What would it take to balance Daughters of Khaine?

[angrycontra]

The way I see it, Dok have two primary issues:

1) Witchbrew. Bshock immunity and full wound rerolls and no roll needed? Sure the range is bad but the issue is simply this: dok players can just spam the ability as long as they need until they charge out of reach (if they charge out of reach that is) and by that point the damage is already done. And you know what's the worst of it? If turn roll comes and you (non-dok player) win the roll, you have to make choice between letting dok player have another turn and attacking you but losing their buffs, or you take the turn but dok player keeps all buffs, including bshock immunity. There's no winning in that scenario. People say that haq queen on foot is underpriced (which she is) but that is imo ignoring the big issue of witchbrew being too strong buff in the first place (and too easy to use). I feel that either removing the bshock immunity aspect or making it once per battle would instantly solve the issue.

2) Haggnar 5++ fnp. Dok are not supposed to be tough to kill army. Giving one army speed, power and survivability at the same time is ridiculous. What's even worse is that you get full hit rerolls from same temple making it easily the best choice.

Some point cost adjustments should be made for dok (both nerfs and buffs) but the 2 abilities I mentioned above are big issues that points can't fix. Same with gristlegore, you can't fix that with points. Faq or flat ghb rule change is needed. 

[Belper]

3 hours ago, angrycontra said:

The way I see it, Dok have two primary issues:

1) Witchbrew. Bshock immunity and full wound rerolls and no roll needed? Sure the range is bad but the issue is simply this: dok players can just spam the ability as long as they need until they charge out of reach (if they charge out of reach that is) and by that point the damage is already done. And you know what's the worst of it? If turn roll comes and you (non-dok player) win the roll, you have to make choice between letting dok player have another turn and attacking you but losing their buffs, or you take the turn but dok player keeps all buffs, including bshock immunity. There's no winning in that scenario. People say that haq queen on foot is underpriced (which she is) but that is imo ignoring the big issue of witchbrew being too strong buff in the first place (and too easy to use). I feel that either removing the bshock immunity aspect or making it once per battle would instantly solve the issue.

2) Haggnar 5++ fnp. Dok are not supposed to be tough to kill army. Giving one army speed, power and survivability at the same time is ridiculous. What's even worse is that you get full hit rerolls from same temple making it easily the best choice.

Some point cost adjustments should be made for dok (both nerfs and buffs) but the 2 abilities I mentioned above are big issues that points can't fix. Same with gristlegore, you can't fix that with points. Faq or flat ghb rule change is needed. 

Without witchbrew, witch aelves don't work. They go from being one of the best units in the game to being a unit you've probably never heard of. No battleshock immunity is already basically a deathblow, combining that with wounding on 4s, you'd never take them. At least not to attack with, a unit of 30 with bucklers acting as a 'shield of thorns' chaff unit would be okay...if you had the extra CP to Inspiring presence them each turn. No, most people would switch to all snakes. Making it once per battle makes it frustrating and stupid for the DoK player, without making life any better for their opponents.

The actual problem with Witchbrew is AoS2 nerfing shooting into the ground.

The Haggnarr bit is wrong too. It's not the 5+fnp, it's the prayer that lets you reroll it that's the problem. Haggnarr by itself is mostly just 'good'.

All you need to take the edge off of DoK is bump Hag Queens to 100,  and Witch Aelves to 110-330 (though even 300 would be fine) and lose the horde bonus on SoS. Your typical DoK list would be up 160+pts, which means you have to pick 2 between prayers, objective control, or a decent magic phase.

If you wanted a harsher nerf than that then DoK deserve compensation. Bloodstalkers are basically useless, lifetakers are literally JUST a tax you pay for Cauldron guard, Medusa are too expensive, the bloodwrack shrine is too expensive, warlocks are too expensive, Avatars of Khaine are too expensive, slaughter queens on foot are too expensive considering their command ability is unusable in most situations. At least some of these need to be fixed if you seriously want half the nerfs people in this thread have suggested.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Belper

[Belper]

21 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

My suggestions:

-Witch Brew requires CP or is 1/battle.

-Blessing of Khaine lets you reroll 1's to save.

-Hag Naar buff to FNP save is wholly within.

Main issue for me is that Hag Naar Witch Elves are one of the toughest units in the game while simultaneously being arguably the most damaging, and are also incredibly quick. And it just doesn't make sense that they're so tough when they're barely clothed little elves.

 

Why not just get rid of those abilities at that point? Honestly these are more insults than compromises.

Reroll 1s to save on a unit with a 6+ save? A 7" bubble trying to cover a unit that takes up more than 7" of space on its own?

What a joke.

