What would it take to balance Daughters of Khaine?

[Lord Veshnakar]

Would have put this up in with the DoK thread in order but figured it needs it's own.

So with the third iteration of the Generals Handbook right around the corner what do you feel like the army would need in order to be brought in line with the more mid-high mid tier armies coming into the new season? 

I am personally expecting the horde discount for witch elves and sisters of slaughter to go away along with the Hags doubling in cost, maybe even use the opportunity to cap the witch elves/sisters at 20 strong.  And maybe a bump up for Morathi, but I don't think she is that insane for her point cost as is. I am not sure though as this is going to be really tricky to get right as they don't really modify the rules and most of the strength of DoK comes from the synergies available in the army.

I would also love to see Lifetakers, Blood Stalkers, and Bloodwrack Medusae on foot to drop in a points a bit so we could start seeing more use out of them.  

Hopefully endless spells and the scenery piece would happen at some point but I am not counting on it.

Thoughts? 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Lord Veshnakar

[Dead Scribe]

Point costs really.  They are very cheap for what they can do which makes them VERY optimal.  

[Skabnoze]

I think all they need is a bit of point cost rebalancing and a rework of the rules for the Temples.

[Lord Veshnakar]

I am assuming they wouldn't be able to modify the rules so I was mostly thinking about points costs. Obviously it would go a long way to have their ranges on prayers and buffs be changed to "wholly within" like a lot of the new books have had so they can't conga to the hag narr/cauldron buff etc. 

[Skabnoze]

5 minutes ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

I am assuming they wouldn't be able to modify the rules so I was mostly thinking about points costs. Obviously it would go a long way to have their ranges on prayers and buffs be changed to "wholly within" like a lot of the new books have had so they can't conga to the hag narr/cauldron buff etc. 

I think they could change that wording in an errata without much issue.  Aside from cleaning up rules to conform to the 2nd ed style (wholly within, natural 6s, etc) the only thing I see as an issue with the book is the Temples. Hagg Nar is simply far too good - to the point where you don't see any of the others except maybe the odd Khailebron force for a Naga themed force.  Rebalancing the temples to make Hagg Nar less of an obvious choice and the rest of them interesting would be useful.

Apart from that the point balancing seems like it would be pretty small.  Maybe adjust the horde discounts a bit.  The only model that stands out to me from a skewed cost perspective is the Hag Queen - who is simply far too cheap for what she does.

[Overread]

Honestly people keep saying points, but in the next breath they say its the 90 witch aelves with support that is the real powerhouse. Thing is you can adjust the points all you like there, because unless you make them exceptionally more expensive it won't actually shut that tactic down. It just shuts down taking support models around it. 

I second the view that the proper way to adjust them is at the source of the problem, the rules themselves and specifcally with the buff abilities that they get. Addressing the buffs that make them "too good" is better than attempting to resolve it by just ranking up the cost and leaving the system "as it" and just forcing DoK players to take less models on the table. Which to me is a bad move for gamers and for GW. Both groups want more models on the table. GW because it generates sales and games because we like to see variety; we like to take our toys to the game and have reason and options to use them in viable lists. 

[Joseph Mackay]

a few things i think
-no horde discount
-Hag Queen points adjusted to be on par with similar heroes
-abilities changed to Wholly Within (although there is president for this to stay as Fyreslayers have a bit of both throughout their book)
-witches should probably go up
-Blood Stalkers battleline if Bloodwrack Medusae general

some changes that i think need to happen across multiple armies
-certain named characters should be keyword locked to a specific Temple/Enclave/Stormhost etc. Morathi, Volturnos are the first 2 that come to mind

[Mark Williams]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

a few things i think
-no horde discount
-Hag Queen points adjusted to be on par with similar heroes
-abilities changed to Wholly Within (although there is president for this to stay as Fyreslayers have a bit of both throughout their book)
-witches should probably go up
-Blood Stalkers battleline if Bloodwrack Medusae general

some changes that i think need to happen across multiple armies
-certain named characters should be keyword locked to a specific Temple/Enclave/Stormhost etc. Morathi, Volturnos are the first 2 that come to mind

I'd like Blood Stalkers to be battle line as well.

Also, I'd like to see Morathi count as a bloodwrack medusa for the purposes of getting snakes battle line.

