Reproduction (aka Where Does The Pollen Go?)

[Myrdin]

5 hours ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Part of an “alternate” beastman warband I’m working on

Thisssss isssss Ssssssuper cute :3

It warms my furry Beastmen Heart to see people making their own Beastmen variants. The army has so much more potential for alternative looks, thematic kitbash and custom models than any other out there. Simply by how Beastmen work in essence in the established lore.

I remember back in the "Herdstone" forum days, there was a player who made a Kingdom of Ind Beastmen army. Tigers, elephants and such. And another one who created his own hand crafted Gnolls.

Very cool. Keep up the good work and keep us posted for more updates in the Beast of Chaos forum thread

Edited September 19, 2019 by Myrdin

[Myrdin]

10 hours ago, Overread said:

I've wondered this too. Especially considering how the souls are a finite resource and there is every chance that Slaanesh could escape or Nagash could jump in and try and intercept the souls etc... Ergo that the could be a point where the souls, in the story ,get shut off as a supply source. 

Now we know that Idoneth can reproduce and reproduce true to their species. The question would remain if the Khinerai and Melusai can reproduce with pure aelves (since far as we know Morathi makes all Khinerai and Melusai female). Another aspect might be that Morathi could keep a supply of souls stored in waiting; if the supply were interrupted would she fashion a few males to help keep her population going  and what might happen if they did breed within tehir own and establish themselves as a species. When offspring were born NOT from Morathi's creating hand

 

DoK are honestly a bit of a ticking time bomb because of how insanely controlling Morathi is over them (at least at the upper ranks and organisation of the faction). I could foresee a time where she could fall from grace or get challenged. Heck if Khaine ever manages to escape her hold over his heart and his supply of belief then that would be super interesting.

Well I sure love me some Harpies and Lamias :3

Heck its those two miniatures + Big snake Morathi that got me into AoS 2.0

I do like your train of though. Personally I believe its reasonable to think that Morathi, as wicked as she is, is also pretty darn smart all things considered and would plan ahead of this, thus making the female reproductory organs of Melusai and Khinerai work similar to her more normal servants (meaning: regular witch elves). 

Now I know this is a different universe and setting, etc etc etc, but I like how Harpies and Lahmias are done in the Monster Musume universe. Where they can procreate, but only give birth to female "monster girls" of their own species. Similar to the blue heads from Mass Effect universe, the child takes a lot of personality and character traits from their father, but as far as its species, it always is of the same as the mother = a monster girl. Though occasionally there are exception and a male is born, in that case the male is regular human in terms of physiology who exhibits some traits of his mother (ie: occasional scales or feathers here and there, more snake like eyes, etc etc).

I`d like to imagine that Morathi did think about these things, and her demi human (demi elf ?) servants are still able to do the snu snu and give birth to children. Though how crippled the male aelf souls of hers are due to her own doing, I would presume all the children born would be of the same species and gender as the mother.

NOW if one of these girls should fancy a particular human man.... thats where it would get interesting. Unlike Humans x Aeldar who are far more different as species, but still can interbreed, though its very rare and even rare a child is born this way. In AoS the Humans and Aelfs are more similar to each other, as per the typical fantasy setting. Going by what I already wrote > IF Melusai and Khinerai can procreate with male aelfs, it would be more than probable they could do so with Humans as well. 

