What would it take to balance Daughters of Khaine?

[Double Misfire]

I normally find a penny on the underside of the base helps balance precariously posed models with asymmetrical weight distribution

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

Rework temples since hag nar or whatever it's called is the only one I ever see played.

Bloodwracks should make stalkers battleline, I've seen this argued a lot and I agree with it.

Cap horde sizes for wych aelves and no cap discount.

Remove general restrictions on command abilities, slaughter queens on foot are useless otherwise.

Price hike hags, because a 60pt model should not do the same stuff as support models twice it's price.

Rework the avatar, they're a wet noodle until turn 3 so their an easy kill unless your opponent spams hags to puke out prayers.

Rework Morathi, you have to start hurting her from turn 1 to hope to kill her in a 2-3hr tournament game, had too many situations where she stays back for two turns and then rushes up and ties up my skeletons or slaanesh heroes and makes stops any momentum they had for the rest of the game. She is the only reason I can still justify the existence of instant kill rules like slayer of kings or dark temptations. Remove the 3 wounds a turn rule and drop her price. Alternate take is to bump up the wound cap to 5 so she can't be killed outright first turn but can be killed within 3 turns reasonably.

[SaberArtoria22]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

People who are suggesting a 20 or 40 point increase to hag queens clearly havent been playing a GW game for very long. The pendulum will swing the other way with nearly equal and opposite ferocity when the nerfs come. It happens all the time. Most recent example is Tzeetch. Hope the DoK players enjoyed thier moment in the sun.

Hagg queen needs to double in cost

Witch elves price needs to go up to 120.

Slaughter Queen needs to not have the general requirement to use command.

Both Melusai should be battleline if medusa OR morathi are general.

hagg narr is the issue, and short of re-working the temple completely I'm not sure how to address it.  A glass cannon army should not be able to deflect 33% of all damage. 

You’re forgetting GW’s love of elves and Space elves.

plus you can only get the Hag in a $100 box and Witches are 10 for $60  so don’t be surprised if they dont give them a very light touch 

Edited May 1, 2019 by SaberArtoria22

[sal4m4nd3r]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Ghosts have the cairn wraith. which has no command ability, 4 wounds, 4+ethereal, 3 attacks (4+/3+/-1/2). 6's to hit do 2 mortals instead of rolling to wound. And can re-roll hits against units with 5 or more models. All of this excellence for 60pts. Definitely up there with had queen in terms of 'like for like' 😂

I don’t see how a hero that does 1.3 damage (2.0 with re rolls..not taking into account the mortal wounds, so I suppose  a slight increase in expected damage output is necessary) can compare to a character that imparts rr all wounds and battleshock immunity for large blocks of witches that can get up to 120 attacks. Battleshock should be a huge weakness for large blocks of witches..but an unblockable 3+ roll is all it takes to completely mitigate the unit’s largest weakness. It’s not even in the same galaxy in terms of comparables.

The cairn wraith is a 60 hero whom can add some damage, contribute a “death save”, and hold an Artefact. A hag queen completely removes the biggest weakness of a unit that has been dominating 3/4 of the field. 

Witch brew should cost a command point. Possibly IN ADDITION requiring a 3+ roll. Maybe teased down to a 2+ if it costs a command point.

Edited May 1, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[King Taloren]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

make the roll of '1' suffers 1 dmg as opposed to 1 MW, want it to bypass saves, and shrug saves

If going to do that then it needs to apply to all priests in the game. Not just Daughters.

[whispersofblood]

47 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

If going to do that then it needs to apply to all priests in the game. Not just Daughters.

They don't all take dmg to begin with.

[Dead Scribe]

No one that plays an army will willingly want it to be nerfed lol.