Also, DoK should go first whenever fighting FEC. Come at me @Joseph Mackay 

[prochuvi]

The discount for wycthes gone 

Hag 120 points,and changed the aura to wholy within as every actual army have

 

Those two changes gonna bring it to balance vs others armys(ignore flesh eater who is the new god tier and need more nerfs than dok)

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

The discount for wycthes gone 

Hag 120 points,and changed the aura to wholy within as every actual army have

120 seems too high.  That said, if you bumped the cost up to 80 (a 33% increase) I think she would still be an instant auto-include.  However, a lot of the reason she is an auto-include is simply because she has a stupidly amazing buff that is unique to the army.  So you could jack the price up pretty high and she would still be quite a good power-piece.  However, I don't think she warrants an absurdly high cost.  I firmly believe her current cost is far too bargain-bin cheap, but there is nothing wrong with having good models that are well priced - or even a bit under priced.  I think 80 is an improvement, and I would probably put the ceiling of a cost increase to 90.

I would be very wary of heavily bumping up the price of the Hag while also jacking up the cost of Witch Aelves.  Be wary of heavily jacking up prices of all parts of a combo since you can end up with a larger overall cost increase than originally planned.

[Joseph Mackay]

on the point of increasing the Hag Queen cost, she should cost less than the Slaughter Queen so i agree with the above that 90pts max, whoever said 120, thats too much

Flesh-Eaters dont need as much nerfing as everyone thinks. Gristlegore with Savage Strike maybe, but dont punish the other courts for Gristlegores sins. maybe change Feeding Frenzy to allow the unit to be picked to fight again rather than immedately but that would hurt the other courts too

[Tropical Ghost General]

Hag Queen does so much to the army that 90pts is still way too cheap. The cheapest ghost hero that does any buffs (and that needs CP) is the KoS on foot and that's 120pts. Most 5 wound support heroes are firmly in the 120pt region. 

Having struggled against DoK alot recently the issues come from them having army wide buffs, that get progressively better as the turns go on, with no way to interact/counter those buffs. Add into the mix, the prayers, the stupidly cheap unit costs, the tankiest hero in the game who can hit like a truck and the ability to string units out for additional buffs and it leads to maximum grossness. 

As my friend who plays them states, if you haven't done the damage to them by end of turn 2, you've lost. Often in combat against DoK I'm hurting myself more due to mortal wounds bouncing back, than I do to the target unit, especially when they have a better death shrug (5+) than DEATH units do. Also when a unit is regularly rolling more dice on wound rolls than it initially rolls for hit rolls, that just adds up to a lot of extra hurt. And what my friend says is true, by turn 3 the games are generally a forgone conclusion, if not by bodies left it's by points scored. But for all it's sins it's suffering most from just having a much better book than nearly every other army, so maybe the rebalance shouldn't be with DoK, instead it should be with all the other books that aren't very good? 

(obviously am fully in support of points increases to bring their units in line with other choices, how everything they can bring to the table is cheaper than my spooks, 30 witch elfs cost less and have better survivability and damage output than 20 grims.) 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Tropical Ghost General

[Mutton]

Been playing DoK for a year, here are my suggestions for bringing down some things that are overperforming and lifting up things that are underperforming (or not being played at all).

Hag Queen goes up to 100 points.

Witch Elves go up to 120 OR take away the horde discount.

Blood Stalkers go down to 100 OR revamp their warscroll to make them decent (they're one of the worst units in the game cost/damage output) At least at 100 they wouldn't feel like as much of a tax for the Temple Nest battalion. But hell, I would still regret taking them at 100. Please fix these lasses.

Cauldron with Hag and Slaughter Queen go up to 320/360 respectively.

Make it so Slaughter Queens don't have to be the general to use their command abilities (right now SQ's on foot are useless).

Bloodwrack Shrine could come down to 200 to be slightly more appealing.

Avatar on foot goes down to 160 to be slightly more appealing (it's a 180 point beat stick that has to be activated each turn just to do anything).

Completely redo the Temple abilities, traits, and artifacts (maybe even give us some command abilities to use, because damn we've got none that are reasonable, plus this fixes the biggest problem of Hagg Narr being the flat best). Otherwise, just make the Hagg Narr ability wholly within (this doesn't really fix the issue, but is at least a sloppy band-aid until a new battletome).

Melusai should be battleline if Morathi is general

Morathi comes down to 440 (probably controversial, but I think she's a tad overcosted for what her role ends up being). The least important change in the list.

I unfortunately don't see GW changing many warscrolls or battletome rules outside of a new tome itself. Which is a shame, because the BIGGEST problem with DoK is Hagg Narr. So much could be resolved if they just fiddle around with those temples a bit.

 

 

[Joseph Mackay]

4 hours ago, Mutton said:

Blood Stalkers go down to 100 OR revamp their warscroll to make them decent (they're one of the worst units in the game cost/damage output) At least at 100 they wouldn't feel like as much of a tax for the Temple Nest battalion. But hell, I would still regret taking them at 100. Please fix these lasses.