.... And now I really wanna read an epic story of a human Witch Hunter and a Melusai of fighting chaos together, on some heart wrenching adventure, and eventually getting more "comfortable" with each other doing the bogie bogie dance.... yesss, this warms my Beastmen and demi-humans loving heart very much so haha^^

 

*I really like your take on the "What if Khaine comes back". I have been thinking about this a lot as well when drafting background story, characters and theme for my own Dok. The temple my girls come from has distanced itself a bit from Morathi, even the Melusai and Khinerai act more independently, and treat her less than a Goddes and more like the Priestess/Oracle she is pretending to be. Still loyal, but not in a forced way. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Myrdin

[Overread]

I think for DoK something has to happen to Morathi at some stage and to the faction. She's a few shades nuts and also got a huge hate on for males to the point where she's corrupted her own people so that hte males are born weaker and those who are born with mage talent are marked with kill switches. Now I'd wager that this influence is likely heavier on Temples closer to her influence and less on those further away, however the impact on the gene pool would be interesting since in theory DoK practice survival of the fittest in the extreme martial sense for the females, whilst having comparatively weak males. Males are also shown to be a lower social class than women, however the Witch Aelves we've generally seen in the lore haven't been male hating fanatics, if anything chances are the DoK might undergo some major social changes eventually; especailly if Morathi started to lose a bit of her all controlling power over them (which in theory should happen as the faction has grown and grown into the Age of Sigmar). 

 

Heck what DoK might just need to tip the balance is Morathi to get an equal with opposing views to push through change. Perhaps she takes a lover and a part of her mellows a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit; perhaps Khaine finds a way to influence her through his heart - siphoning off a small portion of the energies she is stealing off him so that he can twist her mind to his will just a bit here and there. There's also the huge issue with the souls being stolen from Slaanesh - Malarion already knows that Morathi is doing it (one of the Malign Portents stories showed us that); whilst the others Gods do not so there's that drama to likely unfold. Heck perhaps a powerful Slaughter Queen manages to rise up enough to take a far more dominant position and manages to avoid Morathi's "gift" of a serpents bite from her head and also her "Inquisition" like melusai.

[JPjr]

really not sure that taking one of the only ranges that puts female (if a tad tiresomely tropey) models front & centre and giving their leader a male counterpart to put her in her place and 'fix' them is the best way to go here...

[Overread]

24 minutes ago, JPjr said:

really not sure that taking one of the only ranges that puts female (if a tad tiresomely tropey) models front & centre and giving their leader a male counterpart to put her in her place and 'fix' them is the best way to go here...

I never said her partner had to be male! (esp considering her near insane level of male hatred)

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

really not sure that taking one of the only ranges that puts female (if a tad tiresomely tropey) models front & centre and giving their leader a male counterpart to put her in her place and 'fix' them is the best way to go here...

Now now. Personally I didnt see him eluding to something like this. This way of looking at it is rather extreme and has the stank of SJW interpretation there friend.... not accusing you of anything, but maybe lets not go that rabbit hole please  ?  

 

@Overread Morathi doesn't really have a hate on for males in general, actually in the DoK books its pretty nicely explained why she does things the way she does. Its about power and control, which for her is easier to excercise over other women, especially since her own son told her to shove off after what she did.... never mention Nagash literally pimp slapping her, when she tried to honey up to him and give him a bone err..... get it ? Nagash....a bone err (believe it or not, this word is censored here)...... riiiiiiiiight, please dont release those man eating ferrets, I`ll be good now >__< 

Anyway, she pretty much decided to not rely on anyone else but her own, and instead of going for the seducer type she used to be back in the old world chose to go the angry snake vixen route. Her crippling the male souls is mostly out of fear of rebellion, and then turning on/away from her, just like Malekith (Malarion ?) did after all that fun Slaaneshi stuff happened.... and lets be honest here, Morathi aint no saint. She is as far from one as a Greater Unclean one is to use cleanex to wipe his hand after a days work of washing the floor with Mr. Clean.  

Her being overly paranoid and unstable is also a thing thats written. When she gets irritated she looses control and turns into her giant snake demon form, and cant turn back on will, only after calming down. Plus she is batsh*t insane from all the things Slaanesh did to her. Add to that her former nature and a millennia or two of spite and you got one psycho of faction leader right there. And thats kinda her current charm, and a source for great possible venues to take both her and her Factions story. 

