For how long can you keep your armylist secret?

[gronnelg]

Does the rules say anything about when you have to reveal your armylist? What is typical at tournaments? 

[Dead Scribe]

At tournaments you reveal your army list before the game begins.  I have never seen any one keep something on their army list secret.  That almost seems like cheating to me except that there are no official rules for when you reveal your armylist one way or the other.

[SwampHeart]

There are no official rules on it (that I am aware of at least) that said at every tournament I've ever been to you reveal your list before the start of a game. You both exchange lists (that's why tournaments require you to bring multiple copies of your list) at the table.  If my opponent wasn't willing to do this or attempted to hide things from me in his list I would 100% call a judge immediately. 

[Kramer]

See the above answers, but can I ask why?

[King Taloren]

You have to tell The TO your list before you begin anyways. And it is considered good sportsmanship to tell your opponents what you have and point out anything that they might not necessarily know if they have rarely played against your faction or it has a newer battletome.

If you are trying not to tell anyone you know what you are bringing so they don’t build a hard counter list  you can wait until the day of the tournament to reveal it. Nothing stopping you from hiding outside of if the TO wants the lists early. He’s be the only one who has to know.

[PJetski]

A "hidden list" format could be fun 

[SwampHeart]

Just now, PJetski said:

A "hidden list" format could be fun 

I do agree with this - I do miss playing WHFB with intentionally hidden items and unit upgrades. 

[Kramer]

Just now, PJetski said:

A "hidden list" format could be fun 

Very Very true! Added to that idea, I have this idea floating around. (probably saw/read it somewhere but can't remember where and if). Where you place a cardboard wall in the middle of the battlefield. You set up in secret and reveal after the roll of for first turn. Add a hidden list to that and make sure you opponent can't see you take stuff out and you could have a right cool start to a game! 

[SwampHeart]

5 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Where you place a cardboard wall in the middle of the battlefield.

We played a similar game to this (narrative style) where each player just placed down markers (ala the way GSC works in 40k) that represented an unknown unit. It was a blast - probably not what I'd go with for a tournament (especially with how important actual individual model placement can be) but for narrative or fun games between friends its awesome.  

[Kramer]

16 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

We played a similar game to this (narrative style) where each player just placed down markers (ala the way GSC works in 40k) that represented an unknown unit. It was a blast - probably not what I'd go with for a tournament (especially with how important actual individual model placement can be) but for narrative or fun games between friends its awesome.  

Nice! How does Gcs work? I don’t play 40k so don’t know the acronym nor do I have the sources to look it up. 

[King Taloren]

3 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Nice! How does Gcs work? I don’t play 40k so don’t know the acronym nor do I have the sources to look it up. 

Genestealer Cults.

They have rules now that instead of deploying their army on the field they instead use markers for every unit in the game (and sometimes a few more) and at the start of the first turn the player then deploys all his units where he wants replacing the markers.

[Hebroseph]

32 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Very Very true! Added to that idea, I have this idea floating around. (probably saw/read it somewhere but can't remember where and if). Where you place a cardboard wall in the middle of the battlefield. You set up in secret and reveal after the roll of for first turn. Add a hidden list to that and make sure you opponent can't see you take stuff out and you could have a right cool start to a game! 

As somebody who's on the top end of the 6 foot spectrum, this doesn't really work for all player heights. The cardboard board would have to be quite tall to keep me from seeing over it. 

 

[Kramer]

2 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Genestealer Cults.

They have rules now that instead of deploying their army on the field they instead use markers for every unit in the game (and sometimes a few more) and at the start of the first turn the player then deploys all his units where he wants replacing the markers.

Oh nice! Thanks I’ll see if I can find the rulesbook to borrow somewhere. Might be a good scenario twist for a skirmish campaign I’m planning. 👍

[Kramer]

Just now, Hebroseph said:

As somebody who's on the top end of the 6 foot spectrum, this doesn't really work for all player heights. The cardboard board would have to be quite tall to keep me from seeing over it. 

 

Haha duly noted! I’ll keep the player length in mind if I do put in the next campaign as a twist 😅

[Overread]

It depends on the context of the game as to what gets revealed when.

 

In general you are not expected to know anything in advance of deployment, except for the race/faction you are going to play against (and in a tournament you won't even know that). At deployment you'd be expected to have locked in your army list so that you can show your opponent what's in it and deploy onto the table. There's no secrets at this stage save the ones that the rules allow for; which is mostly relating to things like Assassin type units that can "hide" within another unit. You still have to declare the unit is part of your army, just not what unit they are in (you are required to write it down on paper before the game and to have that paper with you to reveal so that you can't just change your mind part way through the game - the battletomes typically note this on the warscrolls). 