Melusai should be battleline if Morathi is general

 

 

i dont think Blood Stalkers are bad, i think the problem is everyone compares them to similiar units (Kurnoth Hunters, Tzaangor Skyfires) which makes them look bad. if they get a points decrease they should match Blood Sisters, not end up cheaper.

the Morathi situation with making Melusai battleline, its a balance thing. i know from a background perspective it makes no sense currently, but i think its to balance Morathi a bit as unlike other named characters she doesnt have the same restrictions (having her Temple keyword locked for example). i love the Melusae units and id hate to see them nerfed in any way, but if you let Morathi unlock battleline status i bet you theyll be considered op

Edited May 1, 2019 by Joseph Mackay

[ledha]

6 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

120 seems too high.  That said, if you bumped the cost up to 80 (a 33% increase) I think she would still be an instant auto-include.  However, a lot of the reason she is an auto-include is simply because she has a stupidly amazing buff that is unique to the army.  So you could jack the price up pretty high and she would still be quite a good power-piece.  However, I don't think she warrants an absurdly high cost.  I firmly believe her current cost is far too bargain-bin cheap, but there is nothing wrong with having good models that are well priced - or even a bit under priced.  I think 80 is an improvement, and I would probably put the ceiling of a cost increase to 90.

I would be very wary of heavily bumping up the price of the Hag while also jacking up the cost of Witch Aelves.  Be wary of heavily jacking up prices of all parts of a combo since you can end up with a larger overall cost increase than originally planned.

too high ? For a priest with 2 personnal prayer + book prayer + an automatic reroll wounds AND a immun battleshock ?

It's the same point cost of the runesmitter, who have a very good deepstrike ability (not like the DOK are craving for it to be honest) , but who also have only one personnal prayer, which is... a prayer giving reroll wound, but without giving battleshock immunity, and working on a 3+

120 is perfectly fine for her.

[JackStreicher]

1. remove the „general“ restrictions on slaughter queens 

2. remove the horde discount

3. Make Warlocks and bow snakes cheaper

[Overread]

Thing is hag queens are cheap, but they are also a pure support model. I can see them being cheap because you might use them to activate avatars or to support witches. So whilst the model on its own is expensive its price is basically part of a couple of  established combos - so if you feel that avatars should come down, but you raise the price of a hag you've actually not changed anything in that balance structure. Whilst if you raise the price of witches and the hag you're raising the price of that combo twice over; which combined might well take it outside of its bracket. 

Same is true when you've got armies of snakes, again the hag queens are sort of expected to be there supporting them. 

I think the hag is decently priced for what she is when taken within context of the army as a whole. Perhaps going to 80 or 90 but I think once you get into the 100s and beyond you're taking a model that's supposed to be taken in numbers to support the rest of the army into the region where its too expensive to take more than one (esp alongside things like cauldrons).

 

 

Personally I'm still in favour of adjusting some of the buff properties rather than the points. I think sometimes its better to leave the points alone and instead focus on the other elements that are open to us to change. In addition lets not forget that several recent armies like Flesh Eaters and Skaven are proving to be very powerful. It might be that DoK don't need that much of an adjustment and that instead of bringing them down it might be better to instead bring a couple of other armies up more in line with the current 2.0 battletomes. 

 

 

 

[Galdenistal]

In general, I feel that the points values that are assigned to units, don't add enough weighting to the base size they are on, most of the problem armies in AOS right now (and other armies that I struggle to beat as Khorne) all have 25mm base size battleline.

It offers so much board control for a quite small footprint and it makes using the max size unit points reduction so easy. Whereas my battleline is also offered a max size unit point bonus that seems totally arbitrary as 30 or 40 models on 32mm bases are completely unwieldy.

So while not exclusively a DoK issue, I think its still relevant.

[Joseph Mackay]

let me ask a very important question. aside from goblins, what other army has a 60pts hero?

as far as im aware, the answer is none, and that i feel proves the Hag Queen is too cheap

i also just want to say that i dont think DOK are actually op, i think its actually one of the best books theyve ever written, as to me everything is good, nothing really stands out as being bad (there are a few points costs that could go up/down however). i think DOK is the best internally balanced battletome at the moment, the problem is you cant say the same about most of the other books which gives the impression of DOK being op

[Nacnudllah]

Having just looked at the Hag Queen's warscroll, I don't see how she deserves to be any cheaper than a squishy wizard.  A Chaos Sorcerer Lord has 5 Wounds and a 5+ save (just like the Hag Queen), and comparable melee weapons.  His spell might be better than her prayer, and he has Oracular Visions (a free bonus Mystic Shield), but once you factor in that it can be unbound, I'm not so sure.  Anyhow, the Chaos Sorcerer Lord costs 160.  What makes him over twice the price of a 60 pt Hag Queen?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Nacnudllah

[Kramer]

I'm going to say new models... just in case GW reads along  

[whispersofblood]

If you compare the best stuff in a faction to some of the worst stuff available then of course it will look op.