 Now does it make sense to weaken part of your population, in a society based on Darwinism and survival of the fittest like that of DoK? Absolutely not, and shows how the author didnt think things through. Strong male + strong female = strong child with good genes, and possibility to transcend both its parents. For a faction based on warfare and nonstop combat > kinda like Spartans of our own world, it makes very little sense to use individuals you would normally see at the bottom of the genepool (lets extrapolate that > Weaker souls in this fantasy setting would have negative effect on ones physical body as well, which is directly tied to genetics) to be the fathers of such a society.

Honestly I would not be surprised at all for the more doubtful and more free willed DoK to seek mates from the other Aelf races, rather than copulate with their own men.

I do like to comparison to a ticking time bomb society, where eventually someone somewhere will start asking questions, and if enough people do so you cant silence all of them secretly anymore.

Again though - it all depends on the writers ability to work the story around. Personally I dont need for Morathi to "be put into her place" by Khain or anyone, but I would like to see some internal divide and her own subjects starting to doubt her teachings. She is a demigod trying to siphon Khains power to fully ascend and join the Pantheon, but still 

I hope things get bit more fleshed out and shaken up a bit. It would be interesting to see some alternative units spring out of it, embracing a different mentality and combat doctrines stemming from it. Its possible Doomfire Warlocks which is a dual kit, will be gone in the next battle-tome update. In such a case some new cool miniatures with a bit more unique identity and theme can be introduced. I would love a bigger emphasis on the whole Serpent thing. Hmmm serpent riders could be very cool (this being DoK think TK serpent riders but more dynamic and sleek).

Edited September 19, 2019 by Myrdin

[JPjr]

5 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Now now. Personally I didnt see him eluding to something like this. This way of looking at it is rather extreme and has the stank of SJW interpretation there friend.... not accusing you of anything, but maybe lets not go that rabbit hole please  ? 

hey feel free to accuse me of that all you like, having been involved in this hobby for well over 3 decades I see absolutely no shame in wanting to occasionally nudge it in a smarter, more inclusive direction or, as I prefer to think of it, maintain the progressive values that have been an important part of its DNA since its inception.

Ridiculous as I'm well aware that sounds when we're discussing the reproductive habits of magical snake women and trees.

anyway I'm sure @Overread will have taken it for the mild (I mean hardly extreme?!) and very mildly tongue in cheek note of caution that should be kept in mind when dealing with such an outlier faction as DoK... Anyway I know that any discussion of political or social issues is like kryptonite here so I shall bow out and leave it at that.

[Whitefang]

Brianstorm 

Do ppl think ghouls are still capable of reproduction?

In ghoulslayer there is a couple of ghoul kings but the wife is sad about she can not give the king a son

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Brianstorm 

Do ppl think ghouls are still capable of reproduction?

In ghoulslayer there is a couple of ghoul kings but the wife is sad about she can not give the king a son

Where‘s that image from?

[JPjr]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Where‘s that image from?

would appear to be from here. looks like the box art for the FEC war band.

[Myrdin]

@JPjr I have no such intentions. I like things be friendly and fun for all if possible.  I will wholeheartedly agree with the open mindset of the setting for this universe,  There arent that many fictions with a degree of inclusivity as high as Warhammer (Fantasy or 40K) has. It is a universe with many different religions, races, types of creatures and subtypes of said races, philosophical streams of though, and much more. I merely wish to steer away from some more fringe elements this train of though brings (just like any other train of thoughts when taken to the extreme) and keep the fun discussion going. 