[Dead Scribe]

Shooting nerfed to the ground is a pretty extreme statement.  Its certainly not as potent, but its also certainly not entirely useless.  Its just hard to optimize around as efficiently compared to what it used to be because there is a type of terrain that blocks line of sight now and hero sniping is not as easy due to look out sir.  I don't think those two things nerfed it into the ground however.

[Belper]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

Shooting nerfed to the ground is a pretty extreme statement.  Its certainly not as potent, but its also certainly not entirely useless.  Its just hard to optimize around as efficiently compared to what it used to be because there is a type of terrain that blocks line of sight now and hero sniping is not as easy due to look out sir.  I don't think those two things nerfed it into the ground however.

You kinda just described 'nerfed into the ground.'

Before AoS2(post Kurnoth nerf) , shooting was something used to either :

A. Let DoT, mixed order, and Aetherstrike wipe your army off the table or

B. Character sniping.

Now magic has mostly replaced shooting as an army strategy and character sniping is more difficult than ever. I'd argue that for most armies it's straight up not worth the investment (Woo! 360pts of Longstrikes to reliably kill a 60pt unbuffed Hag Queen!)

Combine that with just about every good shooting unit in the game catching nerfs leading up to or just after AoS 2, and shooting is in a pretty poor state overall. Last I knew even new skaven were devoting their points to hordes of bodies and magic rather than a lot of shooting.

It's still useful, it'll always be useful, and maybe gristlegore will help it come back a bit. As it stands now though, I haven't seen anything but a Celestar Ballista make a shooting attack in months.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

29 minutes ago, Belper said:

Last I knew even new skaven were devoting their points to hordes of bodies and magic rather than a lot of shooting.

 

Challenge accepted 

edit:

hero:300p

1warlock bombardier:100p(overseer  of destruction, esoteric warp resonated)

2x1warlpck bombardier:200p

battleline:180p

3x5skyre acolytes:180p

others:800p

10x1Rattling gun weapon teams:800p

Artillery:

4x1 warplighting cannons:720p

total:2000p

Edit: or another idea would be to take:

hero:400p

Thanqoul:400p (General)

battleline:180p

3x5acolytes:180p

others 

20x1Warpflamer weapon teams:1400p

endless spell:20p

shackles:20p

Edited May 3, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[The_Yellow_Sign]

1 hour ago, Belper said:

Why not just get rid of those abilities at that point? Honestly these are more insults than compromises.

Reroll 1s to save on a unit with a 6+ save? A 7" bubble trying to cover a unit that takes up more than 7" of space on its own?

What a joke.

They would obviously expand the Hag Naar bubble if they changed it to wholly within, as they have with literally every ability that's changed to wholly within...

[Grimrock]

34 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

They would obviously expand the Hag Naar bubble if they changed it to wholly within, as they have with literally every ability that's changed to wholly within...

*Cries in bloodstoker and bloodsecrator*

[prochuvi]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:27 PM, The_Yellow_Sign said:

They would obviously expand the Hag Naar bubble if they changed it to wholly within, as they have with literally every ability that's changed to wholly within...

Fyreslayer runesmitter changed from within 20" to wholy within 18" 

Edited May 5, 2019 by prochuvi

[angrycontra]

2 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Fyreslayer battlesmith aura have been changed from within 18" to wholy within 12" in the battletome (also with a nerf of reroll all saves to only +1 save)

No it wasn't. It was within 8" before, not 18". Plus I would hardly call rerolls to save change nerf, since it is one of many tools to stack save bonuses on units and there are other sources for rerolls of 1 to save (which are better now thanks to save stacking).

[Tropical Ghost General]

So interesting comments about taking out/sniping the heroes, but not all factions have those options. And often the hag queen in DoK is so well bubble wrapped that she's impossible to reach and take out until it's turn 3, by which time it's game over. 

The newer books will certainly give DoK some challenge but my spooky bois have nothing that can compete with any of these new power factions, no shooting that can snipe characters, no magic outside endless spells that can do any damage, no ways to combat always fight first abilities.

Whenever I play DoK I am guaranteed to do more damage to myself due to their saves and after saves and saves that have mortal wounds that bounce back, than I'll do damage to a unit that I'm attacking. And when your opponent rolls more dice on their wound rolls against you than they originally rolled to hit, the situation becomes completely futile. In my last 5 games against DoK the best I've done, other than taking out the odd unit of khinerai, is remove the blood cauldron which only happened in one of those 5 games, everything else of the DoK army has been left alive and in return I've yet to have a single model left standing. Yes army lists will play a part in that, but I spam bladegheists and grims so only being able to take out 330pts compared to 2000pts is not balance. 

