What would it take to balance Daughters of Khaine?

[SwampHeart]

28 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

30 hearthguard berzerkers would laugh at a charging pack of 30 witch elves.  Even with RR all hits and all wounds, 120 witch aelf attacks MIGHT take out 7 mediocrely buffed hearthguard berzerkers. Just wait until people can buy, build and paint them. 

Edit: Lets just say all 120 attacks hit and wound. Thats still only only 10 dead hearthguard. Who are probably immune to battleshock. 

The issue is how little the HBs do back whilst costing over double the cost of the witch elves who are themselves immune to battle shock. 

[Saodexan]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

30 hearthguard berzerkers would laugh at a charging pack of 30 witch elves.  Even with RR all hits and all wounds, 120 witch aelf attacks MIGHT take out 7 mediocrely buffed hearthguard berzerkers. Just wait until people can buy, build and paint them. 

Edit: Lets just say all 120 attacks hit and wound. Thats still only only 10 dead hearthguard. Who are probably immune to battleshock. 

Why compare 300 pts unit to a 600 pts unit. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

2 minutes ago, Saodexan said:

Why compare 300 pts unit to a 600 pts unit. 

Fair. Double that and it’s still only 10-14 dead hb. My point was to illustrate a power creep. A somewhat snarky way to say that one possible way to balance is simply wait for the book to be overtaken by others. 

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Saodexan said:

Why compare 300 pts unit to a 600 pts unit. 

To be fair to dish out 120 wounds you are talking about more than 600 pts of witches. 

Also the game isn't about point match ups, it's about in game match ups. Which is why play testing is a critical part of deciding on points costs.

No equation for account for the fact that a unit of A has to play in a world of units from A to ZZZ. 

[ledha]

3 hours ago, Lucentia said:

I have seen a unit of Plague Monks do so, however!

Edit:  I should probably expand on this slightly facetious, not particularly useful comment!  I don't think comparing across army books is often very useful in terms of balance, though I would say Plague Monks are a fairly similar unit to Witch Aelves in many ways.

 

The thing is, plague monks die as soon as you watch them with angry eyes, while wytch aelves can tank better than blightkings

[The_Yellow_Sign]

My suggestions:

-Witch Brew requires CP or is 1/battle.

-Blessing of Khaine lets you reroll 1's to save.

-Hag Naar buff to FNP save is wholly within.

Main issue for me is that Hag Naar Witch Elves are one of the toughest units in the game while simultaneously being arguably the most damaging, and are also incredibly quick. And it just doesn't make sense that they're so tough when they're barely clothed little elves.

 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

On 5/2/2019 at 3:23 AM, Dead Scribe said:

No one that plays an army will willingly want it to be nerfed lol.

I  play Beasts of Chaos but I still want Tzaangor Enlightened to be nerfed because I dislike the fact that spamming them is pretty much mandatory to be competitive. I'd like GW to compensate by buffing or dropping points on all the other grossly underpowered or overcosted units in the book like Gors, Bullgors, Cygor, Ghorgon, Chimera, Jabberslythe, Skyfires, etc.

[Dead Scribe]

But overall you don't want the army to be nerfed.  You want the army to be elevated in power and you want internal balance to be stabalized.

[Lord Veshnakar]

On 5/1/2019 at 11:23 AM, Dead Scribe said:

No one that plays an army will willingly want it to be nerfed lol.

I have played Daughters since before they got a battletome and I want them to be re-balanced, not nerfed. Everyone at my game store hates when I use them and it kind of sucks. I have to take close to a full 400 points of allies and avoid witch aelf/sisters of slaughter hordes and multiple hags just to not have to get those glares across the table. My list looks very far and away from the standard DoK netlist when I do use them and I still get the side eye just because of the rep they get as the OP tournament army.

Unless you only care about winning games and not the experience of your opponent then you will want the army to be "balanced". 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lord Veshnakar

[Joseph Mackay]

3 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

30 hearthguard berzerkers would laugh at a charging pack of 30 witch elves.  Even with RR all hits and all wounds, 120 witch aelf attacks MIGHT take out 7 mediocrely buffed hearthguard berzerkers. Just wait until people can buy, build and paint them. 

Edit: Lets just say all 120 attacks hit and wound. Thats still only only 10 dead hearthguard. Who are probably immune to battleshock. 

the differince is Witches are the basic troops of DOK whereas Hearthguard Berzerkers are a dedicated elite unit for Fyreslayers. its not a fair comparison

[Lord Veshnakar]

21 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

the differince is Witches are the basic troops of DOK whereas Hearthguard Berzerkers are a dedicated elite unit for Fyreslayers. its not a fair comparison

I have already played against the 30 strong HB block and its not that bad for DoK to handle. You can lock it down pretty dang good with the shackles. Sure you might not be able to wipe them out with a 2+ rerolling 1s and a 4+ ward but just snipe out their priests and battlesmiths. Fyreslayers are all about their characters and a unit of 10 doomfires instant gibs their foot characters with doomfire unless they have auric hearthguard nearby.

