Seraphon guard and chameleons viability

[kaintxu]

Hi guys,

I just got into the game after being off since AoS launched. My main armies being daemons, wood elves and lizards, I have decided to sell the wood elves as I don't play much, so I want to focus on Seraphon for order.

i have been looking into scrolls for a while, even before GH came out, and on paper and stat wise, both guard and chameleon seem great. My issue comes now with the GH. Are 100 point for 5 guard and 120 for 5 chameleons not too many points taking into account 1 would?

khorne blood reapers have 3 wounds more than guard, same save, and more attacks, and while they don't have shield or the rule based on having a hero nearby the have other rules, so even if 40 more points, they have 3 times the wounds, which is good to soak mortals. This also happen with stormcasts and other.

Then chameleons at 120, 240 for 10 which u need, even if they pop up anywhere and get to a 3+, it's still only 10 wounds and 20 shots which on average do 6'6 wounds before saves. Are they really that well costed for the damage they do?

the rules of one also screwed ryperdactils...

Not here to whine, I just want to get some help into building an army, and while I wanted it to be Seraphon, with the new generals handbook, I don't know if they are up to level and should maybe hit and build sylvaneth which I have some already from my old woodelves

 

cheers,

[daedalus81]

I'm not sure what khorne unit you're trying to reference, but you may need to take a longer look at the rules.

[Nico]

Cannot help laughing at the sight of Seraphon complaining about balance when they still have the worst filth in the game.

Chameleon Skinks are widely hated and can mess with charges and other trolling.

Saurus Guards are absurdly good.

Also the price discrepancy to Wrathbros is 40% not just 40 points as if it's a minor amount.

[Nico]

Cannot help laughing at the sight of Seraphon complaining about balance when they still have the worst filth in the game.

Chameleon Skinks are widely hated and can mess with charges and other trolling.

Saurus Guards are absurdly good.

Also the price discrepancy to Wrathbros is 40% not just 40 points as if it's a minor amount.

[kaintxu]

First of all guys, I don't want to complain. As I'm saying I'm brand new at the game and don't know how things really work so I might be looking badly at things, so I'm just asking for your feedback.

the Khorne unit I'm talking about are the skullreapers. The Khorne guys with 3 wounds each and 3 attacks.

i know the rules for our units are great, what I'm talking about are points balance. I also compare them to some stormcasts, and while guard is great, for the same points you get guys with twice as many wounds, same armour and different rules.

 

[Andreas]

Glad to have you onboard. ?

It was just that you accidentally manage to pick Seraphons two strongest units and asked if they where worth their points. And most think they are.

But it is up to you to decide.

I think to make it easier compare them to something more similar that tries to do the same thing. Saurus guard and Hearthguard berserkers cost the same and both have one wound and are used to defend heros (at least fluff wise). Then there are of course the problem with including all possible synergies in the price. 

Chameloen skinks are soo unique so they are harder to find something to compare to but you get 10 gutter runners for the same price

[daedalus81]

4 hours ago, kaintxu said:

First of all guys, I don't want to complain. As I'm saying I'm brand new at the game and don't know how things really work so I might be looking badly at things, so I'm just asking for your feedback.

the Khorne unit I'm talking about are the skullreapers. The Khorne guys with 3 wounds each and 3 attacks.

i know the rules for our units are great, what I'm talking about are points balance. I also compare them to some stormcasts, and while guard is great, for the same points you get guys with twice as many wounds, same armour and different rules.

 

Alright so as you know skullreapers are 140.  Saurus guard are 100 points, which means we're talking about a unit that is 40% more points.  These units also serve different functions.

Let's say skullreapers are being attacked by 5 chosen.  The skullreapers would suffer 5 wounds.  The saurus under the same conditions would lose 2.2 wounds.

Skull reapers will do an average of 4.7 wounds to 4+ armor (3.3 to saurus).  Saurus do 3.7 wounds to 4+ armor.  

So, saurus are more than twice as durable and they do only 20% less damage than skullreapers without the death ability considered or the chance to reroll hits and wounds if they've killed a lot.

I'm going to say that is pretty fair.

Shooting units are going to cost higher, because they can shoot into combat.  Chameleons are also ridiculously mobile and not easy to kill with ranged since many ranged weapons come with -1 or no rend and chameleons should easily have their 3+ save.

[Nico]

Saurus plus Skink Priest plus Slaan - 2+ saves rerollable, ignoring -1 rend....

[daedalus81]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

Saurus plus Skink Priest plus Slaan - 2+ saves rerollable, ignoring -1 rend....

Well, yea, but on 4+ for the re-rolls and well over 500 points invested. 

[kaintxu]

On 6 August 2016 at 3:44 PM, daedalus81 said:

Alright so as you know skullreapers are 140.  Saurus guard are 100 points, which means we're talking about a unit that is 40% more points.  These units also serve different functions.

Let's say skullreapers are being attacked by 5 chosen.  The skullreapers would suffer 5 wounds.  The saurus under the same conditions would lose 2.2 wounds.

Skull reapers will do an average of 4.7 wounds to 4+ armor (3.3 to saurus).  Saurus do 3.7 wounds to 4+ armor.  

So, saurus are more than twice as durable and they do only 20% less damage than skullreapers without the death ability considered or the chance to reroll hits and wounds if they've killed a lot.

I'm going to say that is pretty fair.

Shooting units are going to cost higher, because they can shoot into combat.  Chameleons are also ridiculously mobile and not easy to kill with ranged since many ranged weapons come with -1 or no rend and chameleons should easily have their 3+ save.

I fully understand this, and while I have not ch caked your math, your assumption is bad. While the guards take 2.2 wounds which means that 2 die and 3 wounds and 9 attacks are left in the unit, only one skullreaper dies leaving 10 wounds and 12 attacks.

the saurus have lost 40%of their unit both attack wise and resilient wise while the skull reapers have lost 33% of the unit's wound and only 20% of the attacks

its true that you can get 15 guards for 10 skullreapers, but that's still 15 vs 30 wounds which closes the gap a bit, but both u its get excellent buffs

[daedalus81]

Put it this way.  Give the saurus the 2+ rerollables (very easy).  It will take 200 3+/3+ rend 1 (rend doesnt matter) attacks to kill five models.  That same number of attacks would cause 59 wounds to the skull reapers.

There is nothing wrong with saurus guard.  Different units have different purposes and methods of being supported.

[kaintxu]

8 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Put it this way.  Give the saurus the 2+ rerollables (very easy).  It will take 200 3+/3+ rend 1 (rend doesnt matter) attacks to kill five models.  That same number of attacks would cause 59 wounds to the skull reapers.

There is nothing wrong with saurus guard.  Different units have different purposes and methods of being supported.

Don't get me wrong, I totally get it and I think they are great. I just think they are maybe too weak vs mortal wounds for their cost?

 

i played 15 the other day and they held the charge of the new dwarves general on huge salamander great, but then 10 died to mortal wounds super easy. 

[Nico]

They lost to their hard counter.

[kaintxu]

Totally agree, but from I experience, are there not many mortal wounds around that makes that counter quite an easy one to pull out?

also units with the same cost don't really have that same counter. The skullreapers with 5 mortal wounds lose 1 guys, we lose a full unit and from what ninja e seen is not that hard

[daedalus81]

That's the whole Seraphon ticket.  Armor and rend defense, but weak to mortal wounds.  Magmadroths are also made to fight larger units.  A Bastiladon would be a better choice to confront it.

[Sadysaneto]

Its not about the wounds, its about what a unity can do for those points