[Mutton]

8 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

i dont think Blood Stalkers are bad, i think the problem is everyone compares them to similiar units (Kurnoth Hunters, Tzaangor Skyfires) which makes them look bad. if they get a points decrease they should match Blood Sisters, not end up cheaper.

the Morathi situation with making Melusai battleline, its a balance thing. i know from a background perspective it makes no sense currently, but i think its to balance Morathi a bit as unlike other named characters she doesnt have the same restrictions (having her Temple keyword locked for example). i love the Melusae units and id hate to see them nerfed in any way, but if you let Morathi unlock battleline status i bet you theyll be considered op

Blood Stalkers are dreadful, and I don't really know how anyone can defend them. A 5-stalker unit can (at max) do 5 wounds per shooting phase...and this assumes every single one of them hits and wounds their target. Statistically, they'll do 1-2 wounds per shooting phase. For 160 points. As I said, these would be terrible stats even at 100 points. They were clearly "balanced" during the time when GW was stamping down on shooting in general, and they desperately need an overhaul.

Morathi doesn't need balancing in that way. Characters already have the disadvantage of not being able to use artifacts or command traits. In the current world of DoK, you would NEVER want Morathi as your general because she wouldn't get the Hagg Narr command trait (which is part of why temples need to be revamped and she needs to come down in points). Secondly, Blood Sisters aren't going to be considered op just because they're battleline. People use them as battleline already with Medusae. DoK players NEED more ways to play than just spamming Witch Elves, I think everyone will agree on that, and more options is not a bad thing.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Blood Stalkers are dreadful, and I don't really know how anyone can defend them. A 5-stalker unit can (at max) do 5 wounds per shooting phase...and this assumes every single one of them hits and wounds their target. Statistically, they'll do 1-2 wounds per shooting phase. For 160 points. As I said, these would be terrible stats even at 100 points. They were clearly "balanced" during the time when GW was stamping down on shooting in general, and they desperately need an overhaul.

Morathi doesn't need balancing in that way. Characters already have the disadvantage of not being able to use artifacts or command traits. In the current world of DoK, you would NEVER want Morathi as your general because she wouldn't get the Hagg Narr command trait (which is part of why temples need to be revamped and she needs to come down in points). Secondly, Blood Sisters aren't going to be considered op just because they're battleline. People use them as battleline already with Medusae. DoK players NEED more ways to play than just spamming Witch Elves, I think everyone will agree on that, and more options is not a bad thing.

Blood stalkers should definitely get more attacks at the very least or maybe some poison special rule for mortal wound potential. I've got to disagree with you on morathi though, she's pricey for sure, but in a tournament setting with time constraints where you usually won't get past turn 3, she becomes an insane wall that can shut down the momentum of key units just by existing. Play her right and your opponents beat stick or big horde of whatever might as well not be on the table anymore once she gets into them on turn 2 or 3. I also feel heartrenders or lifetakers could use some adjusting to be more viable options but I'm not sure exactly what should be done with them.

[Overread]

12 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

No one that plays an army will willingly want it to be nerfed lol.

This is both true and not true. Honestly I think there's more pushback mostly because a lot of balance adjustment discussions often revolve around "make things more expensive in points to balance it." Which is fine and a very valid approach, but raising points costs of models means putting less toys on the table. Even a small raise here and there can make a big difference when you add things up. 

 

As gamers and model makers/collectors we like to have our models on the table and hate to think that we've invested into an army or model force that suddenly is going to reduce in size of what we can put on the table at once. It's why I prefer balance to adjust the stats of models, change their performance rather than their cost so that armies remain valid just not as brokenly powerful. 

 

 

 

Also I agree that Blood stalkers should get something better on their ranged attacks. Right now they are a skirmish unit that wants to be in close combat more than they want to be ranged; but their whole army position is to be the ranged unit in an army that otherwise does the close combat better with other units. They are a jack of all trades who can't do either best and who have to compete with efficent powerful close combat units that will make it into combat. 

I'd love to see their close combat stats reduce, but their ranged go up. Make them more of a gun platform that can defend itself rather than an assault unit that can't excel in either role

Edited May 1, 2019 by Overread

[ledha]

A good way to nerf them without changing point cost or even the profile would be to put all infantry on 32mm base.