Not to mention Witches cause MWs on 5+ with martyrs sacrifice, on 6s with their shields,  and would have a 4+ save in combat, a 5+ save after, and can reroll their 5+ Hag Narr save. They will likely be rerolling wounds and maybe hits too.  Witches also have run and charge inherent and a naturally higher move. 


And unless you ally it in or take the artifact in an army already stretched thin for artifacts then the fyreslayers have no way to dispel so you can likely count on mindrazor or the aforementioned doomfire as well. 

That's as an aside though. My point is that DoK really do need to be toned down, and anyone that follows any major tournaments or has friends that speak with them candidly will tell you that. It's the ones that bought 90 witch aelves that will claim everything is fine.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lord Veshnakar

[InSaint]

Serve you all right for mistreating Morathi in the Age of Sigmar!!!

• Malerion not giving her property
• Sigmar rejecting her advances
• Nagash striking her down

Boys, lay down your pride. Wipe the salty tears from your eyes. Morathi will take you back. 

Jokes aside, I play DoK and yes I admit Hag Narr is very overpowered at the moment. They are so strong I don't even bother charging them anymore. Anything that charges them dies instead from the shields MW and retaliation. Brings a whole new meaning to the term passive aggressive. lol

But I ain't sorry about it in competitive settings. I mean your opponents are also going to bring equal amount of unfriendly cheese, so bring it on!

If I really wanted to have a good time in a casual setting, I usually play an unorthodox DoK build for fun and laughter.

Edited May 3, 2019 by InSaint

[Inquisitorsz]

I think as a very broad general rule no unit should be able to do everything extremely well. Seems like witchelves do it all, and for an affordable cost and as a battleline unit. 

Also I think a general goal of any game is to make every unit somehow viable, and nothing be a "must take".
Easier said than done of course, but there's plenty of armies that have completely garbage units that no one ever takes. 

[SaberArtoria22]

4 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I have already played against the 30 strong HB block and its not that bad for DoK to handle. You can lock it down pretty dang good with the shackles. Sure you might not be able to wipe them out with a 2+ rerolling 1s and a 4+ ward but just snipe out their priests and battlesmiths. Fyreslayers are all about their characters and a unit of 10 doomfires instant gibs their foot characters with doomfire unless they have auric hearthguard nearby.

Not to mention Witches cause MWs on 5+ with martyrs sacrifice, on 6s with their shields,  and would have a 4+ save in combat, a 5+ save after, and can reroll their 5+ Hag Narr save. They will likely be rerolling wounds and maybe hits too.  Witches also have run and charge inherent and a naturally higher move. 
 

I find it interesting how you point out that Fyreslayers are all about their characters and sniping them out is how to fight them, but seem to be ignoring the fact that the exact same tactic works wonders on DoK too. Funny enough it also works on any army who gains a lot of their power from the buffs given by their heroes.

 

[Lord Veshnakar]

15 minutes ago, SaberArtoria22 said:

I find it interesting how you point out that Fyreslayers are all about their characters and sniping them out is how to fight them, but seem to be ignoring the fact that the exact same tactic works wonders on DoK too. Funny enough it also works on any army who gains a lot of their power from the buffs given by their heroes.

 

Well not exactly.  Fyreslayers are much more prone to magic/mortal wound sniping and endless spells/shenanigans because they lack inherent options for dispelling if you don't take the ash rune artifact and if you are rolling without allies. And all of the lodges have command trait and magic item requirements so to get an extra artifact you have to take a battalion to get the ash rune for two dispel attempts and there are many more tasty items than the ash rune.

You can snipe DoK Characters sure, most notably the hags, but witch aelves even with just the hag narr cauldron nearby still whoop total behind.  Fyreslayers almost require character support to be good. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Lord Veshnakar

[JackStreicher]

13 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

Fyreslayers are much more prone to magic/mortal wound sniping and endless spells/shenanigans because they lack inherent options for dispelling without allies. 

🧐

they are just as likely to get sniped off like all the others, though FS mostly have  a safe after the safe?

FS get strong bonuses to despelling and they have a lot of powerful prayers that can‘t be despelled. I think I remember that they can auto-ban a spell? Or was it -2 to it? 🤔

[Lord Veshnakar]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

🧐

they are just as likely to get sniped off like all the others, though FS mostly have  a safe after the safe?

FS get strong bonuses to despelling and they have a lot of powerful prayers that can‘t be despelled. I think I remember that they can auto-ban a spell? Or was it -2 to it? 🤔

Fyreslayer characters only have their armor, and none are higher than 4+. You can get that to 2+ with buffs but they are still prone to mortal wounds from magic. I have blasted my friends characters off with my doomfire and pit of shades pretty reliably.   They have no ward saves.  DOK do though because Hag Narr.  And Fyreslayers have no dispels from characters.

Their only option is one artifact you can take for a runemaster or runesmiter that lets you attempt to dispel two spells as if you were a wizard. But like I said, most people intend to play with lodges and all of the lodges have artifacts you have to take first, so besides Greyfyrd to get another you would have to take a battalion, all of which are over 100 points. 


This topic is getting a little derailed though.  Below are the tournament standings from AOS 2.1 and 2.2 from honest wargamer. This should kind of speak that something needs to be done to balance things a bit.