Now I'm a firm believer in the 'get good' approach but certain armies/builds are so beyond the power curve that it's impossible to 'get good' against it. So while points will help with the balance it won't change players picking the most optimal hag narr list every time. And GW aren't in the habit of really making changes to books once released either 😢. 

[whispersofblood]

2 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So interesting comments about taking out/sniping the heroes, but not all factions have those options. And often the hag queen in DoK is so well bubble wrapped that she's impossible to reach and take out until it's turn 3, by which time it's game over. 

The newer books will certainly give DoK some challenge but my spooky bois have nothing that can compete with any of these new power factions, no shooting that can snipe characters, no magic outside endless spells that can do any damage, no ways to combat always fight first abilities.

Whenever I play DoK I am guaranteed to do more damage to myself due to their saves and after saves and saves that have mortal wounds that bounce back, than I'll do damage to a unit that I'm attacking. And when your opponent rolls more dice on their wound rolls against you than they originally rolled to hit, the situation becomes completely futile. In my last 5 games against DoK the best I've done, other than taking out the odd unit of khinerai, is remove the blood cauldron which only happened in one of those 5 games, everything else of the DoK army has been left alive and in return I've yet to have a single model left standing. Yes army lists will play a part in that, but I spam bladegheists and grims so only being able to take out 330pts compared to 2000pts is not balance. 

Now I'm a firm believer in the 'get good' approach but certain armies/builds are so beyond the power curve that it's impossible to 'get good' against it. So while points will help with the balance it won't change players picking the most optimal hag narr list every time. And GW aren't in the habit of really making changes to books once released either 😢. 

Mate. NH suck, they can't touch any of the tier 1 factions. Your problem is NH not DoK. They over hedged on unrendable saves, and then jacked up the killing power of all the new factions. NH were basically DoA. 

When it was just DoK, there was an argument, when it was just LoN and DoK there was still an argument. But since the launch of AoS2, basically every battletome has been on par powerwise, or as strong with more utility in the objective game. Bar the first two, and you can argue SCE are just structurally bad, since they have a lot of the abilities that a good faction needs. 

It's the same argument I have with people about Morrsarr.  These changes that people want will drop DoK into the abyss and I can't understand why anyone would want a faction that people play to end up like KO.

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

25 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Mate. NH suck, they can't touch any of the tier 1 factions

Tell me something I don't know already 😢.

[Dead Scribe]

You kinda just described 'nerfed into the ground.'

My description of nerfed into the ground is synonymous with useless.  I don't think taking a -1 modifier to hit when trying to snipe characters as suddenly becoming useless.

[JackStreicher]

23 hours ago, Belper said:

The actual problem with Witchbrew is AoS2 nerfing shooting into the ground.

Good joke, shooting is still too powerful (Shootcast Eternals as one example). The -1 to hit against characters means nothing, you still shoot them in turn one if you want to. That‘s a 16% worse chance than before, that‘s not drastic at all.

apart from that I think that all the other changes you suggested are simply making DoK useless, turning too many wheels results in a catastrophe for the army.

I agree on Witches losing the Horde Bonus, but Hags Shoulders be 80 pts not 100 and not 60.

Blood Stalkers should get 2 shots each or they should cost 100 pts per 5.

Khinerai should EITHER lose 20 points for each variant, they‘re just objective-grabbers which are too weak for any other task. OR they should get a damage increase by 1 to make them useful.

Another change, once Witches + gag Queen + Hagg Narr that one prayer have been nerfed is:

make all prayers also affect ranged weapons, so our snakes can actually harass.

also reduce the cost of avatars and make them instantly active if you field them separately.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by JackStreicher

[SwampHeart]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:00 AM, whispersofblood said:

It's the same argument I have with people about Morrsarr.  These changes that people want will drop DoK into the abyss and I can't understand why anyone would want a faction that people play to end up like KO.

Morsarr going up to 180 per 3 won't make IDK unplayable and neither will Hags at 100 and Wyches at 300 for a horde. 

[Dead Scribe]

Precisely.  They are just too cheap right now (I get it, they are one of my primary armies specifically because they are too cheap and highly optimal).  Bumping some point costs up they would still be highly effective.  I think that the binary thought of "its either highly optimal, or its worthless" is a little too extreme.

[Solaris]

I think it's just a matter of where people want the army to end up. DoK are currently a top tier army. Some people want them to remain as such, and just want the internal balance of the faction to be improved. Other people want the army taken down a notch or two, to be in line with currently weaker factions. Depending on what they wish for, people have different opinions of what should change about the army.

In the current meta there are several factions as strong as DoK. Since many of them are new, they will not be attended to in General's Handbook 2019. The options are to either nerf DoK (likely to happen), or to buff other factions up to their power level.

