firebat Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 6 hours ago, RuneBrush said: I double checked the definition of nerf before I actually posted as I wanted to make sure I had it right in my head (I've excluded the foam rubber dart gun manufacturer 🤣 ) I actually think how we use terminology and phrasing is a hugely inconsistent across the whole of our hobby 😊 I also know that I'm a massive pedant when it comes to terminology - which I do attribute to working in a Quality Assurance department for a few years! I think nerf is a good example of how it can cause confusion - to my eyes if a unit is nerfed then it's going to be unusable, whereas for you it's that unit is no longer as strong as it was. I don't think i've ever seen it used in the context of actually making something unusable. The only time I saw that as a stated goal was when Blizzard nerfed Demonology Warlocks in Warlords of Draenor to disincentivise people from playing the spec because it was complicated to play. It still wasn't useless though. Any competent player could still do well with it and do all the content if they wanted. I mean there are always people that just take any nerf what so ever as making what they like unusable but that's not usually the actual case (Like in this thread the Look Out Sir! rule making shooting useless). It's not like any of the talk in this thread is about making DoK worthless. Also it's entirely possible to nerf something to make it weak compared to what it was before and it still be very strong. Google's definitions are apparently from the Oxford dictionary which actually says: Quote VERB [WITH OBJECT]US informal 1Cause to be weak or ineffective. ‘the constant zone running nerfed Michigan's pass rush’ ‘the government is nerfing our upload speeds’ 1.1 (of a video game developer) reduce the power of (a character, weapon, etc.) in a new instalment or update of a video game. ‘ever since they nerfed the shield, the game just isn't as fun’ ‘the most used rifle has been subjected to nerfing’ As an aside my personal peeve is the term "viable". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Scribe Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) Quote I actually think how we use terminology and phrasing is a hugely inconsistent across the whole of our hobby I am fully behind you on this. A lot of arguments and what not come down often to a word being used in a way the other either disagrees with or has a different definition for. In regards to nerf, I've always used it or had it used to mean to weaken something, but the to make it unusable part was never implied barring the discussion about binary optimization (that being its either optimal so take, or not fully optimal so never take or useless). ie: "that mechanic needs nerfed" is a common statement across our hobby but I don't think anyone who is reasonable is really saying "that mechanic needs to be weakened to the point of unusability" but rather "that mechanic needs weakened so that it is not so apparently over powered". Edited May 9, 2019 by Dead Scribe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) On 5/9/2019 at 2:07 AM, RuneBrush said: I actually think how we use terminology and phrasing is a hugely inconsistent across the whole of our hobby QFT. Nerf, OP, meta, scrub, obsolete, invalidate, powercreep, viable, autowin/autolose, "everyone knows", common sense, obvious, Sigmarine ... The list is huge. I've said it before and I'll say it a million times more, words matter. This is especially true in a text forum. You cannot read faces, hear vocal tone, or have immediate, real time banter to develop a coversation. When we misuse words in forums, in whatever way (wrong definition, ineffective shortcut, unintentionally insulting, stating opinion as fact, overly assumptive, misleading, etc.), it's counterproductive to having a meaningful discussion. Edited May 10, 2019 by Sleboda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) I've always used nerf as 'make less effective' . If you hit someone with a baseball bat, it hurts. If you hit someone with a baseball bat wrapped in "nerf foam" it hurts way less. Ironically, people use the term "hit with the nerf bat" as a means of indicating they were weakened a lot... though... if you were hit with a "nerf bat" it shouldn't hurt that badly so I'd rather be hit with a nerf bat than hit with a bat and nerfed 😬 I like "nerf" when the effectiveness of a unit is reduced and "nerfed into the shadow realms" when a unit is ruined. Maybe we could say "Foam grand slam" if a unit is ruined. Keep those bat similies going. Edited May 9, 2019 by Vextol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravinsild Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 (edited) I’m going to be honest I had the same idea and definition of nerf as Deadscribe. Nerfing ALWAYS means making weaker, but you can have degrees of nerfing from a very light or slight nerf to a full on nerf hammer smashing it into a worthless state and any gradient in between. I will say that I often don’t really strictly apply rules as written in some cases. Apparently nothing in the Daemon Princes warscroll says it has the flying ability, it simply says “some have wings and move 12 inches” which implies flight but it doesn’t have the keyword and also never explicitly says it. I use a bit of I guess “mental grease” to autocorrect such oversights as the developers meaning this or that but I also never explicitly look for breaking the game or look for loopholes or rules I can exploit. I just sort of streamline it