I also wish not to bring up politics of real life into this. Taking your lead I shall speak on this no more, rather I`d love to continue talking about  reproductive habits of magical snake wome and walking trees  

***

In regards to Morathi... we KNOW for a fact that she goes for anything if she fancies them enough or sees them usefull in one way or another. Men, women, mutants, and demons alike. Heck there is a reason Slaanesh he/she/itself hand picked and chased her soul down after the big bang happened. She has a reputation for a reason. If someone likes Morathi (and I do consider myself a fan), they like her for who she is as a character, with all aspects of her personality being part of that character.  She is fairly egoistical and power hungry, and has ever "loved" only two people in her entire life. At least from what I`ve read about her. One of them being the first dragonlord or something... sorry my memory on this is not the best, and the second being her son Malekith. With her mind, body and soul being one big clusterf* I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone (man, woman, tzeentchian tentacle monstrosity) able to get a little spot in her heart. I think warm emotions like love is not something the current Morathi is truly capable of (going by what we can read on her). Squeezing a little bit of compassion might be about the maximum you could get. 

***

As for the Ghouls thing.... I didnt read the FEC book, but unless they changed how Ghouls came to be, they should be able to reproduce just like humans. Though them being twisted mutants in their own right, might lead to some members of the species becoming sterile. Its not uncommon for a unexpected strain of life, that came via breeding to be sterile. Example I can think of are Ligers > Lion+Tiger offsprings. Most of them if not all of those few that exist are unable to further procreate as far as I know. I might be wrong on this though so dont quote me on it.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Myrdin

[Overread]

37 minutes ago, JPjr said:

anyway I'm sure @Overread will have taken it for the mild (I mean hardly extreme?!) and very mildly tongue in cheek note of caution that should be kept in mind when dealing with such an outlier faction as DoK... Anyway I know that any discussion of political or social issues is like kryptonite here so I shall bow out and leave it at that.

Thus far GW hasn't put Magma dragons into Fyreslayers nor have they added duel winged dragon/flying models (as seen in some art) nor fleshed the range out with some undergarments and a few more unit types. Otherwise I'd be stroking my beard and putting your name in a Book of Grudges!!

 

 

Flesheaters are a curious one because they've got two tiers of society; vampires and ghouls. The former are more physically developed and stable in body, even if their minds are totally insane. The Ghouls are a bit less physically stable (heck many of them have bits of other thigns poking through them in various places). Traditionally many ghoul creatures never made children, they were mostly thralls or monsters that worked by corrupting others to join their ranks; or had a master (mage/vampire) who would corrupt others to swell their ranks. I'm not actually sure how FEC increase their numbers save through infection of a population. 

Considering their madness its likely that they do attempt to reproduce (likely seeing it as a wonderful culmination of midnight songs played under moonlight to maidens on balconies and such - when in reality its screaming torment of a captured living human being torn apart by a male whilst the female stands atop a rotting ruin). Another aspect is that the older and more twisted (esp the ghouls) get the more they might even lose a sense of their gender identity. Its' clear that there are big gaps in their memories and the older ones likely have almost reborn or gone into repetitive ruts many times over. 

That said I get the feeling that they don't reproduce, but they do infect an entire population which gives them insane numbers (remember most armies are only a small portion of the total population of any settlement - wives, workers, farmers, builders etc.... all remain behind to keep society going). Though interestingl they appear to care for each other quite a lot even within their madness, so they could surely raise young - just on bonemeal, blood and guts.

 

Heck perhaps if they ever did reproduce a second, third or even fourth generation might start to, if not cure the madness, at least twist it and gain a bit more sense. They could start to formulate actual long term strategies and plans of expansion not just feasting. 

[XReN]

46 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Brianstorm 

Do ppl think ghouls are still capable of reproduction?

In ghoulslayer there is a couple of ghoul kings but the wife is sad about she can not give the king a son

It can be about their diet if anything, can't imagine munching raw flesh, bone and marrow being good for developing child or reproducting function.

[Myrdin]

45 minutes ago, Overread said:

Heck perhaps if they ever did reproduce a second, third or even fourth generation might start to, if not cure the madness, at least twist it and gain a bit more sense. They could start to formulate actual long term strategies and plans of expansion not just feasting. 

Now thats a scary thought. 

