG

So you're telling me that BoC is on the same tier as FEC? Because that's how I read that. I play BoC and I can tell you that you have exactly 1 chance of dealing FEC and that's the bull. Also you're telling me that you think FEC and Skaven are on the same level as GSG, FS, or HoS? Because again there is proof (actual statistical proof) that this isn't the case. If these are your opinions there is absolutely zero commonality between you and I because there is no world where FEC and Skaven are on the same level as the other books you mentioned. 

 

18 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Ask the people who play DoK and play all the missions and they will tell you that honestly you will have a battletome that can't play the game effectively

Yes I'm sure if I asked DoK players they'd tell me there is nothing wrong with the book. However I don't think they're the most objective group out there when it comes to assessing their tome's overall balance issues. I also literally just did the math for you on the changes people are suggesting for DoK - its a roughly 200 point increase. 

Also you're suggesting that the best solution for players who right now are getting demolished by FEC, Skaven, and DoK is to wait and hope they get a good book. Man that really gives those players hope. 
 

Edited by SwampHeart

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There is a world of difference between everything being equal and things being close enough. There are reasons beyond points values that certain factions are good at the battleplans. Some factions thematically are just going to be better at playing the game then others. Once you internalize that, you see the books in different ways, you don't get so worked up about feast day or evocators dmg because killing models isn't how you win the game, it's about killing the right models at the right time. You figure out how you faction pivots on that point.

Anyway our opinions on design philosophy is irrelevant, because the simple fact is there isn't a single faction that has been "balanced" down via GHB that hasn't been irrevocably damaged to the point of under representation. Or alternatively created some new worse horror from the ashes of some specific offensive netbuild. 

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3 hours ago, Solaris said:

What I'm saying is that I'd prefer them to remain strong, and for other factions to be brought up to their level.

Do you know how we call this ? Powercreep. If you always bring up everyone to the level of the most powerful book, you end up in the same situation as 40k, where the rhino came from 50 pts to free, and the marine from 25 pts to 13, because EVERYONE had to be buffed again and again and again to stay relevant.

Bringing everyone up will just end, in 5 years, in a AOS situation where liberators cost 60 and paladins cost 110 because we will need to brought everyone up, repeteadly. And we are already seeing things like this (like lvl 2 caster being cheapers than previous lvl 1 casters, or things like screaming bell being cheaper than a celestant on dracoth)

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To be fair we know that in time the points for AoS will go down - it happens with most wargames as they mature and collectors end up with larger and larger collections of models they want table side not shelf side. It also happens because new things get added which add new dimensions to the game and require counters and options to tackle which ups the demand for more unit variety on the table. So either the point value changes or the total points for the game goes up. 

 

Also it doesn't actually matter if you "bring everyone up" or "take every one down." The direction doesn't matter, what matters is really the balance of the scaling up and down. Ergo if everyone scales up to the same point it is identical to if everyone scales down to the same point in terms of game balance. However if you keep changing the target and moving it continually further up or down then you end up with a continual mess of balance because the goal posts are changing position the whole time. 

 

Stable targets and then scale everyone toward them .

 

 

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19 hours ago, Overread said:

Also it doesn't actually matter if you "bring everyone up" or "take every one down." The direction doesn't matter, what matters is really the balance of the scaling up and down. Ergo if everyone scales up to the same point it is identical to if everyone scales down to the same point in terms of game balance. However if you keep changing the target and moving it continually further up or down then you end up with a continual mess of balance because the goal posts are changing position the whole time. 

This isn't true at all. If you both nerf and buff the outliers then you're always shaving off the edges to approach a common centre. You're never going to reach it obviously because perfect balance is impossible but you're still always working to some kind of average. If you only buff the weak stuff because for some reason some players can't handle it then all you're doing is introducing an arms race. No matter how careful you are you're inevitably going to overshoot the currently most powerful thing and because you're pandering to this attitude of "don't nerf my stuff" you then have a bunch of stuff that you can only buff again and so it just repeats. The stupid thing is that if they buff everything else but your stuff it's still really a nerf for what you're using, it's just been done in a way that doesn't result in patch notes saying you've been nerfed.

There's also this weird psychological fallacy that seems to go on where if something is nerfed the player distrusts the developer to get it right and the nerfed thing automatically becomes the worst thing ever and useless (even if they got the nerf right) while at the same time, the same player will trust the developer to be able to buff everything else because that will only ever bring them up to the same level as you. 

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That's why I said a fixed target. I agree if the goal post keeps moving then it won't ever balance out right; plus along the way some things have to go down even if the general trend is bumping things up to a standard rather than bringing them down.