all in a more casual way of face value. What I mean by that is the whole vibe, from lore to rules to everything considered to make just a “this unit acts like this” so I run daemon princes as being able to fly 👀 Edited May 9, 2019 by Ravinsild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poryague Posted May 10, 2019 Share Posted May 10, 2019 after maggot kin we moved to aos 2. Yet some of those books before ghb 2018 did not move completely to wholly within and unmodified rolls. This would benifit maggot kin if there stuff moved to unmoddifed rolls. While dok would be slightly weeker if moved to wholly within on more of there stuff. Maybe some point changes too. We Also noticed some armies cant have it all especially armies that have large tool boxes you got to pick a direction to go you can have some tools on side but not a lot sce fits that. Skaven has a massive tool box and doesnt necessarilly need to make hard decisions that can be a problem. Making it easy to build against multiple scenarios. FEC is a very focused list and comes off as a rock paper scissor scenario. Where to deal with it armies have to specialize to a point it becomes a problem for them in other areas. Assuming they even have tools in the toolbox to deal with in a meaningful way. Then how are they deciding points? Thats not clear is it to sale models. Is it based on the new battletome the models belong to. Is it taking in consderation how they interact with other battletomes with the grand alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrod Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 -Hag Queens increase to 80 points (May honestly need to be 90 in a vacuum but alongside other point increases that may be too steep) -Hag Queen on Cauldron increase to 330 -Slaughter Queen on Cauldron increase to 350 -Witch Elves increase to 110, 30 discount 300 (In line with Daemonettes) -SoS remain 120, 30 discount 320 -Avatar of Khaine decrease to 160 (I don't feel like players that take a Hag queen and a foot slogging Avatar should be penalized with a points increase) -Blood Stalkers decrease to 140, gain 20 discount of 480 (So same price as the Halberds) -Morathi as General unlocks Melusai as battleline (From both a thematic and financial standpoint it is absurd that this isn't already the case...let her lead a snekk army please!) That's the gut changes I would make for points. Would probably increase the aura of Blood Shield by 6" but add Wholly Within clause, move the Hagg Narr trait of 5+ to be a targeted prayer wholly within 12" and move the reroll faith saves to the Hagg Narr passive as all units wholly within 18". With these changes, may also need to make Khailebron be a -1 to hit bubble around the general to match the 18" wholly within; feels like there should be a penalty for warping a unit away. I love my DoK but my opponents undeniably have more fun against my Nighthaunt and even new Slaanesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Mackay Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Morathi unlocking battleline Melusai, my thoughts on this are that it makes sense narratively however I feel that it’s a balance issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thenord Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Make hagg queens cheaper..! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Thenord said: Make hagg queens cheaper..! And instead double the price of witch aelves? edit: in the end we might just wait till ghb 2019 finally comes out. would be interesting to see how the different kind of factions got buffed or well nerved a bit. Edited June 8, 2019 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted June 10, 2019 Share Posted June 10, 2019 For whoever said Slaanesh is not obviously competitive they took 1st and 2nd at the Triumph GT, and I think had 5 placings in the top 10. People just had not had a chance to build the armies and get them painted for events yet, which is one of the main reasons books really need six months to a year of play before adjustments are made. On to daughters, with the new books I don't think they are a massive problem, honestly upping the Hag to 100-120 and either eliminating the horde bonus or increasing the price of witches will bring them down into the sweet spot of 45-55% win rate at events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCovenLord Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) I would prefer buffing the less useful units to be on par with DoK if its going to be the new benchmark which seems to be the case. However, I would like certain mechanics to be nerfed and this applies to DoK and several other factions (I know its off topic). The un-interactive stuff. Double combats (FEC/Slaanesh), excessive mortal wound generation (Plague monks on death are actually ridiculous/ Witch aelves shields/fyreslayers 6's/Prayers/Lightning vortex etc.) rather than straight point/statline nerfs. Those mechanics kill enjoyment. Nothing like watching your mawkrusha explode himself on a plague monk unit thats half is points.... from killing them let alone letting them attack back (it has happened to me more than once). Mitigate non-interactive events and buff units rather than nerf this and that. Edited June 11, 2019 by TheCovenLord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogwai Man Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) Witch Aelves need a price increase. Edited June 12, 2019 by Mogwai Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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