Hmm... although I dont see it being an impossibility. Should GW ever want to expand the FEC faction, they could go the Genestealer Cults route, where each subsequent generation while retaining the monstrous strength draws ever so slightly closer to more human appearance as well as their minds gaining a bit more twisted clarity rather then just chaotical madness. The Strigoi Vampires strain comes to mind from the old Vampire Counts.

The ghouls and Genestealers share similar postures and the sculpts for the miniatures is also quite close to each other for people even use them for conversions of the other. I wouldn't deem it impossible them (GW) going down this route. Though it wouldn't be exactly original since it would be a fantasy version copy paste of GSC, it would be a possible angle of expansion for a faction that has....what... 5 units ? (Ghouls, big Ghouls, Big Bat Ghouls, Big screaching bat dragon, and one or two characters)

[Whitefang]

44 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Now thats a scary thought. 

Hmm... although I dont see it being an impossibility. Should GW ever want to expand the FEC faction, they could go the Genestealer Cults route, where each subsequent generation while retaining the monstrous strength draws ever so slightly closer to more human appearance as well as their minds gaining a bit more twisted clarity rather then just chaotical madness. The Strigoi Vampires strain comes to mind from the old Vampire Counts.

The ghouls and Genestealers share similar postures and the sculpts for the miniatures is also quite close to each other for people even use them for conversions of the other. I wouldn't deem it impossible them (GW) going down this route. Though it wouldn't be exactly original since it would be a fantasy version copy paste of GSC, it would be a possible angle of expansion for a faction that has....what... 5 units ? (Ghouls, big Ghouls, Big Bat Ghouls, Big screaching bat dragon, and one or two characters)

Isn’t vampire already genestealer in fantasy?

I mean, their society infiltration method and infection method(blood thrall etc.)

Edited September 19, 2019 by Whitefang

[amysrevenge]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

I'm not actually sure how FEC increase their numbers save through infection of a population. 

In the battletome, it reads almost the same as the way old world Empire villages were corrupted and turned into Beastmen.  You get a famine, the community gets desperate, they start eating each other, maybe some intervention from an abhorrent, and now they are ghouls.

[XReN]

On the note of Flesh-Eaters I wonder what a Varghulf is in AoS setting, are they devolved vampires like in Fantasy? Or will they be explained as something different? Yet there is no clue in battletomes.

[MitGas]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:06 AM, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Part of an “alternate” beastman warband I’m working on

Lovely idea and very promising start - kinda makes me think of He-Man's Kobra Khan.

[Yoshiya]

I don’t think slyvaneth reproduce in the same way that real plants do. They mostly come from soul pods, a loose term that denotes something different depending on the grove (the most typical seemingly being a golden bulb full of a glowing liquid that seems to grow similarly to a fruit). However, they can also grow from the soul amphorae, with the ones on Alarielle allowing her to immediate grow new mature slyvaneth.

It seems like they are actually more akin to living life magic that grows a shell of plant matter around it. All the soul pod groves are based in locations where life magic is at its strongest and naturally coalesces, which is why the slyvaneth often don’t get involved if it risks giving up the groves location, preferring to hide.

The question that interests me is where their souls come from though. Other beings made of magic don’t have souls even if they are sentient, and even if the same soul pod is grown twice, the lore for the tree revenants implies that what grows isn’t exactly the same as before (even if the have the memories of the previous lives). Though Drycha is the same soul just made more bitter by her surroundings so maybe the strongest souls come back the same? 

Also, Slyvaneth are the only race that one of the non-chaos gods have created from nothing (an overlooked fact). Every other race requires taking a soul from elsewhere and modifying it, yet the Slyvaneth are always described as being creations of Alarielle with no mention of a prior form.

 

 

On a separate note, has anyone else noticed the new kurnothi have the same soul pod things on their stomachs as the tree revenants? I wonder if that implies they are a hybrid species rather than mutated aelves.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Yoshiya