Compare a Hag to a Grey Seer and we can have an honest conversation.

The question is how do Hags affect the game, and it is almost exclusively by the virtue of witchbrew, and their faction prayer. 

DoK's power is mostly distilled down to a few key abilities, that always work and are outside the normal structure of the game, the fact that people continually point at points cost, show they don't really know how the army functions, they just think its too strong. 

DoK results still aren't indicative of pure faction ability, because you cannot equalise for the people aspect of wargames. I would argue that DoK operate mostly in an AoS1 rule space which IS bad for the game, but not the affect of their overall power. I would argue you want at least one very good representation of each playstyle. The game is seriously lacking a good, approachable shooting based army to keep some factions honest. I would say Skaven but playing Skaven has always been a pretty niche position.

The fixes are simple, but changing the cost won't change the pressures to include the things you that build the list. 

My fixes would be:

Witches:

Frenzied Fervour removed, if not removed make it apply to models within 1/2" of enemy models.

Hag:

 up 20 pts,

Prayers:

make the roll of '1' suffers 1 dmg as opposed to 1 MW, want it to bypass saves, and shrug saves

Cauldron:

Blood Shield changed to wholly within, range stays the same

Cauldron loses orgy of slaughter, gets a new cmd ability, not requiring general status, and possibly extends the range on the use of core cmd abilities when it is the General

Mv doesn't degrade

Gaines Monster Keyword

Temples:

Hagg Narr changed to wholly withing 14", but possible 12"

All the temples drop their artefacts, creates a needless secondary tier of competition between drastically noncompetitive options. So even if you wanted to play a non-Hagg Narr list, the locked ins are so crippling it makes it hard to even give it a real go.

Or a complete re-work, since some are basically just not even worth mentioning

Bloodstalkers:

Down to 150

3 shots

16" range

Gain run and shoot, and Lifetaker's fight and flight

Warlocks:

Increase the number of spells they can cast as they go up by 5

Units I would add:

A Khinerai Hero, that makes lifetakers battleline, has an Aura that is useful on both Khinerai types, and a generally useful CMD ability

 

 

 

 

[SaberArtoria22]

I don’t think the hag queen should be punished too harshly just because most people don’t take range weapons, 80 points seems fair. I play Khailebron Snakes and my opponents are usually able to get my hags turn 2 or 3 if they bring shooting.

definitely think the witches at least should lose horde bonus or match the Sisters of Slaughters point cost.

Main fix I feel would be to swap Hagg nar and Blessing of Khaine, so general gives re-rolls and only 1 unit can have a 5++.

Also maybe no -1 to shooting to big non-monsters like cauldrons and screaming bells.

Cauldrons up like 30points each if they don’t lose shooting protection 

sone drops would be great too

Morathi 440 - 450, she only feels worth her points when your opponent tries to fight her, or let her make Melusai Battleline and give her that keyword and she could be 500 at that point.

Blood Stalkers 120pts or + 1 shot, Battleline for Medusa would be great too but 1 of those would be nice adjustment.

Warlocks either more casts for bigger unit or down slightly maybe 120 - 130, don’t have as much experience with those but would never take over Medusa for same cost.

Bloodwrack Shrine to 200 

Khinerai seem fine as is 

[sal4m4nd3r]

People who are suggesting a 20 or 40 point increase to hag queens clearly havent been playing a GW game for very long. The pendulum will swing the other way with nearly equal and opposite ferocity when the nerfs come. It happens all the time. Most recent example is Tzeetch. Hope the DoK players enjoyed thier moment in the sun.

Hagg queen needs to double in cost

Witch elves price needs to go up to 120.

Slaughter Queen needs to not have the general requirement to use command.

Both Melusai should be battleline if medusa OR morathi are general.

hagg narr is the issue, and short of re-working the temple completely I'm not sure how to address it.  A glass cannon army should not be able to deflect 33% of all damage. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

what other army has a 60pts hero?

Ghosts have the cairn wraith. which has no command ability, 4 wounds, 4+ethereal, 3 attacks (4+/3+/-1/2). 6's to hit do 2 mortals instead of rolling to wound. And can re-roll hits against units with 5 or more models. All of this excellence for 60pts. Definitely up there with had queen in terms of 'like for like' 😂