For a tournament many require pre-registration of army lists before the event for the TO to review. Your opponents won't know the lists, but the TO will for review purposes to help ensure fair play and that mistakes don't slip through the net. 

 

Otherwise its what you and your opponent agree to. You can agree to share all long before teh day and to allow free changing of army lists (counter building - remember that if one does it the other can too); you can agree to keep it all secret until deployment; etc... There's a wealth of choices and no right answer save that you and your opponent agree to it prior to the match.

 

 

Typically I'd expect, in a pick up game, to know the army type I'm facing (Stormcast, Skaven etc....). I'd also expect people to bring either one generalist or one adaptive list that can tailor slightly to a specific foe (eg the army list you'd take against stormcast would possibly differ to one you'd take against skaven). However I'd not expect to know every unit my opponent takes. 

 

 

Note - at the local level if you always use the "same army" and composition your opponents will know it in advance. As a result they can counter you more easily even by accident when they build their lists. 

[gronnelg]

3 hours ago, Kramer said:

See the above answers, but can I ask why?

Me and my regular playing partner talked about switching it up a bit. Some games with knowing the lost in advance (but revealing the list simultaneously, so there's be not counter list building), and then some times with hidden lists. 

We also takes about how knowing the list in advance could particularly weaken hidden units, such as fanatics. 

[amysrevenge]

There are a number of ways you can have fun with this.  The most "fair" Matched Play style would be to write lists entirely in secret, even down to faction choices, then reveal to each other after lists are locked but before the match begins.  But a fun Narrative way to play is to write your lists openly together, making suggestions to each other and coming up with two lists jointly.  And another fun way to play would be as described above - secret lists, even down to faction choice, secret/hidden deployment, neither side knows squat about the other until the start of Battle Round 1.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Does the rules say anything about when you have to reveal your armylist? What is typical at tournaments? 

 

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

See the above answers, but can I ask why?

 

I can't pretend to know the full extent of why this is the generally accepted way of doing things, but there are a few clear reasons:

1. It reduces the likelihood of needing to interrupt the game in order to review rules. By exchanging lists at the beginning, players can identify likely questions and have an opportunity to discuss the fundamentals of how their armies and abilities function. This generally leads to a smoother and more enjoyable play experience.

2. It reduces "gotcha!" moments and encourages sportsmanship. If things are hidden, then players are encouraged to obfuscate what their units do in order to surprise their opponent. When players fall for this kind of trickery it generally feels crappy, particularly for newer players. There are so many factions and supplements in Age of Sigmar, expecting players to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every possible permutation is rather unreasonable, particularly at the local level of competition. Hidden information also creates problems around how to handle situations when opponents ask questions about what your units do. While a solid set of rules can be created to handle these situations, it almost certainly incentivizes players to give as little information as the rules allow, or to present information in a deliberately deceptive way that nevertheless fits with the letter of the rules. Needless to say this has a deleterious effect on sportsmanship.

3. It helps ensure that players start the game on equal footing. Over the course of the tournament, players are likely to overhear information from other games.  What happens if your opponent happened to hear from a friend what your list is, but you didn't get the same information about your opponent? In a game like Magic, where hidden information is a big part of the competitive environment, professional level teams are heavily encouraged to share information between rounds and even have non-participants wander the room gathering information. I don't think this kind of approach fits with the culture of the hobby very well.

4. You'd still need to present your list to the TO to ensure that you are playing a legal list and aren't changing things from round to round. Presenting the list to opponents as well reduces the burden on the TO, and it also reduces opportunities for shenanigans. While this might not be likely at the GT level, the idea of a TO sharing information with friends (either maliciously or just "accidentally" through casual conversation) is a real risk. I know many of you would be shocked at the idea of a TO helping tip the scales in this manner, but I assure you there are many FLGS where this kind of unprofessional behavior is relatively commonplace. 

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

 

 

I can't pretend to know the full extent of why this is the generally accepted way of doing things, but there are a few clear reasons:

1. It reduces the likelihood of needing to interrupt the game in order to review rules. By exchanging lists at the beginning, players can identify likely questions and have an opportunity to discuss the fundamentals of how their armies and abilities function. This generally leads to a smoother and more enjoyable play experience.