Edited May 1, 2019 by ledha

[Overread]

1 minute ago, ledha said:

A good way to nerf them without changing point cost or even the profile would be to put all infantry on 32mm base.

Might work, but at the same time chances are there'd be a race between the manufacture and packaging department of GW and the rabid hoards of DoK players to take bloody revenge upon you for trying to force a base size change

[Dead Scribe]

I guess... we have three DOK players and all three are adamant that their book is perfectly fine and that the problem is that people just don't know how to play against them properly.

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

It's why I prefer balance to adjust the stats of models, change their performance rather than their cost so that armies remain valid just not as brokenly powerful. 

That's fine for when GW redoes the Battle Tome but that's not what they've done with GHB. GHB is for points adjustments and yeah it sucks that your ludicrously undercosted models will go up but then again it sucks for everyone who doesn't play DoK to play against 60 point hags. 

[whispersofblood]

3 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

I guess... we have three DOK players and all three are adamant that their book is perfectly fine and that the problem is that people just don't know how to play against them properly.

This is also a thing, where people refuse to adapt to the mission and the opponent. People  want their army to do the thing they want it to do at all times in all battleplans, and that just isn't a thing for almost any faction. It is why missions like Total commitment, Relocation Orb and Places of Arcane Power exist, and it is a critical part of what makes battling amongst drastically different archetypes possible.

If you had played WHFB for any number of years seriously you understood how important this is, battleline became so static that you could often walk out a game from the deployment phase.

[DantePQ]

So much whinning 

1. DoK aren't that OP, they do require a lot of skill to play well. SCGT results show how great Jack and Ben are as a players, there was no other DoK in Top12 and those top two were played by decorated players. Also Skavens, FEC and Nagash aren't worse some may argue that FEC and Skavens are better. 

2. All changes DoK need is : 

- Hags up to 100-120 

- Witch Aelves up to 120/300 

- Heartrenders up to 100 

- Stalkers down to 120 and batteline with Medusa 

That would be enough, it would nerf Hags so it would be difficult to take more then 1 and Witches. Most armies will go up like 100-140 pts and that's a lot for such army. 

Or that talk about changing Temples etc not gonna happen. 

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Or that talk about changing Temples etc not gonna happen. 

It will happen eventually whenever they get another book - but we have no idea how far away that is.  It could happen soon or it could happen in a few years.  There is no way to tell aside from GW announcing it.

It is highly unlikely to happen outside of a new book though - since GW seem very very reluctant to make these sorts of changes in the General's Handbook or in their errata document.  But that does not mean it should not happen.  And honestly, the only temple that really should change is Hagg Nar.  The fact that it is so amazingly ubiquitous indicates that either the other ones are all really bad or else Hagg Nar is far too useful.  I like to use Occam's Razor for initial assessments and so I lean towards saying the single one that is used the vast majority of the time is probably the issue.  But when you examine the abilities it becomes clear why that Temple is so heavily favored.  It grants both a substantial offensive boost to the whole army and also gives a substantial defensive command ability.

We can argue all sorts of things, but my opinion is that an army that is heavily built around being on the extreme offensive end of the spectrum should probably be fairly poor at defense.

All that said, I don't think the Daughters of Khaine army as it currently exists has big problems.  But that does not mean that they may not be a bit better than they should be - which I do think is the case.

[Skreech Verminking]

Well Dok was one of the first armies that got a battletome for 2.0.

So changing whole warscrolls and ability’s will be a bit hard to do.

I guess for a good step some slight point increases and point decreases might do the trick for the Daughters of khaine.

Witch Aelves are one of the best units in the whole game. They tear through enemy better then most if not all elite units from other armies.

So a slight point change might help there.

the priest are a fantastic buffing unit.

having her go up a notch (at least to 80/100p) would make it maybe a bit more balanced.

the Shooting of the Doks aren’t really that great,  ringing them down a few points would make them maybe viable to take again.