 

I think the issue with wargames is more when things get nerfed which results in either invalidating armies or reducing what models one can bring to the tabletop. That's why I really prefer to see GW change stats and abilities rather than just increase points as a resolution to imbalance; esp since point increases often don't resolve the "broken" part they just mask over it. 

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Posted (edited)

My two cents.  I buy models that are optimal.  I spend money on them, and spend money to get them painted.  If you nerf them (or are an event organizer trying to introduce houserules into your event that is equivalent to nerfing my choices), you have essentially invalidated my purchase.  I would prefer them bring everything else up to my standard than to invalidate my purchase and the money I spend getting them painted by making them not optimal any longer by nerfing.

 

Edited by Dead Scribe

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I'm sorry but that's your problem by only buying what is currently the most OP in a game where there are always new things coming out and they've committed to making yearly changes. Them only buffing the stuff that isn't performing will still make your choices not broken and is better for the game than you trying to game the system and then complain about it when it no longer goes your way.

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On 5/1/2019 at 5:14 AM, Overread said:

Thing is hag queens are cheap, but they are also a pure support model. I can see them being cheap because you might use them to activate avatars or to support witches. So whilst the model on its own is expensive its price is basically part of a couple of  established combos - so if you feel that avatars should come down, but you raise the price of a hag you've actually not changed anything in that balance structure. Whilst if you raise the price of witches and the hag you're raising the price of that combo twice over; which combined might well take it outside of its bracket. 

Same is true when you've got armies of snakes, again the hag queens are sort of expected to be there supporting them. 

I think the hag is decently priced for what she is when taken within context of the army as a whole. Perhaps going to 80 or 90 but I think once you get into the 100s and beyond you're taking a model that's supposed to be taken in numbers to support the rest of the army into the region where its too expensive to take more than one (esp alongside things like cauldrons).

 

 

Personally I'm still in favour of adjusting some of the buff properties rather than the points. I think sometimes its better to leave the points alone and instead focus on the other elements that are open to us to change. In addition lets not forget that several recent armies like Flesh Eaters and Skaven are proving to be very powerful. It might be that DoK don't need that much of an adjustment and that instead of bringing them down it might be better to instead bring a couple of other armies up more in line with the current 2.0 battletomes. 

 

 

 

Hey man. I pay 140 points for a Support Hero and the only thing he does is add +1 to the melee attack characteristic of all units wholly within his 16'' ability range and make wizards re-roll successful casts which half of the time my opponent rolls better and thanks me :( 

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Posted (edited)

'm sorry but that's your problem by only buying what is currently the most OP in a game where there are always new things coming out and they've committed to making yearly changes. Them only buffing the stuff that isn't performing will still make your choices not broken and is better for the game than you trying to game the system and then complain about it when it no longer goes your way.

I was stating my preference given the choice between buffing everything around me, or nerfing the powerful stuff to bring it all down.

I don't think that warranted the nasty response you gave.

Edited by Dead Scribe

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On 5/1/2019 at 9:34 AM, King Taloren said:

If going to do that then it needs to apply to all priests in the game. Not just Daughters.

Slaughterpriests don't get a feel no pain or way to bypass Khorne smiting them ;-;

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22 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

 

 

I was stating my preference given the choice between buffing everything around me, or nerfing the powerful stuff to bring it all down.

I don't think that warranted the nasty response you gave.

But it's simply impossible for them to just buff stuff up to your level. I already addressed that. They buff every other army because the people with the most OP one are sensitive about being nerfed and then a couple of armies will inevitably end up overshooting. You're just shifting the problem around and you end up being nerfed anyway because everyone else gets better. They just did it by buffing everything else. It's exactly the same end effect on your army, but it's shortsighted and doesn't make the game any better other than making it even more catch the latest broken OP nonsense.

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I'm not a game dev.  I was just stating my preference.  If I was a game dev, that is the direction I would choose to go.

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I like how people constantly tote about how great the new books for every faction are but conveniently leave out Blades of Khorne and Gloomspite Gits. Oof. 

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Blades of Khorne, Gloomspite, and the new slaanesh I'd say are definitely not obviously competitive, but are a lot of fun otherwise.  

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4 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Hey man. I pay 140 points for a Support Hero and the only thing he does is add +1 to the melee attack characteristic of all units wholly within his 16'' ability range and make wizards re-roll successful casts which half of the time my opponent rolls better and thanks me :( 

and it's still one of the best support hero of the game. Compare to the khemist giving +1 attack to one weapon only of one unit. For 160 pts

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If we have to choose either bring the points down or bring the points up for balancing, most player might prefer bring the points down. However, I think this choice might make this game less friendly for beginners, because only few people are willing to spend a lot when they just start playing....