Personally, I would much prefer the latter, since that would allow me to continue bringing my army that I've spent so much time on to tournaments with the chance of bringing home the trophy if I play my cards right. If they are nerfed instead, the odds of podium will disappear. In that case I'll have to bring something else to compete.

[SwampHeart]

6 minutes ago, Solaris said:

 In that case I'll have to bring something else to compete.

So what non DoK players have been having to do since 2.0 came out? 

[Solaris]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

So what non DoK players have been having to do since 2.0 came out? 

Yeah, sure. What's your point?

What I'm saying is that I'd prefer them to remain strong, and for other factions to be brought up to their level. If you prefer them to be brought down instead, of course we'll have differing opinions on what should be changed in the faction.

[SwampHeart]

9 minutes ago, Solaris said:

What I'm saying is that I'd prefer them to remain strong, and for other factions to be brought up to their level.

Assuming they continue to use the GHB as a points adjustment vehicle rather than a rules adjustment one I don't see how armies can be brought up to DoK levels. The issues that create the gulf between DoK (and FEC) and other armies aren't just points. There are certain models in DoK that are undercosted, I don't think that's really debatable. Or are you telling me that 30 Wyches should be cheaper than 30 Daemonettes?  I don't want DoK to be non viable but clearly some of what needs to be done involves adjusting points up to account for how effective the army is at current. If they want to use the GHB to adjust army rules then I'm fine with bringing other armies up to DoK levels but that isn't what the GHB has been thus far. 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Solaris]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Assuming they continue to use the GHB as a points adjustment vehicle rather than a rules adjustment one I don't see how armies can be brought up to DoK levels. The issues that create the gulf between DoK (and FEC) and other armies aren't just points. There are certain models in DoK that are undercosted, I don't think that's really debatable. Or are you telling me that 30 Wyches should be cheaper than 30 Daemonettes?  I don't want DoK to be non viable but clearly some of what needs to be done involves adjusting points up to account for how effective the army is at current. 

Yeah, of course. I'd prefer Witchbrew and Hagg Nar to be rewritten, but that won't happen. Hags up to 100 or so is a given, they are just far too good currently. Witches and Sisters losing their horde discount might be fine, if other units are adjusted down to compensate. Larger changes will remove them from contention.

I think points can bridge the gap between DoK/LoN/Skaven/Slaanesh and others, but I don't think points can do anything to FEC. They just break some core mechanics of the game, and you either have access to an answer or you don't. The only thing that can be done is bringing FEC down, but that won't happen this year since the book is new.

[Skreech Verminking]

8 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Yeah, sure. What's your point?

What I'm saying is that I'd prefer them to remain strong, and for other factions to be brought up to their level. If you prefer them to be brought down instead, of course we'll have differing opinions on what should be changed in the faction.

I think point changes are probably the best thing to do hier.

The biggest problem when facing a Dok army are the Witch Aelves.

change their pointvalue to 110-120 and maybe take away the hordebonus, it would make them still a good choice but they won’t be as cheap as they once where and it probably will give other units a time to shine.

with changing the pointcost of the witch aelve we can bring the cost of the snake ladies a bit down, same for the winged aelve-things.

the hag should go up a maximum of 10-20points but not more since we already raised the pointcost of the witch aelves rather high.

with this few little changes they should be fine, still able to kick ass, but they won’t hopfully be as overpowered as they once where (although it always depended on what list you brought)

also anything we might write hier probably won’t change too much, since the ghb 2019 might already be written if we consider the releases of past years.

[whispersofblood]

Nah people have no idea how to fix complex systems. Even here people can't add up the points changes they are suggesting. And how that would change the book.

Only Hagg Narr does what people are complaining about. Point increases just force people to play the path that forced the point changes. 100 point hags don't bring DoK to a level that the factions people are championing can deal with, they just make sure that DoK can't fight the 5 best books. 

Why do we want factions playing at the level of the most limited when we have several very good factions examples of getting it right. We should be enthusiastically waiting for the remaining factions to join the good. Not dragging down the good in jealousy, of their competency.

[Grimrock]

26 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Why do we want factions playing at the level of the most limited when we have several very good factions examples of getting it right. We should be enthusiastically waiting for the remaining factions to join the good. Not dragging down the good in jealousy, of their competency.

The reason is that it can take a very long time for an army to get an update, and it sucks pretty hard getting curb stomped for 2 years. Maybe with this new update schedule we'll get lucky and GW will update everything by the end of the year, but even then there's no guarantee that an update will actually buff an army significantly. If there are obvious ways to trim the DoK down to par with most others then it makes sense for GW to do it in the regular process.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Grimrock