2. It reduces "gotcha!" moments and encourages sportsmanship. If things are hidden, then players are encouraged to obfuscate what their units do in order to surprise their opponent. When players fall for this kind of trickery it generally feels crappy, particularly for newer players. There are so many factions and supplements in Age of Sigmar, expecting players to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every possible permutation is rather unreasonable, particularly at the local level of competition. Hidden information also creates problems around how to handle situations when opponents ask questions about what your units do. While a solid set of rules can be created to handle these situations, it almost certainly incentivizes players to give as little information as the rules allow, or to present information in a deliberately deceptive way that nevertheless fits with the letter of the rules. Needless to say this has a deleterious effect on sportsmanship.

3. It helps ensure that players start the game on equal footing. Over the course of the tournament, players are likely to overhear information from other games.  What happens if your opponent happened to hear from a friend what your list is, but you didn't get the same information about your opponent? In a game like Magic, where hidden information is a big part of the competitive environment, professional level teams are heavily encouraged to share information between rounds and even have non-participants wander the room gathering information. I don't think this kind of approach fits with the culture of the hobby very well.

4. You'd still need to present your list to the TO to ensure that you are playing a legal list and aren't changing things from round to round. Presenting the list to opponents as well reduces the burden on the TO, and it also reduces opportunities for shenanigans. While this might not be likely at the GT level, the idea of a TO sharing information with friends (either maliciously or just "accidentally" through casual conversation) is a real risk. I know many of you would be shocked at the idea of a TO helping tip the scales in this manner, but I assure you there are many FLGS where this kind of unprofessional behavior is relatively commonplace. 

Haha wasn’t asking why in general I was asking why the op asked the question but thanks for the effort 

[swarmofseals]

2 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Haha wasn’t asking why in general I was asking why the op asked the question but thanks for the effort 

lol, yeah i wasn't quite sure given your post count, but i figured maybe the OP was curious too.

[Kramer]

31 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

lol, yeah i wasn't quite sure given your post count, but i figured maybe the OP was curious too.

Haha never assume saying a lot is a sign of knowing a lot  

[Sleboda]

5 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

At tournaments you reveal your army list before the game begins.  I have never seen any one keep something on their army list secret.  That almost seems like cheating to me except that there are no official rules for when you reveal your armylist one way or the other.

Interesting.

In all my years of going to tournaments, it's been rare that exchanging of lists prior to the game had been required. If exchange timing has been specified, it's after the game - precisely so that hidden info remains hidden (for example, which units contained fanatics or assassins in WFB). 

Usually you are required to exchange lists, and usually timing is not specified.

I normally try to lead by example and if my opponent hands me their list at the start of the game, I place it face down and say something to them about how I don't want to spoil the surprises or know things my army wouldn't know.

It just seems absurd that my army would know which magic items your army has and who is carrying them.

[Overread]

12 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

It just seems absurd that my army would know which magic items your army has and who is carrying them.

Yes and no - armies would have spies and spyglasses and scrying stones and stuff. So they'd have an idea what your opponent was using. Plus Warhammer is, by and large, an open information game. Barring a few very select examples, all the details of your army are available to your opponent and vis versa.

It's a means by which one simulates experience on the part of the games general and intelligence and loads of other bits. It also helps reduce casual cheating by having opponents read your list and being aware of its content. It also becomes part of choice making - if they know you've got a specific artifact on a specific unit then they can treat that unit differently to how they otherwise might treat it without said artifact. 

[Sleboda]

5 minutes ago, Overread said:

Barring a few very select examples, all the details of your army are available to your opponent and vis versa.

According to ... what, exactly?

Also, while I can appreciate the narrative behind spying techniques, it's still just that - a story to justify a view, not a rule. Plus, I can equally spin a tale that your spies were killed or given false information, or that I have some sort of water-based ability to fog your mind to the point where you don't even know my army exists at all, let alone which items it has (oh, hey, now there's an idea).

[SwampHeart]

20 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

*Snip*

This is a WHFB mentality and doesn't really carry over to AoS. WHFB had specific conventions about hidden items/units and had magic items that revealed hidden items to boot. In AoS most hidden things are declared at deployment (fanatics for example) and lists are (at every major I've attended) exchanged at the start of the game (and you also have what like 2 magic items at most?). The simple fact of the matter is I don't trust that you have just the right spell at just the right time or that all of a sudden now that you've taken a MW you've got a MW save. Fantasy had a different etiquette than AoS does - a lot of majors have list reviews before the event these days to discuss possible match ups and the like.