 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Lord Veshnakar

[JackStreicher]

13 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

Their only option is one artifact you can take for a runemaster or runesmiter that lets you attempt to dispel two spells as if you were a wizard. But like I said, most people intend to play with lodges and all of the lodges have artifacts you have to take first, so to get another you would have to take a battalion, all of which are over 100 points. 

I stand corrected then =}

 

the way I read it is that not DoK are an issue but Hagg Nar is an issue. So maybe just tune down that temple‘s power a bit

Edited May 3, 2019 by JackStreicher
Stop that autocorrect stupid iPhone! -_-

[Joseph Mackay]

2 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

Fyreslayer characters only have their armor, and none are higher than 4+. You can get that to 2+ with buffs but they are still prone to mortal wounds from magic. I have blasted my friends characters off with my doomfire and pit of shades pretty reliably.   They have no ward saves.  DOK do though because Hag Narr.  And Fyreslayers have no dispels from characters.

Their only option is one artifact you can take for a runemaster or runesmiter that lets you attempt to dispel two spells as if you were a wizard. But like I said, most people intend to play with lodges and all of the lodges have artifacts you have to take first, so to get another you would have to take a battalion, all of which are over 100 points. 


This topic is getting a little derailed though.  Below are the tournament standings from AOS 2.1 and 2.2 from honest wargamer. This should kind of speak that something needs to be done to balance things a bit.


 

how the hell do Flesh-Eater Courts have 20 Top 3 placings already?

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

how the hell do Flesh-Eater Courts have 20 Top 3 placings already?

Gristlegore, it‘s almost impossible to beat.

[AaronWilson]

For me, the thing that gets me about the DoK is their resilence. I don't mind Witch Elves re-rolling to re-rolling to wound -1 rend and doubling hits on a 6, yes it's very killy but in a world of double fight first gristlegore or hearthguard berserkers things melt. It's the fact they have the 5+ re-rollable after save that leaves me thinking "Well does the weakness lie?"

I played a game against Hagnarr at SCGT. I got 1 unit of 30 elves down to 1, it took my whole army to do so. I can deal with the immense output of damage but the resilence leaves me scratching my head. 

[AaronWilson]

35 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Gristlegore, it‘s almost impossible to beat.

Gristlegore completely defines have / have nots. If you can't play around the opponent being able to fight first, twice in the combat phase you can't handle gristlegore. 

[JackStreicher]

17 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

Gristlegore completely defines have / have nots. If you can't play around the opponent being able to fight first, twice in the combat phase you can't handle gristlegore. 

Might be. Since I haven‘t faced FeC (I only play them myself) I‘ve only seen this army from one side. That Court is plainly broken though.

Edited May 3, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Solaris]

5 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

 

AoS 2.1 stats are hardly relevant anymore, the 2.2 table is what you should be looking at. Either way, DoK are still a power house, of course, but they now have really stiff competition from FEC, Skaven, LoN and to some extent Slaanesh. BoC and Tzeentch builds with 12+ Enlightened on Discs are also extremely strong. In many ways, the top tier meta is rather healthy now, with many armies fighting for the top spots. This is in stark contrast to AoS 2.1, where DoK and LoN were extremely dominant.

If DoK are to remain a competitive choice in the current meta, but be better internally balanced, some changes need to be made. Hags need to go up to 100 or 120 points. Blood Stalkers are useless and need to go down significantly. Even then, they will only be used if they work as an efficient combat unit, since their shooting is so subpar. Warlocks could probably go down to 140, and Lifetakers to 70. The Slaughter Queen should go down to 80. She will then primarily be a cheap priest unit, since noone in their right mind takes her as general. The Hag on Cauldron could go up to 330 to match the Slaughter Queen. The Avatar is a joke unit and will be competitively irrelevant regardless of price. Witch Aelves and Sisters of Slaughter should probably not have their horde discounts, but if they lose that the army is quickly approaching tier 2.

The ideal change would be to fix the temples (Hagg Nar in particular), but that's not going to happen any time soon.

[Skreech Verminking]

17 hours ago, Lucentia said:

1)I have seen a unit of Plague Monks do so, however!

2)Edit:  I should probably expand on this slightly facetious, not particularly useful comment!  I don't think comparing across army books is often very useful in terms of balance, though I would say Plague Monks are a fairly similar unit to Witch Aelves in many ways.

3) Certainly I think there are a lot of Skaven lists that Daughters will struggle against.

4)I feel that you could adjust DoK reasonably enough via points changes without having to too heavily mess with their rules, others have said it, but Hags to 100-120 and Witches to 120/300 would almost fix the more egregious combos by itself.  (Though I will note that with the rise of things that always hit first and stronger shooting I think the field will level around DoK in any case.)

1)yeah forgot that we Stil had plague monks😅.

2)yes they are quit strong.

3) there are definitely a few.

If I’m not mistaken then Dok will struggle when fighting against a skaven list that has the endless spell known as warplightning vortex with them and any other spell that can slow the Witch Aelves down(Warpgale, dreaded ....)

4)yes points adjustment are probably the best bet right now.