Reikenor's Corpse Candles and Deathless Spirits

[relic456]

Hey guys,

I saw a comment in a different thread that alluded to the fact that if Deathless Spirits negates the mortal wound from Reikenor's Corpse Candles, he doesn't get the casting bonus.  Is this true? My google-fu failed me and couldn't find a response.

My gut feeling is that it doesn't matter whether the mortal wound actually goes through, since Corpse Candles just says: "Pick either this model or an enemy  model...That model suffers 1 mortal wound...If the mortal would was suffered by this model, add 3 to the casting roll".  My thoughts are that 'suffer' just means when the damage is 'given' to the model, before the wounds are allocated.  The FAQ has a section that is similar, but only talks about wounds allocated to the model, not suffered.  Without an FAQ about 'Suffer', it sounds like a negated mortal wound doesn't count as being allocated, but still counts as being suffered.

So at a higher level, are 'suffer' and 'allocate' the same?  My feeling is no, since the Core Rules (p. 7, Mortal Wounds) state "..the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered...Mortal wounds caused at other times are allocated to the models in the target unit as soon as they occur..."  So the sequence for MW from spells or abilities sounds like Suffer/Inflict --> Allocate.

Thanks!

[Fluttershy]

perhaps this might be helpful..

Warhammer Age of Sigmar – Core Rules, Designers’ Commentary Page 6 - WOUNDS AND DAMAGE

Q: Some abilities refer to a unit ‘suffering’ a wound, while others refer to models or units ‘inflicting’ a wound – do such abilities apply to wounds that are saved, negated, healed or ignored?

A: No. In the Warhammer Age of Sigmar rules, the term ‘suffered’ or ‘inflicted’ refers to a wound that is allocated to a model and has not been negated or healed.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

[Fluttershy]

A Wound or Mortal Wound is suffered at the moment the unit/model takes damage - looses a "hitpoint".

 

Your example:

You allocate Mortal Wound(s) to a unit/model then your Ability kicks in.

Core Rules Page 7 - Allocating Wounds

Some abilities allow you to make a roll to negate a wound or mortal wound allocated to a model; in this case the roll is made for each individual wound or mortal wound as it is allocated to the model in question. If the wound or mortal wound is negated it has no effect on the model.

If the mortal wound(s) isn't negated by your Ability the unit suffers a mortal wound(s). This mortal wound(s) inflicts damage = number of mortal wound(s).

Core Rules Page 7 - Mortal Wounds

[..] the damage inflicted on the target is equal to the number of mortal wounds that were suffered [..]

 

suffered = inflicted damage on the unit - if the damage (wound) is negated by an Ability the model hasn't suffered a wound - no damage no suffered

 

hope that explains suffered and is understandable, i'm really tired atm

[relic456]

23 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

hope that explains suffered and is understandable, i'm really tired atm

I appreciate you taking your time to respond! Let's see...

23 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

If the mortal wound(s) isn't negated by your Ability the unit suffers a mortal wound(s). 

But doesn't the suffering a mortal wound happen before Deathless Spirits negates it?  The wound has to be suffered before it's allocated and therefore before Deathless Spirits is triggered no?

23 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

suffered = inflicted damage on the unit - if the damage (wound) is negated by an Ability the model hasn't suffered a wound

I agree that suffer and inflicted seem to mean the same thing, but I get brought back to my point above.  The model had to have suffered a wound first, so that the wound could be allocated, and then potentially negated.  Or is it such that negating a wound sort of makes the game "backtrack" and retcon that it even happened in the first place?  Even though it had to have happened for the ability to trigger?

[King Taloren]

Curse of Year from Archaon does the same thing. You only get to keep rolling as long as you hit the target number and the unit targeted continues to suffer mortal wounds. For each wound saved is a dice lost on top of the ones that failed.

Most of GWs phrasing around Suffering wound/taking damage  is that it only counts if the wound is not saved or ignored in any way.

[Fluttershy]

suffer the pain.. if the wound is negated the unit doesn't feel the pain.. there is no suffering, because the wound has been negated.

to suffer a wound, that wound has to inflict damage to the unit, no damage no suffering

[relic456]

15 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Curse of Year from Archaon does the same thing. You only get to keep rolling as long as you hit the target number and the unit targeted continues to suffer mortal wounds. For each wound saved is a dice lost on top of the ones that failed.

Interesting comparison, I didn't think to check the Arkhan FAQ in this case.  It seems to support my thought that abilities that negate wounds actually retcon the game state so that those wounds were never even suffered in the first place.  My thinking was it would be "Okay I suffered 1 wound, I allocated 1 wound to my model, but I negated that 1 wound and therefore no wounds are allocated.  But, 1 wound was still suffered in the the sequence of events."  It seems like what you guys are saying is that what actually happens is "Okay I suffered 1 wound, I allocated 1 wound to my model, but I negated that 1 wound so now we rewrite the sequence of events as 'I suffered 0 wounds, I allocated 0 wounds'".  That's kinda silly and I'll pass along my feedback but I appreciate both of your responses.

 

10 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

suffer the pain.. if the wound is negated the unit doesn't feel the pain.. there is no suffering, because the wound has been negated.

to suffer a wound, that wound has to inflict damage to the unit, no damage no suffering

While I appreciate this from a narrative/fluff perspective, I think that when it comes to the rules, suffer/inflict/allocate have specific meanings that don't align with how they're used outside of the game. 

[King Taloren]

It’s a hit odd, a way to look at it is that Mortal wounds are seeking for a rl comparison as a fatal blow. In this case the blow hits but (divine intervention, luck, coincidence, karma) happens and it’s not as fatal as it should have been and didn’t affect the fighters ability to continue on in the battle.