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1 minute ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

If we have to choose either bring the points down or bring the points up for balancing, most player might prefer bring the points down. However, I think this choice might make this game less friendly for beginners, because only few people are willing to spend a lot when they just start playing....

This is true, but at the same time AoS:

1) Has skirmish - granted marketing for that hasn't kicked off in a big way like Killteam has, but they've released it in White Dwarf and all the Tomes have skirmish points and stats in them. So it is well supported. Furthermore I fully expect once GW has released all/most Tomes we'll see it get its own skirmish product line and book released.

2) AoS rules scale better than Old World. A 1K match isn't obscenely unbalanced for most armies, whilst in Old World it sort of started getting a bit wobbly for some forces. 

 

So there's far more option for players to start small and work their way up. 
Much more than in the Old World days where 2K was sort of where you needed to be and most armies that would mean a lot of rank and file troops being build and painted up. 

AoS is much quicker to start even now for most armies at 2K points - even Skaven are no where near as bad as they once were in terms of model count required. 

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16 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

My two cents.  I buy models that are optimal.  I spend money on them, and spend money to get them painted.  If you nerf them (or are an event organizer trying to introduce houserules into your event that is equivalent to nerfing my choices), you have essentially invalidated my purchase.  I would prefer them bring everything else up to my standard than to invalidate my purchase and the money I spend getting them painted by making them not optimal any longer by nerfing.

There's a big difference between nerfing something and bringing it inline with other armies.  Nerfing results in something being unusable, balancing results in something being roughly on par with similar units.

I also think that there's a line between optimal and too good.  I run a max size unit of Grimghast Reapers in my Legions army - for me it's a great way of adding in a large unit of rending attacks with a very good movement.  However I'm quite happy to admit that they sit in the 'too good' category at the moment and am fully expecting a points increase to bring them back in line with everything else.  Now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that GW doesn't increase the points by too much - however I do know that if they do, then it's also likely that in a year or so time they'll be tweaked again and hopefully hit the right sweet spot.

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17 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

My two cents.  I buy models that are optimal.  I spend money on them, and spend money to get them painted.  If you nerf them (or are an event organizer trying to introduce houserules into your event that is equivalent to nerfing my choices), you have essentially invalidated my purchase.  I would prefer them bring everything else up to my standard than to invalidate my purchase and the money I spend getting them painted by making them not optimal any longer by nerfing.

 

The last SCE battletome pretty much invalidated my SCE collection by giving us better toys, but leaving internal balance out, unless GW learn to keep internal balance of the armies working - any changes may invalidate your investments, doesn't matter if it's up or down, for you or for them.

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There's no doubt the latest SCE book was definitely very bad in terms of internal balance.  It was on par with some of the latest Flesh Eaters or Skaven stuff (only those are bad externally as well).

Nerfing results in something being unusable

That may just be how we are using the word then.  To me nerfing is not making it unusable / worthless.  Nerfing is weakening it in a way, either by raising its points cost up to make it less optimal or by weakening its rules.  To me, you can weaken a unit (nerf it) in a way that brings it down on par with everything around it.  You can also over nerf it which would be to make it unusable.

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14 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

That may just be how we are using the word then.  To me nerfing is not making it unusable / worthless.  Nerfing is weakening it in a way, either by raising its points cost up to make it less optimal or by weakening its rules.  To me, you can weaken a unit (nerf it) in a way that brings it down on par with everything around it.  You can also over nerf it which would be to make it unusable.

I double checked the definition of nerf before I actually posted as I wanted to make sure I had it right in my head (I've excluded the foam rubber dart gun manufacturer 🤣 )

Quote

Nerf
verb
1. cause to be weak or ineffective

I actually think how we use terminology and phrasing is a hugely inconsistent across the whole of our hobby 😊  I also know that I'm a massive pedant when it comes to terminology - which I do attribute to working in a Quality Assurance department for a few years!  I think nerf is a good example of how it can cause confusion - to my eyes if a unit is nerfed then it's going to be unusable, whereas for you it's that unit is no longer as strong as it was.

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It’s late and I have an idea that will look ridiculous in the morning, but I’mma subject everyone to it anyhow.

What if witchbrew was a prayer? It would remove the certainty of applying it to a unit, limit how many you could use per turn, and also requires sacrificing a slot that could be used to cast another prayer.

In fluff terms, the hag queen needs to “bless” the witchbrew before giving it to a unit.

Would that work? It seems 60 pts would still be a reasonable cost, given the drop in reliability.

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