As for changes in the war scrolls, we will probably not see one until more or less all of the armies who are battletome less aren’t anymore.

so maybe in a year or so, the a I Lott’s might be Changed to wholly within,

but until then a point increase/decrease should do the trick.

 

 

[Qaz]

17 hours ago, ledha said:

A good way to nerf them without changing point cost or even the profile would be to put all infantry on 32mm base.

Or change dagger melee range to 0.5". I mean they are daggers, why would daggers have the same reach as a longsword.  :v

[Overread]

3 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Or change dagger melee range to 0.5". I mean they are daggers, why would daggers have the same reach as a longsword.  :v

Cause they are held by acrobatic Aelves

[Qaz]

30 minutes ago, Overread said:

Cause they are held by acrobatic Aelves

acrobatic murder elves 😧 

On another note, most of the new battletomes can fight DoK pretty well I found. They aren't overpowering the DoK but are very close in terms of "power level" to the DoK so I reckon they use DoK as the benchmark power level. 

[Overread]

Honestly considering that the 2019 GHB is coming out almost in the middle of Battletomes being released I hope its more of a soft adjustment and focuses on adding depth and battleplans and perhaps consolidating some of the compendiums of FAQ/Errata etc.... Rather than making big balancing sweeps. I'd say the 2020 should be that kind of book because by then we should have pretty much every single current army with a Battletome (and likely at least one of the new Aelven armies) 

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, Qaz said:

acrobatic murder elves 😧 

On another note, most of the new battletomes can fight DoK pretty well I found. They aren't overpowering the DoK but are very close in terms of "power level" to the DoK so I reckon they use DoK as the benchmark power level. 

I have never seen a unit of clanrats overpowering or coming near the the power of destruction the Doks can pull out of their magical wizard hats.

[Lucentia]

I have seen a unit of Plague Monks do so, however!

Edit:  I should probably expand on this slightly facetious, not particularly useful comment!  I don't think comparing across army books is often very useful in terms of balance, though I would say Plague Monks are a fairly similar unit to Witch Aelves in many ways.

DoK is my primary army,  so pinch of salt on my opinions, it does seem to me like the more recent books (The AoS 2 ones, if you like) are geared towards a similar level with one another, and DoK was just the first book of that level.  Certainly I think there are a lot of Skaven lists that Daughters will struggle against.

I feel that you could adjust DoK reasonably enough via points changes without having to too heavily mess with their rules, others have said it, but Hags to 100-120 and Witches to 120/300 would almost fix the more egregious combos by itself.  (Though I will note that with the rise of things that always hit first and stronger shooting I think the field will level around DoK in any case.)

Could Hagg Nar be changed?  Sure, probably, I'd expect a new book to change all the temples (or stormhosts, or enclaves, or any of that non-model enshrined stuff for any faction), DoK was the first book with the Stormhost-style rules really, and they are not as restrictive as those that have come after for the most part (Only limiting either an artefact or command trait, never both).  Personally I suspect all you'd really have to do is remove Blessing of Khaine from the book, replace it with a prayer for Run and Charge or something to bias things more towards Melusai/Khinerai, it's a niche defensive upgrade in a mostly offensive force which only really sees play in Hagg Nar lists.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lucentia

[sal4m4nd3r]

10 hours ago, Qaz said:

acrobatic murder elves 😧 

On another note, most of the new battletomes can fight DoK pretty well I found. They aren't overpowering the DoK but are very close in terms of "power level" to the DoK so I reckon they use DoK as the benchmark power level. 

30 hearthguard berzerkers would laugh at a charging pack of 30 witch elves.  Even with RR all hits and all wounds, 120 witch aelf attacks MIGHT take out 7 mediocrely buffed hearthguard berzerkers. Just wait until people can buy, build and paint them. 

Edit: Lets just say all 120 attacks hit and wound. Thats still only only 10 dead hearthguard. Who are probably immune to battleshock. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r